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This is Scouting. Taken two days ago at just above 3250 feet at Middle Lion Camp in the Los Padres NF above Ojai, Ca. The group stayed there after hiking in, and woke up to snow. And they loved it. The scout is part of an all girl unit, though they do on occasion work with other units.

Lot of good comments Summary is the BSA (SA??) has not fully defined what it is and what they do. When I joined way back when it was a game with a purpose, we had adventures, learned things, sampled many different hobbies and interests, and most importantly learned to work in groups and take care of ourselves. As we matured we went from follower to leader. Over the years the BSA strayed from that to want to become the swiss army knife of youth groups. We do everything. Also more focus on advancement and formal learning and less emphasis on experiential learning. 1/2 the required Eagle MBs are basically classwork. Even the action merit badges focus way more on instruction and less on doing. Many leaders (parents) do not see the big picture. Anecdotal but the pages of discussion on getting 20 nights camping for camping MB is case in point. Folks spend way more time figuring our how to game the system than, well, I don't know, going camping. BSA (SA??) needs to get a clear message out of what they are DOING, action stuff. Move away from family stuff for cubs, that is killing that group and makes Scouts harder to recruit due to that is the expectation. Middle schoolers DO NOT want a family organization, they want adventures with their peers. We are not STEM (many groups do that better), Kids do not want more schools, and are actually not a formal leadership academy. You know what youth soccer is successful, they focus on soccer. BSA needs to focus on a core group of things we can do well, and sell that. Quick note on social media, the BSA (SA??) National and Council feeds are horrendous. They are really more message boards and advertisements. Post stories of what Scouts are DOING!! Focus on adventure to entice and dare I say tempt youth to go join.

Pressures of modern life and the pandemic have made the UK Scout organization stronger than ever with a 100,000-strong waiting list. ... "Then there’s the thorny issue of neurodiversity: where mainstream schools are struggling to cope with rising numbers of children diagnosed with autism and ADHD. The Scouts, however – which pitches itself as the opposite of a classroom environment – is not suffering. “We don’t teach in classrooms,” Carter adds. “We teach by doing in real life. Put up a tent in the rain, and they will learn it’s quicker if you work as a team. We also give lots of training to our volunteers on neurodiversity. “We find children’s time is so programmed by school and parents but we just let them hang out with their mates and breathe. They love their midnight feasts and toasting marshmallows, but they also love just chatting when it’s dark. They open up in that space.” For Sharmine Chowdhury-Tse, a parent and lead volunteer of the 20th Willesden Scout Group, the combination of these factors is what makes it so appealing." 👍 More at source, good read: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/parenting/scouts-most-in-demand-childrens-club/

As of yesterday I'm no longer associated with a unit or district. I've lost interest in scouting and now have 3 grandkids that I care much more about. I adore them and even though I've had a cold twice, hoof in mouth and covid, all since the start of Nov, it's worth it. But I don't have time for meetings with bored teenagers or campouts with a handful of scouts. If the parents were still engaged like they were even 10 years ago I'd make the time, but they're not. It seems the same way on this forum. I'm not a leader and I never thought I was. I just kept at it because I believed in it. I'm not going to change anything anymore. So, it's time to move on. I hope scouting figures things out. It was fun. I have good memories. There were some good people on this forum as well. I may poke my nose in once in a while but my interest is waning. I'd rather go for a hike to take some nice photos. Take care everyone. @RememberSchiff and @Eagle1993 , I'll start a thread in the moderator area.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2024/12/30/jimmy-carter-was-a-scout-leader-and-silver-buffalo-winner-known-for-telling-great-stories-around-the-campfire/

