dsteele

Merlyn Leroy said: "And PatBB, what would you think of an organization that allowed kids of all religions to join, but specifically said no Jews could be adult leaders (though anyone else was allowed); what do you think such an organization is telling the Jewish kids who belong to it?" I think that is a very offensive statement. It's beneath what I've read of Merlyn Leroy's posts so far in this thread. Atheists have no faith and there is no comparison worthy of note. This is simply an attempt to compare an exclusionary membership policy to historical atrocities commited against a faithful community.

I agree with the folks who said you need to get your committee et. al, behind you before you act. I also agree with hops_scout that the Den Leader should block or delete the offending emails. You, as Cubmaster, could expain to Mom that, now that her son's behavior is acceptable, she doesn't need to attend the den meetings anymore. Depending on how strongly you feel, you could make it sound like a suggestion that she not attend or a relief of a requirement. If she isn't welcome to participate in the den meetings, tell her she can't. That's just my thinking. Free advice is worth the price tag.

Geez . . .

That's what I get for thinking out loud.(This message has been edited by dsteele)

Just a thought from someone on the outside. Based on what you describe, there may be a win-win-win situation here. It seems you have some influence on the leadership suggestion, a COR, CEO, and CC who are mostly out of the picture. The cussing Cubmaster sounds like has the skills to be a committee chairman (the training and so forth, but not patience with the boys.) Don't wait. You have, from the sounds of it, the next Cubmaster. If you can talk the current Cubmaster into being the Committee Chairman and the incoming Cubmaster into doing the job early, the pack may turn around. Just a thought.

I haven't bought a Playboy for about 7 years, but if there's one on the coffee table, I figure I might as well catch up with the times.

The socks had no elastic and wouldn't stay up without the garters. Camp staffers were often seen with one or both socks bunched around their ankles due to a lost garter.

I was an older scout when they made the switch. My friends and I groused about the "new" uniforms. However, many of us found the "new" uniforms under our Christmas trees and started wearing them right away. I had the chance to serve on camp staff the following summer and quickly had a full supply of the "new" uniforms. It sure beat having your sox fall down if you happened to lose your garters

As long as your degree comes from an accredited college or university, the answer to your question is "no." DS

I prefer the poly/wool. They hold a press well -- although you'd better like it when you have it pressed. It stays pressed the way the original presser planned. If you take it to a dry cleaner for the first pressing, specify that you don't want a military press. If you don't you'll end up with a pressed crease down the center of the blouse for the career of it. They specify dry clean only, but I toss mine in the washer and iron with medium heat. I seem to go through them more quickly than the cotton or the poly/cotton, but the shaper look is worth it. Perhaps dry cleaning would extend the life. I don't know. I've never tried it. If you want a uniform that looks sharp and feels comfortable under any circumstance, go with the poly/wool. It's definately worth the money. DS

TwocubDad: Thanks for the great example. Expenses vary greatly across the country, as does what it pays for. That's what I've discovered in property taxes as well. Still haven't figured out what Ohio is going to give us at twice the price than Wisconsin gave us, but I bet there's something we're overlooking. If not, I've got some letters to write and phones to ring. Or is it wring? DS

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Slow down on the price wars, guys and gals! It may not be obvious to you, but it is to me. There are some big time differences from council to council regarding Day Camp prices and you have to make sure you're comparing apples to oranges. Some day camps have volunteer staffs and short windows. Does your district/council offer 1 session of day camp with a volunteer staff and bring your own meals? Those will be cheaper than multi-session day camps with paid staff. Are meals included? Price goes up. Does the pack provide walkers for the dens, or are they paid staff. Is bussing provided? T-shirts, cups, patches, even hats? All that stuff drives the price up or down. I've seen and worked with Day Camps across the board in Cub Scouting. Here are some major expenses that factor into the cost. Absence of one leads to a reduction in cost and the addition of one adds to the cost. Not all are equal, but all are important: Expenses: Staff -- free (volunteer) paid (expensive) or simply well recognized (with t-shirts and hats) Recognition items -- do the kids get t-shirts, cups, patch, etc.? Program supplies -- craft stuff, wood working supplies and tools, rope, nature books, whatever. Facility rental -- does the camp pay to use a park, or rent the council property, or pay for portajohns, or water, etc.? Transportation -- are busses provided? Seen that. Big expense. Entertainment for the rest period can be expensive. Food -- is the day camp providing meals and kitchen staff? More expense. Even if they're not, refrigeration for the lunches can be an additional expense. Training expense (often overlooked) the Camp Director, Program Director and business manager have to attend national camp school in order to be certified in order for the camp to open. It's in the price. If they repeat -- great. It's a 5 year certificate. Add a new one and you have a new expense. Promotion expense -- is there a Day camp promotion piece or video? That's an expense. Don't look at these things as price to price. You need to look at what's included and what's not when comparing prices. Day Camp to Day camp comparisons are not apples to apples. If all else asks, ask your day camp advisor to see the budget. DS

Dozer gave a good answer, but it was missing an "or." The following is from the most recent Boy Scout Application #28-209S (on older applications it's listed under Joining Requirements. On this one, it's listed on the inside cover under "parent information." "Parent Information. Your son can be a Scout if he has completed the fifth grade, OR is 11 years old, OR has earned the Arrow of Light Award, but has not reached age 18." A lot of boys turn 11 during fifth grade. I think the question referred to in the original post is simply an attempt to determine which percentage of Boy Scouts joined during fifth grade. Nothing more, nothing less. DS

I'm curious about volunteer perceptions of what professionals do on a day-to-day basis. I'm only interested in perceptions. Not cheap shots. This is not a scientific study and I'm not qualified to give an answer. Eamonn's example is good and I know what I do, but really don't know what we're perceived as doing.

