dsteele

Perhaps it's time for a bit of back-to-basics. Below is from BSA publication BSA Mission Statement and Purpose #14-614C "The BSA Mission Statement and Purpose MISSION STATEMENT AND PURPOSE The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. SCOUT OATH On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. SCOUT LAW A Scout is Trustworthy Loyal Helpful Friendly Courteous Kind Obedient Cheerful Thrifty Brave Clean Reverent The purpose of this corporation shall be to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods which are now in common use by Boy Scouts. Federal Charter, sec. 3. One of the goals of the Boy Scouts of America is to provide, through chartered organizations, a program for boys, young men, and young women designed to encourage them to be faithful in their religious duties, build desirable qualities of character, train and involve them in the responsibilities of participating citizenship, and develop in them personal fitness. Special emphasis will be placed in assisting the home, religious groups, and schools in achieving success in the development of abiding values in the lives of young people. All programs will be directed toward helping to develop the full potential of each member." Those aren't my words. I do agree with them, although I'm not the author. I apologize for my earlier mis-quote, which is of minor difference from the one I plucked and planted. DS

Thanks, Laurie. I knew someone would come through and I'm not surprised it was you. Does someone else have a Scoutmaster Handbook? I'm sorry to say that I don't have one at home, but I really should. Dave

"The values we seek to instill are those found in the Scout Oath and Law." From the Mission Statement of the Boy Scouts of America. NJ is within his rights to question how those values are interpreted and I am within my rights to disagree with him. The values, however, are stated -- in the Scout Oath and Law. DS

Well, what do you know? How did I ask a question that hasn't generated controversy in 9 pages? Is that some kind of record? ? DS

I don't have copies of current editions handy, but I'm sure some on this forum do. What do the Scout Handbook and Scoutmaster's Handbook say about sexual responsibility and other related areas? I'm not sure what they say, but I'm pretty sure they say something. DS

Campfire Fairy, I think you have a good head on your shoulders and I admire your enthusiasm for the program and enjoy reading your posts. But did you really mean to get OGE singing?????? Actually, I'm a fan of songs around the campfire and you've called upon a great resource. There are several types of songs that can be led in various circumstances from the rousing ones to the more somber ones (that are often used when there's naught left but coals and it's nearing bed-time.) One of my favorite rousing songs is "The Cat Came Back." I don't know how to express the tune in writing, but it's a bluesy-folksy type of song with an easy to remember chorus and the burden is on the song-leader to remember the verses. I also like "The Great Ship Titanic," which my wife knows but I do not. Another favorite of mine that is now on the politically incorrect list is called "Mountain Dew." For the quieter songs, I prefer "Scout Vespers" and "On my Honor." Keep singing and learn as many songs as you can. Above all, keep Scouting. DS

Before a shooting war breaks out here, I think we should relax a bit and get to this at a later time. I'll respond in the morning. I feel I was personally attacked earlier on these forunms (not by any party so far involved in this thread,) but I need a break. I think Pamaha asks a fair question and deserves a reasonable answere that I'm sure we can provide. I'm in the wrong state of mind to do so, but I'll be okay after a bit of sleep. Others around the world can and probably will, post their answers and Pamaha and her Scouts will benefit. Goodnight. DS

FOG said: "We are only required to submit a tour permit is the destination is 50 miles from home so no one knows that no one is BALOO trained. In any case, we've been told that lack of a tour permit doesn't impact insurance coverage. If this is indeed the case, what is the reason behind the tour permit?" In both cases FOG mentioned above, the unit has been told the incorrect information. When a tour permit is required is stated in plain language on the Tour Permit itself. Ther is no mention of 50 miles. I don't have one in front of me, but there is a mis-interpretation of policy there. Secondly, the lack of a Tour Permit does impact insurance coverage if what the unit is doing is in violation of BSA published policy. DS

Thanks to Korea and Gidget for their great posts. Thanks for the warm feeling you gave me. Korea, I see no reason any Scout should need to know who his DE is and what he/she does. The only reason I was aware as a Scout that we even had a DE is that the DE had a son in the troop and came on camp-outs with us. The Scoutmaster feared no one, but he seemed to defer to this guy. For example, the Scoutmaster had a rule of no radios on campouts. I remember lying quietly awake in the wee hours of the morning on a cabin campout. I was on the top bunk, and the DE was below me. The DE's radio was playing quietly and driving me nuts. Finally, in the depth of the night, my Scoutmaster, who was lying in the bottom bunk next to the DE reached over and switched off the radio. Don't know why that story jumped into my brain, but it brought a smile. I pay my registration fee with pride and carry my BSA membership card in my wallet, just like the rest of you probably do. No reason anyone should have any concern over it. DS PS -- I don't know why people like to gang up on professionals, either. But I've been called lots of bad names over the years, up to an including a short one that begins with a "W" and ends with an "e."