I was asked to pass the message below on to Survivors. It doesn't constitute an endorsement on my part. It's for information. That said, I do find it intriguing that an attorney, with no shortage of experience in the US Bankruptcy system, is calling BS on the way attorneys take 40% for essentially filling out a form. I Know, in a lot of cases they do more than that but how great would it be to see a change where those who need more pay more and those who need less pay less. You know....like any other service we purchase! It doesn't apply to my personal situation but given that a number of Survivors on this forum have expressed concerns about "the system" I'm passing it on. I hope anyone reaching out to this attorney will share their opinion of the discussion. Again, I'm not an attorney, I have no financial interest in this, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night. I'm just passing it on. July 22, 2024 To Survivors who have filed claims in the Boy Scouts bankruptcy case: My name is Lawrence Friedman. I am a former Director of the US Trustee Program. Prior to my appointment to that position, I was a bankruptcy trustee in Detroit where I administered more than 10,000 bankruptcy cases under both Chapter 7 and Chapter 11 of the bankruptcy code. I discovered considerable fraud and abuse in the bankruptcy system, and I began writing and speaking about my findings, ultimately testifying multiple times before the US Senate Subcommittee on proposed reforms to the bankruptcy system. My inside view led to my appointment as the Director of the Program responsible for the oversight of the bankruptcy system. Within 90 days of my appointment, I was faced with the mega bankruptcies of Enron, WorldCom and Adelphia. I immediately championed a change in policy which mandated the appointment of examiners in each of these cases. Examiners bring transparency to the process, and examiners also act as a clearing house for information thus adding efficiencies to the administration of these cases. Since leaving the Department of Justice, I have been increasingly troubled by the use of the bankruptcy system to solve societal problems. My focus is on these mass tort cases where victim Survivors are being victimized again by bad actor tort lawyers. I believe that my team can bring these matters to the attention of the Court and effectively free up more than $70,000,000.00 in funds which these lawyers are claiming in fees and which rightfully should go to Survivors. The explosion of claims within these cases is particularly troubling. I have authored several editorials and white papers on this topic. That said, real change comes from action. I have been reviewing claims filed in the BSA case and I am appalled by the practices of some of the attorneys. Many used claim aggregators to solicit clients and filed claims in these cases using the standard bankruptcy proof of claim form. The claim form is available online and was designed to allow non-lawyers to fill it out. The form doesn’t even have to be correct because if it’s not the debtor will object to the claim, and you get an opportunity to fix it. Yet every law firm that solicited large numbers of claimants had the client sign a one-page retainer agreement that gives the lawyers a 40% contingency fee for doing nothing more than filing out this form. The lawyers want to pretend this is a typical contingency fee case when in fact all they did was simply fill out a form. Rather than collecting 40% of the money paid to victims, these lawyers should get a fee similar to petition preparers – non- lawyers who help people fill out forms to be filed in court – which would be more like $150.00. There are other serious problems with these retainer agreements such as whether they comply with state laws and state bar ethics rules. Just as in the mega corporate cases, transparency in these mass tort cases is critical to fairness. My firm wants to help Survivors get the attention and assistance they deserve. Any compensation we receive would be a small fraction of the 40% they are being overcharged now!" I am interested in chatting with any victim Survivors who have expressed dissatisfaction with the manner in which their claim has been handled by their current counsel. They can contact me with no obligation at:mailto:lfriedman@friedmanpartners.net

