dsteele

I have several thoughts on this one and many will surprise some folk. First of all, I try to remember and remind volunteers, to look at things from the youth side. So let's ask our youth members who might possibly have to do what you suggest what they think. How about it Hops? When I was a young Scout (yeah, I'm one of those 13 year old Eagle Scout guys) in the district I was part of, boards of review for Star, Life and Eagle were done at the district level. No troop leader was present. You went in, alone, into a group of old men with lots of knots on their chest, zippers on their pants that seemed 43 miles long to cover their bellies, and, in addition to the stress of the aforementioned, had the added fear that one of the buttons on their strained uniform shirts was going to pop off and put your eye out! No stress there?! Eagle Boards of Review were done at the council level . . . with the added fun of having the Program Director (Egads! A professional Scouter?!) present. I remember telling my Dad (as he dropped me off in the parking lot of the vaunted SCOUT OFFICE) that I was nervous because Mr. Johnson (the professional) was going to be there. Dad said, "Charlie? He's like an old shoe, son. Don't worry about him." I said, "That old shoe decides whether I'm an Eagle or not." At the time, I thought the professionals had all the power. Boy was I wrong. My point is, in the rush to get clear details of the project prior to approval, don't forget to look at it from the side of the Scout on the other side of the table. I'm not saying that we should make it easy on the Scout to earn the rank, but we don't need to add discomfort to stress. The other thing I'm thinking is that 1) I think the writing skills of many young people are poor at best. I can see why an advancement committee would like to ask questions and get an oral response. However, how are we going to build writing skills if we say "just tell me?" If the committee has questions, bounce the workbook back to the candidate or call him and ask him. I prefer the former, but the latter is okay as well. Remember, what adults see as an inquiry, the Scout may see as an inquisition. Alright, I'm ready now. Fire away. I'm off to a council commissioner meeting -- we'll be shot at there as well, I suppose. DS

This is a response I'll ask you to read carefully, because if you skim this one, you're going to get the wrong idea. Ready to read? Slowly . . . Bob White is correct in that the Commissioner's Field Book does say that commissioners must not be unit leaders and should dedicate themselves first and foremost to commissioner service. I agree. However, it is not specifically banned by registration regulations and Scoutnet will accept more than one district position/commissioner, etc. for unit leaders and committee members. I wish everyone would follow the Commissioner Fieldbook, but sometimes reality and rules have to meet and a way has to be found. Sometimes, the BSA digs in its heels. We all know that. A Cubmaster can not register as a Den leader within the same unit. Do some Cubmasters take over the leadership of their son's den? Sure. It happens, we know it happens, but he/she can't register that way. Different topic: Proud Eagle asked if someone can be registered in multiple councils. The answer is yes. DS

Ahhh . . . The light comes on. If you look at the name of the thread "dsteele? Do you have a POC for Great Trails, MA?" You'll give me an opportunity to help at least one small area where communication between professionals and volunteers get mixed up. Volunteers identify councils by their name and state. Professionals identify councils by their headquarters city and state. I looked at my list of councils for the one located in Great Trails, MA. There ain't one. Dalton, MA, however, is on the list. I'm glad the other guys were able to help you. I'll try to remember to look at the council name column for future contacts in my answers to you. DS

Joni: No, actually, I don't have a point of contact for Great Trails, MA. Either the council headquarters have moved, or the council has been merged. Sorry I can't help. Try the netroster on this board and click on the state of Mass. Maybe the map can help you. Dave

Mike: First rule of Wood Badge (said with a grin) is always listen to an Eagle. I am one as well. In every way I can be (I hope.) Take Wood Badge now. Assuming you have had your basic training as mentioned, now is the time to get the bigger picture that wood badge gives. Working your ticket (that you write yourself to put the lessons of the course into living practice) will help you become the awesome leader you want to be. Besides, it's fun and very rewarding. If you haven't already, buy a red wool BSA jacket -- and you can't quit until it wears out -- in about 25 years. By then you'll want a new one. DS

