dsteele

IF the retiring Scoutmaster hasn't already thought of this, and perhaps he/she has, I would advise you to ask them to be available to you as a resource, but to take a hiatus from the troop for at least several months. The boys need to have time to adjust to having a new Scoutmaster and perhaps new ways of doing things. I'd keep the old Scoutmaster around for the committee meetings, invite him/her to courts of honor or special things, but ask them to stay away for the first few campouts and the first few months of troop meetings. They would be welcome to return after the adjustment period. If asked in the right way, the old SM will probably cheer at having been let off the hook for the weekly stuff. DS

One of the best experiences I had as a Scout that really showed me that a given handicap does not have to prevent anything of major importance: I was the handicrafts director at summer camp when I was 15. An adult who had earned his Eagle several years before, spent a good amount of time in the handicrafts are. He had been deaf since birth. I didnt' know any sign language, but he and I had several "conversations" on a pad of paper during the course of the week he spent at camp. A lot of people seemed to think they couldn't communicate with him, but I loved talking to the guy on that pad of paper. He had a great sense of humor that would have been my loss had we not started writing on the pad. DS

Dropping him from the roster, if done (I'm not making a judgement on the issue) would be unofficial. His BSA registration is paid through the expiration date of the unit charter. The council could drop the Scout from the official unit roster if he were to transfer to another unit or die prior to the expiration of the unit charter. They may not be active in your troop, but they are still registered members of the Boy Scouts of America -- whether they show up or not is a different deal. DS

I don't say this very often, but I'm saying it to NJCubscouter because it is sincerely meant: I couldn't have said it better myself. DS

Thanks, guys. We have checked the popcorn, wreath, and advancement reports from the units and have identified all but 35 of the 230 we need. I'm relatively confident that calling the units and having them read us their roster while we compare it to council records will shake loose 20 more. New units will bring in the rest. Now all we have to do is make it happen. DS

Crewgirl1024: I know your Scout Executive personally and I know the policies. If someone were to stand up and say (in any way that drew attention to themselves) "I like sex with my own gender and the opposite gender!" They would receive a letter informing them that membership in the BSA is a priviledge and not a right and the letter would then outline the appeals process. The membership would be revoked. Actually, Mr. B (The Scout Executive) would have little to no say in the matter.) Once it came to his attention, policy takes over. Dave

I was going to start out this post by saying that I am not a big fan of the ACLU, but that's not quite true. So I'll start out a different way. I think the ACLU is unneccessary and I don't like what it tries to do on several fronts. I also disagree that the USA is a Christian Nation. I think that a vast majority of Americans are Christians, but there is nothing that says we have to be. I consider myself a Christian, but have no particularly strong relation to any church or denomination. My family has had some "hot" fights with Catholicism and Catholics, but I have not. I have a deep respect for Judaism (NJ, that's part of why I love ya) and the birth of Christianity from Judiasim that I rarely see acknowledged (what's that about 2000 years of plagarism?) I also respect the tenents of all the major religions. With the exception of Satanism, it is my belief that all major religions are based on the hope, prayer and belief in fundamental goodness that we must all strive to achieve. The bottom line is that I believe in religious freedom. I also have to admit, as a man who majored in Social Science, that great harm has come across time and across the world when religion is allowed to divide rather than unite people. We live in a great country where all can pray according to the dictates of their conscience, within the parameters of privacy. Why must we fight over who is right? In the end, it will all work out . . . whether we kill each other over the differences in the interim is really up to us, isn't it? DS