Welcome to the forum, @Eloisefig. That's certainly no fun. It sounds like you've already made up your mind and I can't blame you. Good luck. But I'm not sure how much better luck you're going to have elsewhere. It seems to me that every troop I know of is struggling. Anyway, I few observations: In your meeting with the SPL and ASPL you dumped a whole lot of new ideas on them that they likely don't understand if they've never seen it before. Babies don't take smaller steps then older children, they stumble around and crash a lot. Sometimes they need to be caught before they crack their head. Keep that in mind. Hint: "baby steps" are smaller than you might think and you need to help them learn. Next, you can't get PLs to show up. What's their incentive? I hate to say this but you expecting them to show up won't work. A bigger issue, and the reason I just left my troop, might be that there are no expectations about scouts that everyone in the troop understands. If you have a POR, you're expected to try and that means show up. If you're an older scout then you're expected to help out. Every scout in the troop is expected to go on a certain percentage of the campouts. Whatever, just decide and let everyone know. If the parents aren't in on this then you're out of luck. Next, everything is planned by adults. Of course it is. That's because nobody can agree on what the scouts own and what the adults own. The easiest thing for the adults is to just plan it. Next, SM isn't showing up. My guess is he's afraid of losing his job. Just a hunch, I've seen it a lot lately. Anyway, there may be a reason. Next, MB's aren't up to par. Pick your battles. That one is not nearly as important as the others. Scouts enjoy a good program, they really don't care for the MBs unless they're well done. If you can work the MBs into the program then great, otherwise that's just a bridge too far. If you can find a better run troop, that's fine. But what does your son think? If he has friends in the troop and you yank him out then you might win the battle and lose the war. Scouts that don't have friends in the troop when they're 14 just quit. Finally, a caveat to all I've written. There are different ways to run a troop. Different people have different ideas on how best to do it. Different people get different results. Some people are sure they know the right way. I'm not. That said, here are some other observations. YMMV Scouting is a drop in program when it should be a team (patrol) based program. If you don't show up someone else will deal with it. Besides, the only thing important is advancement and that's about as self serving as it gets. So, how to make the patrols more of a team and less a mob? Projects? Like 4H or robotics? Going on a hike or a campout just isn't enough anymore. Scouting has so many little moving parts that it's really hard to keep track.. Advancement, OA, PLCs, camporees, high adventure, MBs, roundtables, recruitment, popcorn, uniforms, safety training, some excellence program, Courts of honor, patches, pins, the guide to advancement, and on and on and on. Can you deal with all of this, by yourself, in an hour or so a week? Of course not. But that's where this program needs to go. Two or three adults should be able to run a troop of 30 to 40 scouts. There is only one aim of scouting - get better at living the scout law. There's always room for improvement. There's one place to do that - the outdoors. Everything else is a distraction.

So you you may have remembered I was depressed because it seemed one of my Scouts had given up. He had about 2 weeks before 18 and still needed a projected and 3 MBs. HE MADE IT! (And yes, I am shouting with joy!) He was able to get his project approved and completed within 10 days. Even had a nice write up about it too. As fro the MBs, he was able to find his paperwork from his old troop on one of them, one was finished at the meeting, and one was finished right before getting everything approved for BOR. He had the paperwork, but could not find it in time for the meeting. Just waiting for the EBOR. And we may be growing We had 2 Scouts visit this past month, and two more are scheduled to visit this week. Life is good.

@MattR Nice to have you around the campfire Thanks for serving as a Moderator! The BSA will limp along until it perishes from self-inflicted wounds or radically transforms. The former is more likely than the latter. Scouting will always be a thing. It was a thing even before it was called Scouting... young people having adventures together and learning how to get along in their own little "citizenship" laboratory. Societal ills will increase to a point where adults will realize we need to help young people learn how to replace us. And then there will be a revival. Take your grandkids camping, and do your own version of Scouting. Adventures, skills, and teamwork with grandpa sound like great fun. Enjoy the hikes 😜 And post a picture!

And there in lies the problem. Get out and do. Way to much focus on classroom merit badges, class instruction, checking boxes, adult leaders preventing experiential learning. How many times have we seen discussions on how to game the system so a Scout can get 20 nights camping? The goal should be to go out and do things, not just meet a metric. 20 nights should be simple to attain, and the Scout will learn volumes along the way. We were looking at what an AOL needs to do in order to earn arrow of light now, apparently camp with a BSA troop is no longer a thing, visit yes, but they can camp with their patrol. But, looking at the "Adventures" the first multiple pages is about safety considerations; food allergies anaphylaxis and epi-pens, behavior around campfires, etc etc etc. No doubt all good things, but this "safety moment" (and it's more than a moment) is front and center for every Adventure. Safety is important, but that cannot be our reason for being. To a parent new to the program, is this the right "Go to Market" thinking? Then they move into a BSA Troop, and "GASP!!!", the youth do stuff on their own!!. Scouts is OUTSIDE and doing stuff. The leadership training should be a less formal item and more something they experience and grow from. They will screw up, we as adult leaders can assist in making the course correction. The simplicity of the Troop program is that a 12 year old whom ignores advice and input and gets wet when their tent leaks or sleeps cold when they did not bring the recommended gear LEARNS A LESSON from THEIR actions. They hopefully realize they need to do better. Later, maybe as they go off to college or first job, they can recall that all advice is not bad. They can help themselves be better.

