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OK... a pet peeve... yelling "Signs Up!"

This is Scouting. Taken two days ago at just above 3250 feet at Middle Lion Camp in the Los Padres NF above Ojai, Ca. The group stayed there after hiking in, and woke up to snow. And they loved it. The scout is part of an all girl unit, though they do on occasion work with other units.

Yesterday my attorneys contacted me and informed me that my claim amount had been determined. After years of anxiety about what the outcome (I truly believed I deserved the maximum amount) my claim came in at 2.67 million. Yes, I know I will most like only get a fraction of that amount but the fact that my pain and suffering was valued at that amount is the most important aspect. In all honesty I cried, just like after 50 years of telling not one soul I finally opened up about what had happened to me. With the appeals and the court cases that may come up I know that this is not over yet, but I finally feel like I have crossed third base, and I am on my way to home plate. Over the past 22 hours I have thought quite a bit about how I have survived these past 6 years and the people that have given me moral support. I have reached out to those folks and thanked them. I now want to reach out to my survivor community on this forum and say thank you, without all of you I do not know how I would have made it. Thank you to Scouter Forum for giving me a place to vent my frustrations, state my opinions and allow me to interact with other survivors and not kicking me off the site. Thank you, moderators, for your patience. I am sure some of my posts made some of you cringe. I want to thank @ThenNow for always having my backside no matter how outrageous some of my posts were. Our DM's to each other always made me feel like I had a brother standing next to me. I want to thank the TCC (I am sure there are members here on Scouter Forum). I know that all of you took on an almost impossible thankless task that was never going to please everyone. One last thing (at least for now) @skeptic please no sad or confused faces. Maybe this will be the one post that you can give a green up arrow to that I have written. Thank you all, John

Unpopular opinion I'm sure, but: Eagle Scouts who can't congratulate a new Eagle without making it about themselves and mentioning that they are an Eagle (usually along with the year they earned it as well). Why not just a "Congrats, huge achievement, best of luck in your future endeavors."

Had a good conversation with our COR last nite. Helps he is also a former SM and knows all the challenges I face in that role. We are on the verge of folding. He know it, our adults know it, and the Scouts may know it. We need one more Scout in order to recharter, and we are going full throttle on recruiting. Our DE says they can help us get into the schools. I hope that is true and he follows through, but the council's record on that is poor. But as Gandalf the White said, " There is always hope, a fool's hope." We will be doing our annual fundraiser as if we will be rechartering. Goal is to raise enough money to pay national and council fees, and summer camp. We will continue Scouting on. Back up plan is if the troop does not recharter, pay for everyone's, both adults and youth, registration and council fees, pay for summer camp, and save the rest to restart the troop at a later date. I am sticking around as SM until December 2026. I have idea on someone to replace me, but want to get them up to speed.

Tomorrow I head off on my first Scout week trip since the summer I turned 19. Back then, the troop consisted of my Scoutmaster who had been in the troop since 1933, the ASM who had been in since around 1960, my friend and fellow 18 y/o ASM, me, and three kids we recruited out of the 5th grade class of our old school at the beginning of the school year. We had a great time at our old camp - water skiing, motorboating, pioneering, a float trip, an overnight canoe trip, and various evening activities. I haven't been to a council camp/merit badge factory since the summer before I quit Scouting in 6th grade. We'll see how this goes. It's my son's first one. I intend to keep my distance from him as much as possible. He'll need to be his own person at the end of July when he attends another camp.

An April evening... Troop 544 was having their weekly meeting at their Scout Hut when law enforcement arrived to report a missing autistic child in the area. The scouts quickly organized into search patrols led by older members and an assistant scoutmaster. As temperatures dropped and daylight faded, the group found the child hiding in bushes and stayed with him to offer comfort until first responders arrived. Scout Salute, More at source including photos and map. https://www.nwfdailynews.com/story/news/local/2025/05/21/scout-troop-honored-by-okaloosa-commission-for-helping-to-find-child/83773869007/

So you you may have remembered I was depressed because it seemed one of my Scouts had given up. He had about 2 weeks before 18 and still needed a projected and 3 MBs. HE MADE IT! (And yes, I am shouting with joy!) He was able to get his project approved and completed within 10 days. Even had a nice write up about it too. As fro the MBs, he was able to find his paperwork from his old troop on one of them, one was finished at the meeting, and one was finished right before getting everything approved for BOR. He had the paperwork, but could not find it in time for the meeting. Just waiting for the EBOR. And we may be growing We had 2 Scouts visit this past month, and two more are scheduled to visit this week. Life is good.

Having worked in various joint commands in plans (J5), exercise (J7), and operations shops (J3), I have to tell you these things are FAR from free. Military exercises, deployments, employments, redeployment, and reconstitution (after the fact) are quite expensive, in fact. Literally hundreds of millions of your tax dollars are spent on these each year to maintain unit readiness. Difficult to stage? yes... Scarcity of opportunity? no. Quite the opposite. Military commands at all levels routinely have to cut exercises and practices from their schedules to support various "hobby horses" or "pet projects" the military is tasked to support based on political pressure. The National Jamboree is a good example of such a "pet project." Do the units supporting these get good training? Absolutely. Could the resources spent on the Jamboree be better used supporting other valid military training objectives? Absolutely. Do I support the use of military resources to enable the Jamboree? Absolutely 😜 (Sometimes the troops would rather support something at home like this, rather than flying to a third world country to practice their "wartime" skills there.)

