dsteele

Gentlemen: I think you've both been around long enough to know that I was going to weigh in on this thread when you posted. I know Eamonn didnt' expect to hear from me "You can't make Quality every year." I won't disappoint him. I don't agree with the statement. Now, if you were expecting me to kick your heads in, you will be disappointed. I'm not going to rah-rah. First of all, Eamonn, don't give up on the Quality district quite yet. 86 Cub Scouts and one unit -- sounds like a lot, and perhaps it is. I'm glad to hear that your district is continuing to bring in new members. In a council your size, giving up now on the part of your district may well sink Quality Council for the year. However, have you considered how many total traditional youth you need for Quality. There are two ways to meet the membership requirement -- one is to have a gain of 1 in each program -- Cub Scouting, Boy Scouts/Varsity Scouts, Venturers. The other is to have a gain of 2% in total traditional members. The Crew you're holding back, I'll get to that in a moment, how many youth does it have? If it's your church youth group, it could contain half or more of the members you need for Quality District as well as being the last unit you need. I'm glad you admit that holding back the unit (that sounds like it's formed and ready to start) is wrong in your heart of hearts. I believe that it is wrong. It's been done, but that doesn't make it morally straight. Some would call that a numbers game. There are 39 days remaining in the year. Some will be knocked out due to holiday festivities. Some will be knocked out because those of less resolve decide to have "weekends off." Whatever that means. I'm of the belief that a lot can happen in 20 days, or 30 days, or even 39 days. I'm not on a high horse -- I have missed Quality District and Quality Council. I've made it (when I say I, I mean the personal record of groups with which I've been involved) 12 of 15 years. The only years the box wasn't checked on my summary of professional performance were the years I came into that position in mid-year and the important stuff had already been set up. I don't buy that you can't be quality every year. Now, to the next guy, Proud Eagle: Proud Eagle, I'm glad you learned a good lesson from what you posted. I've worked with a few district chairmen who felt that National was all wet in their quality standards and that, as long as the district focused on his/her priorities all would be well. Invariably, the program suffered from that vision. Those who had the quality standards as their standards and their vision as growth beyond the national requirements did very well and the program thrived. This year isn't over yet. The night is always darkest before the dawn. The dawn is around the corner. However, there is still time to make Quality. Also, for the past 5 years or so, December has had 35-40 days DS

My condolences on your loss. It's always sad to lose one close to us, and I hope you and the Scouts find solace in each other and with the Lord's help. I think planning for the ceremony should be initiated with a discussion with the family of the deceased. This topic came up recently on Scouts-L and I have the best response I've seen saved somewhere. It came from the father of a boy who died who also received the Spirit of the Eagle Award. The troop made a big-to-do about it and surprised the family. The father was proud, touched, etc., but felt very uncomfortable when called upon (unexpectedly) to make a response to the group. I think you're on the right track, but please take the time up front to make it meaningful to those who live who lost a family member. God bless. Dave

Whew! I almost got sucked into this thread. Have fun debating. I'm outta here. DS

When I was a kid, my troop used to do a potluck toward the end of each year. It included our FOS presentation and Camp promotion. All us Scouts looked forward to it. I have to admit that when I saw the title, Red and Green dinner, I thought ????! I don't like the name. Troop potluck sounds more manly. The potluck, however, was anything but luck. Someone coordinated it. The family was asked to bring either a salad, side-dish, meat or desert. The troop bought the foam plates and plastic silverware, bread, milk, etc. No fee was charged. A lot of the parents (mostly moms at the time) saw it as an opportunity to cook their favorite dish for the boys and adults who were used to eating each other's cooking and there was always lots of good stuff to eat. My suggestion is that you go with a potluck affair and don't charge a fee. Catered is nice, but why not let someone spring their home-cooked green bean caserole on the troop? Just a few thoughts. DS

I forgot whether Gidget or Joni asked me the question, but the answer is, no, there is not a different Day Camp School for the military. There may be some military regulations inserted where applicable, but the syllabus is the same. I think we've all dealt with difficult, but well-meaning volunteers who insist things be run their way and that scare good people off. Lord konws I've seen my share of those in 15 years in the profession and I'm sure I'll find them in every council I'm going to serve for the next 25+ years I have before retirement. How you deal with those volunteers varies according to situation, relationship, your personal guts, etc. The cases that frustrate me as a professional the most are the ones where the other volunteers, who are in fact peers of the troublesome volunteer regardless of title, are so intimidated by the troublesome volunteer's training, tenure, number of cats in the house, etc. to stand up and say, "This is my job. I was recruited to do it and if you want to help me, let me do the job!" Gidget's last response to Joni was a bit emotional, but I agree with it. If the meddlesome volunteer chooses to go away in a huff when Joni stands up to her, that's the volunteer's choice. Most of the time, I've found that they shape up in a hurry and feel better for having their self-imposed "burden" lifted. Ohm, they may feel stiffed at first and go away thinking, "Her way won't work. I tried to help and she told me to go pound sand." But, when your plan does work, they'll be back. Let us know how it goes. Good luck and be strong. Dave

