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OK... a pet peeve... yelling "Signs Up!"

One of the surest signs of membership decline is the lack of Scouters coming to this forum to debate adult square knot insignia. I swear that used to be every other thread around here pre-COVID. 😛

Yesterday my attorneys contacted me and informed me that my claim amount had been determined. After years of anxiety about what the outcome (I truly believed I deserved the maximum amount) my claim came in at 2.67 million. Yes, I know I will most like only get a fraction of that amount but the fact that my pain and suffering was valued at that amount is the most important aspect. In all honesty I cried, just like after 50 years of telling not one soul I finally opened up about what had happened to me. With the appeals and the court cases that may come up I know that this is not over yet, but I finally feel like I have crossed third base, and I am on my way to home plate. Over the past 22 hours I have thought quite a bit about how I have survived these past 6 years and the people that have given me moral support. I have reached out to those folks and thanked them. I now want to reach out to my survivor community on this forum and say thank you, without all of you I do not know how I would have made it. Thank you to Scouter Forum for giving me a place to vent my frustrations, state my opinions and allow me to interact with other survivors and not kicking me off the site. Thank you, moderators, for your patience. I am sure some of my posts made some of you cringe. I want to thank @ThenNow for always having my backside no matter how outrageous some of my posts were. Our DM's to each other always made me feel like I had a brother standing next to me. I want to thank the TCC (I am sure there are members here on Scouter Forum). I know that all of you took on an almost impossible thankless task that was never going to please everyone. One last thing (at least for now) @skeptic please no sad or confused faces. Maybe this will be the one post that you can give a green up arrow to that I have written. Thank you all, John

Unpopular opinion I'm sure, but: Eagle Scouts who can't congratulate a new Eagle without making it about themselves and mentioning that they are an Eagle (usually along with the year they earned it as well). Why not just a "Congrats, huge achievement, best of luck in your future endeavors."

Professional scouters that have clearly set goals that focus on raising money (for what nobody knows) rather than focusing on actually growing the program A National Organization that continues to believe the infrastructure needs to be reflective of the 70's (almost 5 million) rather than today (less than 1 million). Get rid of councils and overhead.

Had a good conversation with our COR last nite. Helps he is also a former SM and knows all the challenges I face in that role. We are on the verge of folding. He know it, our adults know it, and the Scouts may know it. We need one more Scout in order to recharter, and we are going full throttle on recruiting. Our DE says they can help us get into the schools. I hope that is true and he follows through, but the council's record on that is poor. But as Gandalf the White said, " There is always hope, a fool's hope." We will be doing our annual fundraiser as if we will be rechartering. Goal is to raise enough money to pay national and council fees, and summer camp. We will continue Scouting on. Back up plan is if the troop does not recharter, pay for everyone's, both adults and youth, registration and council fees, pay for summer camp, and save the rest to restart the troop at a later date. I am sticking around as SM until December 2026. I have idea on someone to replace me, but want to get them up to speed.

Tomorrow I head off on my first Scout week trip since the summer I turned 19. Back then, the troop consisted of my Scoutmaster who had been in the troop since 1933, the ASM who had been in since around 1960, my friend and fellow 18 y/o ASM, me, and three kids we recruited out of the 5th grade class of our old school at the beginning of the school year. We had a great time at our old camp - water skiing, motorboating, pioneering, a float trip, an overnight canoe trip, and various evening activities. I haven't been to a council camp/merit badge factory since the summer before I quit Scouting in 6th grade. We'll see how this goes. It's my son's first one. I intend to keep my distance from him as much as possible. He'll need to be his own person at the end of July when he attends another camp.

An April evening... Troop 544 was having their weekly meeting at their Scout Hut when law enforcement arrived to report a missing autistic child in the area. The scouts quickly organized into search patrols led by older members and an assistant scoutmaster. As temperatures dropped and daylight faded, the group found the child hiding in bushes and stayed with him to offer comfort until first responders arrived. Scout Salute, More at source including photos and map. https://www.nwfdailynews.com/story/news/local/2025/05/21/scout-troop-honored-by-okaloosa-commission-for-helping-to-find-child/83773869007/

We've had similar experiences with various sports coaches and then specifically baseball coaches when the more sports oriented son settled into that. Almost all of them were good and many, especially in baseball, were supportive of scouting. I think one big difference I've seen in youth athletics overall is that bad coaches, unlike bad adult scout volunteers, generally don't linger. The volunteer shortage in scouting means the organization seems to hang on to almost any warm body, no matter how problematic. The existence of umpires and league arbiters also mean that the kinds of rule and vague policy questions that plague scouting, and are the source of numerous social media sites and posts, are resolved more efficiently in sports. As for adult scouters, one possible reason is I think scouting experiences are much more fragmented and individual. One adult might have been in a unit that camped all the time; another adult might have been in a unit that was more advancement driven; another in a unit that was very integrated with a religion; yet another with one that was influenced by military connections and philosophies. When they re-experience it with their kids, it can seem completely different and offputting and definitely more complicated. Sports, on the other hand, can seem almost universally familiar. There have been rule and equipment changes but pretty much youth basketball, football, baseball, soccer players are playing the same game their parents did no matter what part of the country they were from. It's easier to re-onboard with and more understandable. They don't need as much training to be functional.