The things FOG points out are, in my mind, different than a minor uniform differentiation. They can cause real harm to a unit. In the case of a pack that goes camping with no one trained in Baloo, I would hope the council would catch that on the tour permit and not approve the tour permit. There are liability risks that are being taken for breaking BSA policy. I would hope, in that case, that every step would be taken to try to get an adult in the pack trained in Baloo so the pack could go on the outing as planned. In the case of a unit holding a raffle, it is in violation of BSA fund-raising policies and, in the event of legal action being taken against the unit, there would be no protection from the BSA. The raffle would have to stop. DS

(This message has been edited by dsteele)

So . . . anyway, back to that Scout Oath and Law thing . . . Unless the individual uttering them takes them to heart and does his best to live them they are nothing but a bunch of nice words strung together. Taken to heart they make an individual strong and the community a better place. DS

I was mistaken when I said that all professionals must pay their BSA registration out of their own pockets each year. I should have said that all BSA employees must pay their own registraiton fees, except camp staff and a few other employees. Every secretary, professional, and pro-tech has to pay their own registration fee. I don't call that cheap on the part of the organization. I call that dedication on the part of the employee. DS PS -- if anyone makes the choice to quote me, I'd prefer it if they do it accurately and attribute the quote to me. Don't just use quotation marks on their own for me or for anyone. That's just plain rude. Schlameel, Shlamazel . . . DS

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I try not to make the world think I need them, but I do. I truly have come to love this place. It's strange to me that the people that have lived here their entire lives seem to degrade it, but I find it to be a wonderful place to live. I will have to shove off eventually, and it will be within the next 18 months. I took a 12,000 dollar pay cut to remain with the BSA and to be here. My wife, due to some unusual circumstances in the teaching profession, got a $10.000 increase in pay that will go away in the next three years and all at once. Financially, I need to move. I appreciate Fat Old Guy's suggestion that there is probably a council within an hour's drive of my home that can use my services -- Milwaukee would qualify. However, my next move would be to be one of three or so Field Directors in Milwaukee, and I've already been a field director. That job, by the way, is lousy. No desire to do it again. So, I have no idea where I'll go next. I'd prefer to be the Scout Executive of a samll council. In other words, I'd prefer to be a captain in the field than a Colonel in the Pentagon. So much more to be done. Thanks for the support. DS

First of all, to FOG -- all professionals of the Boy Scouts of America are required to pay their annual registration fee out of their own pocket each year. We are dues paying members of the Boy Scouts of America and have to meet the same membership requirements as any volunteer. Our employment is contingent upon our membership in the BSA. Evidently you thought otherwise. Professional BSA scouters that are OA members also have to pay their OA dues out of their own pockets every year if they wish to remain members of the lodge. Laurie: I'm sure any offer of help you make to your District Executive will be appreciated. Especially things like running Roundtable, etc. Sometimes you need to shove them out of the way. I remember one time that very thing happened to me. I and my volunteer popcorn chairman were at the distribution site. I kept wanting to help load vehicles. Finally the chairman got frustrated with me, grabbed me by my shoulders and said, "Look. We need you to lead us. Stand over there with your clipboard and the orders and make sure we load these vehicles with the right popcorn. We'll load us, but you tell us where it goes." I felt guilty at first, but after a while realized that I served better by getting out of the way and supervising. DS

Nldscouter: You made me laugh with that last box thing. No, we haven't unpacked the last box. We haven't unpacked the last box from the first move, let alone the second. Actually, we live in a three bedroom house with a living room and a family room. The family room is an addition and it has a crawl space under it that's accessible from the basement laundry room (it's a ranch house.) I call that crawl space "the bunker." In the bunker are about 20 boxes which haven't been open since we left Michigan for Illinois and Illinois for Wisconsin. Mostly the boxes contain "teacher stuff" that my wife assembled, but hasn't needed, but might need some day. So we move them and will move them again and again. At least when it's time to retire, we'll have a variety of places to chose to retire to. Then I can opem the quilt shop of my dreams and teach little old ladies how to applique in my spare time. Thanks for the reply. DS