In my opinion this is a sign of burnout in the leadership. In my opinion you want to meet every week unless a holiday falls exactly on the meeting day. What I have seen personally is that units who are looking for these excuses are suffering burnout in the leadership. The two week gap screams to me that the leadership is burned out and that their scouts are probably in a situation where they don't need the meetings to advance so it's just a burden meeting to those families.

I cringed when I read the term "Family Troop". My initial reaction was, "there's the final nail in the coffin of the Patrol Method".

Adults wearing Eagle rank patches. Not the square knot, the oval. And I'd personally let it slide for an 18 or 19-year-old, but I'm seeing too many 50-something men wearing an oval Eagle rank patch.

Professional scouters that have clearly set goals that focus on raising money (for what nobody knows) rather than focusing on actually growing the program A National Organization that continues to believe the infrastructure needs to be reflective of the 70's (almost 5 million) rather than today (less than 1 million). Get rid of councils and overhead.

There's two things here, maybe related, maybe not. As an outsider with few years dealing with BSA (not involved with the settlement at all) I see things more from a corporate and legal lens. I agree with the assessment that doing the settlement fund piecemeal (going after councils, CO's, etc ... ) would have created a vast array of have and have nots. So many guilty parties (councils, units, charter orgs, perps) no longer exist, which would have prevented victims from seeking any restitution. I still struggle with these funded vs hypothesized fund numbers. What I know of nationals resources and debt and the councils local to me is that there really isn't much money out there, especially at the councils whom are mostly operating hand-to-mouth. To the discussion of Scouting America being around in the future; I have no doubt that Scouting America will be here in 100 years. I do think Scouting America will look a lot different, a lot more like how I understand scouting was 100 years ago. I think national is going to have to divest itself of a lot of physical property in order to get out of debt; maybe only Philmont surviving. I think the number of councils is going to shrink down to less than 100 (I think this will happen in the next 10 years). I think the number of council owned properties (camps) is probably going to shrink down to around 50 and start to get run more by professional adult camp staff and less by summer volunteers on a 4 season operational plan (the days of 7-9 weeks of summer camp run by barely paid OA seeking volunteers is coming to an end).

In 1989 when aged based patrols became the recommendation instead of Traditional, mixed aged patrols, that was the beginning of fall of the Patrol Method. In 2012, when they no longer allowed patrols to camp on their own without adult supervision, that furthered the fall. In 2018 when they no longer allowed patrols to have any day activities, i.e. patrol meetings, hikes, camp shopping etc, unless 2 registered adults over the age of 21, that nailed the coffin shut IMHO.

Going from memory here, so bear with me. One of the reasons for better quality control is that there are a lot fewer professionals, so there is no pressure to increase membership numbers. As a result volunteers are empowered more to do things. If a group of volunteers want to clean up camp to prepare for an event, they contact the camp warden (ranger) and Bob's your uncle, you can do it. I know of councils where you have to go through the council office and SE in order to have a work day, and they may even deny it! Another thing is that their standards when I was there had not changed. "One and Done" was not a thing. Emphasis on advancement, and Queen's Scout was not existent, compared to the pressure in the US. I have had folks tell me HA is a was a of time because there is little to no advancement involved. Instead their focus was on skills and adventure. Finally, they held their Scouts to higher expectations/standards. It was not uncommon for their Scouts and Ventures to go on a week long expedition without any adult supervision as part of the DoE Award program. Even today they do "Remote Supervision" as defined as: "Remote [Supervision] ‑ Where the Supervisor remains out of sight and hearing of the team and allows them to get on with the expedition without any intervention ‑ The Supervisor will have a good idea of roughly where the team are and how they are progressing ‑ This is the norm for the majority of practice expeditions and all qualifying expeditions. It allows the Supervisor to: ◦ Periodically observe the team without intervening ◦ Allow the team to make mistakes and to recover from them without outside intervention ◦ Support the team by remaining remote yet in the expedition area and able to intervene if absolutely necessary or if requested."

Here's a slight modification to @Eagle1993's comment about ditching the lions and tigers. Cubscouts was originally meant to be pre scouts, not it's own thing. The question is what would a cub program look like if the goal were to get every scout to bridge over? Just my guess but a 3 year program that was fair weather camping would be a start. Very little else. If the goal is to camp or play outdoors from May to September then it's pretty easy. Tie it to the troop so those kids see the scouts doing their thing. The UK has "groups" where each group has all age ranges covered. So make a group where, up front, the expectation is to prepare cubs and parents to be camping with the troop. Parents need to learn how to camp, how to have fun singing silly songs at camp fires, how to cook in the outdoors. Yes, the scouts need to learn this as well but that's obvious. Those 3 years are to teach the parents what scouting is about while they have fun with their kids. The pinewood derby is not important. The pins are not important. The badges and patches are not important. Learning how to have fun with your kids in the outdoors is important. That would be much easier on the parents than putting on a weekly program for kids that aren't mature, can't sit still and really need to burn a lot of energy. Final comment is that cubscouts is where cubs camp with their parents. Scouts is where they don't. Sure, slight modification would be a major change. I'm not sure what would happen with single parents and siblings and all that. Those are the details where the devil lies. My kids have their own now, so I'm probably the wrong person to ask anyway.