I'm not a builder (of bricks and stone) and most of what I have to say has been said before, but what the heck? I'll say it anyway. I learned about exploding rocks on one of my first camp outs as a new Boy Scout. We were camping on Scout property that was mostly Lake Michigan shoreline. One of our Assistant Scoutmasters stayed up after we had all gone to bed and was putting wood on a fire when a rock blew up and put little pieces of shrapnel in his shoulder and scratched his face. In the morning (he didn't have to go to the emergency room, the Scoutmaster treated him -- this was a long time ago) he explained that a small rock was in the fire and that it was from the beach. There was water in the rock, he explained, and when the energy of the water boiling in the rock reached a certain point, it got out -- quickly. After that, we became very careful about what kind of rocks we used for the old "bean hole beans" (I mentioned those in a previous post a while ago) and the chicken in a backpack. We also didn't do fire on concrete or cinderblock. A bunch of us also took geology and firemanship merit badge -- we didn't want to get "blowed up." DS PS -- I'm glad there were no injuries.

There is also a page in the uniform and insignia guide, avalable through your Scout Shop, that shows each knot and expains what they're for and who may wear them. Did you know it is possible to put them on upside down? There's a right way and a wrong way, but don't ask me which it is. I'd have to look it up. If someone gives you a hard time for earing one upside down, you'll know you're talking to a true uniform policeman. DS

Andrew canoe: I would suggest "candidate" as a term for one who has completed the Wood Badge syllabus, but not the ticket. Others may use other terms. As to the latin jokes -- they're really only funny if explained. I have to admit that I'm not Catholic and that my one semester of latin in 9th grade has faded a bit, but I can help with the semper ubi sub ubi . . . Semper = always ubi = where sub = under ubi = where Now forget about grammer and read down the right hand column. Non illigitemi carborundum. (not aimed at anyone in particular.) Caveat Emptor. DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

I'll enhance what my friend Bob is saying regarding the issuance of charters to local organizations. The council's charter from the national organization gives it the authority to grant charters. The charters are an endorsement to use the BSA program, but all approval comes from the local council following the guidelines of the national organization. The local council is the "front line" of the national organization (bad analogy, but it works.) If a council refuses to maintain BSA standards in granting charters, the council is in danger of losing its charter with the national council and with it, it's ability to function. So if a chartered organization writes a letter or tells the local council that it will not uphold the standards of the BSA, the chartered organization should not be a bit surprised when the charter application is denied by the local council. DS

To answer the first direct question to me, there is nothing wrong with the "Great Southern Region" other than it seems that you need to be a Southerner to fit in and do well in that region. This Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin boy descendant of yankee revolutionaries is anything but a southerner. My wife and I also have no desire to live in the South. Nothing against the South, we just like the midwest and northeast. Personal preference, nothing more. Yes, it is true that starting salary in the BSA for professionals is about 32K. It's not bad pay. In most states it is in line with teacher salary (my wife is one) but in some states entry level teachers make more and in some states they make considerably less. As to Scout Executive salaries, six figures is more than what most Scout Executives make. And in larger councils, where the staff is much larger than the one outlined above -- indeed larger than most councils in the country, your Scout Executive isn't making six figures. Some do, but they are few and most of them have been in that position for 10 years or more. DS

Owl62 -- With your leave, (by which I mean if you don't mind) I'll answer your questions within the next 24 hours. Even without your leave, I'll answer your questions within 24 hours. You have several and there are answers. I do have to say, before I go to bed, that it sounds like you're wearing too many hats. Take a break is my advice. I'm not implying that you're not doing a good job -- I don't have enough information for that. I can tell you that I served as the professional for the same district for 8 years (each year we earned Quality district) but I burned out on that district. After a while, people just assumed we would get the job done simply because I was there. After I left it all fell apart. It didn't fall apart because I left, it fell apart because I was there too long -- the volunteers became used to me being the fall-back and lost all sense or responsibility. I'll answer your questions tomorrow. For now, I bid you good night. DS

Thanks for the correction. Either way, the names above in the councils I mentioned will work. If they have the records, they will give them. Use my name if necessary. If they don't have the records, there's not much I can do to help Dave

