dsteele

Welcome aboard Strawberry! I agree with Angela -- keep mentioning your Gold Award. My wife earned that award and, once I understood what she had to do to earn it, I had no trouble equating it to the Eagle Scout Award I earned. Impressive! Unc.

Alright Mr. Smartypants . . . I'll trump you with a hindu fire escape at 4 paces Unc.

Here in Ohio, as a new voter, I was a little bit nervous. While Uncleguinea isn't my name, what they did to my name was similar to calling me UncleGuiness . . .just different enough to make a difference. Evidently, Ohio has witnesses and challengers. Partisans who's job it is to make it more difficult for you to vote. Fortunately, I have flexibility in my work hours. I showed up to vote at 3:00 PM and was home by 3:20. The only guy that got really challenged was a democartic challenger. He walked in and the little old lady asked what precinct he lives in. He said, "I'm a challenger." She asked "Democrat or Republican?" He answered, "Democrat." Then she wanted to see id, voter registration (and I think) training card. I guess I live in one of the few republican precincts in northeastern Ohio. I was glad of it. "Who's in the White House???? Bush! Bush! Bush! ;)" Unc.

As long as we're having fun with this, oh yeah of littler faith . . . Bob, I think you need to learn more knots and up your prescription lenses. There are two wraps on the second class knot. It is indeed an overhand knot tied around a loop of rope. It is not a lark's head. Unc.

John: The answer I received at Philmont training surprised me, but made sense once they explained it. Let me start with what it is NOT. Don't waste your time calling the National Office. They're there to serve councils. Councils are there to serve you. Any idea or suggestion should go to your council service center via the appropriate committee. Call and ask who the advisor is and then write an email or send in documation of your idea to the staff advisor in writing (politely) asking that it be presented at the next meeting of that committee. Offer to come to the meeting to present the idea. If they think it's a good idea, they'll discuss it and pass it on. If they don't, I would hope they'd tell you. Unc.

Mark -- As much as I hate to see you lose a Scouting buddy . . . I've seen too many Scouting divorces. If the choice were family harmony, or all Scouting, all the time, the wise head chooses family. I'll pray that they both find a balance. Unc.

Sorry, Bob, I agree with Eamonn. It's not a larks head. I believe it is an overhand knot created by taking a loop of rope and wrapping it around itself in the manner of an overhand knot. I will accept correction only from a current member of the United States Navy, Coast Guard, or Merchant Marines -- or a veteran of any of those organizations. Of course, I checked the grand scheme of things and the symbolism of the knot is much more important than what kind of knot it is. Unc.

Okay -- I'll admit early that this interpretation of the alleged quote is a long shot on my part. I did minor in literature. A shield is a reactive device. A sword is a proactive device. We forge ahead into our freedom with only our wits about us (the sword.) We protect ourselves from enemy blows with a shield. Hmm . . . sure sounds like violence to me. "The price of freedom is that we carry not a shield, only a sword." Perhaps this would be better, "the price of freedom is that we need a flashlight rather than a tent." Unc.

There's probably not much worse than getting unsolicited advice on a side topic, but that's what I'm about to give. Please forgive me for being so bold. MTD -- you said, "I'm planning a COH, our Scout Exec will be in attendance ... " I'm pretty sure your Scout Executive would agree -- don't do anything with him there that you wouldn't do without him there. Remember, he's a guy like anyone else. Besides, giving a guy a 50-miler that he's earned is doing the right thing. I'm glad you're willing to check into it. I do have to agree that it is absolutely the right thing to do. Unc.

Bob White is correct. Online training has not gone away. In some councils, you can even recharter on the internet, although you still need signatures on paper. Youth Protection training can only be linked through your council's web site. This to make sure you get the local reporting procedures and recognition. Fast Start for Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Venturers can be linked through your council's web site or directly from natinal. Unc.