Thank you for the well wishes. Truly. Though I'm still barefooted on the floor attempting to navigate the final stanzas of this treacherous waltz with Kaa (through shards of my life and the lives of others), I'll take any encouragement offered. So, 1908 days after the Chapter 11 filing and 1755 days after submitting my Proof of Claim, I received my Allowed Abuse Claim letter. Who's counting, right? Living through many forms of abuse starting at the age of 3, spent many years drowning in self-medicating techniques through diverse (and sometimes creative) maladaptive behaviors. Along the path I've had my share of so-called, 'out of body experiences.' I have officially added reading that letter to the list. Whatever that means to you and however you envision it, that was surreal. I meandered around for hours then days, experiencing more manic, sleepless nights thinking, writing and, again, trying to avoid feeling it all yet again. The non-monetary narrative section placed me, appropriately, in the Tier One, penetration, category. Is that a "YAY!" moment? I suppose one celebrates such a thing, as twisted and morbid as that it surely is. The letter, signed by Randi Roth, the Claims Administrator, said in pertinent part: "Allowable" Claim. The Trust assesses seven basic eligibility criteria to determine whether your claim is "allowable." They include: (1) your submission was timely; (2) there was no previous resolution of your claim in litigation or another process; (3) you stated the acts of abuse that were suffered; (4) you established your connection to Scouting and showed that BSA, a local council, or certain Chartered Organizations may have been legally responsible for your abuse; (5) you sufficiently identified your abuser(s) and your abuser's connection to Scouting; (6) you provided the approximate date of your abuse (or your age at the time of abuse): and (7) you provided the location of the abuse. Once the Trust determined that your claim was "allowable," the Trust turned to calculating the "Proposed Allowed Claim Amount.. There are many aggravating factors listed in the TDP. In your case, ten of them applied: extended duration of the abuse; extended frequency of the abuse; you were exploited for child pornography; multiple abusers involved in sexual misconduct; adverse impacts to your mental health; adverse impacts to your physical health; adverse impacts to your interpersonal relationships; adverse impacts to your vocational capacity; adverse impacts to your academic capacity; and impacts resulting in your legal difficulties." Wee. I have been validated. More balloons, streamers, cupcakes, pink punch and party favors? The single Mitigating Factor applied was the dreaded Statute of Limitations, though they used the most favorable option since I was abused in three states. Still, per a very helpful and knowledgeable Claim Administrations Advisor, it's doubtful an attorney actual read and researched the substance of my argument for tolling of the appropriately abbreviated, SoL based on fraudulent concealment. That means I stay in the game and prepare my Request for Reconsideration of the tolling argument. For me, it's worth another at bat on this key factor in the final award determination. Thus concludes this grunt's update from the war zone. I have not yet found a DMZ. Please hold hope and carry on all of you survivor claimants, my friends and fellows, still out here with me. Per usual, forgive my speed typos.

I don't understand. It appears your troop is a lifeboat for this scout and scouts like him. Our troop averaged one scout transfer per month because of our program reputation. Many were friends of scouts in our troop. Council often referred out-of-state transfers to us . These scouts lack of skills can be challenging, but I always found them and their parents enthusiastic and great supporters for our program. I'm so thankful for your service. Barry

An Eagle in my neck of the woods, when asked what he learned from doing his project, responded, "Paperwork will suck the joy out of anything you love." As for PowerPoint Presentations, not for the project approval or for the EBOR, but other things related to the project could require them. One Eagle I had went to a foundation for a grant to do his project. They wanted him to do a PPT to the board in order to get approval for it. He submitted the PPT to the foundation director, and presented his case for his project. He got the funding. THAT IS AN UNDERSTATEMENT!!!!!!! (emphasis, not shouting at you) My tech savy son, who is now a computer science major, told me the program completely whacked when it come to photos. Whenever we talk to Life Scouts about project workbooks, we tell them do not worry about the photos in the workbook, add them to the end of it as individual photos.

