dsteele

Okay -- sometimes we hit "submit your message" too quickly. I just did that. If the Cub Scout in question is the only one in the pack to show up in improper uniform, I think the proper way for the concerned Cubmaster to handle it is to have a quiet conversation with the parents about the expectations of the pack and ways to help the kid get into uniform. If, however, the problem involves multiple youth and adults in the unit, I still applaud Twocubdad's solution. DS

In the example given, a leader threatened to show up at a meeting dressed just as the Scout who was out of uniform was dressed. Rather than criticise the individual, I gave credit to the person that they would accept the idea that a better way to encourage boys to wear the uniform properly is to do as Twocubdad suggested -- show up and have a uniform inspection while wearing clothing improperly, with badges in the wrong place, etc. This does not point at one Cub Scout or mimic undesirable behavior. I'm agreeing with Twocubdad. We teach boys behavior and values through a variety of messages -- including our own behavior. I think Twocubdad's example is a good, positive way to teach that there is a proper way to wear the uniform. Singling out an individual Cub Scout for having his shoes untied, etc. and uniform violations is not the way it should be done, but I don't believe the person who posted that was serious. In fact, I think they (I haven't looked up who it was and won't because I honestly believe he/she didn't intend to do that) was looking for advice to get the kids in the pack to follow uniform rules. I admit I'm guilty sometimes of giving the benefit of the doubt too freely, but I'm not about to change. I find that giving the benefit of the doubt not only swings both ways, but people step up to the plate. The person you quoted said they were thinking about showing up dressed up like the offending cub scout. What twocudad and I are talking about is showing up with general uniform violations and pointing them out. In the first instance, the Cub Scout will feel like he was "offending" the BSA -- and therefore is singled out. In the second, everyone in the group will realize that proper uniform is important and will feel like part of a group -- which is one of the intents of having a uniform in the first place. DS

Yes. I have a couple for you, but I'm headed off to a Camping Committee meeting and will post them late this evening. It's about . . . I'll be back. DS

That's alright, Twocubdad. There's plenty of time for you to do it again Let's pray he never embarrasses you. I don't know why, but I do draw a laugh when I hear about kids being embarrassed by their parents. Your story reminded me of a time when I was able to help a fun-loving Dad (whom I didn't know) turn the tables on his cub aged son who was trying to embarass the "old man." The father had taken his son to the barber shop so they could both get hair cuts. The father was in his late 30's and had a long forehead, if ya catch my meaning. I was in the middle chair and the father was to my side. The kid had already got his hair cut and father and son were talking across the room. The kid said, "Dad, this won't take long, you don't have much hair!" and then laughed. I looked at the kid and said, "Laugh it up, buddy-boy! In 30 years that's how long a hair cut will take for you!" the dad thought it was pretty funny. The kid didn't get it. I still have a full head of hair and so does my dad -- but I was laughing at the kid and not the dad. Unh . . . I guess you had to be there. DS

Fog -- fun post. Actually helps the point I'm trying to make that professional development is a key in a professional scouter's development in their career. I have heard all kinds of crazy theories about what professionals need to know and where they learn it and do like opportunities to edcuate people about all aspects of Scouting. Yes, I have the professional circle. Scout Executive presented it to me in 1993. If I ever get around to writing my approved thesis "Care and Feeding of your District Chairman," I'll have the professional fellowship award. Bob White -- please don't tell the professionals that the other guys FOG and yourself mentioned get raises instead of knots. They think only those who attend Professional Development Level III get pay raises I still only have Matua as a taker on what it takes for a DE to wear the "trained" patch. DS

Twocubdad -- Ya done good! If you transfer to my council, let me know. As a reward, I'll pay the buck fee for ya! DS