Adriann, I concurr. DS

OGE, and the otehrs who have posted on this thread, thank you for validating what I have long believed to be true. The best publicity for the BSA comes from its members in the local community. I grew weary a while back when volunteers and others would tell me that recruting, fund-raising, program, etc. would be easier and more fulfilling if we just had more publicity -- television news coverage, newspaper stories, etc. I think that the best publicity comes from Scouts going door to door in uniform collecting food for the community (Scouting for Food) and popcorn sales (ring my doorbell and I believe you're there. If I see it on television, it could be fiction.) Community service projects and adopt a highway are good ways of saying to the community, "we're here and we're real." Go to the schools in your uniform. Man, grass roots are very strong and far more lasting than a 30 second commercial -- which many Americans, like me, view as a bathroom break -- can ever be. As Scout Leaders, I think we develop stronger community support be airing our uniform from the campfire wood smoke by hanging it over the light on the side of the garage (outside) than hanging it inside the closed garage on the door runner. It's hard, (I say, stealing from retired Chief Scout Executive Ben Love) to develop PR stories for an organization that meets in church basements and camps deep in the woods -- unless we get out and tell people about ourselves. That applies to youth and adults. Do community service -- participate in Scouting for Food, realize that product sales do more than bring in money, and the public will be more aware of what we're about. PS -- I love the idea that Scouts are not wimps and that we do cool stuff. Youth should be encouraged to share what that cool stuff is to others. That's more grass roots PR. DS

Thanks, Red. It means a lot. We're narrowing the gap. When I started the thread, we were down 6 units and 230 kids (traditional youth) from Quality standards. We now have identified enough kids to where we only need to find another 40 or so to nail the goal. I'll know more after the roundtables tonight and the staff meetings tomorrow. We're chipping away at it and if all goes well, we'll make it . . . and so will the kids we bring into Scouting in this late year effort to grow in membership. We've been steadily ahead of last year by between 1.5% and 3% every month so far this year and I'd hate to see us not be 2% on 12/31/03. It's not the number itself, it's the members the number represents. Dave

I may have said what FOG said in a different manner, but when I agree with someone, regardless of who it is or how often we disagree, I have to admit . . . that I agree with them on that particular issue. I side with FOG and the others on this one. The Cubmaster is being, for whatever reason, irrational. The Blue and Gold should be the boys' celebration, not a status builder for the Cubmaster. If the Cubmaster chooses to leave over centerpieces, you don't need that person as Cubmaster. DS

cs4wc -- excellent questions and a perfect opportunity to turn a situation around. The advice you have received so far in this thread is very good and from people who know their stuff. I'm one of the few "professional" scouters (3,500 or so supporting a membership of nearly 3.5 million kids across the BSA) and have seen this type of thing happen both personally and professionally. I see a lot of passive voice in your original post. My advice to you is to take out the passive voice -- meaning take action as others have suggested. Go to the training, don't wait for it to be provided. Offer to lead a pack meeting rather than wait for one to be led for your boy. There's no need to make a nusiance of yourself, I'm not suggesting that, but offer to help or simply reach in and start doing. Don't wait for someone to come "knight you," that probably isn't going to happen. But if you offer to take care of the financial stuff of the unit, it will probably be given over to you . . . it does sound like your fellow leaders are either overwhelmed, disorganized, etc. This reminds me of what happened when I was about 8 years old. I saw a TV commercial about Cub Scouting and really wanted to join. My Mom called the Scout office and was told that the pack at my school was all but dead. She could have just shoved me into another pack or kept me out of Scouting altoghether, but instead she asked the District Executive, "What will it take to get the pack going again?" He told her. Pretty soon, Mom was a Den Mother (back in those days you had to be female for what is now Den Leader) and my father was Cubmaster. Shortly thereafter we had a pack of 40 some boys. Dive in and have fun with your son! Best of luck to you and keep us posted, please. DS

Our paddles clean and bright, flashing like silver, swift as the wild goose flight, dip, dip and swing. Dip, dip and swing them back, flashing like silver, swift as the wild goose flight, dip, dip, and swing. Thanks for the memory. DS