Eamonn works with a Field Director who seems to come from the "old school" of BSA management. The "Old School" BSA managers tend to beat on the DE until the DE produces the desired result. I was trained by "old school" BSA management and vowed not to do that. What do I do to bring DE's up to snuff? Coach. The DE and I would have a chat about the difference between working hard and working smart. In the case of the DE who feels they have to be the Roundtable Commissioner, it must be a case where I inherited the DE when I came into the position. I would have trained the new one "out of the box" that such a thing is not their role. I would ask the DE if he/she had discussed the problem with his/her District Commissioner -- the volunteer responsible for Roundtables. If not, I would help the DE to understand who is responsible for what. If the District Commissioner had been consulted, but tossed it back in the DE's lap, that's a different problem and my next step would be to talk to the Council Commisisoner who is responsible for unit service, including roundtable, in the council. Now, 10 years ago, when I first became a supervisor of a district executive, my confession is that I would have told the DE, "You can't run the Roundtable. You've got other things to do!" Then I went to a BSA training cource called, at the time, "Coaching Skills." I learned that there's a positive way to let people see a problem, identify the ways to solve it, find a win-win and get people to feel good about a job. Danged if it didn't work. DS

I've been in my current position in the council I currently serve for nearly 18 months now. I'm halfway through my minimum required tenure in this council and will probably move with my wife in another 18 months. That will be my third move to my fourth council. I have mixed feelings about moving every few years. On the one hand, my wife and I look forward to a career in many different places, meeting new people along the way, and living in many different states and communities. On the other hand, I truly love this area. The people are great, we're on the shores of Lake Michigan and Wisconsin is a great state in which to live. The town we currently living is, in many ways, very much like 1960's America. The restaurant I eat lunch in nearly every day is unchanged from the 1960's. You can still get a fried egg sandwhich on toast (2 eggs) for $2.00 and the iced tea is freshly brewed. We have only two counties to cover and, if I drive west of the interstate, I find myself in idyllic farm country (mostly dairy farms, but some cabbage and beans) with rolling hills and many old structures from the 19th century. I'll be sad to leave this place. On the other hand, what other places can we live and what wonders will be available there? I was fortunate to spend 10 years in my first council and left only because there were no advancement opportunities available beyond what had been created for me. Four years in the suburbs of Chicago turned out to be one year too many. I had ceased to enjoy the traffic, and, quite frankly, the blame shifting that is prevalent there. Three years in Racine seems about 10 years too few, but there are no advancement opportunities here and there could be damage if I stick around too long and end up turning down opportunities to go for a Scout Executive position (which I've already done once.) Does this make me a nomad? DS

The black loops are worn only by official members of the BSA internal affairs department which investigates secret uniform violations of a punishable nature -- JUST KIDDING! No, black loops are not official. I'm not sure it's worth making a big deal out of someone wearing them to funerals, but they're not official. And there is no internal affairs department of the BSA -- I made that up. DS

At first I didn't understand the question. I thought it was about where we live and what we love about it. I'll get to that in another thread I'm about to start under council relations. If by "where hangs your hat?" you mean a special place that we love and visit again and again in our mind -- a place of awe and beauty, I'll be happy to share mine with you. Mine is in the Cusichaca River Valley in the mountains of Peru. I lived there for six weeks in 1987 as part of an archaeology dig. From the back window of my two-man Eureka Timberline, I awoke every morning to the sight of Huinni Huanu -- the mountain that Paramount uses as its logo. There was always a crisp chill in the air as a member of the dig walked around beating on the bottom of a pot to wake us up. We pulled on two or three alpaca sweaters and staggered to the dining tent for breakfast. The waters of the Urabamba river could be heard below crashing down from the glacier on the mountain. Fog gradually lifted as we climbed the steep trails up the sides of the mountain as the sun chased away the fog and the mountains revealed themselves in their Andean glory. It was quite a place. DS

Buffalo -- don't give up on this thread. Let's turn it around and get back on course. Laurie, you've taken the most important first step -- finding out who to talk to about what is an important first step. Eamonn is on the right track. The volunteers can make life much better for their DE than most DE's realize. I've been supervising DE's and District Directors for over 10 years and most burn themselves out in their first three years, mostly because they bring too much on themselves in their fear that, if left to volunteers, things won't get done. In fact, over the years I have learned that if the DE does the job of providing the right tools, information and motivation to the right volunteers things are done and done well. It takes a certain amount of trust and the ability to follow through, but the volunteers are what makes Scouting work. In that sense, I agree with FOG that I work "for" the volunteers. By in that sense, I mean that in the way a waiter at a restaurant works "for" me. They need to bring me the food I request in a friendly, timely, professional fashion. Just as I need to provide the council commissioner with timely information, and other things he needs to do his job in Scouting. I feel for the DE who feels he/she has to run the Roundtable because "no one else will." How is the DE supposed to find the time to assist the district commissioner in identifying and recruiting a volunteer to do the job if they're spending their time worrying about what craft to teach and what songs to lead? DS