I also agree with most of Barry's post. The only thing I would change is the size of the vision. When I was a Scoutmaster (long ago) my vision was having 15-20 boys wearing full uniform at summer camp with the black Troop 725 neckerchiefs on each. In my vision (which is simply an acievable dream) the boys did right-dress-right, and front-dress-front and formed well-spaced rows. They did it at the command of the SPL, while I stood some distance away and simply beamed with pride at the boys. I dreamed this vision when I took over a troop of 5. One was a Hindu who used our ignorance of his religion to his advantage to get out of tasks, one was a Jewish boy who emulated the Hindu's style of getting out of work, one was a caucasian (who was my biggest problem) who tried every trick in the book to get away from my rule of no electronics, and two were brothers who could't think outside the box -- they were good kids, but not flexible at all. There was a lot of storming with that group. However, when they got to the performing stage -- three years later and after adding 18 more boys, I saw my vision happen. What a wonderful feeling! Like Barry, I love this Scouting stuff! Unc.

Time to doff my hat and bow to SW -- SW is correct. My appications aged while I wasn't watching them at their residence in the trunk of my car. Even your old uncle can be wrong once in a while. Time for a refill of my forms. Unc.

Kristi -- Please do use it. Please also realize that I haven't had a chance to field test my little syllabus yet. The Roundtable isn't going to be held for another week and a half. Proceed at your own risk, but I wish you the best of luck. Unc.

I'm sorry that you're having trouble and hopefully my advice can help in some small way. I've been asked to put on an informal training session in conjuction with our next district roundtable that I'm chosing to call "Getting the Parents to do stuff." It's about recruiting. Let me run my course outline (written entirely by me who's pen name is Been There, Done That.) I'll begin the one hour session with the objectives: By the end of this session you'll: Owe someone a favor Know how to "recruit to the task" Transform the useless into doing something. BTW -- this session is built on my experience as a membership chairman and as a commissioner. I've also organized many units. First -- I'll do the usual intro stuff. Make everyone feel comfortable. Then I'll ask them to separate themselves into two groups. I'd like the left-handers seated on the right side of the room and the right-handers seated on the left side of the room. They'll move around, although they won't know why. Then I'll ask them to raise their hand if they've ever been asked to do something they weren't sure they wanted to do, but liked it once they did it. Most will raise their hand. Then I'll ask them if they're receptive to the information I'm about to give out. I'll tell them that I'm going to walk around the room and that if I don't believe they're receptive, I'll tap them on the shoulder and send them into the regular roundtable session. They can leave quietly with dignity. Of course, I'll tap no one. They're going to be there because they want to learn this stuff. Then I'll have them open their eyes. I'll ask what they think I've been up to and put their answers on a flip chart. What I've done, I'll explain if it doesn't come out on it's own -- is GET THEM TO SAY YES TO ME, BY DOING A SIMPLE THING I REQUESTED -- three times in under 10 minutes. This will lead us to "recruiting to the task." There is a big-time difference between saying, "I need a treasurer," to a group and making a specific request to an individual who has been hand-chosen by however for the task. "Rich, the pack checkbook is a mess. Would you mind working with it for 30 days and giving a report to the committee at our meeting?" Rich will probably say yes. Now that he's straightened it out, 30 days later, he'll be much more receptive to the idea of keeping it up and that's called a treasurer. Recruiting an Assistant Cubmaster can be tough. Recruiting someone to run next month's pack meeting because you're not available is pretty easy. If you get the same guy to cover 2 or more pack meetings, pretty soon it's easy to convince them to take the title "assistant cubmaster" -- the guy who takes over the meetings when you're not available. Then we'll do a brainstorming session on typical scouting jobs that are really task related. Getting parents to attend outings, do committee-type functions (i.e. picking up advancement, filing tour permits, etc.) Then I'm going to give homework and a real world assignment. I'll ask them to pair off. I'll tell each pair that they have to solicit a favor from the other person (help me rake my lawn on Saturday, drive to my outing next weekend, whatever it may be.) I'll also tell them that they have to do the other guy a favor of a similar nature and scale. This is called recuiting. However, there is never recruiting without cost. If you ask someone to help you, they need to get something in return. Sometimes that return involves you doing a favor for them, sometimes (most often) the favor is the satisfaction they get from having done a good thing for someone else. Bottom line -- recruit to the task and let the job sort itself out later, don't do it all yourself, and finally, make it a group effort. If you think about "I" as a physical, actually letter standing alone in a field . . . it's pretty easy to topple. However, "We" or "Us" n the same context is pretty tough to knock down. Unc.