I'm not a spokesman for the Boy Scouts of America and neither is anyone else here. However, I think the question has more to do with trying to determine how many 5th graders turn 11 during fifth grade than after. Marty quotes older Boy Scout joining requirements. They have been updated in the past couple of years, but are close. To be a Boy Scout a Scout must have completed the Arrow of Light, or have completed the 5th grade, or be 11 years old. Any one of the three conditions gets a boy in a troop. The question is, at the street level, do we recruit boys from the 5th grade mid-year -- they qualify if they're 11 -- or wait? If most boys entering troops are 11, but not yet done with 5th grade, the answer is an easy "yes." DS Bob White is correct in that the truthful answer is correct. The truth is what the BSA is looking for. D

Eamonn: I teared up reading the post. I know whereof you speak. My wife and I have no children of our own and love those that we serve. It causes pain to us when they are lost. But have faith that they are in a good place and that we have, in however small way, helped put them there. Mourn the young man, but review what you have learned from them. The rewards went both ways. Dave

Eamonn: I teared up reading the post. I know whereof you speak. My wife and I have no children of our own and love those that we serve. It causes pain to us when they are lost. But have faith that they are in a good place and that we have, in however small way, helped put them there. Mourn the young man, but review what you have learned from them. The rewards went both ways. Dave

I'll take a stab at what I think JB is getting at. One technique that I think is advanced leadership is listening to determine what the real problem or objection is. Some call it cutting to the chase. For example, I'm new to the district as Senior D.E. Got an email from a Cubmaster (we're rechartering in March) saying that his pack is dead and won't recharter. He's down to 5 boys. Three of the 5 are Webelos and are moving out next month to a troop. No one will help him, parents can't be bothered, the charter organization doesn't care etc. The district commissioner and myself met with him and suggested several things we can do to help the pack recharter and help it grow. The Cubmaster bashed down every idea we had. I figured out what the problem is -- this guy no longer wants to continue and has very probably scared away anyone who was interested in helping the program. I've seen it time and again. He's never met the pastor of the church which charters the pack. I talked to the pastor on the phone and meet with her tomorrow. She's very interested in doing spring recruiting and re-building the leadership base. I'm looking forward to helping increase her understanding of who gets to approve the leadership and helping her understand how the pack can grow. The district volunteer's instinct seemed to take the CM's messages on the face-level. It looked like he wants help. I don't think he wants help . . . I think he wants a parachute and I want to give him one. He has no kids in the program and only volunteered to help his old buddy the former Cubmaster, who left with his son for a troop last May. DS

Bob White correctly (as usual) listed the syllabus. The council I last served used it religiously and forbade merit badge counselors from counseling until they had gone through the orientation. I thought that was a little extreme, but it's always good to have the proper training before going to work. DS

There is insufficient information for me to give any advice of any value whatsoever regarding the Scoutmaster mentioned in this thread. However, I can tell you, Mrs. Smith, that a chat with your District Executive will cost you nothing and may enlighten him/her on many fronts regarding your son's troop. Have the chat. DS

Eamonn: You called me on it, so I'll respond. Yes, we did the quick kiss -- but I don't consider that fooling around. The stuff the ranger thought we were doing we never did until we were married. Dirty mind, that one had. Yoda I speak like, no? DS

IN my third year as assistant camp director, we had a 19 year old female nature director. She hit it off with a young DE and they very discretely got together. Tanya has been my wife of 12 years next month. It ain't all bad . . . and we never fooled around on camp time. DS

Very nice. I too believe. DS

Actually, I happened to be thinking of both Dirk Pitt and the actual author, Eagle Scout Clive Cussler as being great Scoutmaster candidates. Among other historical (or will be historical figures) I would count, Martin Luther King JR., Ronald W. Reagan, Wil Rogers, Fred Astaire, Maggie Thatcher (there's a grabber for ya,) Captain Kangaroo (Bob Keeshan -- although he would arguably have been a better Cubmaster) and either one of the Presidents Bush. I would select Howard Dean (I think he's the one. I can't keep democrats straight)to lead the campfire. He could give a heck of a cheer -- "YEEEEEEAAAAHHHHH!!!!!" DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

He's not a candidate, but he's a man I admire very much. Donald Rumsfeld is an Eagle Scout. I know it for a fact, but to my eyes, it also shows up in his bearing and manner. The man doesn't mess around. DS