dsteele

FOG -- Please research other topics I have posted under council relations. I have addressed council size and the number of councils in each category. I'll recap it here for the casual reader. There are 7 council classifications based on total available youth, number of professionals, number of registered youth (traditional Cub Scout, Boy/Varsity Scout, Venturer) total youth served (the above + learning for life) council budget, population, and a few other categories. There are 7 classifications of councils based on the above: (smallest to largest) 800, 700, 600, 500, 400, 300, 200. The classification of the Scout Executive is assigned by the classification of the council. An 800 council may have 1 - 3 professionals (sometimes it's only a Scout Executive doing everything) I'm so independant, I wouldn't be either disappointed or surprised to get one of those councils to serve. A 200 may have as many as 35 professionals. Size varies. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. A 600 is considered a mid-sized council. I was in two 600s before I came to this one which is a 700. I have to admit that I'm used to having sufficient # of secreatries that I never had to label and take to the post office the council newsletter until I came here. Here, even the Scout Executive has been known to past labels on the council newsletter to get it out in time. If I get an 800 council to serve, it wouldn't surprise me if I had to type the newsletter myself and lick the stamps to go on it. I'd do it with a smile just for the opportunity to be a Scout Executive for the kids. That's just the way it is. DS

I am (I believe) qualified to be a member of the Sons of the American Revolution. Family history (vocal) has demonstrated this. About 10 years ago, I requested an application. There was no DNA test required or even offered. But that was 10 years ago. FOG may be correct that they are requiring a similar test today. It wouldn't surprise me. The requirements (I'm a bit fuzzy on the details after 10 years) were that you had to prove your relationship to an existing family member who was a member of the Sons of the American Revolution or the Daughters of the American Revolution (DAR) with your birth certicate, their birth certificate and/or a family bible. If no one in your family had been a member of either organization, you needed as many records as possible, including hadn-written records in a family bible and other hard-to-find and rarely kept records proving your ancestry to a veteran. I wasn't really interested in being in the SAR, I just wanted my descendants to be able to have the option and to save them the research back to 1775-17?? by requiring them to only have to search as far as my birth in 1965. My grandmother cautioned me with several bad words about both groups. She was proud of our heritage, as am I, but felt both the SAR and DAR were full of snobs and we weren't that type. We still aren't. I hope. I am proud of my heritage and relationships to our founding fathers and will share them with you. If you're not interested, go ahead and move on to the next thread. If you are, you may find some weird stuff below: I am a direct descendandt of Corporal Benjamin Griggs who served with G. Washington at Valley Forge. I am a great (many great times) nephew to Ethan Allen. Aaron Burr was an ancestor on my mother's side. I've met with some of his direct descendants. Not a popular figure in this nation's history, but a figure none-the-less. I feel akin to Uncle Aaron in that I can see the wisdom of letting the other guy take the first shot in a duel so your shot will count when his pistol is empty. A brief moment of fear inspired by a panicked individual and clean up by a clear-headed guy. I'm a nice guy, but I aim to win. I have a purse upstairs in my china cabinet. The label on the box it sits in is very old. It says something along the lines of given to my mother by Mary Todd Lincoln. Okay, so the thread has gone astray from United Way issues. I freely admit that. But I do thank you for the opportunity to allow me to reflect on what this country and its history mean to me. To me, the United Way can do what it will. The Sons/ Daughters of the American Revolution as an organization can do what it wants to do. The Boy Scouts of America can do what it wants to do. (I'm speaking in terms of membership.) My job with my family is to make sure that each new member learns, without embellishment by family, their family history. They will do with it what they will, but I will do my duty to explain to them some of the colorful characters who have had an impact in our nation, no matter how small. Sad to say I am not one of those characters. DS