Bob White is correct. The COPE Committee can't do fundraisers on it's own. It is an arm of the council and there are more rules than I care to quote that back up this position. Now, let's focus on what you CAN do. I prefer to look at the positive and part of what I'm trying to do by participating in these forums is to help volunteers understand the system and work within it for the greater good of the youth we serve. OXCOPS, the key I see in your post is that you're looking 18 months out. Excellent. You're talking about things with COPE that will have to be replaced. You say that getting money from the Scocut office is like pulling teeth. Well, from the other side of the fence it's called fiscal responsibility and if it's not there, the donors flee in droves. 18 months is long enough out for the council to build those replacements into future budgets. What your committee should do, is start building a list of items that will need to be replaced and back it up with the appropriate national standards and the best current prices you can find. The list should look something like this: X feet of rope have XXX hours on them. In 18 months, we estimate they will have XXXX house and that exceeds BSA regulations of XXXX (I dont' have the numbers in front of me.) Replacement cost is $$$. Build the entire list. Get the appropriate approvals to get your committee's needs built into the appropriate council budget. You'll have to ask locally which committee the request needs to go to, but I think you'll find that working within the system is easier than you think. DS

I'm dating myself with a couple of these examples, but it's okay because I've already told you guys how old I am. I tend to focus on Eagle Projects as being important because they allow the Eagle candidate to demonstrate his leadership ability in guiding others in accomplishing an important task. I don't believe an Eagle Project has to be a "bricks and mortar" project. My first favorite Eagle project (not done by me) was done in the late 1970's in the district where I grew up. This was before books were put on tape and called books on tape. At the time, there were very few books recorded and the blind very often missed out. This Eagle candidate contacted the Public Library and got from them a list of the most requested books. He then borrowed several tape recorders (there used to be such a thing, complete with a microphone and they looked like the old tricorders from the original Star Trek series -- I explain that for the benefit of the under 30 crowd.) Anyway, the candidate then recruited several other people to read the books into the tape recorder. Led the effort to collect and catalog the tapes, and worked with the library to incorporate the taped books into a "Books for the blind" program. In all, they recorded several hundred books. Another one I liked came at the very beginning of the public access cable channel. One Eagle candidate -- who happened to be in my troop -- wrote, produced, directed, and filmed a program to educate the public in basic first aid which ran on the cable access channel for a long time. DS

I think the crew should be co-ed. Thet's my personal, unvarnished, not coming from any sort of official thinking, just my personal opinion. I think the High School years can be a great time for young men and women to get to know one anotehr outside of dating or school situations, and work together as people of two different genders in a supervised situation. Let the boys learn that girls are human, and are extremely capable. Let the girls learn that boys can also appreciate a sunset, and sometimes be afraid when a big storm is looming over the campsite. Perhaps I'm overly romantic, but I think a properly run Venturing program can be a great enhancement to social development between young men and women. DS

Thanks, KS, for that very important reminder. Dave

Our camp is a patrol cooking camp. This year, for the first time, we are offering prepared breakfast and lunch as an option. All troops will cook dinner in their sites and most troops are choosing to cook all meals in their sites. DS

There is an annual index of Scouting magazine articles available, but I'm not sure about Boy's Life. Yes, national does maintain a list of heroism awards, but I'm not sure it is published anywhere. I can look into that stuff at the office on Monday, if you'll send me a reminder. It seems the older I get the more my memory suffers. Dave

Bob: I think the salute is out of line when the anthem is sung acapella because, in most cases, when someone sings it, about 1/3rd of the notes are dead Therefore, it is not "live music." HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA . . . GOING NUTS FROM TOO MUCH POPCORN, MEMBERSHIP, ETC. (he said as he ran screaming into lunacy . . .) DS