I agree as well that the Scoutmaster can not be forced by the CC or anyone else to sign his/her name as approval for anything. The CC is one of the people that approves leaders and he, therefore, can dismiss -- he can be trumped by the chartered organization rep because that's who approves the CC position. However, I don't think that "fire everybody" is a good answer. No, you can't shoot the boy's parents, either. I agree that this is where the problem lies. The parents need an education like the one the boy is receiving -- Boy Scouts isn't about badges. Badges are a tool we use to educate a young man. I'm proud of this Scout for agreeing with the Scoutmaster that he needs more time to develop his leadership. Man I think that the Scout knowing that is a bigger part of what we're trying to do than the date that will be entered on his Eagle application for earning the rank of Star. In some ways, I think flunking my board of review for Second Class when I was a kid was one of my best lessons. It was hard at the time, but I learned from it and still made Eagle . . . a bit before the deadline. Okay, way before the deadline, but that starts long threads, so I won't go there. DS

My values are somewhat different than my parents. Of course there are striking similarities, but my values are indeed different. I'm not talking about views -- the way we see things and our political and other opinions -- those are different than values, although there's usually a value at the base of the view. I also think that the biggest and most re-curring arguments are those that occur as a symptom of conflicting values that are widely held. I'm thinking of the abortion arguments and the BSA standards of membership. I also think personal values shift in importance over time and change, even within ourselves based on new experiences. If 18 year old David J. Steele were to meet 38 year old Dave Steele, we would have a pretty good argument over some values that have changed over the years. 18 year old David J. Steele wouldn't have taken kindly to people calling him Dave just as Dave takes mild offfense when someone knowingly calls him David. DS

Bobwhite is correct. It started out as a National Good Turn in the late '80's and proved to be very difficult to coordinate. I remember really having to hustle to get the youth, food and unit participation count to National Sunday night to the Chief Scout Executive could make a report on the Today show Monday morning. After it stopped being a National Good Turn, many council continued and continue to do an annual food drive and the Scouting for Food name is still widely used. And, yes, your unit can do it on your own. DS Twocubdad -- yes, national uses the buck to offset other expenses that keep the national council afloat. Dave

Yes, professionals can wear the trained patch once they complete basic training. My bonus point question is, does anyone know what it takes for a professional to complete basic training. Matua, nice stab with the black and white knot called the professional circle. Close, but not quite. A professional wearing one of those has been basic trained for a while. Just because someone out there might be curious, here are the qualifications for the professional circle: "1. Be a currently emmployed professional Scouter and have completed all phases of Basic Training by the Professional Development Division. 2. Professional tenure of at least four years. 3. Completion of any three of the following advanced courses: a. People Management -- Part I b. People Management -- Part II c. People Management -- Part III d. Wood Badge or National Camping School (management section,) NOTE: must be taken during the professional tenure period. e. any BSA course (s) including but not limited to, those offered through the Professional Development Division, Finance Division, or Philmont Training Center. Each course must consist of at least 15 classroom hours. f. One non-BSA course that is job-related, consisting of at least 15 classroom hours, taken during professional tenure. NOTES: -- All courses must be taken during professional tenure. -- Courses that do not qualify include, but are not limited to: area, regional or national conferences, direct service workshops (except whee they exceed 15 hours), council in-service training, or training intended primarily for youth or volunteers (other than those listed above.) 4. Certification by current scout executive. 5. Certification by the Center for Professoinal Development." Its not an easy knot. DS

I'm there now. So is someone else, if I can get their attention. Dave

Have to give points to Bob White, Eamonn and FOG for remembering the metallic threads. Those were cool patches. I also have to admit that I don't remember them applying to the Cubmaster position. I don't think they did. Now here's the mega-point bonus question -- at what point in his/her career can a District Executive begin to wear the trained patch? Get it right and you'll get cyber-stars. I'll stop this line of questioning when I see the correct answer. Hints will be provided on request, but will cost points DS

Bob, Ed, caution tape surrounding. This is a good thread led by a good question and inspiring good discussion. Let's not scare off folk who are just trying to get information after hours, during hours, or at their own leisure who are hoping to get and give the best program available for their youth through methods alternate to Scouting manuals. In other words . . . kindly knock it off is my respectful request to you. Thanks, guys. Feel free to continue debate, but please try to not worry about who said what but what was said. Dave