committeechair: I think it is time to pick up the telephone and call your District Executive for either the district commissioner's phone number and or professional advice. Now here's some free advice (worth exactly what you're paying for it) from a senior BSA professional -- an Assistant Scout Executive, not a national guy and one who has only been in three councils as a professional) The Scoutmaster who says campouts are for men only is either sexist or just plain lazy. If women are on a campout, one need to watch shower, lodging, and latrine arrangements, but there is no BSA prohibition against females on campouts. Period. End of report. If, as you say, many of the boys in the troop are being raised by single women and the scoutmaster's attitutide is as you say, my guess is that parents (meaning single mothers) would be involved, if he was out of the way. If you are the committee chairman, and have the backing of your chartered organization, it is within your realm of responsibility to get rid of the Scoutmaster. If you don't have the backing of your chartered partner, I would advise you to start another troop at the nearest chartering organization you can find to your home. Either way, you'll need the help of your district executive or commissioner. The other folks who have given you advice have one thing in common and it is correct -- females in the BSA are equal to males -- there is no rule, anywhere in the BSA that says that camp outs are male only. In fact, I'd be nervous if that were the case. Dave Steele Assistant Scout Executive

I'm not sure what you mean by "Christmas Knot," but I think you're referring to the James E. West fellowship. If you are, I add my thanks to Bob White's. When you call your council service center and ask about the Scouter's record, tell them what you're up to. They'll keep it confidential and release the information. If you get any static: If you're in the Pontiac area, ask for Pat Keenan (Finance Director) and tell him you've been talking to me and what you're looking for. Tell him I approve. He'll help you. If he doesn't, ask him to call me. If you're in Ann Arbor, ask for Todd Wordell (Assistant Scout Executive.) Tell Todd that you've been talking for me and what you're looking for. Tell him I approve. He'll help you. If he doesn't, tell him to call me and I'll verify. If you're not in those two places, I'm sorry I can't help you. In any case, there is no youth or adult Scouting background required to be a James E. West fellow. $1,000 given to the endowment fund is required. Still, it's nice to be able to list a person's accomplishments as justification for the gift when it is given. I hope this helps. DS

Owl62 -- What you're about to read from me is not as binding as what you would get from your own council service center, but it is an answer to your questions from a professional scouter who has earned the "Darth Vader" knot (the black and white one) about 5 times over. I know the BSA policies inside and out for the most part. I like to let people know what the policy is, but I've also been on the professional side of the house long enough to have formed opinions and those who ask questions of me get rulings as well as my thoughts. I can't seem to separate the two. There is no maximum of the number of positions a volunteer may be multiple registered in. Bob White is correct, the only position that can be multipled (didn't know that was a verb, did you? ) within the same unit is the Chartered Organization Representative. You can be a Den Leader/Assistant Scoutmaster/District Committee Memeber/ Council whatever at the same time. You pay only one registration (membership fee.) Bob White is also correct in that your primary registration is where you paid. However, the primary registration is also where youre main mail comes. It's also where your registration "counts." Primary registration can be switched betweeen positions without a transfer fee, by the registrar, as long as you're already registered in a position. Let me go back to mail. All registered adults get Scouting magazine. Cubmasters, Webelos leaders, Assistant Scoutmasters and Den Leaders, get Program Helps in their Scouting Magazine -- if they are primarily registered in those positions. The magazine goes to your primary position. Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters also get Troop Program Features inserted in their Scouting Magazine. Registered Commissioners get both the pack and troop program helps/features in their Scouting magazine. If their registration is primary as a commissioner. If they're riding on a unit as a committee member in their primary position they get the magazine -- but that's it. The mailings from the council follow a similar vein. Some mailings are intended for all unit leaders (CM, SM, and Venturer Advisor) and usually to the commissioner staff as well, so they know what's giong on -- but the labels are printed by primary registration -- if the unit commissioner is primarily registered as a troop committee member he/she will not get the mailing. Let me re-iterate the above by answering a question with a question. The question is "Where should my primary registration be?" My answer with a question is "What do you want to know?" I think the best bet would be to have your primary registration, if oyu are a unit commissioner, as a commisssioner. Pay your own ten bucks a year and be on the district charter as a commissioner. Multiple everywhere else. You'll receive all the program helps in your Scouting Magazine and get all the mailings that include unit leaders in your district. You'll know what's going on. If you're only interested in what's going on in your pack/troop/crew, then register as primary there. Now to the next question -- Can a membership card be issued for each registered position. Yes. I don't know why you'd want that, but yes. If they can't be printed from Scoutnet, your registrar can type them by hand. My opinion is that you need only one to prove that you're a member of the Boy Scouts of America, but if you want one for each registered position, it can be done. Easily. I hope I've answered where you should have your primary registration. It's up to the individual to decide. The decision, however, affects the mailing list. It really doesn't effect the numbers professionals or the council. The profession does not count adults in the membership numbers. Commissioner ratio to units counts and there is a report that counts district committee members -- we need them -- but no one has a critical achievement for the number of adults registered 12/31. The question of which uniform to wear is thornier. The literal answer is to wear the uniform of your primary registration full time. The reality is that people wear the uniform of the position they're doing. I don't have a problem either way as long as they're in proper uniform when they should be. So leave the velcro on the back of the committee member and commissioner patch and switch shoulder tabs between meetings -- it doesn't bother me either way as long as you're in full uniform. I hope this helps. I also hope I didn't make anyone angry. That wasn't my intent at all. DS