I'm glad that Bob White and I check sources on those infrequent occasions when we disagree. Bob is correct, as is KoreaScouter that the scoutmaster needs to take the matter to the unit committee and get the committee behind the decision. That's a better way than what I described initially, which would leave the Scoutmaster alone in a storm. Removal from the unit, however, does not prevent the boy from joining another troop. Eisely is correct. If no other troop will take the kid, his registration will expire at the end of his former unit's current charter. If the council formally revokes his membership in the BSA there is an appeal process the individual may follow and once those options are exhausted, future registration in the BSA will be denied by national. DS

Boy Scouts in uniform going door-to-door prostletizing (sp butchured) for their chartered organization? There's nothing that says they can't from the BSA end, but I've never encountered it. In fact, the churches that do that may well have Boy Scouts doing it, but they're smart enough to put the boys in white shirts and neckties in order to make sure the boys are recruiting for their religion and not the Boy Scouts of America. I have seen and led Scouts in uniform around neighborhoods trying to recruit families into the troop. Not because of the chartered organization, but in order to grow the membership of the troop. The uniform promotes the BSA. There are some chartered organizations that admit only members of their particular religious institution to join their Scouting units. They have that right. My usual response is to start another "open" unit in a nearby area. Yes, a non LDS boy who joins an LDS troop (Latter Day Saints) is going to be exposed to the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints. They have Boy Scout Troops as part of their Aarronic Priesthood, which every young man goes through. The ideals of the Church mesh very well with the ideals of the Boy Scouts of America. They may accept non-LDS members, but the non-LDS members need to listen to the church teachings or choose to participate in another troop. None of the above is a mis-use of the Scouting program. DS

Fog: You can get as mad at me as a volunteer as you want. You can go to the Scout Executive and demand that my employment be terminated with extreme prejudice. Unless he agrees with you, he'll still sign my paycheck. A key council officer will sign my paycheck as well because we only allow one professional to sign and there has to be a volunteer counter-signature on all checks. My point is that the Scout Executive employs me, not the volunteers. He is employed by some very specific volunteers and the BSA. That's not a "very pleasant delusion." It's a very real fact. I don't think I'm the one who's deluded. I allow the possibility, but if you think you're my boss, the possibility is removed. DS

Two situations with different approval processes seem to have bled together here. The first is the removal of a Scout from a Troop. This is a different matter than the removal of a Scout from membership in the Boy Scouts of America, period. One is not the same as the other, and the former is far less severe than the latter. To clarify, we need to look at the approval process of a youth application and the resulting charter agreement. Who signs where? On the youth application the parent signs, giving permission for the son to join the Boy Scouts of America. The Scoutmaster signs indicating approval of the young man into the unit. In Scouting, the person who approves the application is the person that can remove the approval. If the Scoutmaster decides that the boy should no longer be a Scout in the troop, the scoutmaster can remove the boy from the troop. He/She would be unwise to do so without the backing of the Committee Chair and Chartered Partner (who approve the Scoutmaster,) but they could do it. There are no hard and fast rules about how and when to ask a Scout to leave a troop. A great deal of discretion is left open to the troop leadership (with the pressure on the Scoutmaster) to allow for individual differences -- case, by case. This forum seems to struggle with that concept, but it's there. The same applies to removal of adult leaders. If and when a youth is asked to leave a troop, please relay all facts to your District Executive or council service center. If you do not do so, the boy may well join another troop. Sometimes the kid does better in the new unit, sometimes he does not. If your DE is aware of the facts, he/she can alert the new unit leader of the past problems and give them a leg up in dealing with them. If the youth presents a danger to other youth through Scouting, the DE will relate that to the Scout Executive who may chose to revoke membership in the BSA for the youth. The pressure is off unit volunteers in those cases, and goes where it belongs -- to the Scout Executive. To answer the question -- just what would it take . . . -- the answer varies according to the case. Removal from the unit level is different from removal from the BSA. Removal from the unit level can be mild, can be major. Removal from the BSA is a serious matter that is given much consideration by all, including and ending with the national council (the brunt born by the Scout Executive) and doesn't happen very often. DS