Your idea isn't new; the BSA has made these kinds of promises since the creation of the program. I do agree that at this age, cost isn't as much of an issue as the cub program, but a results-based program is very subjective. And most of the time the adults go the easy route of Eagle for their results-based program. However, youth at this age aren't advancement-driven. I found that most Eagle-driven programs lose 70% of their scouts by age 15 because advancement gets boring. Adventure-driven programs thrive because they are fun in the outdoors, and because independence in the patrol method drives more maturity in their growth. Go look at units where scouts age out, and you will find they are more scout-run with adventure. Also, adventure-driven programs typically have a high number of Eagles because the scouts are in the program a long time and earn the Eagle requirements by simply participating. Barry

It is dying. And the majority of folks do not want to put quality control measures. They want 'High Speed, Low Drag" advancement and increasing the number of Eagle Scouts. They would rather celebrate the 13 or 14 year old with all 130+MBs than the troop that is doing trail work on the AT, or the troop running Red Cross evac stations.

Having worked in various joint commands in plans (J5), exercise (J7), and operations shops (J3), I have to tell you these things are FAR from free. Military exercises, deployments, employments, redeployment, and reconstitution (after the fact) are quite expensive, in fact. Literally hundreds of millions of your tax dollars are spent on these each year to maintain unit readiness. Difficult to stage? yes... Scarcity of opportunity? no. Quite the opposite. Military commands at all levels routinely have to cut exercises and practices from their schedules to support various "hobby horses" or "pet projects" the military is tasked to support based on political pressure. The National Jamboree is a good example of such a "pet project." Do the units supporting these get good training? Absolutely. Could the resources spent on the Jamboree be better used supporting other valid military training objectives? Absolutely. Do I support the use of military resources to enable the Jamboree? Absolutely 😜 (Sometimes the troops would rather support something at home like this, rather than flying to a third world country to practice their "wartime" skills there.)

In my opinion this is a sign of burnout in the leadership. In my opinion you want to meet every week unless a holiday falls exactly on the meeting day. What I have seen personally is that units who are looking for these excuses are suffering burnout in the leadership. The two week gap screams to me that the leadership is burned out and that their scouts are probably in a situation where they don't need the meetings to advance so it's just a burden meeting to those families.

I cringed when I read the term "Family Troop". My initial reaction was, "there's the final nail in the coffin of the Patrol Method".

Adults wearing Eagle rank patches. Not the square knot, the oval. And I'd personally let it slide for an 18 or 19-year-old, but I'm seeing too many 50-something men wearing an oval Eagle rank patch.

Seeing advancement become the sole purpose of scouting, then watching it get watered down to one and done and finally watching people in scouts wonder why parents don't put their kids in scouts anymore.

There's two things here, maybe related, maybe not. As an outsider with few years dealing with BSA (not involved with the settlement at all) I see things more from a corporate and legal lens. I agree with the assessment that doing the settlement fund piecemeal (going after councils, CO's, etc ... ) would have created a vast array of have and have nots. So many guilty parties (councils, units, charter orgs, perps) no longer exist, which would have prevented victims from seeking any restitution. I still struggle with these funded vs hypothesized fund numbers. What I know of nationals resources and debt and the councils local to me is that there really isn't much money out there, especially at the councils whom are mostly operating hand-to-mouth. To the discussion of Scouting America being around in the future; I have no doubt that Scouting America will be here in 100 years. I do think Scouting America will look a lot different, a lot more like how I understand scouting was 100 years ago. I think national is going to have to divest itself of a lot of physical property in order to get out of debt; maybe only Philmont surviving. I think the number of councils is going to shrink down to less than 100 (I think this will happen in the next 10 years). I think the number of council owned properties (camps) is probably going to shrink down to around 50 and start to get run more by professional adult camp staff and less by summer volunteers on a 4 season operational plan (the days of 7-9 weeks of summer camp run by barely paid OA seeking volunteers is coming to an end).

In 1989 when aged based patrols became the recommendation instead of Traditional, mixed aged patrols, that was the beginning of fall of the Patrol Method. In 2012, when they no longer allowed patrols to camp on their own without adult supervision, that furthered the fall. In 2018 when they no longer allowed patrols to have any day activities, i.e. patrol meetings, hikes, camp shopping etc, unless 2 registered adults over the age of 21, that nailed the coffin shut IMHO.