Because these questions are related closely to the questions you ask in another thread, I'll answer them all there. Besides, in the other thread, Bob White actually invoked my name -- so I'll field them there. By the way, thanks in advance for your questions. They're good ones and they are questions I've been aching to answer for some time -- just waiting for someone to ask. Some folks won't like the answer, but that doens't change the answer. See you down the page . . . DS In the merry old land of OZ!

Interesting question. There aren't regulations in the BSA that say who must pay registration for whom. Other than the basic joining requirements and membership standards, there are no standards for what constitutes an active membership in the BSA. Now that we've got policy out of the way, let me give you my opinion. I think that registration in the BSA is a personal responsibility. I don't like to see units (that get their money from the efforts of the boys and, occasionally the chartered organization) paying the membership fee (that's what registration is) for their adult leaders. When it comes to the boy registration (membership) fee, there is a written guideline in the unit budget plan that the family should have to pay the registration fee only once -- when the boy joins the program. After that, the registration fee should come from dues and unit fundraisers. If you would like a copy of the unit budget plan, call your council service center or look in your recharter package. It's free and only 1 page printed on both sides. When it comes to registration of adults, I feel very strongly that it should be paid out of the adult's pocket -- whether they're a unit, district, council, national, or professional staff member. If you want to be a member of the Boy Scouts of America, you ought to be able to shell out $10.00 a year for the priviledge. Now that I've typed that (my apologies to those that have their registrations paid by a unit that wishes to honor them, I think that's a different deal. To deny that unit the priviledge of doing you an honor is a dis-service.) I wonder how I can be a strong arm when I'm watching the Wizard of OZ on broadcast television with the same delight I felt when I was a child . . . Poppies . . . . Toto? Where's Toto?' DS

Has anyone noticed that some folk (good people, I'm sure) provide a response to this thread, but no number? I believe the question is more aimed at "how old are you" than "how many birthdays." I'm interested in the answer as well. Not interested enough to get pushy about it, though One of my personal goals is to meet as many of you face-to-face as I can. From there I'll draw my own conclusions as to how old you are DS

Thanks, Bob. You really made me feel good. So did others. It's that good feeling that keeps me coming back. When I first read the above post, I thought "what brought that on?" Then I read my previous posts and was not proud of myself. I don't make excuses as a general rule, so I won't start now. At any rate, it appears I was grousing about my Scout Executive (my direct boss.) I was. He drove me nuts all week. But when Saturday (yesterday) came around, he was a night in shining armor. I knew there was a reason I love the guy. Originally, it was just going to be me and the warehouse guy handling the popcorn Saturday morning. We had a 3 hour window for pickup -- 8:00AM to 11:00 AM. 33 unit orders to fill in those three hours (the rest picked up on Friday when I had 6 people working.) The Scout Executive asked me if I needed help on Saturday and I didn't want to ask him to come. Part of the reason I didn't ask him is that I didn't want someone to come in and take charge of my operation. The other part of it is sheer ego on my part -- my boss is a Scout Executive because he's been there and done that and I wasn't about to ask him to come in and save my bacon. Especially since it didn't need to be saved. He was there at 8:15 Saturday morning. Not 8:00 AM -- the first unit showed up with a semi-trailer at 7:45 (there's always a rush early) and Joe (the warehouse guy and I alone) loaded the thing up by 8:10. We could have handled the entire morning without the Scout Executive. But, and here's where the knight in shining armor label applies to him -- he worked like any volunteer would work. He worked hard and accepted my direction. The entire morning. When I thanked him as he and I filled a van with cases of unbelievable butter, he said, "no problem. Glad to help." By the way, we're talking about a Scout Executive who has been Scout Executive in this council since before one of my DE's (who grew up and earned his Eagle in this council) was even a Cub Scout! My Scout Executive would dance in the streets if he were to hear he's got a 50% approval rating from his volunteers (good thing we don't do polls on professional popularity!) But in my book, my SE is #1. I may get mad as heck at him from time to time, but when my back needs to be covered, he's there to do it and do it well. Sorry. The above was a bit off topic, but I had to tell someone. DS