Eamonn: You know I'm not a parent. I don't give advice as a parent. But I do give advice as a Scout leader. OJ will be 17 when he attends the trip. He already has his own opinion of how Scouting should work. This vision of his is probably largely, but not entirely, based on the vision you have given him as a father and a Scout leader yourself. I say you let him go on the trip. For good or ill, with OJ, your parenting is 90% done. Easy for me to say . . . I'm not his Dad. Unc.

Eamonn: Here are some probably unexpected answers to your question. They're coming from an admittedly twisted mind, so please consider the source. They certainly won't pass muster for a United Way concerned with "Outcomes Measurement" Pah! Which I won't go into in this thread . . . When I was informed by the owner of a Ben Franklin craft store in Illinois that a Scout had tried to shoplift, the owner called the kid's Scoutmaster. She felt he had the most influence over the boy. Not his parents, not his coach . . . she called the Scoutmaster. I count that a troop success. When a Scout gives back cash to a clerk who hands him too much change, whether the Scout is 12 of 112, I count that a success. When a Scout or former Scout goes out of his way to help someone, we have been successful. When we find out that one of our co-workers is an Eagle Scout and we smile because that explains why he's such and exemplary individual . . . we have been successful. Now let's look at the flip side. Here's when I feel we've failed as an organization. When I hear, "I was never a Scout. No one ever asked me." or "There was no troop in town." Or "I tried it, but I didn't like it." or "I was a Cub Scout, but didn't like crafts so I never joined the troop." When I hear that so-and-so is an Eagle Scout and I go "That guy?! No way!" This doesn't happen often, but it happened on one notable occasion. That one lessens all of us. This Scouting stuff works. Measuring it isn't easy. Unc.

Page 4 I won't retype all the bullet points here, but page 4 of the application outlines and expresses (I'll summarize) Bang -- "partisan political activities are prohibited" Bang -- pertains to military drill Bang -- pertains to religious faith and non-secretarian Bang -- two deep leadership Bang -- corporal punishment (don't do it.) Bang -- one on one activities not permited Bang -- child abuse, what to do if suspected Bang -- no secret organziations Then we go into the Declaration of Religious Principle Then the Policy of Nondiscrimination -- you must meet the BSA membership requirements and if you do, we have to let you in. Then, Ethnic Codes. It explains that "BSA receives inquiries from various agencies regarding racial composition." Ironically, the last paragraph of page 4 thanks the parent for taking the time to become familiar with the BSA. I think that's thanking them for reading the pages. How many parents get the chance to read them? I can tell you that now that I've taken the time to study them, every parent I sign up will get the chance. I'm guilty of just getting the job done and registering the kids. I've even thrown away the first two pieces of paper (4 pages) before the parent even touched them. Unc.

Page 3 of the BSA Application Welcomes the parents to the BSA and informs them that there are more than 4 million members Has a paragraph about the BSA and the Cahrtered Organization -- what the responsibilities are. Has a section on Scouting's Volunteers and You -- extolling parents to take part. It also describes, in a few sentences, what the purpose of the program is. Then it goes into Program Policies. The following bullet points are listed and quoted here: Bang! "Leadership is restricted to qualified adults who subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principle, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law. Now on to Page 4 (BTW -- if this particular lecture is boring you, please click on your back button and return to your item of interest.) I'm not trying to talk down to you, I'm trying to get you to show parents what's on the application they're signing. I'm almost done. Unc.

Page 2 of the application: Contains a temporary membership certificate (and buried in there, the information that you're supposed to present a membership certificate when you buy the uniform although few seem to require it.) There is also the joining requirements as I mentioned previously. There are also instructions for the Scoutmaster "Scoutmaster. (1) Complete and sign form; (2) retain troop copy and forward the other copy to local council service center with proper fees; and (3) sign Temporary Membership Certicifact and present to member." I think it's a very nice job on National's part that when you cut out the temporary membership certificate on page 2 and hand it to the Scout, you have also handed him a copy of the Scout Oath and Law. Dang! Those guys have brains or luck, depending on your point of view Let's look at page 3 next.