Going from memory here, so bear with me. One of the reasons for better quality control is that there are a lot fewer professionals, so there is no pressure to increase membership numbers. As a result volunteers are empowered more to do things. If a group of volunteers want to clean up camp to prepare for an event, they contact the camp warden (ranger) and Bob's your uncle, you can do it. I know of councils where you have to go through the council office and SE in order to have a work day, and they may even deny it! Another thing is that their standards when I was there had not changed. "One and Done" was not a thing. Emphasis on advancement, and Queen's Scout was not existent, compared to the pressure in the US. I have had folks tell me HA is a was a of time because there is little to no advancement involved. Instead their focus was on skills and adventure. Finally, they held their Scouts to higher expectations/standards. It was not uncommon for their Scouts and Ventures to go on a week long expedition without any adult supervision as part of the DoE Award program. Even today they do "Remote Supervision" as defined as: "Remote [Supervision] ‑ Where the Supervisor remains out of sight and hearing of the team and allows them to get on with the expedition without any intervention ‑ The Supervisor will have a good idea of roughly where the team are and how they are progressing ‑ This is the norm for the majority of practice expeditions and all qualifying expeditions. It allows the Supervisor to: ◦ Periodically observe the team without intervening ◦ Allow the team to make mistakes and to recover from them without outside intervention ◦ Support the team by remaining remote yet in the expedition area and able to intervene if absolutely necessary or if requested."

Here's a slight modification to @Eagle1993's comment about ditching the lions and tigers. Cubscouts was originally meant to be pre scouts, not it's own thing. The question is what would a cub program look like if the goal were to get every scout to bridge over? Just my guess but a 3 year program that was fair weather camping would be a start. Very little else. If the goal is to camp or play outdoors from May to September then it's pretty easy. Tie it to the troop so those kids see the scouts doing their thing. The UK has "groups" where each group has all age ranges covered. So make a group where, up front, the expectation is to prepare cubs and parents to be camping with the troop. Parents need to learn how to camp, how to have fun singing silly songs at camp fires, how to cook in the outdoors. Yes, the scouts need to learn this as well but that's obvious. Those 3 years are to teach the parents what scouting is about while they have fun with their kids. The pinewood derby is not important. The pins are not important. The badges and patches are not important. Learning how to have fun with your kids in the outdoors is important. That would be much easier on the parents than putting on a weekly program for kids that aren't mature, can't sit still and really need to burn a lot of energy. Final comment is that cubscouts is where cubs camp with their parents. Scouts is where they don't. Sure, slight modification would be a major change. I'm not sure what would happen with single parents and siblings and all that. Those are the details where the devil lies. My kids have their own now, so I'm probably the wrong person to ask anyway.

Thank you for the well wishes. Truly. Though I'm still barefooted on the floor attempting to navigate the final stanzas of this treacherous waltz with Kaa (through shards of my life and the lives of others), I'll take any encouragement offered. So, 1908 days after the Chapter 11 filing and 1755 days after submitting my Proof of Claim, I received my Allowed Abuse Claim letter. Who's counting, right? Living through many forms of abuse starting at the age of 3, spent many years drowning in self-medicating techniques through diverse (and sometimes creative) maladaptive behaviors. Along the path I've had my share of so-called, 'out of body experiences.' I have officially added reading that letter to the list. Whatever that means to you and however you envision it, that was surreal. I meandered around for hours then days, experiencing more manic, sleepless nights thinking, writing and, again, trying to avoid feeling it all yet again. The non-monetary narrative section placed me, appropriately, in the Tier One, penetration, category. Is that a "YAY!" moment? I suppose one celebrates such a thing, as twisted and morbid as that it surely is. The letter, signed by Randi Roth, the Claims Administrator, said in pertinent part: "Allowable" Claim. The Trust assesses seven basic eligibility criteria to determine whether your claim is "allowable." They include: (1) your submission was timely; (2) there was no previous resolution of your claim in litigation or another process; (3) you stated the acts of abuse that were suffered; (4) you established your connection to Scouting and showed that BSA, a local council, or certain Chartered Organizations may have been legally responsible for your abuse; (5) you sufficiently identified your abuser(s) and your abuser's connection to Scouting; (6) you provided the approximate date of your abuse (or your age at the time of abuse): and (7) you provided the location of the abuse. Once the Trust determined that your claim was "allowable," the Trust turned to calculating the "Proposed Allowed Claim Amount.. There are many aggravating factors listed in the TDP. In your case, ten of them applied: extended duration of the abuse; extended frequency of the abuse; you were exploited for child pornography; multiple abusers involved in sexual misconduct; adverse impacts to your mental health; adverse impacts to your physical health; adverse impacts to your interpersonal relationships; adverse impacts to your vocational capacity; adverse impacts to your academic capacity; and impacts resulting in your legal difficulties." Wee. I have been validated. More balloons, streamers, cupcakes, pink punch and party favors? The single Mitigating Factor applied was the dreaded Statute of Limitations, though they used the most favorable option since I was abused in three states. Still, per a very helpful and knowledgeable Claim Administrations Advisor, it's doubtful an attorney actual read and researched the substance of my argument for tolling of the appropriately abbreviated, SoL based on fraudulent concealment. That means I stay in the game and prepare my Request for Reconsideration of the tolling argument. For me, it's worth another at bat on this key factor in the final award determination. Thus concludes this grunt's update from the war zone. I have not yet found a DMZ. Please hold hope and carry on all of you survivor claimants, my friends and fellows, still out here with me. Per usual, forgive my speed typos.