What is this fascination with age? It came up all over the place while doling out popcorn today. And now I read it here. I won't give my date of birth on the internet. Having had my identity stolen once, I don't give out D.O.B (specific) and Social Security number in any sort of non-required format. Having said that, I realize that calling myself an "old professional" may have led some to believe I'm older than I am. I am also a 29 year veteran of the BSA. I'm turning 38 next month. Lord, I used to think that 30 was old. Had a hard time with my 29th birthday. I have a young mother and young father. I remember both of their 30th birthdays. My father's dad died of a heart attack when he was 38 -- just a few months before I was born. My wife says that old is 10 years older than you are. I think it's extended beyond that. Nowadays (us old timers get to say that as one word) when someone dies in their 70's we say, "he was relatively young." I'll be interested to see the other responses in this thread. DS

I apologize for the above post from me. I have a lot of respect for Bob White and have never found him to be wrong in his reporting of Scouting policies. I hope my previous post did not read that way. I understand that I am relatively new to these forums and that Bob White has been around a lot longer and posted many more times than I have. It's natural that people will ask him a question about something in a scouting manual and forget that there's a professional who is dedicated to be here who can also help. I enjoy helping to provide insight into policy and sometimes philosophy and feel I've got a bit to offer. I'm not in this for career advancement, competition, etc. I'm in this for many of the same reasons you're involved in the scouting program -- it makes me feel good to do something good for scouters on my own time and just because I want to. Please, take advantage of me. DS

This message has been edited by DSteele. Go ahead and ask Bob if there's anything official. I wish to point out that while most BSA official publications are readily available, sometimes for the cost of printing and sometimes free, to all volunteers, they are all available to professionals for free. When you've got one hanging around who answers questions on a regular basis, why not ask him? Am I wrong that often -- when asked for an official source? I'm sorry -- I'm a bit on edge from having my Scout Executive question plans that were laid before him months ago and enacted upon by me and the fact that he doesn't seem to be able to admit (after seeing the smooth reality) that his concerns were not only answered, but invalid to begin with. He has caused more stress in my running of the council popcorn and wreath sale this fall than anyone else combined in the council. At any rate, the question was left to Bob and I'll let him answer it. No offense to Adiranvs or to Bob. None taken by you guys from me. I'm tired and have to be at the popcorn warehouse in six hours. If you need my help, just ask. DS

NJ is correct. Applications are sometimes submitted to the council service center with no position, but the Scoutnet System will not allow the registration to be entered without someone assigning it a position. There are positions for member at large (which sounds like someone is in need of a rope) but these are district and council positions and must be approved. Registrations for committee positions go in as CR (charter rep), CC (committee chair) or MC (member of committee.) Okay, I gotta go. Third Watch is on and I don't like to miss it. Also, after a long day of slinging popcorn to units, I'm tired. I have to finish the job at 7:30 AM tomorrow (Saturday) and wrap up with the book keeper on Sunday morning. I'll talk with you guys later. Dave

Proud Eagle: I'll address the last paragraph in your post by saying that I think you have an older version of the book. Current thinking is that you wear the color of the position of your primary (paid) position. That way folk don't have to change loops depending on the meeting they're attending or the function they're currently doing. The OA may appear to be cloudy, but I'll try to clarify it. The Order of the Arrow has the same administrative grouping as the Boy Scouts of America. Youth holders of national and section positions are part of the national council (which includes Regions and Sections) Council Lodge officers are members of the council structure and chapter officers are part of the district structure. They are entitled to wear silver shoulder tabs Your Lodge Chief may be a member of the council camping committee, but odds are that he is also a youth member of the Council Executive Board -- and that's why the silver shoulder tabs. Here is the BSA and OA comparison/translation BSA OA National Council National OA (subset of BSA) Region (admin subset of National) Region (subset of BSA Region) Area (a district of the region) Section Council (subset of Area) Lodge District Chapter So there ya go. DS