A phone call to your council service center should do the trick. Call and ask for the registrar. State your name, your troop and your position and ask her where the Scout's primary registration is. A quick search of Scoutnet records will tell you. Dave Steele

Unless you wear your Wood Badge beads on your sleeve (which I don't recommend to my friends,) I believe NJ is correct. I've never heard or read anything to the contrary. DS

I just checked National's web site on the Jamboree with the same thought as Hops. This kid will definately be eligible to go and I think he should. He'll remember plenty from the Jamboree, although probably different things than he would if he went as a 16 year old. He may even want to go to two Jamborees as a Scout and will be much more capable of earning his own way the second time around. (No, I haven't heard anything about a Jamboree in 2009 or 2010.) I had an opportunity to attend the 1981 National Jamboree when my father was an Assistant Scoutmaster with the contingent and my 12 year old brother was going. I chose to stay at home and work on camp staff. I don't regret the camp staff experience, but I know now that I missed out. In 1997, at the ripe old age of 31, I served on a regional staff at the National Jamboree. I'm glad I did that, but really wish I had taken advantage of the Jamboree experience as a Scout. What a great time! You're also correct in that odds are against him that he'll be interested in attending when he's 16 -- there are a lot more 12 year old Boy Scouts than 16 year-olds at the Jamboree, although there are a lot of older Scouts there. DS

Bob: I say this with a smile -- I knew that sooner or later the two of us would post nearly simultaneously with the same answer from two different references. I'm kind of surprised it took this long. Bob and I are not involved in a conspiracy to tout the BSA manuals verbatim -- it just kind of happened. Is that weird or what? Dave

I was chuckling when I wrote about Scout Executives complaining about not being able to keep the transfer fee in their council. Actually, the transfer fee is a registration fee. Councils can not charge a fee for membership, only the corporation can do that. If the council kept the transfer fee or were allowed to keep the transfer fee it would be a violation of corporate by-laws. registration fees are a primary source of income for the national council which does no fund-raisers like local councils do. This is to prevent a council from deciding that they could drop FOS, popcorn, United Way, special events, etc. by simply charging each family a hundred bucks to join. Believe it or not a fee of $1.00 is enough to stop folks from switching units every time they get cheesed off at the Scoutmaster or committee, but small enough that it doesn't really prohibit anyone from transferring. The transfer fee has been $1.00 for at least 15 years now. It probably doesn't cost a buck to actually do the transfer into the computer at the council office. As to the cost of processing being more than $1.00, not really. It's done through electronic fund transfers and not hand addressed envelopes physically mailed to Texas one at a time. (That's an exaggeration for the sake of fun . ) DS