Always refer to the G2A ... Guide To Advancement. In my view ... The Eagle Project is about service and leadership in doing that service. The workbook is well laid out and explicitly describes the steps. The project is enough in and of itself. Adding troop unique expectations makes the Eagle Project more about jumping hoops and than giving service. IMHO, we teach bad lessons when we make advancement about jumping hoops. Not required and can't be required ... but troops still do it. Is it harmful? Mostly no. Is this a hill to die on either direction? No. Is it a good idea? No, but I flip flop and can see both sides. Does it help the scout? Maybe a few scouts, but mostly no. The scout MUST fill out the Eagle Project Workbook in detail. That is the scout's commitment. A PowerPoint is extra and just decorative. Committees ... chair or designee(s) ... must review the workbook. That is what is being signed and is effectively a contract. A PowerPoint presentation is NOT what is being signed off. I've had scouts show me their PowerPoint presentation required by their troop. I sat nicely and listened. ... THEN, we went section by section thru the workbook write-up because that is the commitment. Bad ... Could be the unrequired extra hoop to jump thru that causes a scout to give up on Eagle. Good ... Might give some scouts presentation practice that helps scouts later in the process ... IMHO this is a big stretch. Why do troops do it? Biggest reason I've seen is the worst because it does not match Guide To Advancement. Troops justify it as it gives scouts experience presenting to groups and talking in front of groups. IMHO, that's what the Communications MB is about. That's what the rest of the scouting program is about. Eagle project is about service and leading that service. IMHO, it smells more of committee self-importance. If a troop wants to do it, it's not a hill to die on. Smile nicely. Listen. Don't promote the practice and point out the scout requirements are in the Eagle project workbook and the Guide To Advancement. ... Sorry if I am long winded. This was a hot button topic for me as I've been involved in many Eagle project proposal reviews.

So if a scout can take off and work on MBs at a camporee, what does the rest of his or her patrol do without that scout? So much for patrol method. There's sort of a win all you can mindset but my guess is that not understanding the benefits of the patrol method is a bigger problem. I heard an interview with someone that studies youth problems with changing technology. It was like they were begging for something just like the patrol method. The idea of a gang of kids, where the older ones look out for the younger ones and teach them the rules of society started fading with the advent of computers as entertainment. Lack of social skills, depression, etc. Smart phones made it that much worse. Their biggest fear is when parents can buy AI "friends" for their children. They'll never have to talk to real people! To be honest, I think there's another problem. I'm a grandparent with 3 grandkids aged 2 and under. Of all the people I knew that were parents while my kids were living at home, most don't have grandkids. Few of their children want children. Maybe they're too busy earning "MBs"? I admit that it's expensive and difficult to find the time, but, when it comes to a high adventure trip, having kids is really one of the best. Both my kids are in the not enough sleep phase but they love their kids. It's wonderful for me to watch. Both of my kids live in town. It's been an insane winter of colds and my wife and I are always on call. I've been sick more this winter than I can remember. I also love that I can spend this time with my family. I wouldn't call it quality time but some day, after I'm gone, I hope my grandkids have fond memories of playing with me. Bottom line: MBs are easy, life is not. Life is an adventure, MBs are not. MBs are worn on your sleeve, good memories are worn on your soul.

I taught at 1 MBU, and was never asked back. I told the folks running it, it would be a partial UNLESS the Scout did work before hand to do the stuff I was unable to do at the event. out of about 50- 60 people in 2 sessions, 1 person did the work before coming to the MBU. Another Scout contacted me after the event with the work. No one else contacted me about the badge. And the folks running it never asked me again. Same event, but a friend's encounter. Crime Prevention MB had a disruptive Scout. Was sent out after a few problems. At the end of the day, complains he never got Crime Prevention MB that he "Paid for." Thankfully my district knows not to convert a camporee into a MBU. They did that 1 year. Attendance was poor, and only 2 units liked it.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. —Martin Niemöller

I too used to, stress USED TO, do that. But was informed that unless the requirement specifically states you cannot use an activity for more than one requirement, you gotta accept it. I am waiting for the duel enrolled Girl Scout/Scouting America Scout to do one project for both their Gold Award and Eagle.

I had a pretty traditional Scouting experience that culminated in earning the Eagle Scout award after I had a lot of fun and finally got around to the paperwork. One of my best my friends could be described as a "Paper Eagle." He made it through the program with very little camping and had everything wrapped up by high school so he could focus more on academics. Today, he's a professor at a prestigious university and travels the world to present his research. He is absolutely someone we'd want to represent the program. Scouting just means different things to different people and we all have to be OK with that for the BSA to survive.