I don't understand. It appears your troop is a lifeboat for this scout and scouts like him. Our troop averaged one scout transfer per month because of our program reputation. Many were friends of scouts in our troop. Council often referred out-of-state transfers to us . These scouts lack of skills can be challenging, but I always found them and their parents enthusiastic and great supporters for our program. I'm so thankful for your service. Barry

An Eagle in my neck of the woods, when asked what he learned from doing his project, responded, "Paperwork will suck the joy out of anything you love." As for PowerPoint Presentations, not for the project approval or for the EBOR, but other things related to the project could require them. One Eagle I had went to a foundation for a grant to do his project. They wanted him to do a PPT to the board in order to get approval for it. He submitted the PPT to the foundation director, and presented his case for his project. He got the funding. THAT IS AN UNDERSTATEMENT!!!!!!! (emphasis, not shouting at you) My tech savy son, who is now a computer science major, told me the program completely whacked when it come to photos. Whenever we talk to Life Scouts about project workbooks, we tell them do not worry about the photos in the workbook, add them to the end of it as individual photos.

Always refer to the G2A ... Guide To Advancement. In my view ... The Eagle Project is about service and leadership in doing that service. The workbook is well laid out and explicitly describes the steps. The project is enough in and of itself. Adding troop unique expectations makes the Eagle Project more about jumping hoops and than giving service. IMHO, we teach bad lessons when we make advancement about jumping hoops. Not required and can't be required ... but troops still do it. Is it harmful? Mostly no. Is this a hill to die on either direction? No. Is it a good idea? No, but I flip flop and can see both sides. Does it help the scout? Maybe a few scouts, but mostly no. The scout MUST fill out the Eagle Project Workbook in detail. That is the scout's commitment. A PowerPoint is extra and just decorative. Committees ... chair or designee(s) ... must review the workbook. That is what is being signed and is effectively a contract. A PowerPoint presentation is NOT what is being signed off. I've had scouts show me their PowerPoint presentation required by their troop. I sat nicely and listened. ... THEN, we went section by section thru the workbook write-up because that is the commitment. Bad ... Could be the unrequired extra hoop to jump thru that causes a scout to give up on Eagle. Good ... Might give some scouts presentation practice that helps scouts later in the process ... IMHO this is a big stretch. Why do troops do it? Biggest reason I've seen is the worst because it does not match Guide To Advancement. Troops justify it as it gives scouts experience presenting to groups and talking in front of groups. IMHO, that's what the Communications MB is about. That's what the rest of the scouting program is about. Eagle project is about service and leading that service. IMHO, it smells more of committee self-importance. If a troop wants to do it, it's not a hill to die on. Smile nicely. Listen. Don't promote the practice and point out the scout requirements are in the Eagle project workbook and the Guide To Advancement. ... Sorry if I am long winded. This was a hot button topic for me as I've been involved in many Eagle project proposal reviews.

So if a scout can take off and work on MBs at a camporee, what does the rest of his or her patrol do without that scout? So much for patrol method. There's sort of a win all you can mindset but my guess is that not understanding the benefits of the patrol method is a bigger problem. I heard an interview with someone that studies youth problems with changing technology. It was like they were begging for something just like the patrol method. The idea of a gang of kids, where the older ones look out for the younger ones and teach them the rules of society started fading with the advent of computers as entertainment. Lack of social skills, depression, etc. Smart phones made it that much worse. Their biggest fear is when parents can buy AI "friends" for their children. They'll never have to talk to real people! To be honest, I think there's another problem. I'm a grandparent with 3 grandkids aged 2 and under. Of all the people I knew that were parents while my kids were living at home, most don't have grandkids. Few of their children want children. Maybe they're too busy earning "MBs"? I admit that it's expensive and difficult to find the time, but, when it comes to a high adventure trip, having kids is really one of the best. Both my kids are in the not enough sleep phase but they love their kids. It's wonderful for me to watch. Both of my kids live in town. It's been an insane winter of colds and my wife and I are always on call. I've been sick more this winter than I can remember. I also love that I can spend this time with my family. I wouldn't call it quality time but some day, after I'm gone, I hope my grandkids have fond memories of playing with me. Bottom line: MBs are easy, life is not. Life is an adventure, MBs are not. MBs are worn on your sleeve, good memories are worn on your soul.