I can only offer opinion and base knowledge as to the difference between Committee Members (the correct BSA code is MC) which is because in the Boy Scouts of America, CM is the code for Cubmaster. The requirement for having a minimum of two committee members, in my opinion (having started more than 50 new units in my career) is to make sure that there is enough support for the unit to be a viable unit. That's also why you need at least 5 boys to charter. I can also tell you that the BSA uses the word "Assistant" meaning support to the second title. In other words, my job as Assistant Scout Executive is to assist the Scout Executive however he sees fit (within the rules, of course.) Under that description, the job of an Assistant Scoutmaster is to support the Scoutmaster's job of developing the boys into leaders. This does not make the Scoutmaster all powerful, I believe any good Assistant should make suggestions to the guy/gal on the line. It would apply similarly to the job of Assistant Patrol leader -- his job is to support the patrol leader in building the patrol. The committee members more closely resemble members of the council executive board (which also must exist in order for the council to get a charter.) The executive board of a council (and the troop committee) exist to support and supervise the activities and programs of the council or unit respectively. I think that Assistant Scoutmasters can be present at boards of review, in support of the Scoutmaster. Like the Scoutmaster, they have no vote. I think the reason is that they're too close to the boy and take pride in any achievement he may achieved. In short, they're more biased than committee members. I also know that this line becomes blurred at times, especially if you have a very active committee (which is a good thing to have.) Those are my thoughts. DS

FOG: Thanks for the compliment. Yes, professionals are exected to participate in FOS campaigns, but usually the level of giving is determined by the giving professional staff member. I'll admit that mine is on the high end, but it's something I want to do. Yes, we are a small council, but not the smallest in size. We're a class 700, and have 3 entry-level D.E. positions, my class 5 Assistant Scout Executive position, and a Scout Executive. We also have a Learning for Life Executive (entry level) that is currently vacant -- the duties of that position are currently being filled (and not very well) by me. If we had more money in the bank, we would fill the position immediately. But we don't have the money, so it will be at least January 1 before we fill that position. Advisor Jim -- I knew you were kidding, but there are a lot of people out there who are serious when they make those comments that it touched a nerve. I apologize for "going off." I applaud Volunteer Advisor Jim for his willingness to promote the great program of Venturing. That's how it's going to grow. DS

Advisor Jim said: "What I would consider the extra mile is if the professional scouters contributed 100% of thier wage to FOS. Now that would be an extra mile. LOL" That would be the extra mile for professionals, Jim. But I don't find it funny at all. You and I live within 15 miles of each other, and, if you're ever in Racine, do give me a call. I'd like to meet you and we can have a nice talk about Scouting -- just as we do on these forums, but in person. What I'm about to say isn't directed to you. Not really. I'm still mad at the volunteer who was running a National Camp School program about 12 years ago. He was chatting with me in line for registration and was about my age and very friendly. Then he saw my left shoulder and relized I was a DE. This was in the program director section for Boy Scout Camp. At the end of the week, after he'd had a beer, he suggested that professionals are little more than (he used a different word) ladies of the evening to do for money what the volunteers do for free. Your joke suggests I should donate 100% of my salary to the BSA. Do you work for free? Should you donate 100% of your salary back to your employer? I agree that professionals should set the lead in giving to FOS. That's why, since 1988 I have given to the council FOS. In 1992, when I made a whopping 24,000 a year, I gave $1,000 bucks to the council in the form of payroll deduction. I increased it every year until my personal contribution reached a high of $3,750 in 2001. Changes in personal situations have lowered it again to $1,500 this year. Some councils do have Executives in charge of Venturing, but not many. In my example, you see that only about 2% of council membership is Venturing. The DE's are the ones with the contacts (from the professional side) to make Venturing grow. But I can tell you, as can Bob White and many others on these forums, the volunteers are what makes it go. The De's are there to supply the volunteers with guidance and materials that they need. We do the minor day-to-day stuff, but the overall picture is a partnership. I like you, Advisor Jim. I'm not in any way angry with you. It's just a hot button of mine when people suggest I should work for free, when I'm putting in long hours each week and earning not a lot of money and expected to give a chunk of it back. Believe it or not, I have turned down raises (actually portions of raises offered) because of the effort I know it takes on the part of volunteers to raise those funds) and have taken a more than 20% pay cut just to stay in the profession I love. What's left, I'm going to keep. DS

