dsteele

FloridaScout -- I don't know if my words will make this important Board of Review easier or harder. However, whether or not they make it easier (I hope so) or harder (I hope not) does not change my advice. You will walk in the door to the board of review already and Eagle Scout or already not an Eagle Scout. Let me explain that -- either you have learned the Scouting values or you have not. I can tell from your posts that you indeed have, and if I were a voting member of the Board of Review, you would receive my vote. Go into the room as an Eagle Scout -- not overly confident, but not in fear. Face and answer the questions squarely and as honestly as you can. Don't be cocky, don't be fearful, just be an Eagle Scout. At the end, they may ask if you have any questions for them or any comment. At that point, make your case for their approval -- something along the lines of, this is what I've learned on the path to Eagle Scout, this is what I value, and this is why I feel I've earned the rank of Eagle. Leave politely when they ask you to, so they can discuss how impressed they are by you and your behavior. Congratulations. You've already earned the award and are only waiting for the first of the next three approvals -- the Board of Review, where you are present, the Scout Executive's signature (where you'r not present, but the records will be in order, and the National Court of Honor, where the data will also be checked. Don't let this multi-tiered approval freak you out. Once you're approved by the board of review, the rest is smooth sailing. DS

It's an awesome project and it carries my highest endorsement. I don't konw much about it, but it was on the national news tonight. If there are ways we can help out, I'd sure like to hear about them. Perhaps someone will sign up to play Amazing Grace on the bagpipes when this old professional goes to meet his Maker. DS

There are different interpretations of when a tour permit is needed. I was trained that a unit needs to file one whenever it leaves its current meeting place. The council I currently serves requires a tour permit even when the unit is attending a district/council event at a council camp. The direct policy is printed on the Tour Permit and is found in the G2SS. I don't have either in front of me, so I won't attempt to quote them. DS

A couple of things: Veterans Day was observed, in my neck of the woods, today. This does not change my feelings toward veterans. Trail Day -- Hops didn't miss you. He's got your back. Thanks for your service in the U.S. Navy. Hops, my desire to be in the U.S. Army does not in any way even come close to veteran status. They served and I did not. Our thanks should go to those that serve. And who are yet to serve . . . Hops, I also applaud your intention to become a member of the United States armed forces. It is an honorable thing you seek to do. I'm a proud long-term member of the BSA -- but not a veteran. There is a BSA veteran Award and I've got a 25 year pin (almost 30) truth be told, but that's a lot different and a far cry from being a Veteran of the US of A. DS God Bless our veterans, regardless of the day!

Where are your jeans assembled? Assembly is the sewing together part. It takes far more time. At $20.00 I would wager that they are not assembled in the US of A. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps your tag doesn't say where they are assembled. If not, call the company and ask. DS

All hail to Le Voyageur and others of his kind! Thank you for your service. I admire you very much and my appreciation is too little, too late, but very heart-felt. Thank you. I have some phone calls to make. It seems to make the veterans feel good when someone calls to thank them. Without you, and your service I can not imagine what this country would be like. Please let me know if there is some service I may provide for you in any way. Dave

Well, what can I say, I'm not much of a Presbyterian. And, actually, I would have called you. In fact, I couldn't find enough information in your profile, or I would have called you to tell you that you do make a difference. I ain't afraid to use a telephone. Back to work for all of us. DS

To the Veterans on these forums -- whether Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Merchant Marine, or any other who have fought or served to protect the citizens of the United Sates or any other country. Please accept my Scout Salute and sincere thank you for your service. I bow to you and humbly thank you for protecting me, my family, my country. Today is the day we honor you, but I have to tell you that your service is appreciated every day. We just don't say so enough. I once had lunch with a valued volunteer (whom I'm about to call.) I mentioned that I'd been working hard and that I hadn't been home with my wife for a while, he said, "I'd feel sorry for you, but I was a P.O.W. in Vietnam for 8 years and had no contact with my wife all that time." During the time that he was locked in a cell in the hell they call Vietnam, I was earning my Bobcat Badge. I earned the rank of Eagle while he was locked away from his wife, his country and his home. An entire lifetime (of learning experience) was had while he ate rice with bugs in it. We owe the veterans so much. Call every one you can think of and say, "thank you." They sacrificed so much for so many. It doesn't matter what they are veterans of. They served us and we owe them our gratitude. Let's give it to them. A special salute to the veterans. THANK YOU! On behalf of Dave and Tanya Steele, the Boy Scouts of America, and a grateful United States of America, I thank you, the Veteran! DS