Kennedy isn't hard to find. I reached out online and shared your post. His comment was "I don't know why this person seems to have a vendetta against me. I hope he finds peace. We knew we wouldn't make everyone happy but I do appreciate the people who have kept in touch with all the TCC members and showed their appreciation. I haven't commented on the settlement publicly in a very long time and like others, I'm waiting for a decision on the appeal. So others know, I have not received A DIME from this settlement. I've heard nothing from the Trust regarding an award. I also have NOTHING to do with the Catholic Church. My lawsuit prior to the bankruptcy was against the BSA, local council, and my abuser; NOT the Catholic Church. Anyone who cares can search the New York State cases online and see those details. I filed as John Doe but it was the first BSA lawsuit after the window opened. Frankly, if I'm the last one to see a dollar from this I'm okay with that and anyone who says differently doesn't know me and is just plain wrong." My own two cents.... I get why people feel pro and con about the settlement. So much is the product of a bankruptcy system NOT designed for the Survivors of child sexual abuse. As far as Saint Kosnoff having all the answers, I can only shake my head at the reality that the BSA put its bets on the Coalition, of which Mr. Kosnoff was an initial member before the Court expedited his removal in an agreement with the remaining Coalition leaders. The Coalition, despite representing 65% of the total claims, then failed to deliver the remaining 10% of the needsd votes. This cost all Survivors a year and who knows how many died in the interim. But maybe the Coalition firms don't care because the claims live on, and so too does the 33-40% contingency to those firms. And the capper, the Court just issued a verdict that the Coalition should receive ZERO dollars from the BSA because their work provided NO substantial contribution and was duplicative of the work already being done by the TCC and other parties. Whether you love or hate the plan, facts matter. Here's some other facts that I'm sure will piss people off. At the time that the BSA declared bankruptcy some Survivors were days away from their cases going to court, those in open States lost their individual cases and what could have been a big award, and those in "closed" States had zero path to a lawsuit being heard in court. But, the plan included a one-year period when Survivors could mobilize in their States and have the SOLs changed so they'd be in a better matrix position. That happened in some States and continues to happen, perhaps too late for this bankruptcy but now allowing suits against abusers and other entities. That's equity and not equality; but was the reality at the time of the bankruptcy. That's "business" and not justice. That's bankruptcy. I don't like it and in a perfect world there would have been no closed States and a bottomless pit of money. Neither was the case then, or now. This whole "liquidate the BSA" fantasy is just that. Survivors are UNSECURED creditors and will be left fighting over the scraps after SECURED creditors are satisfied. As well, if that happens you'd better like your attorney and they'd better be ready to get your case heard ASAP before other BIG awards wipe out the available money. Oh, you're going to sue the insurance companies? You'd better be prepared to wait 7-10 years for that settlement AND hope others haven't beaten you to the policy limits. Uh...and if your attorney has hundreds or thousands of clients, start thinking about how you'll get in line early before every other Survivor who wants to do the same. It won't happen if your case needs a ton of discovery and work or is of low "value." Lastly, if you think the insurers will sit around forever waiting to pay, guess what, if the amount of claims exceeds their assets (like was the case with Century Insurers), they'll do this....file for bankruptcy and go into "runoff", again leaving some with nothing. I'm sorry to be a downer. I just want some who think the solution is for this plan to go up in flames to understand that some scenarios might be missing a bit of reality. Feel free to rip me up. I'm not going to debate hypotheticals. I'll see you after the appellate court chimes in and we can discuss reality. PS, the court is going to deny the appeal 😉

Because you care? And maybe because it's extra-rewarding to see a scout that has faced challenges be able to accomplish the 'top achievement'? It also sounds like you know this scout a bit more than perhaps others. A scout in our Troop went from not being able to write a paragraph without the lines drifting across the page, to taking AP European History. I think it's natural for us to root for the 'underdog' and want them to reach 'the pinnacle'.

Update 01/07/2025: The Court ruled that the proceeds from the sale, if it moves forward, can only be used as specified in the 1944 donor's deed when the Scouts were given the property: “for uses that support camping activities for Boy Scouts in Central Maine.” Council may not use proceeds to pay down debt or fund program services elsewhere in Maine. “Consequently, it would defy logic and nullify the law favoring charitable trusts to conclude that the (donor of the Camp Bomazeen property) intended to ‘reward’ Pine Tree with full title to Camp Bomazeen upon its absolute failure to follow his directions,” the justices wrote in their decision. "The state attorney general’s office sued the Pine Tree Council to block the sale of the camp, saying its plans to sell it and use the proceeds to help the council get out of debt violated the terms of the the deed to the property in place since it was donated by Dr. George Averill in the 1940s as a place where Scouts could camp." Source (good read): https://www.centralmaine.com/2025/01/07/camp-bomazeen-sale-must-benefit-central-maine-boy-scouts-court-says/

Your idea isn't new; the BSA has made these kinds of promises since the creation of the program. I do agree that at this age, cost isn't as much of an issue as the cub program, but a results-based program is very subjective. And most of the time the adults go the easy route of Eagle for their results-based program. However, youth at this age aren't advancement-driven. I found that most Eagle-driven programs lose 70% of their scouts by age 15 because advancement gets boring. Adventure-driven programs thrive because they are fun in the outdoors, and because independence in the patrol method drives more maturity in their growth. Go look at units where scouts age out, and you will find they are more scout-run with adventure. Also, adventure-driven programs typically have a high number of Eagles because the scouts are in the program a long time and earn the Eagle requirements by simply participating. Barry

Putting on my Membership Chairman hat. Almost 95% of scouts in troops come from the Cubs. If the youth aren't recruited in Cubs, the troops will have to recruit from other sources. When National added additional requirements to the Tiger program in 2000 (increasing meetings to every week, an adult required for each scout), many units were unable to meet the new demands, and the Tiger numbers dropped significantly. That drop became obvious in 2005 when the troop membership suddenly dropped. If you don't get the Cubs, you don't get the crossovers. Barry

