dsteele

EagleinKY, a refresher training on BORs with your unit is a good idea. A year or two after I left the troop I served as Scoutmaster, one of the parents who remembered that I was the Scoutmaster when the troop was growing. The had 25 or so boys when I left and 40 the year after that. The parent who came to me was concerned because boys seemed to be dropping out at a rapid rate. So, I visited a committee meeting. Oh -- I should probably mention that I was the District Director for that district. Well, one of the problems was that they had stopped having a committee meeting and changed it to a "parents meeting" and all parents were pressured to attend. There'd be about 30 parents in the room. Then they brought in some kids for a board of review! A little nervousness felt by a first year Scout is part of his growth -- but an interview with 30 of your friend's parents is over the top. Adult over-involvement was the key to that troop's troubles. I wish I could tell you whether they got over them or not, but got promoted out of council shortly thereafter. DS

The accident is a terrible thing for all concerned. I'm not much for cannons at flag ceremonies -- they always make me jump, even though I know what's coming. That's just a personal preference of mine. I don't think we'll see cannons banned from the Boy Scouts of America because of this accident. It won't surprise me, on the other hand, if some basic rules for their use were to come as a result of the accident. Several reasonable rules have been mentioned in this thread. I'm not big on rules, but I am big on common sense. If the cannon blew up because it had not been properly maintained or was in poor condition -- we need some guidelines to make sure the same thing doesn't happen again. If the problem was that it was loaded by an untrained person -- we ought to train anyone who loads a cannon in how to do it properly. Perhaps two people ought to be required -- one to load and the other to check the charge. My point is that, for example, we have had kids drown at Scout camp in our history. We did not ban the lake, we came up with rules: swim tests, buddy checks, etc. Although the proper shoulder tab color for the uniforms of the safety patrol has been discussed -- their favorite plan was red on the left shoulder and green on the right -- but those were already taken -- nothing was ever decided. They didn't like my suggestion of "Hunter's safety" because they've already limiited hunting to Venturers. JUST KIDDING about the shoulder loops. Not kidding about the hunting. DS

Man, I don't know what NJCubscouter charges per hour, but he's spending boat-loads on these boards! I don't have an opinion on Guatanamo prisoners. I do wish that my friend, whom I served with as a DE, could stop guarding the prisoners there and come home to his family. DS

I have been accused, and rightly so, of being too trusting of people. I take them at face value until they prove otherwise. I campioned Lil several times in this thread. I watched her lose the game and was proud of who she chose as her remaining survivor. However, after she came in #2, I happened to look at the Survivor web site. Until I looked at her audition tape I thought she was suprised to be marooned -- the show's premise was that the people were told to dress as if for a press conference the way they wanted the world to see them. How cool that Lil chose to wear her uniform, and unfortunate that she be marooned in it. Nah. She's wearing the uniform in her audition tape. She begins the tape with the Scout Oath and Law. Lost a bit of respect when I saw that (read that sentence with the dry growl it is meant to be read with.) DS

Merry Christmas and a blessed holiday season to all. Dave

My eyes were opened about 10 years ago when my Girl Scout Gold Award Wife set me straight. I am now a firm believer in the power of the Girl Scouts of the USA to teach young women skills as well as the Boy Scouts of America. My problems with the GSUSA are, as you might likely predict, with the national and professional organization of the GSUSA. I'll post more later on this topic, but I'm not impressed with the Girl Scout organization from my point of view. I'll preface my later post with saying that, in 15 years of going into schools to recruit boys -- whether or not in mixed gender classrooms or settings -- I have NEVER run into a Girl Scout Executive, nor heard of one. I have heard that GSUSA "field directors" the same as BSA "district executives" work 35 hours a week as opposed to a DE's 60 hrs. a week. Perhaps I'm biased when it comes to professionals. In terms of program, however, GSUSA is on par with BSA. DS

Eamonn, my friend. I am an American and come from a long line of them. I come from a line of Americans centuries old that has not forgotten anything. I opened my ears when you told me to cover them. I opened my eyes. Sorry to be so contrary, but it is in my nature. I do not disagree with anything you've said. Indeed, I agree with the whole of it. I think that if a troop is dis-satisfied with anything to do with it's council camp, it owes it to the camp and the other scouts in the council to complain loudly and voriciously to the camping commitee. Adffect change before going somewhere else. Above all else, keep the boys in Scouting. To the others: All I ask is that you don't become one of those units who want to cry to the media whem the camp you don't attend is sold . . . DS