Okay, so one of my flaws is that I take things at face value, and that's exactly how I'm going to take andrewcanoe's question. The uniforms are expensive because they are completely made in America and by Union Labor. That is one of the conditions insisted upon by labor, and the national council of the Boy Scouts of America. If you look at most of the clothing labels in your closet, you'll see something along the lines of "Made in America, Assembled in China, Mexico, etc." on many of the labels. In fact, many garmets are made of American fibers woven into cloth here and sewn together in countries where the hourly wage is significantly lower than that paid in the U.S. The BSA insists that all uniform parts are made and assembled here on our soil by our union workers. I've made it no secret that I'm a Republican, but I am proud to wear a uniform made by hard-working union members totally within the United States of America -- even if it costs me a few bucks more than one made overseas. That's what you get when you buy a uniform from national supply. An American made, union made, uniform. Grouse about the price if you want, grouse about the pockets, or the elastic waist. I have nothing to do with it, but I do like the fact that it is American made by American labor. American hands on American goods. I've probably over-used the word American in this post, but we are the Boy Scouts of America. The BS of A. Without the "A" we'd just be . . . DS

The 1970's Handbook -- the one with the green cover, that I grew up with had several box-type quotes about what was almost in there. By that I mean, BP's thoughts on stuff. BP thought about adding a 13th Point to the Scout Law -- a Scout is not a fool. He decided, according to the handbook, that that particular law was unnessecary given the other 12 were true. I think he also took into consideration that all the other 12 points are positive values and that being "not" a fool was playing "not to lose." I think that there's a difference between playing to win, and the avoidance of losing. I play to win. Some people play so they don't lose. Not losing doesn't mean you win . . . it just means you don't lose. 12 points, easy to remember but hard to live up to is enough for me. I am not a good enough man to try to come up with a 13th. I think the 12 have it covered: Integrity, Honor, dignity, Humanity, Godliness -- it's covered. A Scout IS . . . On my Honor . . . Do we really need anything else? Yeah -- our wives (spouses) DS

I'll field the questions (as re-itereated one-by-one.) They are: So, to repharse the questions "1. What should be said about District/Council events coming first and the fact that the District/Troop leader said that the troop is there to support the District. 2. The troop going without "approval" from the committee 3. The adult leaders who are worried about the outcome of tonight's Committee Meeting because of comments made by the District/Troop Leader and our COR, his mother. " 1 -- The Troop does not exist to support the district. The district/council exist to support the troop. If the event supports the troop (most do) the event should be considered. Yes, units/troops do help the district, there's nothing wrong with that, but the bottom line is that question -- is the troop better off by it's participation than without it? 2 -- A tour permit is required for the troop outing. That tour permit must be signed by the tour leader and by a member of the troop committee. It does require committee approval, regardless of the vote of the PLC. I'm as much on the side of the PLC as any guy -- I think it's the troop committee's job to make possible what the boys decide they want. However, if the boys end up convincing a committee member to sign a tour permit against the wishes of the troop committee, that signer (committee member) needs to understand that they are taking on the liability for that trip. My advice is to get the committee behind you or listen to what it (collectively) says. 3) The committee members who are worried about tonights meeting are not your concern, Hotdesk. They'll have to work out their distance. If they follow Scoutlike behavior -- as I fully expect they will -- they'll be courteous, kind, and let you know the result, but not the details, of their discussion. DS