I taught at 1 MBU, and was never asked back. I told the folks running it, it would be a partial UNLESS the Scout did work before hand to do the stuff I was unable to do at the event. out of about 50- 60 people in 2 sessions, 1 person did the work before coming to the MBU. Another Scout contacted me after the event with the work. No one else contacted me about the badge. And the folks running it never asked me again. Same event, but a friend's encounter. Crime Prevention MB had a disruptive Scout. Was sent out after a few problems. At the end of the day, complains he never got Crime Prevention MB that he "Paid for." Thankfully my district knows not to convert a camporee into a MBU. They did that 1 year. Attendance was poor, and only 2 units liked it.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. —Martin Niemöller

I too used to, stress USED TO, do that. But was informed that unless the requirement specifically states you cannot use an activity for more than one requirement, you gotta accept it. I am waiting for the duel enrolled Girl Scout/Scouting America Scout to do one project for both their Gold Award and Eagle.

I had a pretty traditional Scouting experience that culminated in earning the Eagle Scout award after I had a lot of fun and finally got around to the paperwork. One of my best my friends could be described as a "Paper Eagle." He made it through the program with very little camping and had everything wrapped up by high school so he could focus more on academics. Today, he's a professor at a prestigious university and travels the world to present his research. He is absolutely someone we'd want to represent the program. Scouting just means different things to different people and we all have to be OK with that for the BSA to survive.

Wow, go out of town for a couple days and wow a lot was here to chew on. The all merit badge issue is in my opinion a matter of money. The scouts that I have personally seen get them all basically bought their way through it by having the cash to go-go-go. I don't believe a scout should have to master a skill to get a merit badge; however, at the same time I don't believe some of these scouts have retained any knowledge of the harder merit badges which defeats a huge part of the purpose of the merit badge process. The merit badge mills (MBU, etc ... )are less of a concern for me. They're such a mixed bag. Some scouts are coming in with pre-requisites and meeting the base standard, some are exceeding the standard, some are just being tossed a merit badge (which plainly sucks and hurts the scouts and program). I think the difficulty here is that there is a base standard, a minimum; we often get lost in the haze of debate over a scout who over achieves and people believing that should re-baseline the merit badge requirements. Merit badges are not on a bell curve, you do the standard you get the badge. I sat in at a MBU last year and I had a handful of parents and scouts lose their mind on me because they came in with literal reams of pre-work and while great, demonstrating above average achievement, it was a lot of work that was not required. I had to tell a scout and his parents that the standard was X and they did X+10. I had to tell them that the other scouts who just did exactly the requirement for the pre-requisites would get the exact same merit badge. They lost their minds, to them because little billy did more, so should everyone else. The requirements to become a MBC are horrible in every way. The standards are arbitrary and subjective. There are very few if any audits of skill going on. There are fiefdoms for certain merit badges. My personal hate is being told I was not qualified to be an MBC for a merit badge and I came back with "I have over 40 years experience and certified training in this, wtf do you mean I am not qualified to be an MBC for this?". When national rolled out the Citizenship in Society MB and all the hoops you had to jump through to be an MBC for that, where the heck are those hoops for any other MB? How can people get signed off to be an MBC without doing the 15min free online training? Too wrap this up I just had to talk a troop leader off the ledge who was going to lose his $%^& on our councils "MB Dean" when the MB Dean told the troop leader that he wasn't qualified to MBC Citizenship in the Nation; the troop leader is teacher who literally teaches a course called "Citizenship in America" at a local high school. The whole process is broken.

UPDATE: A helpful Scout shop volunteer on the other side of the country saw a post I'd made on a Facebook Scouting group and let me know that they'd found a medal while doing shop inventory. I got it in the mail yesterday! All hail the Laurel Highlands Council volunteers for their help. If anyone else is looking for a medal, I heard from one or two other council shops that might still have one in stock. Let me know if you need info. Thanks, everyone, for your help and ideas!