First of all, I think it's great that this guy's old troop is willing and able to honor him as he passes on to what I believe is Heaven. I think any Scoutmaster (dead or alive) would like to see the boys wearing what they have earned and would like to see them wear it properly. I also like to think that any Scoutmaster who cares enough about Scouting has an understanding that boys are not perfect and that we're not finished with them yet. Allow a little leeway. I suggest the boys be told to "look their best and as proper as possible" for the ceremony. I say what I'm about to say as bluntly as I'm about to say it only because the original post said that no one in the troop really knows the deceased -- he's going to be just as dead after the service as he is now. His family will have memories. It's for them that the boys are doing the flag ceremony. I think it's important that the boys understand that their actions, dress, etc. will become part of the memory of the family of their father/husband/brother/son, etc. I agree with the poster who said the Scouts should practice. I think that's good advice. In terms of uniform -- I think it's important, but on a secondary level. I would rather see a Scout in poor uniform treat a funeral with proper decorum and respect than see a perfectly uniformed Scout who didn't take the funeral seriously. Focus on the family, not the uniform. DS

Joni brings up a good "teachable moment." Today's "teachable moment" is a phrase professionals use -- "Volunteer to volunteer, professional to professional." In other words, a volunteer who yells at, or attempts to "set a professional straight" is usually out of line, the exception being a council officer, the board, etc. on a Scout Executive. The reverse is also true. A professional is out of line if he/she yells at or "sets a volunteer straight." If this person is on your committee and you're having trouble, let them know your expectations and where they're out of line. If they don't or won't comply, eliminate them. If, somehow, you are on their committee and not the other way around (and readers, you can keep me out of the "my" "our" argument -- I have no use for that one) be prepared for the same thing. sometimes people expect the professional to beat on a volunteer because they don't want to offend a fellow volunteer. Really, it isn't our job. Now, if one of my DE's isn't doing the job, come to me and I'll have a chat with the DE. If this person on your committee is giving you trouble, lay down the law. Your Program Director will back you up. But don't expect the Program Director to initiate it -- he would be crossing a line. Clear as mud? DS

Cooking, my Proud Eagle Kentucky friend! They're a great way to get charcoal going without resorting to chemical fuels. I'll look around in our camp catalog to see if they're still available. Overtrained -- how about the Yardarm B&G either next Friday evening or Saturday afternoon? DS

I think we're supposed to notice gender It's what we do once we notice the gender that's important. As to females on camp in a Boy Scout camp -- I'm 100% for it. They make a wonderful addition. In fact, if it weren't for a certain female being on camp staff in 1990 when I was the Assistant Camp Director, I would not have met her and would not have married her and would have missed out on the best thing I ever did . . . marry the Nature Director. DS

This message has been whoopsed out of existance by it's author. Please go on and sorry about the interruption. DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

I'm an old man in Scouting tenure terms. Before my 40th birhtday I've earned several "veterans" pins I do not wear. Here's my non-overlapping tenure including the number of the year served 1973 -- joined the Cub Scouts. 1976 -- joined a Boy Scout Troop late 1979 earned Eagle 1983 -- became an adult Scouter 1988 -- became a professional Scouter 2003 -- today. That's 30 years tenure -- continous invement. In The BS of A. I'm going to be what we used to call when we were kids, "The Maltese Eagle. Oh well. 38 year old 30 yar veteran of the BSA. Youth tenure counts toward the awards. Take my word for it. DS

Hi guys. I have no right to interfere in this thread. I am not a forum moderator, nor am I any sort of owner of any sort of server on the web. I feel like a cop sticking his nose into a domestic dispute. I feel like I could get my nose shot off by either party. Please let me put it to you as simply and as logically as I can. 1) I have not read either one of you in this thread. I really don't know the viewpoints. Quite frankly, I have only skimmed them and know that you're having a disagreement over something to do with homosexuals. 2) I like, admire and respect both of you. 3) You are the only two, until now, who have posted on this thread. 4) You can private message each other and have this argument without (so far having it read 99 times) 94 other people reading it and drawing impressions about us from those readings. 5) In short, take it outside, would you please? I understand that passions run high in this issue. Mine do, too, but that doesn't mean that we have to let go of personal decorum. There are youth present who read every thread. One way or another we're in this Scouting thing together and it's for the good of our youth. If I am wrong and should not interfere here, I would like to hear it from other Scouters. If not, let's call a truce and move on to more important matters -- how to make our mission come more true -- to instill values in young people, etc. This is not a chewing out to the above parties. It's intended to be a reminder to all of what we're about. DS

!Jesu! Dancin' is a grandpa! Congratulations, man! I'm not used to getting thrilled about stuff like that, but I'm thrilled for you! I'm proud to be an Uncle, I can't imagine the pride of being a Grandpa. Too, cool, Dave! Congrats to you and your wife. If the kid's a ball of fire, as you are, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if you were his SM for Eagle. I would appreciate an invite to the Court of Honor, although I can't guarantee my attendance. I might be dead by then. Dave