Some have referred to this type of discussion as a "mountain hanging by a thread." Some time ago, there was a survey and it was determined (I've found none who disagree with it) that Scouts to earn the rank of First Class within 12 months of joining a troop are more likely to continue in their tenure. Scouts who fail to earn First Class within 12 months tend to quit the program. There was no statement made about the quality of the program, the quality of the parent, or the quality of the Scout. The assumption from the study was that we should do all we can to give every kid the opportunity to earn First Class within the first year (12 months) of joining the troop. After that, stuff like the stuff that has been posted in this thread has come. I think it's up to the troop to offer the opportunities and up to the Scout to take them. DS

Big Dog is talking about this article: http://www.madison.com/captimes/news/stories/62466.php James Dale is evidently using his status as an ousted leader to further the gay marriage issue. DS

Thanks, Overtrained, for the level-headed response. On a more personal note, it was nice to finally meet you Saturday evening. My membership card has arrived and my wife and I will use it on my birthday this month. She's looking forward to the trip. Thanks again. Dave

Question for the group in general and for Scouter Terry: The question was beneath me and I shall not ask. I tire of FOG's negativity. Period. End of report. This message has been edited by Dave Steele to preserve his integrity. Angrily, DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

Alright, I've been silent on this thread long enough. Kindly take a deep breath and read my words carefully, thouroughly and follow me through a logic problem. Please also allow that I haven't had to file a logic premise through to the end since taking the course in 1984. Take your deep breath . . . Here is the premise: The Mission of the Boy Scouts of America calls for instilling the values found in the Scout Oath in Law. With me so far? Here are some other premises based on the first (NJ can help me with the Logic terms, I'm sure): 1. An Eagle Scout should embody the values found in the Scout Oath and Law. 2. An Eagle Scout should be a well-rounded citizen. As backup logic to number 2, I ask -- a) If Scouting performance alone certified the values of the Scout Oath and Law, why then does the BSA require letters of recommendation from such people as coaches, clergy, teachers, etc. before granting the rank? b) If Scouting performance alone merited Eagle Scout rank, why then should the Board of Review contain members of the community as a whole? c) If Eagle Scout required Scouting performance alone, why must the Eagle project be of benefit to the general community and not just to the BSA? d) If troop performance alone certified an Eagle Scout, why then must a member of the district be a part of the Board of Review? 3. Can a Scout become truly well-rounded if all his time is spent in an enviornment where the Scout Oath and Law is always enforced for all participants? How is a Scout to live his ethics in such an enviornment. Kids run into peer pressure in unsupervised enviornments and they resist based on what they've learned in those supervised enviornments based on what has evolved into their own set of values. This is the BSA in real action. I digress a bit, but I remember being in the 7th grade and wearing a greek fisherman's cap. I went into the bathroom of a McDonalds and some guys tried to sell me dope -- I said, "You've got to be kidding," and beat feet out of there. My values had already been set and a lot of those values came from the BSA and the rest came from my parents. OK, it's late and I've lost my train of thought, so I'll come to my point. The number of meetings and campouts and even fundraisers needs to be varied according to the Scout's desire, ability, strength, needs, etc. That's why you won't find a hard and fast national guideline. You, IMHO, do not need to have your unit need to make those rules. I think this type of thing is the reason for the ambiguity and the reason Troops should not set arbitrary participation rules. Work them out in Scoutmaster Conferences, Boards of Review, PLC, etc. I remember reciving a bunch of young Webelos into the troop I served as Scoutmaster. One of the new Dads came to me and explained that his son was in sports for 3 of 4 seasons and that he would only be active in the troop for about 3 months at a time. I told the Dad that was fine with me, but that he shouldn't expect his son to advance in rank as quickly as the others. Not because of anything I would do to hold the kid back, but because he wouldn't be around for as many opportunities as his fellow Scouts. The Dad accepted that, the kid had a great experience and on we went. DS