Laurie -- thank you for your kind words. I like to think I'm a nice guy, but I'm also the guy who seems to get stuck saying "no." when a rule has been or is about to be broken. I take the Scout Oath and Law very seriously. In fact, when I joined the Presbyterian Church, the pastor mentioned that I would have to agree to live by the Apostle's Creed. I told him I had no idea what the Apostle's Creed was, but if what he was about to make me agree to wasn't covered by the Scout Oath and Law that I wouldn't agree to it. The Scout Oath and Law do not specifically mention Jesus Christ, but they have no problem with him. I had no problem agreeing to the Apostle's Creed. FOG -- I agree. The Camping Director didn't go the extra mile. He went the mile. Can we agree that, in that case, to have called you and said, "Fat Old Guy, I just wanted you to know that because of our conversation, we're going to change XXXXX?" IMHO, that would have let you know that you do make a difference. DS

People act like the Rules and Regulations and the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America are like secret texts, the holy grail, the location of Atlantis, etc. Sorry, folks, that's not the case. It's more like asking for the chemical forumla of Flintstones Vitamins. They have a formula, it's important to the manufacturer, ya probably ought to know what's in it, but the fact is you're either going to take the vitamins or you're not. Most of us don't need or want to know the formula. In any case, below is word-for-word from the inside cover of both the rules and regs and bylaw books of the BSA. "HOW TO ORDER ADDITIONAL COPIES The publications listed below are no longer available from Supply Division. A distribution will be made to Scout Executives whenver there are enough changes to warrent a new printing. Councils may purchase additional copies for $1.50 each, which includes shipping and handling. Volunteers requesting copies of these publications must contact their local council which will forward their request and payment to: Boy Scouts of America (address). Make checks payable to Boy Scouts of America Account ####-####. 57-491 Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America 57-492 Rules and Regluatinos of the Boy Scouts of America." Just in case you're thinking you want to spend time reading these documents, let me give you a small taste of the contents. I have chosen this passage simply by opening the Rules and Regs and picking a paragraph. Actually, I'll pick an entire Clause. One which is near and dear to unit volunteers -- if this is exciting stuff to you, then you need a copy of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. Below is all of Article X. Program, Section 1, Clause 1 and 2. "Advancement Section 1. General Principles Clause 1. Education is the chief function of the Scouting movement and it shall be the basis of the advancement program. A fundamental principle of advancement shall be that the boy's progress is a natural outcome of his activities in his unit. The rank requirements in these phases of the Scouting program, as set forth in the official publications, shall furnish the basis of the activites of the unit. (a) In Cub Scouting, recognition is earned in the home and the neighborhood by passing certain achievements related to simple skills, habits, ideals, and hobbies. (b) In Boy Scouting, recognition is gained through leadership in the troop, attending and participating in its activites, living the ideals of Scouting, and proficiency in activities related to outdoor life, useful skills, and career exploration. © in Varsity Scoutinng, recognition is gained through leadership in the team, attending and participating in its activities, living the ideals of Varsity Scouting, and proficiency in activities related to outdoor life, useful skills, and career exploratino. (d) In Venturing, recognition takes on a wider scope, involving the assumption of adult-like roles, identification with adult careers, and participation in community and citizenship responsibilities. ADMINISTRATION Clause 2. All advancement procedures shall be administered under conditions which harmonize with the aims and purposes of the Boy Scouts of America." And then it gets boring. Here's another clause at random that might be of interest to the hard core BSA member. It pertains to Life Saving Awards: "Article X, Section 5 Clause 1. Lifesaving awards. Recognition may be given to a youth member or adult leader of the Boy Scouts of America where the evidence presented to the National Court of Honor, in accordance with prescribed regulations, shows that he or she saved or attempted to save life under circumstances which indicate heroism and risk to self. The court will give consideration to resourcefulness and to demonstrated skill in rescue methods. In no case shall recognition be given where it appears that the risk involved was merely in the performance of duty or the meeting of an obligation because of responsibility to supervise and give leadership to the persons whose lives were saved. The awards are:" What I'm trying to illustrate is that asking for the Rules and Regs and Bylaws is like asking your state for copies of all laws pertaining to driving because you're going to have to agree to them when you get your driver's license. Wouldn't you rather read the "rules of the road" pamphet that you need? If you want a copy of these documents, you now know how to get them. But why bore yourself. If you want to, I say go for it. I just don't think you need them. If they were secret, I certainly wouldn't have posted any of them on the web. DS (This message has been edited by dsteele)