There is one thing that you can do... Do not participate in the masquerade. You are only responsible for what you do, so maintain your integrity, and do not sign off anything you know you shouldn't. I have made many a Scout a little frustrated and many a parent perhaps a little angry when I refused to sign off something that I did not personally see or test. Scout: "I tied a diagonal lashing on the camping trip last weekend!" Me: "Excellent, let me see it you do it again." <Scout cannot tie a diagonal lashing.> Me: "OK, let's review how to do this lashing." <demonstrates> <Scout ties diagonal lashing.> "Ok, will you sign me off on that?" Me: "Yes, I will sign you off next week when you show it to me again. Practice and read your Scout Handbook if you need any more pointers." <Next week, Scout cannot tie diagonal lashing.> <Wash, rinse, repeat.> At some point, I get push back from parents or even other leaders. Then, I pull out the Scout Handbook and reference the four steps of advancement. (which every Scout must know, as a requirement for the Scout badge.) 1. You learn. ..."you learn and practice skills that are required for advancement..." 2. You are tested. "Once you feel that you have mastered a skill, a leader tests you and passes you on the requirement." I explain that, in my world of Scouting, if a Scout cannot tie a diagonal lashing from one week to the next, then he has not mastered that skill. There are other leaders who do sign off something immediately, or upon the Scout saying he has done it, without seeing a demonstration of mastery. I am only responsible for what I do.

One reason why Scouting America doesn't cut off Scouting at 13 or 14, and makes Venturing the next stage, (emphasis) if you look at older, pre 1989 BSA literature. The middle schoolers look up to, and learn from the highschoolers. They will usually be the ones elected into leadership roles. Traditional, aka Mixed Age Patrols, were the standard. Unless you were LDS which used aged based patrols. Patrols could actually do things on their own without adults, including camping. Older members mentored and worked with younger members. Nowadays the lack of Scouter manpower, forces troops to focus on the Troop Method, and not the Patrol Method. IMHO, Scouting America has lost its way. Instead of focusing on adventure and fun to promote individual growth, the focus is now on MBs and getting Eagle. Instead of hiring and listening to folks with outdoor experience, Scouting America is hiring "Educational Leadership" experts with no idea how Scouting is suppose to work, but a ton of theories on how to develop youth. The one I met had no outdoors experience whatsoever, no jobs outside of academia, and was appalled when I said they needed to spend time at a summer camp. Even then summer camp is turning into outdoor school. And do not get me started on aged based patrols. I was one of the guinea pigs when it was beta tested, and shocked when it became the recommendation.

Seeing advancement become the sole purpose of scouting, then watching it get watered down to one and done and finally watching people in scouts wonder why parents don't put their kids in scouts anymore.

I don't get the indian lore stuff at all; with all of the headaches, people looking for a fight, politically correct paths to navigate; the whole indian lore thing is a liability with no redeeming quality.

No. The entire purpose of those requirements to to better prepare the Cub, and more importantly IMHO the parents, about the differences between Cubs and Scouts. I have seen first hand multiple times what happens when Cub "earn" AOL without actually doing those parts of the AOL requirements; They quit. Worst was the one den that didn't do any of the meetings or outdoor activity/camping, yet all members got AOL and "Crossed Over" to the troop. Troop gave them the custom neckers, slides, handbook, and never saw them again after the Cross Over ceremony.

That's a disturbing comment. While not pleasant to think about, it is certainly possible that some of the commentators on this forum over the years probably were involved in some of these cases. It's perhaps good to remember that a tactic of the guilty is to deflect blame elsewhere and weigh comments in that light.

I’m sorry, I need to vent for a minute. This has been rough learning an entire year of nothing happening with the Slater cases, of which I am one. I thought financial help with this case could help me through my elderly years, because it’s obvious to me I will never let this go. I have my good days and bad days, unfortunately, being part of this case removed most of those ‘good days’. It took me nearly a year to get everything together, fill out my questionnaire, and get it in. I would have to work weekends on it because of how badly it affected my work day and my daily life. After adding the case to my life a few days were hitting me particularly bad. I would sit in my back yard holding a hose, sitting in a chair watering the same spot of grass for hours at a time and crying. One day I was out there all day and the neighbors started getting worried. I thought this part of my sadness was done with. I learned that all of those times in life my throat closing up was anxiety. In the last few years, hard anxiety attacks were now taking me to the hospital a number of times to make sure I wasn’t about to check out. The night the abuse started I walked home with a tinnitus ringing loud in my left ear. This loud ringing stayed with me for two decades. By the end of my 20s, the ringing had subsided . But within months of deciding to enter this case the ear ringing came back strong. Hearing this ringing again really isn’t worth any of this. But I’m not financially stable, I need help. I attribute these poor financial abilities to the abuse directly. Prior to the abuse I was an excellent student, straight A’s, an eagerness to learn, happy, sports, friends, but after the abuse that was gone. The abuse destroyed who I was and what I was to become. At the beginning of last year, my questionnaire and everything was turned into Slater (a few months before the pause). After a few months of finishing the questionnaire I inquired about updates and was told there was none. Every few months I asked about updates and again there were none. Knowing there was a pause, they said nothing. I somewhat understand that part. But have they even found a mediator?? Have they even started vetting a single one of these 14000 cases????? I didn’t think about how long this case was going to be and now there’s going to be another stranger I have to spill my guts to. I don’t really have a question I think I just want to keep thanking all of you with everything I am. You’re the only ones that have truly helped my mind and my heart during this case. I honestly don’t think any of us can truly let anything go. I think people are just better at ignoring things? I’ve met a lot of abuse survivors and a lot of them could hide things so well. I can’t seem to do that. I’m so broken I don’t know what to do. I want a vacation from myself but that doesn’t exist. I tried medication and it made things worse. I tried talking to doctors, it made it worse. I had one doctor laugh at me and say you’re a big boy, you’ll be fine, slapped me on the back and prescribed me meds?? I mainly spent Saturday afternoons working on my case, so then I could be emotional appropriate for work on Monday morning. This is off topic but one of the days I was sitting there on the back porch working on my case, I was staring off into the backyard. I saw two hummingbirds flying straight at each other and the second they got super close to one another they did this tight spiral together straight up into the sky I thought I was seeing things and then it happened again that day. I don’t know if that’s some kind of mating ritual or what that is but I thought that was really neat. Goodnight everyone, bless you all.