Twocudad: I couldn't have said it better myself, although I was trying to. A little inherent intimidation on the part of new scouts is not a bad thing. We need to teach them how to overcome it. That's all on that front. We don't need to intentionally try to eliminate it or to train the boys in how to avoid it. The reason adults cringe a bit when thinking about performance reviews is that we all know in our hearts that, no matter how well we have done, we could have done better. The answer, therefore is to strive to do better. I disagree with giving even "mock" boards of review to Webelos. Let them go forward when they are ready --- as Tenderfeet. DS

NJcubscouter said: "As I suggested in the last thread about this, it would seem fair to me if the councils around the nation who support the gay-discrimination policy would pony up some money to assist a council that opposes the policy, so they can afford to stay in business until the BSA finally comes to its senses. I have been told that it is very unlikely that this money will be provided. But that only makes my point stronger." This has been a difficult year finanicially for all non-profits. Local councils don't have extra funds -- and many more in addition to mine are cutting positions they would rather keep because they don't have the money. Last year was a much better year financially for this council -- and we still ended the year only about $1,100 to the black. DS

If you happen to have forgotten what it's like to be a young Scout going for a rank (pick a rank, it really doesn't matter) just remember how you felt the last time you had to prepare for a performance review on your job. DS

Another alternative would be to recruit a troop from another council to attend your council's camp. One man's "terrible" can be another man's "terrific." DS

I have a brother-in-law who lives in the Detroit Area. He, as a bulldog, makes me look like a cat! If you private message me with the address of the person who has the mascot, I'll be happy to sick the brother-in-law on it, or go get it myself if I happen to be in the area. No need to wait for emails or phone calls. I can assure you we will not break and enter, but if it's to be found and we have the addresses, will will retrieve the beasty for you. Dave

Thanks for the sentiment, Ozemu. We've been hoping for Uncle Elmer's return for years, but know he's gone. Well, we're at least mostly sure he's gone, but we'll never know. I know Uncle Elmer sounds made up, but he's not. I did run across a man in Florida several years ago who knew him during those WWII years. That man, however, didn't know anything about his final disposition and is now deceased himself. Some mysteries will never be solved. DS

Roger: Welcome to the campfire! Don't be afraid to post. There are a lot of good people here and we're happy to count you as one of us. Welcome. Pull up a log and join in the chatter. Dave

Laurie: For the pack side, do the things Bob White and Fuzzy Bear suggest and your pack will grow. Concentrate on filling the Tiger Dend and getting a Wolf Den. As for the Tigers, build on what you have. You have only two tigers, but those parents who did sign their kids up are your best shot to getting some excited parents involved as leaders -- give them all the help you can. The lack of wolves is unusual and merits looking into. Bob and Fuzzy give excellent advice as to what to do to fix those problems. The 4% market share (taking Laurie's numbers of 20 Cubs in a 500+ kid market) is something that should cause the district membership chairman and district executive to jump on an opportunity. The first thing I would do as a professional is to find out which of the 4 schools most of your kids (if not all) are coming from. The fact that you're concerned about the numbers would encourage me as a DE to seek your help in looking into starting new units. However, if you were dead set against me working toward that aim, I would be duty-bound to take the pack's roster to each of the school secretaries and inquire which boys go to their school. Then I would begin feeling around at each school (once it is determined which school primarily feeds your pack, I'd leave that one alone) for potential leaders. I would also check out other potential chartered partners in the area. The area Laurie speaks of does not have enough packs. Even if her pack were to reach a slightly below average market share of 25% of the boys, it would be a 100 boy pack (very large -- hard to give kids proper recognition in such a pack, but that's a topic for another thread) and still leave 400 boys unserved. Another statistic used by the BSA that gives a good picture of the need for units (or lack thereof, although that's rare) is called "Opportunity to join." Opportunity to join is the number of available youth divided by 100. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but if recollection served me at all, it's about 1/2 a pack (0.5) per 100 Scouts, nationally. In the case Laurie talked about, the opportunity to join is .04 This is not a judgement of the program put on by the pack with which Laurie is affiliated. It's simply statistics and the need for more packs in order to serve more Cub Scout age youth. DS

I'm as proud to be a citizen of the United States as anyone else. My family's blood has been shed in only two wars that I know of: The French and Indian War and the Revolutionary War. But that's not why I'm posting. I want to go on the record as saying that I'm proud of and admire our Australian friends. I've only had the honor of spending time with 1 or 2 Aussies, but I found in them the same strong spirit that makes the US of A a great place and a strong country. I also feel that, historically, they've been by our side when we need them the most. I think they are a strong, honorable people born of England and cast off . . . very much like we were. Ozemu -- my Great Uncle's plane went down in New Guinea in WWII and he is presumed dead. Send out a feeler, would ya? If there's an old man wandering around in the jungles there, ask him if he's Staff Sgt. Elmer Beck. If so, send him home to me and I'll take care of him. DS