I think you guys are being a bit naive on this one. If there's one thing I've learned about the scouting program it's that motivating scouts about character only works on those that essentially already get it. If a scout doesn't want to be bothered about character then it's a really hard slog. So either the parents believe that character is important or, on occasion, a scout's parents are bad enough that the scout sees a need for good character. But that's not to say that there aren't lots of scouts or their parents that want to get Eagle. And there lies a big problem. Absolutely vanity is preventing improvement. But greed is oh so much worse. If you really want to improve program quality then remove the biggest source of greed, rank advancement. Be a scout because you believe in the ideals, not that you're going to get a better job. I got so tired of listening to scouts that, when asked why they were in scouts, said first that they were going to get a better job or into a better university or it would make their resume look better. It used to be very rare when they said that. It always used to be about fun, friends and the outdoors. But it has changed. I was shocked the first time I heard something about payback. The last time I asked a group of scouts why they were in scouts it was close to half that said they were going to get something from earning a badge. Maybe it's my town that has changed but I doubt it. TikTok, likes, influencers, search algorithms ... our lexicon has changed to that of greed and dopamine hits. This program used to work because most of the volunteers really believed in the fundamentals. They believed in it so much that they wanted to make it work. Quality would have been an easy sell then. But that has eroded over time. There are still people that believe in the the ideals but there needs to be a critical mass of those people in order for a unit to deliver a good program, where the idea of improving quality is even viable. My guess is that most units feel they're delivering a quality program if some kids are getting Eagle patches. And it makes sense because that's how the program is sold. Character is what you do when nobody is looking. It's not rank. It's not NESA. It's not OA. It's not a MB sash. It's not data in a database. It's what you do with your patrol when no adults are around. So, the first thing to do to make a quality program is to focus on a program with character and remove all the other distractions. Eagle is the biggest distraction. This reminds me of the Woodbadge game Win All You Can. Eagle is just goading people to do bad things. But they never come out and say it. It used to be that it was a method and could be used to develop character but that script has flipped. But that will never happen.

#1 Game systems and internet growth #2 Burnout by expanding to younger and younger ages. #3 Lack of perceived rich and rewarding program; whether caused by burnout or too much focus on leadership or just plan lack of focus on fun and adventure. Now, those 1990s kids are having kids and deciding there are better ways for their own kids to spend time. IMHO, little of the membership drop is about policies. It's about product and perception of the product.

Very prudent move. IMHO we should NOT be self-certifying ourselves as competent in skills where we are at risk for liability. We only make ourselves more liable, use third party certification! ACA for camps, YMCA for swimming, Red Cross or American Heart Association for CPR/First Aid, NRA or USA Shooting for firearm safety. My $0.02,

Hello from the U.K…. Been a wee while since I posted round here. Anyway I thought I’d swing by as I’m currently at scouts and it’s all gone a bit American! And I’m stood in a corner with not much to do with the PLs in danger of making me redundant. The scout program here while using the patrol system tends to use it as a way or organising a troop rather than the patrols being totally independent. At the moment however I have all 5 patrols doing their own thing having planned it all themselves. (Some looking a bit more organised than others but that’s teenagers for you) I’m in serious danger of having nothing to do. Two patrols pioneering, one cooking and the others getting creative with photography and clay respectively. A couple of adults are keeping an eye from a distance. The other two have vanished off to tidy up some camping gear. its all looking a bit American! anyway hope everyone is doing well, I must pop by here more often

How about going back to an earlier version?

I would say my troop is pretty outdoorsy. We camp 10/12 months, with a lock in IF possible in December and 2 weekends of Scouting For Food in February, being the 2 months we do not camp. Even during COVID, we continued to meet, virtually and outside, had monthly day trips in the outdoors, and even did our own summer camp. Yes we car camp, but we also backpack, cycle, and do canoeing and whitewater activities. And the Scouts pick Summer Camps with the program they want, with the only caveat being it has to be within an 8 hour drive. The last 2 batches of Webelos that visited, the activities scared the parents.