Bob White is correct in that the chartered organization can deny approval to any leader candidate for any reason or no reason for a position in its unit. That doesn't mean the individual can not register elsewhere in another chartered organizaiton's unit or in the BSA. Someone else suggested that a candidate for registration in the BSA had to be approved by the chartered organization, the Committee Chairman, and the BSA -- this used to be true. Now it's not quite true. Someone wishing to become a registered adult in a unit in the BSA has to be approved by the Chartered Organization, the Committee Chairman -- and Accepted by the BSA. Accepted is different than approved. The BSA has to approve council or district positions (including merit badge counselor,) but we merely accept unit approvals. Accept also means we can deny -- for no reason or any reason. I'll also say what should have been said to pamaha right away --- Welcome to the forums, pamaha! Your input is valued. DS

It's no secret that the BSA Roundtable Planning Guide is there, but few know it. You didn't hear it from me -- the word is "reliable source."

Just went through this one at our Scout office and figure I can save you some time and trouble. The ideas presented so far in this forum, Roger, are good ones. However, the Boy Scout Roundtable Planning Guide is probably the most comprehensive. It is available on-line. That's the good news. I don't know that it can be ordered anymore. However, it is available online only to professionals. Here's how to get a copy. Go to your District Executive (if they don't have access to Scoutnet for whatever reason, they can lead you to someone who does.) Have them go to Scoutnet, then BSA Info, then Boy Scout Division. Under the Boy Scout Division there are links to several pdf documents. One under the heading of training is the Boy Scout Roundtable Planning Guide. It is available for the 2003-2004 year as well as the 2004-2005 year in pdf format. Download the documents to a diskette and you're ready to go. DS

Sharon: Thank you for the beautiful post. Yes, my wife and I would consider moving to the east coast. We would prefer to remain in the midwest, but she who must be obeyed is a graduate of the University of Maine (Farmington) and we would consider a move to the Northeast Region. Southern Region is out, Western Region is a slim chance, but Northeast Region and Central Region are definite possibilities. DS PS -- Sharon, cry when you want to. I do. Although, it's rare that Scouting brings a tear to my eye. Been doing it too long, I suppose.

You aren't the first volunteer or professional to attack this issue with Scoutnet. The Scoutnet system does have fields for almost any training you can think of. The reports that can be generated from that information are a part of the problem -- the ones that are in there aren't very good and they're only as good as the data. Scoutnet came to be in 1999. Membership and registration records from before the council went on-line were imported, but most councils did not have training records in their old Xenix system -- they were recorded by the district training chairman, or whoever put on the training, and only sometimes filed at the office. Odds are that anyone trained prior to 2000 does not have up-to-date training information in Scoutnet unless someone plugged it in manually based on old records. If you really want to know who is trained in your district and who is not, call them and ask. Or dig out as many training attendance reports you can dig up and tabulate them. I can tell you that training attendance reports often don't make it to the council service center, or they are given to the DE who may or may not (probably not) know what to do with them. I have to admit that I've found them in my file (well before Scoutnet) and said, "What do I do with these?" to my boss and he didn't know either. Phone calls work well. I think most people are honest enough to admit whether they're trained or not. Many save their trained cards. Those that don't want to admit they haven't been to training will usually reveal it by their lack of knowledge. I don't envy your task. Tracking training is a big weakness of most councils and I think it should be a bigger priority. If we could get to 100% trained the program would be so much better. Sorry I don't have a magic bullet for this one. Magic bullets are few and far between. DS

Fog: The answers to your two questions above are, in order: Don't know. Could happen. Until a couple of years ago the classifications were (smallest to largest) 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56 Why those numbers? I don't know that either. I only knew, as I know now, what the numbering system is, what it is based on, and where the council I serve stands in the line. I also know the classification of other councils, but only because some of the reports from national are in categories by council classification. DS