Here's what the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual has to say about Scoutmaster Conferences and Boards of Review. This is a cut and paste job: "Scoutmaster Conferences One of the most enjoyable experiences of being a Scoutmaster is the opportunity for a Scout and his leader to sit down and visit together. In large troops, Scoutmasters occasionally assign this responsibility to assistant Scoutmasters or members of the troop committee; but this is unfortunate, because most Scoutmasters feel that this is truly the opportunity to get to know the Scout and help him chart his course in life. A good conference should be unhurried. It helps the Scout evaluate his accomplishments and set new goals with his Scoutmaster. This can be accomplished at a troop meeting, camping trip, or in the Scout's home. Goal setting by the Scout makes it possible for the Scoutmaster to help the Scout with his weaknesses and encourage him to use his strengths. The Scout (joining) conference is probably one of the most important associations the Scout will have in his Scouting career. It is at this conference that the Scoutmaster illustrates to him the adult-youth relationship that is unique to Scouting. All through the ranks, it is rewarding for the Scoutmaster to observe the Scout grow in responsibility and maturity. It is through this association and example that a young man grows and matures, and the Scoutmaster conference accomplishes that aim. (See Scoutmaster Handbook, chapter 10.)" Below is some of what the book has to say about Boards of Review. The book is for sale in most council Scout Shops and can be ordered if needed. "Boards of Review A periodic review of the progress of a Scout is vital in the evaluation of the effectiveness of the Scouting program in the unit. The unit committee can judge how well the Scout being reviewed is benefiting from the program. The unit leader can measure the effectiveness of his or her leadership. The Scout can sense that he is, or is not, advancing properly and can be encouraged to make the most of his Scouting experience. Not only is it important to review those Scouts who have learned and been tested for a rank, but also to review those Scouts who have shown no progress in their advancement over the past few months. The members of the board of review should have the following objectives in mind when they conduct the review. To make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank. To see how good an experience the Scout is having in the unit. To encourage the Scout to progress further. The review is not an examination; the board does not retest the candidate. Rather, the board should attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting's ideals. The board should make sure that good standards have been met in all phases of the Scout's life. A discussion of the Scout Oath and Scout Law is in keeping with the purpose of the review, to make sure that the candidate recognizes and understands the value of Scouting in his home, unit, school, and community. The decision of all boards of review is arrived at through discussion and must be unanimous. When a boy satisfactorily completes his board of review for a rank or an Eagle Palm, tenure for his next rank or Eagle Palm begins immediately." I'm interested in seeing this discussion of the differences. DS

Does this Scout show up on your troop's roster and recharter paperwork? Have advancement reports your unit submits to the council had this Scout's advancement duly recorded? If the answers are yes, he'll be okay. If the answers are no, then there could be trouble if someone choses to make an issue out of it. DS

Call your Scout office and secure the number of the council headquarters where the boy spends his summer. Call the appropriate DE in that council and have him help you by getting you the name of Scoutmaster's of troops near the boy's father's home. Then call that Scoutmaster, or have your Scoutmaster call, and see if they'll recognize the boy's achievements in your troop and inform you of his achievements during the time he spends with that troop. Keep all records with your troop and report his advancement on the forms you submit to your council. This will avoid confusion in the future and keep his membership with your troop while he participates year round in the program. DS

I'm there. For a limited time. It's been a while. DS

Overtrained is correct. I do have to admit I get a kick out of watching some Scout Executives talk about the $1.00 transfer fee. Many Scout Executives want to keep the dollar because, unlike 15 years ago, the transfer is entered electronically and locally by the council registrat. The Scout Executives think we should be able to keep the dollar -- but, alas, it goes to Texas just like registration and Boy's Life fees. DS

Eamonn, excellent post. Let me cycle back to packsaddle's questions. Your council should have an organizational chart that shows the professional staff and who reports to whom. In another thread, some time ago, I listed each title in the BSA profession and defined what it meant. The organizational structure of the professional staff varies by council. District Executive is an entry-level position. They report to someone on your council's professional staff. All councils have a Scout Executive position. The Scout Executive is the Executive Director of the Council. In the council I currently serve, I report directly to the Scout Executive and the DE's report directly to me. In the council I came from a year ago, the Scout Executive had three positions that reported directly to him: Finance Director, Program Director, and myself, the Field Director. All DE's reported directly to me. The selection of council executive board members is through the same nominating committee process used by districts. About 90 dayss prior to the council annual meeting, a nominating committee is formed. The nominating committee is normally 3-6 people appointed by the council president. They will select and recruit for the executive board. At the council annual meeting, officers and board members are elected. Voting members consist of current Executive Committee Members (volunteers), current Executive Board members, Regional Board members residing in the council, and chartered organization representative. Board members can also be added during the year by a voice vote of the executive board and often are. I hope this helps. Dave

Bob white is not only correct, he is giving you knowledge significantly beyond what most volunteers know. My usual handicap is now becomming a disabiilty, so I can post no further this evening. Thakns, Bob. Keep up the good work. DS