Thank you all for the input. We spoke with the camp and they will make sure that troops follow the proper procedure and that no one will have sole use over any portion of the facilities.

I too used to, stress USED TO, do that. But was informed that unless the requirement specifically states you cannot use an activity for more than one requirement, you gotta accept it. I am waiting for the duel enrolled Girl Scout/Scouting America Scout to do one project for both their Gold Award and Eagle.

I had a pretty traditional Scouting experience that culminated in earning the Eagle Scout award after I had a lot of fun and finally got around to the paperwork. One of my best my friends could be described as a "Paper Eagle." He made it through the program with very little camping and had everything wrapped up by high school so he could focus more on academics. Today, he's a professor at a prestigious university and travels the world to present his research. He is absolutely someone we'd want to represent the program. Scouting just means different things to different people and we all have to be OK with that for the BSA to survive.

Kennedy isn't hard to find. I reached out online and shared your post. His comment was "I don't know why this person seems to have a vendetta against me. I hope he finds peace. We knew we wouldn't make everyone happy but I do appreciate the people who have kept in touch with all the TCC members and showed their appreciation. I haven't commented on the settlement publicly in a very long time and like others, I'm waiting for a decision on the appeal. So others know, I have not received A DIME from this settlement. I've heard nothing from the Trust regarding an award. I also have NOTHING to do with the Catholic Church. My lawsuit prior to the bankruptcy was against the BSA, local council, and my abuser; NOT the Catholic Church. Anyone who cares can search the New York State cases online and see those details. I filed as John Doe but it was the first BSA lawsuit after the window opened. Frankly, if I'm the last one to see a dollar from this I'm okay with that and anyone who says differently doesn't know me and is just plain wrong." My own two cents.... I get why people feel pro and con about the settlement. So much is the product of a bankruptcy system NOT designed for the Survivors of child sexual abuse. As far as Saint Kosnoff having all the answers, I can only shake my head at the reality that the BSA put its bets on the Coalition, of which Mr. Kosnoff was an initial member before the Court expedited his removal in an agreement with the remaining Coalition leaders. The Coalition, despite representing 65% of the total claims, then failed to deliver the remaining 10% of the needsd votes. This cost all Survivors a year and who knows how many died in the interim. But maybe the Coalition firms don't care because the claims live on, and so too does the 33-40% contingency to those firms. And the capper, the Court just issued a verdict that the Coalition should receive ZERO dollars from the BSA because their work provided NO substantial contribution and was duplicative of the work already being done by the TCC and other parties. Whether you love or hate the plan, facts matter. Here's some other facts that I'm sure will piss people off. At the time that the BSA declared bankruptcy some Survivors were days away from their cases going to court, those in open States lost their individual cases and what could have been a big award, and those in "closed" States had zero path to a lawsuit being heard in court. But, the plan included a one-year period when Survivors could mobilize in their States and have the SOLs changed so they'd be in a better matrix position. That happened in some States and continues to happen, perhaps too late for this bankruptcy but now allowing suits against abusers and other entities. That's equity and not equality; but was the reality at the time of the bankruptcy. That's "business" and not justice. That's bankruptcy. I don't like it and in a perfect world there would have been no closed States and a bottomless pit of money. Neither was the case then, or now. This whole "liquidate the BSA" fantasy is just that. Survivors are UNSECURED creditors and will be left fighting over the scraps after SECURED creditors are satisfied. As well, if that happens you'd better like your attorney and they'd better be ready to get your case heard ASAP before other BIG awards wipe out the available money. Oh, you're going to sue the insurance companies? You'd better be prepared to wait 7-10 years for that settlement AND hope others haven't beaten you to the policy limits. Uh...and if your attorney has hundreds or thousands of clients, start thinking about how you'll get in line early before every other Survivor who wants to do the same. It won't happen if your case needs a ton of discovery and work or is of low "value." Lastly, if you think the insurers will sit around forever waiting to pay, guess what, if the amount of claims exceeds their assets (like was the case with Century Insurers), they'll do this....file for bankruptcy and go into "runoff", again leaving some with nothing. I'm sorry to be a downer. I just want some who think the solution is for this plan to go up in flames to understand that some scenarios might be missing a bit of reality. Feel free to rip me up. I'm not going to debate hypotheticals. I'll see you after the appellate court chimes in and we can discuss reality. PS, the court is going to deny the appeal 😉