Putting on my Membership Chairman hat. Almost 95% of scouts in troops come from the Cubs. If the youth aren't recruited in Cubs, the troops will have to recruit from other sources. When National added additional requirements to the Tiger program in 2000 (increasing meetings to every week, an adult required for each scout), many units were unable to meet the new demands, and the Tiger numbers dropped significantly. That drop became obvious in 2005 when the troop membership suddenly dropped. If you don't get the Cubs, you don't get the crossovers. Barry

One reason why Scouting America doesn't cut off Scouting at 13 or 14, and makes Venturing the next stage, (emphasis) if you look at older, pre 1989 BSA literature. The middle schoolers look up to, and learn from the highschoolers. They will usually be the ones elected into leadership roles. Traditional, aka Mixed Age Patrols, were the standard. Unless you were LDS which used aged based patrols. Patrols could actually do things on their own without adults, including camping. Older members mentored and worked with younger members. Nowadays the lack of Scouter manpower, forces troops to focus on the Troop Method, and not the Patrol Method. IMHO, Scouting America has lost its way. Instead of focusing on adventure and fun to promote individual growth, the focus is now on MBs and getting Eagle. Instead of hiring and listening to folks with outdoor experience, Scouting America is hiring "Educational Leadership" experts with no idea how Scouting is suppose to work, but a ton of theories on how to develop youth. The one I met had no outdoors experience whatsoever, no jobs outside of academia, and was appalled when I said they needed to spend time at a summer camp. Even then summer camp is turning into outdoor school. And do not get me started on aged based patrols. I was one of the guinea pigs when it was beta tested, and shocked when it became the recommendation.

My scouts are so slow about updating their rank patches that maybe they would be better served by just handing down their shirts to the kid who just made their last rank!

No. The entire purpose of those requirements to to better prepare the Cub, and more importantly IMHO the parents, about the differences between Cubs and Scouts. I have seen first hand multiple times what happens when Cub "earn" AOL without actually doing those parts of the AOL requirements; They quit. Worst was the one den that didn't do any of the meetings or outdoor activity/camping, yet all members got AOL and "Crossed Over" to the troop. Troop gave them the custom neckers, slides, handbook, and never saw them again after the Cross Over ceremony.

That's a disturbing comment. While not pleasant to think about, it is certainly possible that some of the commentators on this forum over the years probably were involved in some of these cases. It's perhaps good to remember that a tactic of the guilty is to deflect blame elsewhere and weigh comments in that light.

I’m sorry, I need to vent for a minute. This has been rough learning an entire year of nothing happening with the Slater cases, of which I am one. I thought financial help with this case could help me through my elderly years, because it’s obvious to me I will never let this go. I have my good days and bad days, unfortunately, being part of this case removed most of those ‘good days’. It took me nearly a year to get everything together, fill out my questionnaire, and get it in. I would have to work weekends on it because of how badly it affected my work day and my daily life. After adding the case to my life a few days were hitting me particularly bad. I would sit in my back yard holding a hose, sitting in a chair watering the same spot of grass for hours at a time and crying. One day I was out there all day and the neighbors started getting worried. I thought this part of my sadness was done with. I learned that all of those times in life my throat closing up was anxiety. In the last few years, hard anxiety attacks were now taking me to the hospital a number of times to make sure I wasn’t about to check out. The night the abuse started I walked home with a tinnitus ringing loud in my left ear. This loud ringing stayed with me for two decades. By the end of my 20s, the ringing had subsided . But within months of deciding to enter this case the ear ringing came back strong. Hearing this ringing again really isn’t worth any of this. But I’m not financially stable, I need help. I attribute these poor financial abilities to the abuse directly. Prior to the abuse I was an excellent student, straight A’s, an eagerness to learn, happy, sports, friends, but after the abuse that was gone. The abuse destroyed who I was and what I was to become. At the beginning of last year, my questionnaire and everything was turned into Slater (a few months before the pause). After a few months of finishing the questionnaire I inquired about updates and was told there was none. Every few months I asked about updates and again there were none. Knowing there was a pause, they said nothing. I somewhat understand that part. But have they even found a mediator?? Have they even started vetting a single one of these 14000 cases????? I didn’t think about how long this case was going to be and now there’s going to be another stranger I have to spill my guts to. I don’t really have a question I think I just want to keep thanking all of you with everything I am. You’re the only ones that have truly helped my mind and my heart during this case. I honestly don’t think any of us can truly let anything go. I think people are just better at ignoring things? I’ve met a lot of abuse survivors and a lot of them could hide things so well. I can’t seem to do that. I’m so broken I don’t know what to do. I want a vacation from myself but that doesn’t exist. I tried medication and it made things worse. I tried talking to doctors, it made it worse. I had one doctor laugh at me and say you’re a big boy, you’ll be fine, slapped me on the back and prescribed me meds?? I mainly spent Saturday afternoons working on my case, so then I could be emotional appropriate for work on Monday morning. This is off topic but one of the days I was sitting there on the back porch working on my case, I was staring off into the backyard. I saw two hummingbirds flying straight at each other and the second they got super close to one another they did this tight spiral together straight up into the sky I thought I was seeing things and then it happened again that day. I don’t know if that’s some kind of mating ritual or what that is but I thought that was really neat. Goodnight everyone, bless you all.