Eagle Foot: In what role have you been asked to join the troop? DS

I was a bit emotional when I blamed (partially) units who go to out of council camps for my dilema. However, the fact is that camp fees are an integral part of a council's budget. The council spends about the same amount on camp as it charges -- when year-round expenses are taken into consideration. Of course councils encourage troops from other councils to come to their council camp. They encourage it for the same reason that it's wise to drive the speed limit when in a state other than your own. From a pure dollars and sense point of view, attending an out of council camp takes money away from your council and puts it in another council's coffers. However, program takes precedence and if your Scouts are getting a more well-rounded program by attending a variety of camps, more power to them. Camp is more than about money, but without money, pretty soon there is no camp. The council I currently serve -- BTW -- I still serve it. My position doesn't end until 3/31 and I will continue to serve this council until that date or when I'm placed in another council. Anywho -- we're currently in the process of developing a long range plan. We sent out a survey to every registered leader. One of the questions on the survey was, "Should we sell our long-term Boy Scout camp?" We're getting a bit of outrage at even asking the question, but camp attendance numbers seem to indicate the exact opposite. That's life. As to the question "Are we facing a crisis of epic proportions?" I don't think so. We're hitting a bump in the road, perhaps several bumps in the road, but it isn't going to kill us. We need to work a little harder in keeping good program going, retaining and recruiting members, developing our own sources of funding, recruiting, training and developing volunteer resources, etc. I like what Mike F had to say -- secure the camp and howl at the wind. As t-shirts said when I was a kid "Keep on Truckin'" DS

Sales pitches, dear Eamonn, are only a bad thing when you're sold something you don't want and don't need. I felt the same way about the Kirby Sweeper (souped up vacuum cleaner to those who speak the west side of the pond English.) When I found out the price for the Kirby was $1,200 I told the salesman that I'd better be able to drive it to the office for that price. He asked if we wanted financing plan A or B. I told him I wanted plan C -- which was, "Pack up your machine and get the heck out of my house!" My wife pulled me into the other room. She had wanted a Kirby for many years and couldn't find someone to sell her one. Turns out it's a very fine sweeper, and, if properly motivated, it can give a decent ride to a little guy like me My point is that if the customer is in need, and the salesman is sincere, a sales pitch is not a bad thing. Conversely, when my phone service got "slammed" into another long-distance provider when I explicitly said, "NO!" to the salesman, something criminal had been done -- but that wasn't a sales pitch. At the end of a "pitch" the buyer can say "no" and make it stick. What you're doing is a pitch, but that's not a bad thing. I'm sure you'll know that "no" means "no" and that "yes" means "bring it on!" Dave

They don't wear a unit number. It's a district or council registration, I'm not sure which. The College Scouter Reserve is much like a district member at large -- no particular unit affiliation and wear silver tabs. Registration simply means membership in the Boy Scouts of America -- all else is simply a method of categorization. DS

Fotoscout -- You didn't anger the professionals. Actually the over-saturation argument comes up so frequently that a professional with any kind of tenure has gotten used to it, and proceeds anyway. Whoever pointed out that McDonalds is closing some restaurants, has me on that one. They are. However, if the BSA had the kind of market saturation that McDonalds has, we'd be closing units. The fact is that we don't. Average market share for Cub Scouts hovers around 30% of the available boys (I don't have an Index of Growth here, but if I did it would tell us exactly what that median market share is for 2002.) That means that across the country 70% or so are not being reached by existing units. In the Boy Scout program, average market share is around 20% (actually, it may be lower than that) and we aren't serving 80% of Scout age boys with existing units. With Venturing, the average is less than 3% served. Actually, to say we serve 3% of the Venturing age group is a big stretch, but I don't have the chart in front of me. I agree that we need to get the word out to our target audience, but I don't think getting on the front page of the paper is going to help us. Word of mouth is the best way to do it. How do we do that? If I knew the answer, I'd be the Chief Scout Executive tomorrow and that isn't going to happen. We get the word out when someone convinces someone else to join the Boy Scouts of America. We get the word out when it hits the streets that there's a new troop in town or that just because Jimmy didn't like the troop at the Methodist Church, he doesn't have to quit Scouting. There's a great troop on the next block at the Presbyterian Church starting up . . . For example, I just about got ridden out of town on a rail in a small town in Michigan. It had been a one troop town for a long time. The troop membership in this town was 15-22 boys. A group of parents who's sons were graduating Webelos decided they didn't like the one troop in town. With no coaching from me (I would have coached them, but didn't know the situation until they came to me) decided they wanted to start another troop in town. The Scoutmaster and troop committee of the existing troop beat me like a puppy trying to get me to stop their effort to start a second troop in town. They said that if there were two troops in town, their troop would die -- or they would fall to 7-10 members and the new troop would only have five. A year later -- the old troop had 15 members. The new troop had 30 some. So there were now 45-55 Boy Scouts in town when there had only been 15-22. And still the town was only serving 15% of the available Boy Scout age boys. DS