So what information is contained in the first two pages -- the ones normally tossed aside and ignored by parents and Scouters alike -- of the Boy Scout Application? I've got one in front of me and find several interesting things. These are often topics of discussion that come up in these forums that people say, "Hey, I didn't know." They could have. Don't just toss those introductory pages. On the cover (these things interst me and I'll confess I haven't used them all.) There's a spot on the left side that reads, "I want to be a Scout. I have read the Scout Oath or Pomise and the Scout Law. As a Boy Scout, I will meet the obligations of living by the Scout Oath or Promise and will regularly attend all meetings and activities of my Scout troop." Then there's a spot for the kid to sign it. Wouldn't it be great if we used that? The Scout Oath and Law are on that page for the prospective Scout to read as is the definition of the uniform. I'd rather make shorter posts than longer, so the next post I write will describe page 2 of the application. Unc.

My advice (which I follow myself) is to get rid of your Boy Scout Applications every August and replenish your supply with fresh ones at the Scout office. It seems like they get revised all the time. I've also been told that the council doesn't pay for those. National does. Somehow, I don't feel so bad throwing out the old ones once I found that out. It seems like it takes forever for old forms in the BSA to disapear, but that's a topic for a different thread. According to the fresh application I have in front of me, on the inside front cover, it says, "Parent Information. Your son can be a Scout if he has completed the 5th grade, or is 11 years old, or has earned the Arrow of Light Award, but is not yet reached 18." On a side note, I think it's interesting that most Scout leaders and parents disregard or don't ever read the inside cover of the Boy Scout application. In fact, I think I'll start a spin-off . . . Unc.

Shucks. T'weren't nothin'. Thanks. Unc.

Timber: Welcome to the forums. I like you already. Unc.

Perhaps it may kick-start things if I delve a bit into my memory and what I've heard. In case you didn't know, I've been kicking around in the Boy Scouts of America for several years. Here is a brief list of what used to be heresy and forbidden in the BS of A that is now not only permitted, but encouraged on some level: Cub Scout Camping Tiger Cubs wearing neckerchiefs Tiger Cubs being part of the pack Two deep leadership (wasn't around when I was a kid.) Youth Protection Training for youth and adult (unheard of in 1973) National Youth Leadership Training (new and current syllabus) Wood Badge for the 21st Century My point is that changes come and changes get adopted as status quo then changes go. I am NOT saying that we should play with the programs of the BSA willy-nilly. I am saying that looking at things in a different light is good and that changes should be suggested within the system. I think that "When did it actually work?" is a perfectly valid question and am interested in how, why and when you decided to try something new if it worked. I would suggest, however, that you have a pretty good reason for why you departed from the norm . . . just to appease the old timers. Unc. (I have a feeling my msn mailbox is going to hear about this post.) UG

This would be the specific request for advice that I was looking for in another thread (as opposed to a hypothetical.) If I were in Kristi's shoes, here are the steps I would take. 1) Accept the Cubmaster position and finalize it by completing a new adult application, securing the proper signatures, and regstering at the council service center. 2) spend about $4.00 each for a full set of Program Helps for each Den leader and Assistant. 3) Find out who the committee chairman of record is and get him or her to conduct a committee meeting to plan the next month of meetings. Prepare a schedule to roll out at that meeting. 4) Familiarize myself with the Program Helps booklet and make sure I was using the monthly themes -- that match the suggested themes for the den meetings. 5) If the committee chairman were on paper only, and not interested in conducting a meeting, I would call the den leaders and meet with them on my own. At that meeting, I would go over how to read the program helps, strongly suggest that they follow the plan, and assign each den a part of the themed pack meeting as lined up in the program helps. 6) During the month, check with each den leader to make sure they understand the program helps and are using them. No need to beat or cajole -- you're just offering assistance by helping them to follow the "new" pack program. These steps can go a long way toward beginning to follow the program. BTW -- Program Helps are provided 30 days at a time in Scouting Magazine for registered Cubmasters, Den Leaders, Tiger Den Leaders, and possibly Assistant Den Leaders. However, you can buy an entire year at your Scout Shop for about $4.00. I suggest strongly that you do. Best of luck. I hope this helps. Unc.