Parents are the most challenging part of Scoutmastering. National should create a course to prepare for how to respond to them. It takes practice. We had a few families leave because we didn't budge on our program philosophy. One mother took her new tenderfoot son out because I wouldn't delegate him as the Patrol Leader. But we lost several scouts because of our approach to Eagle. And, the parents of the ones who stayed despite their parents' wishes would never speak to me again, even when I ran into them at the grocery store. Barry

A Scout is Trustworthy. And scouting is not easy. Teach them how to responsibly use tools. And yes they will fail but try again and again... learn by doing. Share the troop policy with parents. For example, how to fully charge phones before activity and how to find a missing scout or a phone via a phone. Back in the day, we scouts had nighttime competitions as to who could tune in the furthest AM station. We would be up all Friday night, however we soon learned the downside - dragging or missing fun Saturday activities. Wiser by Sat night, we slept and were ready for Sunday activities. Scouting is a learning experience. It is far easier to simply... but it is far better to use the Scout methods. Another $0.02.

I no longer am sure where the tale I am sharing next is located in my "stuff". Never been well organized, and I have read so much over five+ decades that it gets mixed a bit., Anyway, I recollect reading about an early Chicago unit in the teens that would gather downtown near the train station, hop on a train to the outskirts of the city, and hop off with their gear. Then they just took off down a country road looking for a spot to set up. They tried to take note of farm houses nearby for possible meal resources. While they had very basic stuff, so would not starve, and they were not remote per se, back then it was still fairly remote compared to today. Anyway, the story told of them sending the most likely young scout, usually very young and skinny, and send him to the doors of farm house asking for some food for the group. It worked well enough that they seldom really had to eat the less than tasty stuff they did have, and sometimes they even ended up invited in like part of a family. Seems to me that they did offer to do some work for the help, but often were just fed. Try that today.

I agree with Ms. Ireland’s statement that BSA is a “leadership development organization”, though IMHO it is much more. My sales pitch to parents has been Scouting is a laboratory for leadership experiments. Scouts have successes and failures. Lessons are learned, leader skills developed. However, becoming a leader is a Scout’s decision both for the Scouts who want to lead and the Scouts selecting their leader. No doubt, EagleDad’s pitch has been more successful than mine. Sure I get parental nods which are soon followed my kids needs a leadership for this rank or when is it my kid’s TURN to be SPL my kid’s PL should not be a PL… Leaderrship is not a singular approach nor skill like tying a square knot, it is dynamic. Leadership adjusts depending on the activity (the plan), group, and situation (in the field where the plan always needs tweaking or replacement with Plan B). Is leadership top down or bottom up or both? Should we select leaders by their proven ability or personal attributes? Back in the day, I was training with 7 other scouts for Philmont. Our adult advisor, an Eagle Scout and Philmont trekker, said he would observe and after 4 weekend outings select the PL and ASPL for Philmont. We were 15-16 year olds who had been PL’s or higher in our respective troops. Leadership positions were rotated during these training weekends which we planned ourselves. Some scouts were content to go through the leadership motions but a few wanted to be leaders, i.e,. they had a plan for Philmont and hence understood the need for training. After each weekend, our advisor separately debriefed each PL/ASPL. My turn included gear checks, strenuous terrain, map exercises, and simulated first aid emergencies. I was not popular. In my debriefing, my advisor said Congratulations you are MY choice for Philmont PL. I declined as I felt I did not have the support of my patrol. So if I put it to a patrol vote and you win, will you accept? Unlikely but yes. All 8 patrol members were on the ballot. Two members were cousins, three were from the same troop, and the other two were from another troop. Might as well vote for myself as no one else will. I won 8-0. A leadership laboratory! A month later Philmont would be another kind of leadership laboratory. From that Philmont lab, I would say bottom up leadership is more sustainable than top down. Leadership Method and Patrol Method. My $0.02,

Sounds like where we want to be as a program here in the states.

About three weeks before camps open. Perfect timing.

IMO the workbook is awful in so many ways. Filling it out almost becomes the project itself. Adding another layer to it makes it even worse.