Actually, it goes like this: Cub Scout program -- blue Boy Scout program -- red Varsity Scouts in stand-alone units -- Orange Venturer program -- Green Council/district positions -- silver Regional (an arm of the national council)/National -- Gold. Camp Inspectors and the other positions mentioned in this thread are unclear whether they are council people doing national jobs or national people who spend most of their time with the local council -- so it could be either silver or gold on their shoulder. I do remember for a while as a DE that the uniform regs required us to wear the color tab of whatever program we happened to be working on. So for the district Pinewood Derby, I should wear blue, for the Camporee, red, etc. Luckily that reg went away in a short period of time. I'll stick to the silver -- forever. Although the gold looks nice, I'm a silver kind of guy. DS

Mentally awake -- what does it mean? This question is very timely to me. I seem to run into people quite often who are and aren't mentally awake. Questions to determine (in my opinion) whether someoen is mentally awake . . . I mean above the obvious freedom from drug use, etc. Are they mentally awake. To me, a mentally awake person is aware of his/her surroundings, the signs of the feelings of other people around them, aware of what's going on in the news . . . in other words, they're paying attention to the world. When my boss (or anyone else) asks me the same question three days in a row and get the same answer, but doesn't remember ever asking it or doesn't remember the answer, I have to say he's not mentally awake. Considering my boss's position, I have to say I find that a little disconcerting. Interesting quesiton. I'll look forward to reading the answers of others. DS

Eamonn: I can easily feel and hear the sadness of your post. You did the best you can and I have little comfort for you. The past lives on forever, while the future is continuously in doubt. However, without the past, the future can never be. Let the good memories of your experiences in Scouting continue and keep hope that the future will sort itself out. I remember the sadness of hearing that my troop in Kalamazoo, MI had folded. It was Troop 234. I was depressed when I heard that it's 50 years of tenure (when I was a kid) had ended and that the troop was no more. Then, one day, while working at a regional event called "Return of Akela" a kind of Regional Pow Wow -- I was parking cars. A pick-up truck pulled up and the driver rolled down his window so I could tell him where to park. He wore a Southwest Michigan Council strip on his shoulder, the numbers 234, and a Scoutmaster patch. I said, "I used to be a member of Troop 234 in Kalamaazoo." He looked at my position patch and shoulder strip and said, "You're Dave Steele!" I was stunned -- but very happy that the troop had come back to life. Hang on to the hope, Eaomann! Dave

I agree that more attention should be paid to the Venturing program. One reason is that it's a terrific program for High School aged youth. A second reason is it's a huge growth market. However, Proud Eagle also brings up an excellent point. There's only so much work any of us can do. As to the attention paid to other programs, let me share some current membership numbers from the council I currently serve. We're a small council, so the numbers may be very much lower than your council, but the percentages are pretty much the same across the country. Our council as of 11/13/2003 5:51 PM had 4,639 registered youth. This youth membership consists of: 3,223 Cub Scout aged boys -- 69% 1211 Boy Scouts/Varsity Scouts -- 26% 205 Venturers -- 4% Unfortunately, it's tougher to get Venturers to join, although we're getting better at it. I have to remind people that we've only had 5 years of practice at growin Venturing (as a movement) I also mean the new Venturing -- it existed in a different form in the 50's. We've been growing Cub Scouts for over 50 years -- and the young ones are pretty easy to recruit and program for. We've been growing Boy Scouts for 90+ years and it's our first program that we're all pretty proud of and best known for, even though they're harder to recruit than Cub Scouts. I applaud those who make sure Venturing stays in the forefront, even if they have to be vocal about it. Back when Cub Scouting started, the "old timers" were against it and many people didn't understand it. Now it's our largest program. Keep on truckin' (as they used to say back in the day.) DS

Adrianvs -- Actually we have been sued over the girl issue as well. Many times, but not as vocally as the other issues. For shorthand, we say "the three G's." Girls God Gays DS

Eamonn: When I read your response, I laughed out loud -- right away! I'm proud to be an American. I've had my tongue sanitized as well. It didn't take. Oh well, what works for some doesn't work for all. My brother seems to be doing alright. Thank you for asking. I talked to him yesterday. I'll steer him away from vacume cleaners. As an extra precaution, although I understand that my appendix is doing it's nonexistant job just fine, I'll stay away from those nasty machines myself. Although someday, remind me to tell you the story of how my wife convinced me that spending money on a Kirby was acceptable. DS