Because you care? And maybe because it's extra-rewarding to see a scout that has faced challenges be able to accomplish the 'top achievement'? It also sounds like you know this scout a bit more than perhaps others. A scout in our Troop went from not being able to write a paragraph without the lines drifting across the page, to taking AP European History. I think it's natural for us to root for the 'underdog' and want them to reach 'the pinnacle'.

Update 01/07/2025: The Court ruled that the proceeds from the sale, if it moves forward, can only be used as specified in the 1944 donor's deed when the Scouts were given the property: “for uses that support camping activities for Boy Scouts in Central Maine.” Council may not use proceeds to pay down debt or fund program services elsewhere in Maine. “Consequently, it would defy logic and nullify the law favoring charitable trusts to conclude that the (donor of the Camp Bomazeen property) intended to ‘reward’ Pine Tree with full title to Camp Bomazeen upon its absolute failure to follow his directions,” the justices wrote in their decision. "The state attorney general’s office sued the Pine Tree Council to block the sale of the camp, saying its plans to sell it and use the proceeds to help the council get out of debt violated the terms of the the deed to the property in place since it was donated by Dr. George Averill in the 1940s as a place where Scouts could camp." Source (good read): https://www.centralmaine.com/2025/01/07/camp-bomazeen-sale-must-benefit-central-maine-boy-scouts-court-says/

This looks like a response to a request from a Pack for the IRS to provide tax guidance. I think it has been clear that scout accounts are in the grey area of tax regulations. This is a case of don't ask permission and you will likely be fine. If some kid buys a C8 Corvette with his scout account, the IRS may have some questions. Outside of that, I have never seen evidence of a single issue with the IRS.

Those leetle scraps of cardboard... I can look at the ones in my shoebox collection and remember the folks that taught/exampled/pushed/cajoled/applauded/rewarded me along the way. Merit Badges, ranks, OA, camps.... will today's Scouts save those scraps? WIll they miss them... There is a comic with a fun stand up routine who struck a cord with me... he mentioned the photos we like to show people.... "here we are at uncle frederick's house. That's grandma Matilda and ...." then he talks about WHAT we photographed: special events, formal photo portraits, everyone neat and pretty.... "Now, what will our grandkids show off their phone..."here's my breakfast in 2024, isn't that a NEAT waffle....the maple syrup was just too too..."

Thanks to all who have provided feedback and support over the past 2.5 years as I've returned to Scouting as my son's Den Leader. I really enjoy the comradery of this message board. Happy Thanksgiving!

Over the course of my volunteer career, and through the several councils I have been involved in, the adult volunteer corps has been treated as expendable. BSA should protect the rights of every member vigorously, youth or adult, when needed. I talk with many who were formerly involved with the program, and ask them if they'll lend a hand. There is an element of genuine fear of dealing with other peoples' kids, and being one misunderstanding away from accusation and false ignominy. My personal safeguard against this is to always have an adult buddy "attached" to the hip. I can readily recall at least four instances over the years where a Scout "heard" something that I or another adult did not actually say, misinterpreted it, reported it to parents/other leaders, and the accused adult thankfully had other adult witnesses to refute or clarify. I do not even do Scoutmaster conferences out of earshot any more. This is not the way it should be, but I have found it to be a prudent practice.

So funny. When I was a PL, we raided our parents’ pantries for what we would need for the weekend. Each member was responsible for an item. Stopping at the store was usually a Thursday evening activity. My kids recently described me as “chaotic good.”