This seems to be part of the overall trend where Scouting is less experiential learning, less growing through group dynamics, less boy led and more, well almost school work focus. Along with MBU and not really becoming "Scouts", this is wanted by parents, who do not want to actually be involved, they just have expectations. They are expecting the new scouts to stay within their peer groups, stay in their comfort zones, get socially promoted through the ranks and be led by the leaders through monitored and "safe" activities. That whole outdoor and weekend camping interferes with sports, is scary and challenging, and boys may get dirty and be uncomfortable. Also how will the parents keep an eye on them, I mean they aren't heading out to the woods as an ASM or leader. In many cases the new crossover families want a warm and embracing Webelos III experience. The challenge is many boys, after 5th grade, find this somewhat boring. The retention rates is very low for many units due to these expectations and families assuming the Scouts program (11 - 17 years olds) will be like Cubs. One of the reasons there is not overall growth in the program. On a macro scale the promise of fun and adventure in many (though not all) cases is not being delivered. Units are getting way smaller. Average size for units at our camp 8 years ago was +/- 24 youth in camp. Last year the average was less than 17 youth. The Scouts that are in units that camp, that challenge them, that get them out of their normal comfort zone, and let the youth run the program keep those Scouts. Those units lose most to aging out, not just having kids not showing up any more. Sadly there are less and less units that are run in this manner.

Part of the outdoor programming has a higher cost, requires more skill from the adults, and requires more output from scouts and parents. Most troops act more like family groups going camping. Group cooking etc Somewhere, we have lost the, at least when I was a scout, it was the process that made you an Eagle Scout, not pinning on a badge. I remember meeting people who were active in their fields as merit badge counselors. Summer camp was for the rarer outdoor merit badges, i.e., swimming, lifesaving, riflery, and other shooting scouts. See the OA perform back when there was an awe factor. Se focus on the badge numbers not the process. john

What I am seeing is that there is no goldilocks zone for todays scouts. It's either the troop is a meatgrinder and only scouts with professional proficiency are getting things signed off or the opposite where anything can get signed off. I think the answer is unit leaders (all of us) and national need to push WAY WAY more outdoors programming. Some of the program needs to shift back towards scout skills emphasis; I would personally yank some of the non scout skill eagle MB and replace them with orienteering, wilderness survival, and backpacking.

My wife and I were talking. Cancel culture is alive and well. Previous years it canceled conservatives. Now, the opposition is in power and progressives are being canceled. Soon everyone will be canceled. Failure To Stay Neutral ... IMHO, much of this is BSA's fault. BSA has repeatedly burnt goodwill by picking sides social debates. Orientation. Membership. DEI. Worse, BSA has been on both sides. In late 1990s and early 2000s, BSA alienated progressives with Dale v BSA. Then in 2010s to now, it has been with membership and DEI changes. BSA should have been staying neutral. "We leave that to our charter partners ... as an organization, BSA teaches universal values such as Trustworthy, Loyal, ... and encourages outdoor adventures.". Perhaps I'm naive. It feels like there is a dance to be done where BSA could have endorsed universal values without taking stances on the storm of social change.

“Boy Scouts lets him be a kid.” At his pack's annual Blue and Gold Banquet, nine-year-old Cameron Echols received a wooden axe for his bravery in fighting his cancer. The axe had inscriptions ‘A Scout is Brave’ with Cameron’s name and the scripture Joshua 1:9 — “Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God is with you.” "Cameron was diagnosed with a brain tumor last year, a myeloblastoma, near his cerebellum in his brain that was blocking fluid from going to the rest of his body. A surgery was performed that removed most of the tumor, but to get the rest they used radiation that he went through up until last December. Cameron is still going through chemotherapy and will continue that up until this fall with the hope he is done sometime in September or October. In the meantime, scouting has given the young boy a true outlet to feel like a normal kid for a bit and get away from everything he is enduring." More at source (text with audio): https://www.clantonadvertiser.com/2025/03/26/echols-fighting-cancer-with-family-scouts-support-behind-him/

I LOVED Scouting as a youth and always figured I'd be a hands-on parent / leader - attending Roundtables, serving on committees, staffing district events, etc. I'm happy to be a Den Leader as long as my son and his friends are having fun. If he decides to continue with Scouts, I'll support the Troop, but don't have the enthusiasm I once had. I think the change comes down to three things: Scouting is in a death loop and I can feel it. Look no further than this message board. I used to lurk here 10 years ago and it felt like there was double the amount of activity (mods, can you confirm?). As a youth, I met a lot of neat people through Scouting. I always figured I'd see those people on the trail with their own kids, but many have either moved away from my mid-size city or don't have kids in the program. I'm terrified of liability and have no desire to attend overnight events with some of the poorly behaved kids in our Pack (even though most of the kids and families are great). My son loves basketball. Our town has recently won state championships in basketball, baseball, and hockey. These programs are pillars of our community. It's very different than when I was a kid and we played organized sports 1x per week at the YMCA. As for my local council, I know they have their challenges, but I've received sufficient support since re-joining as an adult. I even have a text chain with my DE. He's very responsive and makes me feel valued. I can only imagine how some of you feel when you're not getting ample support from your local professionals.