"My son has 16,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Legos." I hear they're easy to stack Some of us don't have any children at all, but we're old kids at heart. DS

That has to be the most fair and even-handed article of its type that I have seen. I don't agree with the United Way, but at least the article simply stated both positions and in a factual manner. Personally, I think when United Way funding falls to 5% of the council's budget or less, it becomes more of a pain to follow United Way rules -- fundraising blackout during their campaign, suppling scout volunteers and professionals to U.W. campaign kickoff and event flag ceremonies, etc. than it's worth. Capital Area Council will have to work a little harder after 2005 to raise it's revenue, but will do so with less restrictions. The United Way will learn that the silent majority is much more supportive of the BSA than the loud minority DS

Eamonn: When I saw the title of this thread, I thought, "what an interesting choice of words for a title," and read it. It shouldn't have surprised me that it came from you. However, in an appeal to your unique British sense of humor (never tell an Englishman a joke on Saturday, he'll break up the sermon on Sunday when he gets it,) I have to ask -- why not sanitize your own tongue when you're worried about the cleanliness of the cook's hands. The germs will die on your tongue when it's sanitized and in the food when it's cooked. That's a double safety, my-brother DS PS -- just because it's on my mind and speaking of "my brother" he had an emergency appendectomy Tuesday night that didn't go well. They couldn't wake him after the surgery and had to inject him with a medicine that killed his pain-killers. Fluid had filled his lungs. He sicked it all up and is okay, but it took another 1/2 hour for the medicine (pain killers) to sink back in. Poor Kid. I felt for his wife and son who were worried about "Daddy." It's still hard to think of him as a father (he's six years my junior,) but Paul is all grown up and there's not much I can do for him anymore. I've always gotten along with my brother and love him dearly. Sorry . . . just spitting out what's on my mind. Dave Eamonn -- I know I've questioned some of your terminology, so I anticapte your questioning of mine -- "My brother" is a high compliment. DS

I fall somewhere in the middle of this (Sorry, Dan, I'll let others comment on your post) debate about rules. I believe that the basis of any rule used in Scouting be the Scout Oath and Law. I also believe, however, that words like should, may, no and yes, do have their place in Scouting. Like a wise volunteer once said to me, "the books have a paper cover, they're made to bend a little bit." I said a little bit, and I mean in some cases. Not all. Don't jump down my throat, but English is a subtle language and synonyms are do not always mean the same thing. For instance, "should" and "don't" have subtly different meanings -- or to some of us, not so subtle. To give specific examples, when I was a Scoutmaster, our troop had an aversion to personal electronic devices being used on outings. A lot of that aversion came from me. I didn't tell the Scout he couldn't have it, I told him he didn't need it and I would hold it in my car for him until the outing was over. I felt it was up to the PLC and the committee and myself to make sure the outing stayed interesting enough that the Scout never missed his walkman, gameboy, whatever. If the kid didn't want to give it up, he was invited to stay home. That never happened. Of course, I had my own vice -- I really needed an hour or so after everyone else had gone to bed to read a book by the fire or somewhere else by myself, just to quiet my mind. However, the book didn't bleep and the light didn't bother anyone. I had no problem with a Scout who wanted to read for a while . . . but I had a problem with Nintendo, or whatever the current equivalent is. Maybe there truly is a difference between a guideline and a rule and that's what's got this thread going. In my opinion, a troop by-law against electronics or personal electronics could become a real problem when you get a Scout who needs hearing aids -- which are also personal electronic devices. Now you have a hard-and-fast-rule, written by the troop that has to be bent (to the parents who believe their son has a God given right to the gameboy) when a little extra work explaining "Courteous" would have done and would have no need to be bent. DS