Depends on the SM and availability of trained adult leaders. Our senior patrol still plans and execute 1 or 2 outdoor patrol activities a year. Back in my day, patrols hiked locally without adults provided their SM approved. I would say even then, councils did not recognize patrols. Council events and camps required troop registration even the patrol competition Klondike Derby required troop registration. IMHO, skilled, experienced patrols should be allowed to trek Philmont without adults. As an alternative to an Eagle service project, I favor allowing Eagle Scout candidates to plan and lead a patrol trek without adults in attendance or a "project handbook". We once trained scouts to reach a level (First Class) of outdoor competency such that they could "scout run" themselves without adults present. My $0.02,

I agree with Ms. Ireland’s statement that BSA is a “leadership development organization”, though IMHO it is much more. My sales pitch to parents has been Scouting is a laboratory for leadership experiments. Scouts have successes and failures. Lessons are learned, leader skills developed. However, becoming a leader is a Scout’s decision both for the Scouts who want to lead and the Scouts selecting their leader. No doubt, EagleDad’s pitch has been more successful than mine. Sure I get parental nods which are soon followed my kids needs a leadership for this rank or when is it my kid’s TURN to be SPL my kid’s PL should not be a PL… Leaderrship is not a singular approach nor skill like tying a square knot, it is dynamic. Leadership adjusts depending on the activity (the plan), group, and situation (in the field where the plan always needs tweaking or replacement with Plan B). Is leadership top down or bottom up or both? Should we select leaders by their proven ability or personal attributes? Back in the day, I was training with 7 other scouts for Philmont. Our adult advisor, an Eagle Scout and Philmont trekker, said he would observe and after 4 weekend outings select the PL and ASPL for Philmont. We were 15-16 year olds who had been PL’s or higher in our respective troops. Leadership positions were rotated during these training weekends which we planned ourselves. Some scouts were content to go through the leadership motions but a few wanted to be leaders, i.e,. they had a plan for Philmont and hence understood the need for training. After each weekend, our advisor separately debriefed each PL/ASPL. My turn included gear checks, strenuous terrain, map exercises, and simulated first aid emergencies. I was not popular. In my debriefing, my advisor said Congratulations you are MY choice for Philmont PL. I declined as I felt I did not have the support of my patrol. So if I put it to a patrol vote and you win, will you accept? Unlikely but yes. All 8 patrol members were on the ballot. Two members were cousins, three were from the same troop, and the other two were from another troop. Might as well vote for myself as no one else will. I won 8-0. A leadership laboratory! A month later Philmont would be another kind of leadership laboratory. From that Philmont lab, I would say bottom up leadership is more sustainable than top down. Leadership Method and Patrol Method. My $0.02,

If his Board of Review has been completed and approved by National, he IS an Eagle Scout. Whether he can remain a member of your Troop is another question. Sorry this has happened.

Sounds like where we want to be as a program here in the states.

About three weeks before camps open. Perfect timing.

That kind of ended with a whimper. I wish those that are involved all the best of luck.

Can never remind too often. Aaron on Scouting on YP https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2025/04/14/when-it-comes-to-child-protection-we-are-all-mandatory-reporters/

My wife and I were talking. Cancel culture is alive and well. Previous years it canceled conservatives. Now, the opposition is in power and progressives are being canceled. Soon everyone will be canceled. Failure To Stay Neutral ... IMHO, much of this is BSA's fault. BSA has repeatedly burnt goodwill by picking sides social debates. Orientation. Membership. DEI. Worse, BSA has been on both sides. In late 1990s and early 2000s, BSA alienated progressives with Dale v BSA. Then in 2010s to now, it has been with membership and DEI changes. BSA should have been staying neutral. "We leave that to our charter partners ... as an organization, BSA teaches universal values such as Trustworthy, Loyal, ... and encourages outdoor adventures.". Perhaps I'm naive. It feels like there is a dance to be done where BSA could have endorsed universal values without taking stances on the storm of social change.