The BSA book on flag ettiquette is excellent and is used by other organizations as well. The basis of the book, and the part about saluting with a hat on when in uniform is found in the United States Flag Code . . . which until recently I had never read. The code also says who may order flags at half staff and on which days it should be done. DS

I'm amazed at all the German guys referenced in this thread when the phrase that began is was coined by a brilliant Italian by the name of Niccolo Machiavelli. Does know one but me know of him? Or the rest of the quote? He wrote, among other things, "Il Principe" or "The Prince." DS

Fotoscout said, "Having asked the question maybe I can answer it. Professionals need to startup new units as a feather in their caps. Very simple formula, start new units, do good work, get promotion and more pay. Very honorable on the part of the professional, hes just doing his job. Unfortunately the down side is this dilution of the volunteer resources and the weakening of existing units." Mostly true, but there are some flaws in the logic. I point this out, not of anger, but because people need to know it. 1) For professionals, starting new units is more than a feather in their cap. It is a job requirement. Failure to do so will result in termination eventually. There are reasons for this, which I will outline below: fact: average unit size in the BSA has not changed significantly in the past 40 years. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but know this to be true for at least the past 15 years. fact: If there is to be sustained membership growth in a given community, there must be growth in units. Again from experience and mathematics. fact from experience: Units that don't draw kids die. Every unit has its own personality and not every kid who likes Scouts likes the way every unit does things or every kid in every unit. So give them choices. example: McDonald's figured out a long time ago that if you want to sell more hamburgers, you build more restaurants. Nevermind how close to each other they are. People will buy a cheesburger when they are hungry . . . if it is convenient to them and to their taste. The more units you have in a given area, the more Scouts you will have. Some units will be small, some units will be large. Some kids prefer the 7 boy Scout troop (not many, obviously, but some) and will shie away from the unit with 56 active Scouts. If the 7 kid unit is not available, we lose them altogether. Yes, I think sports play a factor, but we as Scout leaders need to explain to the parents and the Scout that they can participate in the sports program and should as much as they want to, but that they will not advance as quickly and that they should maintain their relationship with the troop. In other words, touch base when you're busy, do what you can, but don't expect to just "get" your Eagle because you were registered. The above paragraph is kind of inversly personal to me. I had no involvement in sports during my Boy Scout age years -- hated them in fact. The only place in the world I felt at home is the BSA. Strangely that has not changed. Most of the kids that earned Eagle at the age of 15-18 were also involved in other stuff and were more well rounded (although I could quote Shakespeare and they could not ) However, I was a 13 year old Scouting Geek and they were well-rounded teen-agers who earned Eagle . . . so there's a tradeoff there. My vote is to do what we can to allow Scouting to be a part of a well-rounded teen's life and not the center of it. It would be nice if it were centered, but in the meantime, sports can be a wonderful supplement to Scouting. Somewhere in this post my logic got twisted like an over-the-shoulder seat belt, but I hope you know what I mean. DS

SPL -- I believe you. To the others: His youthfulness has been questioned and I don't blame him a bit for this thread. Back to SPL: I admire what you're doing and that you've chosen to post here. However, there are several things that have taken me some time to learn about posting here and I would hope you can benefit from my experience and not take questions personally: 1) These forums welcome youth, but are mostly made up of adults. Many of us are skeptical of people we have never met, but who can address a bunch of people and hide behind pseudonyms. I don't think you're hiding anything except your name -- and feel that you are wise to do so. 2) The semi-anonymous format of these forums allows people to place their thoughts in the open without much fear of embarrassment. Some do so more than others. 3) In the past, some people have strongly mis-represented themselves in a variety of ways and that is what drives skepticism. I'll admit that I don't always take face value what someone says they are. I scrutinize writing styles, spelling errors and attitudes evidences as well as consistency among posts from the same person. I believe you are exactly what you say you are. Keep doing what you're doing, but maintain a thick skin and a positive attitude. And call me when you look to enter the Scouting profession. You're a natural . . . with the proper training. DS