Earmark weekends and "big" themes (canoe trip, campsgiving, district camporee) at annual planning conference. At APC they come up with a prioritized list of locations they want to camp. Outdoor activities chair and I (adults) work off that list to get sites booked throughout the year. PLC meets monthly and plans specifics based on where we land for campsite. We used to try to earmark specific sites for specific months, but found the popular sites were often hard to get. So we just try month after month until we get it. Then that's where we'll be and the PLC determines the theme/activities for the campout based on all the facts. We are (now) strictly Patrols on campouts. Cooking included. No exception and I NEVER split patrols. Either they just deal with the fact there's only 2 or 3 of their patrol going or the Patrol decides to team up with anther Patrol. But it's the entire patrol teaming up. I don't permit patrol mates to be separated. And I usually encourage them NOT to team up and to just roll with it. It's not perfect, but it's youth lead and Patrol method and IMO that's the way.

@RememberSchiffIMHO we should NOT be self-certifying ourselves as competent in skills where we are at risk for liability. Like YPT? 😉😁

It's a problem. Our troop was an adventure program, but we were going against the trend of Nationals push to make advancement the program priority. The troop grew from 15 to 100 scouts in 7 years and we retained more scouts 14 and older scouts than any unit in Oklahoma at that time. But it wasn't just adventure that attracted scouts, it was a patrol method program where scouts were included in a group that wanted them there. The members of the patrols learned how to work as a team by learning how to accept and support each other through the fun and trials of adventure. They learned how to be true brothers. Adventures are fun, but they are also physically and mentally demanding. Each member of the team has to learn and practice skills to succeed physically and mentally with the help of the other patrol mates working together as a team. Just the simple activity of preparing meals after a long day in the wilderness can be demanding of tired patrol members. They learn the skill of serving. That's why adventure is important for scouting. Barry

I agree 100 percent. One reason we changed to a backpacking troop was to get away from the mindset that high adventure started at age 14. We strived to make every campout some kind of adventure. For all the scouts. Barry

Concur and withdraw my conclusion. (Wish I could edit above, but so be it). As you noted, per Jeremy Castleberry, "the council offered to a a boys only also.. But the idea lacked interest from boys only troops." Therefore no argument can be made that this is a problem as the non-elected group chose not to have a like event.

BSA using the legal system to deter other organizations from using the terms Scouts and Scouting.

Tradition. There are a lot of people who were in scouting as a youth and want their kids in it to share the tradition. Americana. There are people drawn to it from the aspect that is iconic and part of the overall American experience. Oath & Law. People are drawn to the oath and law. There is a certain thing about wanting your kids practicing certain principals/ideals and being around other kids who are also practicing those principals and ideals. Outdoors. There are youth and adults who want their kids to learn outdoors skills.

This. ----------------- In the National Annual Report, https://www.scouting.org/about/annual-report/year2023/ they should change the verbiage from "earned" Merit Badges to "awarded" Merit Badges. There is a difference... Consider Camping Merit Badge. (For which, even after much advice and counsel, several of our Scouts still sign up every year at Summer Camp.) Including the subordinate items, there are 30 different requirements to complete for the badge. How many are "outdoors" requirements? 5: 8 (d) While camping in the outdoors, cook ...[three meals]... [It's funny that they even have to preface this one.] 9 (a) Camp a total of at least 20 nights... 9 (b) On any of these camping experiences, you must do TWO of the following... [so, counted as two...] 9 (c) On any of these camping experiences, perform a conservation project... And of these five, I would posit that all should be done with the unit. Also, of the five, which usually are completed at Summer Camp? (I'll let you answer that one yourself.) The rest of the 25 requirements are academically oriented. Discuss, describe, explain, plan, etc... Some could be made into activities, but generally are not. Many "sessions" I have witnessed involved an instructor (under 18, so not the counselor...) lecturing to kids sitting around a picnic table, and then marking off a requirements for them. The Scouts endure this torture just to get the piece of cloth... ----------------------------- Before signing a blue card, I ask Scouts about the activities they did for the badge. I always found discrepancies for a sizeable number from Summer Camps,. When I pointed these out to the Scouts, most admitted they had never even read the requirements. They just relied on the instructor to teach them what they needed. Less than a fourth of these Scouts would take me up on my offer to finish the requirements as they were written, so that they actually "earned" the badge. Discussing this with the committee, I was dispirited that many of the parents held the same view... that if the instructor/counselor signed off on it, it was good enough. I told them I would decline to sign blue cards if I found that a Scout had not completed the requirements. The committee accepted this. But, there are other "unit leaders" who did not agree, and those leaders are the ones who signed blue cards or would mark things completed in Scoutbook. I am only responsible for my own actions. After filing about 8 reports https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-800_WB.pdf with zero feedback or questions from the camps we attended, I realize that time was wasted, and those reports went into file #13. I call this the "dirty little secret" of BSA Summer Camps... the wide-ranging lack of integrity in the Merit Badge program. The consequences of this are visible across the board, IMO. Scout skills are abysmal. Summer Camp is supposed to be about unit long-term camping and doing activities that units do not normally have the expertise to put on for themselves. Summer Camp is not about Merit Badges. But we have corrupted the "camping" and turned this experience into something it is not supposed to be. And Scouts, parents, leaders, staffs, "counselors", and professionals turn a blind eye. Why? Because Merit Badges generate revenue.