Joni: Please share with your husband that I hope he isn't angry with me to my reaction to his private question that wastn't directed to him. I'm sure he'll understand at least the question, if not my response. In terms of this military base troop not rechartering -- believe me when I say it goes against nearly everything I've been taught, but not against what I've learned. Sometimes troops die. For a while. Two boys is not enough to run a good program. Sometimes all recruiting efforts fail and it has nothing to do with program, adult training, etc. Sometimes things just fade away. DE's fight it, but learn it sooner or later. It just means that two more have to be created somewhere else. That's the reality. The noble seek to keep the boys who do remain in the program in the program. I'm in that camp (I hope.) Lost unit, kept youth. Do what you have to do to keep the program alive. That's the whole point of membership. DS

Bob White and TwoCubDad are both correct. You need the attention of the chartered organization representative and/or the insitutional head in this matter. Both Bob White and Twocubdad have provided the techinical answers to your questions. Also, technically, the DE does not have the authority to remove either leader without the consent of the chartered organization unless they are in violation, or refuse to follow, the policies of the Boy Scouts of America. I agree with Bob White as well when he said that you need to get in touch with your DE. The DE is the primary profesional contact and may have an outside view of what's going on with this unit that is just far enough away to be unbiased. His/her point of view will end up counting a great deal in the resolution of this conflict even though the primary resolution should fall upon the chartered organization. Do not leave your DE blindsided. Twocubdad is correct, this is a chartered partner issue. Sometimes, however, the charter partner is unwilling or unable to tackle the issue. If they are, and this matter is serious enough, let me know. I have handled this kind of thing once with the blessing but not the action of the chartered partner. It worked, but was risky behavior as well -- especially in a one-troop town. I won't go into details other than a private message. The council representative has to sign the charter paperwork, and I once refused to sign or allow anyone else to sigh until all unit leaders and the committee chairman was replaced. The pastor backed up me having my neck on the line and the district and council volunteers backed up me having my neck on the line. The unit shaped up. But it wasn't pretty for a while. Touch and go is the term. Much better if you can get the charter partner to do it's job. Get some professional help. Ask your DE. DS

What Ka6BSa and FOG have described are fine by me. I apologize for over-reacting. I've seen Eagle "cooridnators" (that's the term I was looking for) over-do for the kid and you end up with, in my opinion, an Eagle Scout who can't seem to think for himself. Sorry guys. I over-reacted myself and misunderstood based on some things I've seen. Dave

This reference to Eagle Counselors is only the second I've run into. In the council where I earned my Eagle Scout, any counseling was done by the Scoutmaster and the district advancement committee. Some by the council itself. In the first council I served as a professional, there were no Eagle Counselors other than the troop, district and council resources as outlined by the national organization. In the second council I served, every Eagle Scout Candidate was assigned an Eagle Advisor. In the council I currently serve, it's according to the national structure -- Scoutmaster, district advancement committee, council advancement committee. I don't like the idea of Eagle Counselor or Eagle Advisor. I think they end up doing too much for someone who should be capable of reading applications and filing paperwork on their own. While I don't think Eagle Candidates should have to present their project orally to a committee of adults that they do not know, I think they certainly ought to be able to present the project in writing in sufficient detail that it can be reviewed and understood by anyone in the approval process. (deleted portion) Now I'm going to delete the example I've used. It's too strong and not fit for these forums. I feel better for having typed it, but you won't see it. New example -- an Eagle Scout Candidate should not need an adult to complete his Eagle Application any more than a High School Senior needs an adult to complete his application for college. I don't care what age the Eagle Candidate is. IF he chooses to ask an adult to check it over, that's his call. But I don't think an Eagle Candidate should be assigned someone to help him with HIS task. He should recruit one if he feels the need. I don't have anything against KA6BSA. I just don't like the idea of adults doing anything for Eagle Candidates that he can't do for himself. DS

Marty already explained the graffiti. Caveat Emptor = Let the buyer beware. (Loosely translated, OGE, don't even start As to OGE's latest Latin (isn't that a contradiction in terms?) I have no clue. Please, OGE, don't make me dig out my Latin/English Dictionary (don't know where it is) and give us a translation. Don't you guys make me revert to Quechua . . . I don't know where that dictionary is either and I have to go from English to Spanish to Quechua. Definately not worth the effort to show off to you guys. DS