If boys weren't boys and didn't need the help of Scouting, I'd be running a Tandy leather store or making saddles. The fact is, boys will be boys and it's our job (whether we're paid or not) to help them become men. Actually, they'll become men whether we help or not . . . it's the kind of man they're to become that requires our assistance. I'll be back in a moment to tell those who are committed to boring reading, exactly how to get a copy of the two documents -- Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, and it's corporate by-laws. DS

I think good advice has been given to slow down. However, if the boys are eligible to join a troop, they will do so whether we advise it or not. My question isn't so much, are the boys ready for Boy Scouting, but is Boy Scouting (the troop) ready for them? When I was a Scoutmaster, I picked up 18 Webelos in May. I had them for one camp-out and then nothing until summer camp. One of the fathers, my wife and myself took them to summer camp with only one older Scout there. Having been a 10.5 year old who crossed over into a troop in the late 70's, I thought I had a pretty good idea of what to expect. Nah. I was unprepared for the three screamers during the first night who heard a noice. Luckily they called out to the father they knew and not the Scoutmaster they barely knew. They were up at 4:30 in the morning (due to excitement) just like I was when I was there age -- but it had somehow become much more difficult for me to do. We made it through the week, but it sure would have been nice to have gotten those boys in December and had some time to train them before heading off to summer camp. DS

I was going to send this message privately to OutdoorThinker, but since someone said it's good to praise in public, I shall do so now. She said: "As an "adult" (so strange, because I am still a youth Venturer..at at times I am actually frightened at being a responsible adult) I am a Girl Scout leader, an ASM for my Boy Scout troop, a graduate of National Camping School in the Scoutcraft area, a trained LNT instructor and a merit badge counselor for nine merit badges. " I am deeply impressed. I've been impressed with you OT all along, but I like your attitude. It's okay to be a little frightened at being a responsible adult. Truth be told, I think we all are from time to time, but that's okay. I worry about the young adults who charge ahead without caution because of a birthday -- whether they're ready or not. Someone who plunges into adulthood without fear is not brave ... they are foolish. Those who accept responsibility and face a little fear are truly brave, and wise. Welcome to the world. DS

I'm glad I started this thread. Perhaps, when we finish kicking around the topic, you'll print it out and share it with your DE. We seem to be providing excellent advice to professionals who want to succeed. Eamonn wrote of the partnership between professionals and volunteers. Wise is the professional who recognizes that fact and works hard to be a true partner -- which means coming through when the volunteers need you and doing the unexpected -- like showing up to a 25th anniversary dinner or at least responding to an invitation. To answer Laurie's question -- I think it's always best to start with a volunteer. I'm not sure how your district is set up, but before going to the DE, I recommend going through the appropriate volunteer. For example, if you have a question about the camporee, call the event chairman or the district activities chairman. Advancement questions should go through the district advancement chairman. Popcorn questions should go to the district popcorn chairman. If those positions are vacant, call your District Chairman or District Commissioner. Their names and numbers are probably in your council newsletter. If you don't know who the appropriate volunteer is, then call the council and ask who that person is. The reasons I say you should call the appropriate volunteer are: 1) they volunteered for the job and want to do it, 2) if they don't have an answer for you, they can make one up and make it stick -- unless it's a BSA policy question, 3) The volunteer is specializing in the area you have questions in and is responsible for that particular function of the district. The DE is a generalist and may not have the answers to the questions you're asking. IF you had called me when I was a DE and asked, "What does each boy need to bring to the camporee?" I would have given you the phone number of the camporee chairman because I wouldn't have known the answer. If you have questions relating to BSA policy or can't find a volunteer who knows the answer to your question, then please call the DE and ask. I said earlier that I don' mind calls at home. I do mind being woken up. Our office is closed today in honor of Veterans' Day. I was asleep at 8:30 this morning when my phone rang. I answered and was greeted by the soothing trilling of a fax machine. So I got up and ran downstairs to turn on my fax machine. It rang. I picked up the handset and a woman wanted to add her wreath order (which I placed at 10:00 last night. She and I had discussed her late order a couple of months ago. Her problem was that her pack was planning to take orders at the church fair on Sunday. I told her she could call me at home, to tell me to turn on my fax machine, and then she could fax her order to me Sunday night. I had forgotten her name and figured I must have had her order last night. She had forgotten the Sunday night thing and figured she'd better call me first thing Monday morning. By the time I took her order and went back to bed, my alarm went off. I hate it when I'm awakened 10 minutes before my alarm goes off. It's robbery of the highest sort I have to admit I minded that call a bit . . . but I did take the order. I think I'm going to take a nap. I'm getting cranky. DS