The argument around this sort of thing is odd. The standard is the standard. 21 MB, so many camping nights, pass the swim test, etc ... right? This is sort of a like the old school adage that A's may pay, but C's get degrees. For the scout that goes above and beyond, fantastic, but it does not redefine the standard. The kid that does just the standard is just as much an eagle scout as any other eagle scout.

@skeptic, with all due respect, Truth and Knowledge are not personal opinions. "Referring youth back to family" makes a lot of sense when it comes to religion, but not this fiasco. If the scout's parents are getting their news from X/TikTok/QAnon or any of a number of other worthless information sources then all you're doing is keeping the scouts confused. What makes for an informed opinion? A bit of skepticism is certainly good. So is humility. I'd say play the devil's advocate on any issue they're interested in and show them how to come to their own answers. The bigger problem I see is that fear is freezing people from doing the right thing. They're afraid they're the only one that isn't so sure, so to be safe they're just going to go along. That's the problem. Democracy doesn't work when a lot of people are afraid to speak their mind. Your job is to teach them about truth and knowledge as well as bravery, humility, and kindness. Unfortunately this isn't just scouts. The best example is that Congress is frozen. Half of them think they can't do anything because they don't have the votes and the other half think they can't do anything because they're afraid they'll be voted out. I suspect the truth is that there are a fair number of people that voted for this administration but didn't vote for what's going on. Those people are the ones that hold all the power, if only they'd find the confidence to talk about their concerns. If only Congress would talk to them then, who knows, Congress might become a third co-equal branch of the government. Novel idea, no? For all the others, a bunch are getting what they voted for and I have no sympathy for what's happening to them. For those that didn't vote for this administration it's time to play the cards that were dealt. You say you don't remember a time when things were this "muddled and frozen by blind opinion?" Sure you do. You grew up in one such period. Civil rights. Vietnam. A lot of people were really sure about things until they started asking questions. Even then, the complexity of what was going on was much more than people realized. How many decades did it take to quit blaming vets? Anyone that thinks history is simple is not paying attention. I think we shouldn't whitewash our history. Just like scouts growing from making mistakes and learning from them so does society.

That’s the propaganda being spouted by Doug Kennedy and the cabal of lawyers who stand to make hundreds of millions if it is upheld while their clients get bupkis. Kennedy has already cashed in by settling his Catholic Church part of the case for millions. The delay in finalizing the plan was delaying his real payday. Kosnoff’s vision is based on a couple of things One is the liquidation of BSA’s assets in a Ch 7 or liquidating Ch 11 after the plan is overturned. The ample insurance policies survive BSA’s demise and are the most valuable assets of BSA and the locals and sponsors. Expect those entities to start negotiating either before or after their own Ch 11’s. Century/Chubb will come in and attempt to settle out individual or clusters of claims on a state by state basis. Before the total capitulation by the TCC and Pachulski Stang at the confirmation trial in 2022, it had compiled insurance policy discovery and expert testimony (it never presented at trial bc it sold out the claimants) that showed insurance proceeds at between 90 and 120 billion dollars. That coverage springs back to life when this plan is allowed to collapse. This 90-to 120 billion does not include the thousands of other liability insurance policies owned by the multitude of charter organizations most of whom received releases and contributed not a dime to the settlement. These untapped unknown policies were never pursued by the TCC and PS. Total professional malpractice if not outright fraud. As for these massive statute of limitations percentage reductions, some as much as 90%, the survivors will be back in control and not subject to the arbitrary whims of Houser. This is where getting help from state legislatures will come in to play. Several states have passed special window statutes tailored only to scout survivor residents of their own states …OH, AR, IN to name a few. Others will do the same because it’s an easy sell to reluctant legislators—a narrow window bill (first done in Michigan in the Larry Nasser US Gymnastics case several years ago) won’t impact any other entities e.g. schools, churches, local governments, other private organizations etc, but only scout insurers. It represents millions of dollars of revenue to a small subset of their residents who pay taxes, make purchases, and thereby help local businesses. It’s not a difficult sell. Local scout councils free from the yoke of a defunct BSA can reorganize and BSA National with all of its wasteful expensive, nepotistic bureaucracy will be vanquished to the trash heap. Scouting will have a new birth of freedom, free to go back to its roots with freedom to innovate and adapt to local conditions and sensibilities. What works in CA may not in AL or FL. etc. I expect scouting will evolve into a federation of independent scout organizations - which will be healthier for the movement than what exists now or in the past. Finally, I personally hope to see the 1/2 billion dollars in legal fees approved by Judge Silverstein and wasted on these bankruptcy law firms clawed back into a pot for the claimants via a class action malpractice lawsuit on behalf of all the claimants This is how the case should have been approached at the outset. BSA could not survive if survivors did not get screwed . There could only be one winner in this showdown. Conversely, survivors would never get meaningful justice and accountability, if BSA was allowed to survive. Only Kosnoff understood this fundamental truth.

What if we leave the Youth program to the Youth?