Mr. Wizard is here . . . or at least as it's possible to come. building a bridge across a creek at the council camp is not an Eagle project. Doing so does nothing to benefit scouting in the community, but only to benefit the scouting community. I would argue that the requirement allows an Eagle Scout to start a Boy Scout Troop as a service project to the community. It does not operate on council property and the community is benefitted by having another community organization using the scouting program to benefit it's youth. However, although I'm a bit of a Scouting buff (full-time for 15 years) I am not an advancement chairman for the unit, district, or the council. The call belongs to those who must sign off on the application. DS

captainron14 asked his question: "Please settle a argument. Can a young man use his position in his church young mens group as leadership towards Eagle? I am not refering to a Troop or Team position. Both my Council & District say no. The other side says his District and Council say yes. Who is right? " Captainron's friend may be teasing him a bit. I think the answer, as so many have said is "no." Unless, however, the "church young mens group" IS a troop/team/crew. This is quite often the case in the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints. Other churches can and may use the Scouting program as their church group and the friend could have simply not mentioned that the youth group he refers to is a troop. Other than that, the answer to the question would be No. DS

Most printers of any size can print the bags for you. You could also type up a flyer to stuff inside bags donated by a local groccery store (the manager may like the idea of using it as advertising.) This is different than seeking corporate donations (which is a different ball of wax.) There may be a set up charge for the printing and I would suggest, if you can find a way, to plan the printing to last multiple years. This is to get the quantities you're ordering high enough to get the price per bag to around 2 cents or less a piece. Do me a favor, however. No matter how windy the day may be, do not allow the Scouts to put bags in people's mail boxes. The United States Postal Service expects to collect postage on anything in those boxes. Mail boxes do not belong to the homeowner, they are considered federal property. I've found that the feds have very little in the way of a sense of humor when it comes to using federal property. DS

If the culprits are ever caught, please send them to my office for a little "attitude adjustment." It won't happen again. I would go further, but the act has me so darned mad that I can't articulate my anger well enough. How dare they use their protest of war to stop the honoring of those who sacrifice the most and stand the most to lose? I don't understand and would have a few questions to ask of them in the session in my office. DS

Thanks, Hops and FOG for giving me credit for wanting to go to the United States Military Academy at West Point. I was not accepted and have not served a single day for my country -- and I don't place BSA service in the same boat. No one has ever fired a shot in anger at me (at least not one that came close) in my line of duty and I am in no way a veteran of the defense of this country. I had shots fired over my head in Peru, but that's a different story of a young man in the wrong place at the wrong time. Anywho, I echo my thanks to the veterans. Ever since I had lunch with a volunteer that Dancin' Fox and I both know (he made such a deep impression on me and I don't think he knows it) I have had a very, very deep appreciation for the efforts to protect our freedom that veterans have gone through. The volunteer and I were meeting at a Wendy's restaurant (I'm a restaurant snob -- believe it or not) but this volunteer was hungry. He literally licked at each scrap of food and the condiments. I picked at my baked potato with broccoli and cheese and left most of it. I have a very small appetite. I said something about wanting to get home because I hadn't seen much of my wife. He looked at me and said, "I'd feel sorry for ya, but I was a POW in Vietnam for 8 years without seeing my wife." Eight years with no contact with his wife and family. They didn't know if he were dead and he didn't know if they were still waiting for him. I thought I had problems to worry about. Whether or not the district would make membership, what to buy for Christmas, which family to visit for Christmas, year end goals, when to get another oil change or teeth cleaning -- the normal stuff. This guy had 8 years as a prisoner of war. That's just one veteran. What about those who are overseas now with no idea when they'll be home or if they'll come home? What about the Vietnam veteran who never received the proper respect for their service? The Gulf War (I) veteran who is ill and doesn't have a full explanation? The Korean Veteran who saw atrocities unknown to his father the WWII veteran? Veterans go back a long way in my family. My grandfather's side of the family landed on the shores of the East Coast in 1691. Corporal Benjamin Griggs, one of my ancestors, served the full time at Valley Forge, PA. I salute all veterans of all services. As a small service to veterans, I do have a list of known veterans (known to me, anyway. I call them on either veteran's day or memorial day, just to say "thank you for your service. If you are a veteran, please private message me with your phone number and look for a call in May or November. I'll call. Unless/ until I lose your number, then feel free to call me. The message will be the same and it will be sincere. Dave