Packsaddle: Thank you for the excellent advice. We will have a good trip. I do think, however, that most of my adventures will occur at night when my wife is asleep. She's a cautious one and I'm a fool-hardy man. I'll go for walks when she sleeps and will encounter what I encounter. My friends I knew in High School always said, Dave Steele is Dave Steele. Like it or not, he really doesn't care. Well, I do care, but if I want to wander in a back alley at midnight, that's where you'll find me. If I don't, you won't find me there. Sounds pretty simple to me. The double wallet thing -- been there before and will be there again. the other night, my wife (whom I love deeply) said, "I don't understand why a lazy man like you would want to stay in local hotels instead of a resort.) She was referring to our trip. She knows me. I am, however, not a lazy man. I'm a man in love with luxury and she's a woman who hikes the Appalachian Trail 2-3 weeks a year. She just doesn't know that sometimes I like to rough it and take my chances. Sometimes, for me, is once every 15 years or so. It is time. I'm tired of luxury. Midlife crisis? I don't know. Test in my maturity? I'll vote for that! Ta-da-da-ta-da! Charge! lemme at 'em! DS

Let me tackle these two questions in opposite order: "So my questions are 1) Should we have gone 2) Do District/Council Activities come first " Let me apologize in advance -- the two questions are definite hot buttons for me and I feel very strongly about the answers. Well . . . okay, the second question is actually the only Dsteele hot button. But it's a big one. I'll also say that I think Hotdesk made the right choice. So did his troop, and what I have to say has nothing to do about him. Ooooohhhh -- there's a charge building inside of me and it's got the energy of an 11 year old Boy Scout. Look out! Here it comes! "So my questions are 1) Should we have gone 2) Do District/Council Activities come first " The answer to 2) in my book is "absolutely, categorically, NO! Period. End of report." District and council activities exist, or should exist (realize I'm writing from the book of Steele supplemented by a lifetime experience with the program at an extremely accellerated rate and the benefit of having worked for 3 Scout Executives) to supplement unit program, not usurp it. In other words, your troop outing is more important than your attendance at the camporee. Boys learn best from their patrol leaders and senior patrol leader and troop leadership. The rubber hits the road at troop events, not district or council events. Don't get me wrong there is a place for district or council events -- when they can provide stuff a singe unit couldn't on their own, but they should be a supplement to unit program, not a substitute. I'm also not saying you should not attend district or council events, but I think you should help to make sure they're something special for the boys. I once served an inner-city district when I was a young district executive, and we (the volunteers and I) decided that we would put on a district activity once a month for the inner-city units so we could guarantee that they had a monthly activity. We quickly figured out that 1) it would be way too much work for us, but more importantly 2) that our role was to make those units strong enough to have their own outings once a month. We build units, not programs. We build leaders, not eaters of fish. (some will know that I reference the phrase of teaching a man to fish rather than giving him fish) Did the unit do "wrong" by not attending the Merit Badge Opp. day? Only if the PLC wanted to and the adults vetoed it. Please don't take this post to mean that I'm against district or council activities. I'm not. However, all have to pass my test against the aims and methods of the Boy Scouts of America. As well as answer the question, "How is this supporting unit program rather than detracting from it?" When the question is answered, my approval is given. Until then, "pbbbbblllltttt!" DS