So much for just lurking on my part. I have to admit that I'll not be gone for the rest of the month, but my time is confined to the times of the day when it's realistically too late to bother DE's or units with membership concerns. Believe it or not, just today we got a revised Registrar Procedure Manual that ordered us to destroy all previous copies. I mention this only because I'm about to draw from the source -- which I read over my lunch -- not because it is a new policy. It is not. As to switching councils, the answer is no, as Bob White has said. Fat Old Guy is correct in that the members would not have to move, but is incorrect in telling the CO to take out a P.O. Box number. The physical location of the chartered partner as it compares to council boundaries is the council in which the charter belongs. It is in bold print that the mailing address has nothing to do with the matter. Therefore, a P.O. Box to RFD 1 in somewhere North Carolina would make no difference if the community center, church, etc. is physically located in Somewhere South Carolina. The advice to work through the system to fix the problems within the local council of the physical location of the chartered partner is good advice. The LDS exception is true and interesting. I have only had to deal with it once and finding out how to do it was a three year process. Basically, the process begins within the LDS Church and is based on the Church's organization of Wards. The Church initiates the request to change councils. The request goes through the originating council and requires the approval of the council Key Three -- President, Scout Executive and Commissioner. The signed form goes to the President, Scout Executive and Commissioner of the receiving council and then to the National Council through the Region for final approval. Membership and unit history move from council to council for records purposes. It is not an easy process and it applies only to the LDS Church. Other than the above, KoreaScouter is right on the money. The things he outlines are possible and as improbable as he describes. DS

Good luck to you as well Eisely. Go ahead and send those bills to Milwaukee I'm sure they can afford it. We can not. Dave

PS -- Please try to not kill each other while I'm away. I really do love the bulk of you and would be disappointed to come back to an empty campfire ring. DS

Good evening folks: Today is December 1 and I'll admit I've been a bit more quiet on these forums lately (with the exception of last weekend when I had some time on my hands.) It's only going to be more quiet from the Steele front as I try my best to help this council achieve quality objectives when it appears many councils will not achieve them this year. I still love you and will lurk when I can. I'll post when I have the chance as well, but I'm not going to be as prolific over the next 30 days as I have for the past 90. All we need to do is come up with 230 new youth and six units before the end of the year and we will have achieved our objectives. That's not a lot for a big council, but it is a lot for a small council. Unfortunately, we are a small council. I bid your leave for the next 30 days -- although I'm sure I'll pop up from time to time. Wish me luck. This is what I do and have done for the past 15 years. Time to rock and roll local style . . . DS

Eamonn summed up exactly what I'm trying to do with my participation on these forums, and even what I'm trying to do with my career when he said: "I feel sure that when the Man Of Steele posts he is on the money re. POR. While at the same time is not out to dot the i's and cross the t's. " If I'm interpreting Eamonn correctly, he is saying that I'm on the money when it comes to what we're trying to do and not necessarily worried about how we go about it. Please -- Eamonn -- feel free to correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth. In short, I understand if a unit leader is uncomfortable talking about sex with a Scout. If you are, please feel free to expain that to the Scout and refer them to their parent or religious leader. In no way do I feel a Scout Leader should provide any instruction other than what is outlined in the handbooks. It is, after all, an uncomfortable topic. And it is a very private topic. It is best left up to those more qualified to handle it when it comes to going beyond the basics of responsibility as lined out in the handbooks. In the meantime, if you'd like a professional's view of the why of something and how to accomplish something for the sake of the youth we serve, please feel free to come to me. If you want chapter and verse, I'm probably the wrong guy to ask. DS

As it should be, gentlemen. The strength of an Eagle Scout lies in the strength of his character -- which is the sum of his attitudes meeting his actions. A short blue-haired Eagle Scout, a long- haired Eagle Scout, and a "preppy" need to meet the same standards of leadership. High character is imperative -- hair length or color is umimportant. DS

Amen to Eamonn and to those who tell him to take a bow. My point was that the books only go so far and that beyond what is written we need to use our own good judgement. It isn't always easy. I'm not one to usually go by scripture (or the book alone) I believe that we as Scout leaders have a responsibility to use our judgement and keep the interests of the youth we serve at the forefront. There are so many on these forums who do that and I find it a joy to participate. DS