Special thanks again, to Sctldr. However, I don't view my participation on these boards to be "extra mile" stuff. I enjoy it way too much. I consider each of you to be part of my extended family. Mostly because of the way you've welcomed me and (for the most part) have listened to what I have to say. I particularly value the few of you that I have had the opportunity to meet in person or discuss things by telephone. Laurie expressed the opinion that a professional scouter handing out his/her home phone number is "extra mile" stuff. I don't think so (no dis-respect to Laurie) professional scotuers have a right to a home life, but when you need one, you need one. I have never minded a call at home from a volunteer -- except for the ones that want to cuss at me and yell and scream. I've had my share of those. Those calls upset my wife too much. I'll take those calls at the office. I also am thinking of a volunteer who was the Cubmaster of a large, but renegade kind of pack, who would call me when he did his Scouting -- Sunday evenings. He was looking for his popcorn prizes (back in the day when we took them to roundtable, which his pack never attended.) He would tell me what he was looking for in prizes and I would write it on the back of my TV Guide. Come Monday Morning (trash day) my wife would take out the garbage and out would go the TV Guide. Come Monday morning, I couldn't remember what the guy wanted and he didn't get it. I finally told him not to call me during the movie of the week on Sunday, but to call me during business hours in the week. He called on a Monday afternoon and got what he wanted within the hour. It's okay to call your pro at home, but don't expect peak performance. I love this Scouting stuff. (I hope this doesn't offend Barry.) Dave

I do have to admit (although I try to have no ego, there is one there) that as a 14 year tenured professional and an Eagle Scout, I wasn't excited about being a "junior" forum member. At the same time, however, I recognized that I was new to the forum and did not know the players or the rules of ettiquette. The title of Junior, therefore, was what I deserved. Perhaps the wording could be changed to something like, "new member" which is there and is fine, "current member" rather than junior, and "we haven't shot him yet" rather than senior member That way I'll feel spared rather than old. DS

Thanks for the posts. I appreciate the feedback and plan to use it with at least the professional staff I work with to help them be better professionals. Let me also say that I think that beating anyone is poor management, whether it be a BSA supervisor beating a DE or a DE beating volunteers. As to Scoutleader's quote: "Beating harder the ones who are left is not smart. A DE once told me, "BSA is all about family values, but this is no job for a family man." He is actively looking for another career...at his wife's insistence." I agree that beating harder the ones who are left is not smart. Remember the phrase from the movie, "if you build it, they will come?" Well, turn it a bit and you get, "If you beat them, they will leave." BTW -- that applies to volunteers as well as professionals. I disagree, respectfully, with the DE that feels the profession is no job for a family man. He may be working for an unreasonable boss, but I doubt it. I've found that if I want a DE to survive for any length of time, I need to actively seek ways to help them make time for themselves and their families. The BSA is a great profession for a family man. If you have a sick kid and a wife that works, you can call your boss, tell him/her what's going on, and work from home for the day. I know professionals who leave the office at 3:00, go home and be with their kids until 6:00 or so and then go to the meeting. Got a weekend event? Take the kids with you. Odds are the volunteers will not only understand, but enjoy playing with the kids while you do your thing. Does the DE really need to go into the office for three hours on Sunday, or would a little bit of thinking ahead have prevented it? As to the beating of professionals . . . I believe that if you motivate properly, they will perform and they will stay. It's like my presence on these boards. I stay because I feel respected, valued, enjoyed, etc. You each contribute to that. No matter how much you've disagreed with me, I've never felt personally attacked, ignored, unwanted, etc. If that were to change, I'd be outta here. Anyway, keep the posts coming. I do appreciate them. Now I'm going offline for a while to prepare our council's wreath order. It's Sunday and if I'd have thought through the dates better when I placed them in the council calendar last May, I could have done this during the "working week" next week. But I didn't, and the vendors are expecting this council order by 9:00 PM this evening. It will probably take me at least 4 hours to prepare the order. Then I have to finish the council popcorn order. They're all due today. I don't blame the BSA or my profession for this Sunday work. I don't blame my boss. I don't blame my DE's. I don't blame any volunteer, including yourself. Who's fault is it? Mine. Mine alone. And, the fact is, I enjoy the work. DS

Eamonn: I forgot to tell you, but I'm printing off your response to the question at hand and will use it at my staff planning conference in January. The staff planning conference is the place and time when the staff (professiona staff) put together their plan for the coming year. I intend to use your post and anyone else's from this forum to show the DEs, myself and the scout executive, that general volunteer expectations are of us as professionals. Thanks to you and my thanks to anyone else who wishes to contribute to this thread. This isn't to Eamonn, but to everyone -- don't complain about professionals if you provide no input and leave us to our own devices. I hope that the information from this thread will help me train the people I hire and supervise to be the kind of profesional who meets -- actually exceeds YOUR expectations. Keep those cards and letters coming . . . DS

Excellent point, gentlemen (I've met you both in person, so I feel no hesitancy to address you with the honorific.) The BSA kills almost as many trees with its policies and manuals and flyers as any federal branch of the government. I don't like killing trees, but if you saw the amount of stuff on the BSA intranet for professionals, you'd thank your lucky stars that it doesn't all get printed on paper and shipped out. We might just beat the feds in their entirety in killing trees if it were. I see no need for troops to add rules to what the BSA (all of which is run by attorneys) publishes. DS

Eamonn, no offense taken at all. Indeed, I am honored to count you as a friend even though we've never met face-to-face and have never shaken hands (which is an important thing to both our cultures.) I started this thread first by putting on my bullet proof armor and fully expecting to have to pay for the sins of the Scouting profession. I have long held the view that volunteers have brains and that the more they know, the more they can help youth. I always found as a DE that if the district were behind in any given goal, that the volunteers would respond positively if given enough notice and I told them how missing the goal would effect them. It wasn't an "I need" statement. Who cares what I need? I'm an employee, nothing more. But if the district were to lose in membership, the quality of the program would suffer, camporee fees would increase due to less youth participating, etc. The Scouting movement does lot exist to support me, I exist to support it. Any professional who thinks that Scouting exists to support them should no longer exist as a profesional. I've fired more than one because of that kind of belief. Okay, so I admit to being hard core. I've been chided by more than one Scout Executive for dismissing candidates during an interview who have said in some variation that "this job might be fun to do for a while." My theory is that if you're not in the profession for the long haul, you're not in the profession at all. For some odd reason, I find it difficult to hire new professionals. But I'd rather take 4 months to fill a vacancy than fill one quickly and fill it again quickly and again quickly, etc., etc., etc. I also agree with Eamonn that professionals should work when the volunteers are available. I think some councils screw this up when they require the DE to be at the office at 8:00 AM every morning (whether they worked the night before or not) and stay until 5:00 PM and then go to their evening meeting as well as working weekends. My philosophy is that we work to get the job done. I have DE's that show up at the office at 10:30 in the morning, leave at 4:00 PM, work or go to meetings from 6:00 PM to 8:30 PM, come back to the office to return calls and work until 10:00 PM. I don't regulate their hours, or the Scout Executives, or mine. We do what we need to do to deliver the best program we can. Sometimes a DE will get tired or be having a bad day. They'll come to me and say, "I'm going home. I know it's only 2:00, but I've had enough for now. I have a meeting this evening and I want to be fresh for it." My usual reacion (having been there and done that) is "Why are you telling me? Get out of here. Get some rest and go to your meeting." No need to whip those who work hard to make the program better. I have to admit I get frustrated when I hear of councils with required work hours for the DE's. If I were required to be at my desk for the entire business day at the whopping salary of $30,000 and also required to attend evening meetings 2-5 nights a week, work weekends, and sometimes early mornings I'd check out pretty darn fast. There's only so much work that can come from any human being. Believe it or not, a DE is usually human. Not always, but most of the time. For the record . . . Eamonn is an excellent volunteer. He vents on occasion (by his own admission) but his venting is always for the good of the movement. I vent sometimes, too. I just don't do it here unless it's polite. I hope. DS