While there are a few delusional folks out there, I think the vast majority of parents sign their kids up for club teams simply because their kids enjoy playing sports. Parents don't mind the added expense and time commitment as long as their child is having fun, making friends, and getting exercise. In many large suburban school districts, kids need to play their primary sport during the club season in order to make their high school varsity team. This is most common with soccer, basketball, and baseball / softball. A kid's skill level is unlikely to keep up with peers if they sit out the club season. That's an extra 2-3 months of practice for the club participants (compounded over 10 years). Usually, the high school coach doesn't require club participation. Rather, when it's time to make the varsity roster, it's obvious who has been putting in the work and who hasn't. I love Scouting. It was the best experience of my youth; however, I can tell my son prefers basketball. I will try to thread the needle as long as we can. However, if you're looking for legitimate reasons why families might prefer travel sports to Scouting, I've got a few: Civic Pride - Today, there is more pride associated with high school sports teams than Scouting. Two years ago, our local high school won a state championship in basketball. The town threw a parade and we still have signage up marking the achievement. My son wants to have an Eagle Court of Honor like his dad, but I think he'd really prefer to ride a fire truck through downtown. Socialization - Youth sports have effectively replaced a lot of bowing and softball leagues for adults. Parents make friends while traveling for youth sports. Unlike Scouting, you can pack a cooler to most events. A colleague of mine did the youth hockey grind for many years, but now that his son is in the Navy, he misses it. Exclusivity - I applaud Scouting for its inclusivity; however, I can tell my son is getting frustrated by the behavior issues of a few Packmates (so much so that it's souring his experience). Club sports try and serve as many youth as possible, but they won't hesitate to cut the trouble-makers loose. Competition - My son is frustrated that everyone gets the badges in Cub Scouts, even though some kids only show up to half the events and others are poorly behaved. Sports force kids out of their comfort zones. We can joke about kids being soft, but I watch my son guard peers who are better than him and it both humbles him and strengthens his resolve. Some competition is good, even at a young age. No Fundraising - Sometimes it's nice just to be able to write a check. Few YP Concerns - Self explanatory.

To be honest, I think the program is too easy to get wrong and consequently scouts are not joining or are leaving because they're not having fun when they're younger or not being challenged when they're older. It's just that simple. Add to that the economy and work environment (always on) and the parents aren't having fun either. The program is confusing, contradictory and looks like it's been evolving over a hundred years in high level committee meetings. @Jameson76's comment that the BSA needs to focus on what the program is really rings true to me. If it's teamwork/ patrol method and skills then why are there ranks? No other youth activity has ranks so why have them for scouts? If the answer is that it's been done forever or it's the only way they know how to motivate kids (my suspician) then maybe that should change. Why are there so many Cit in X merit badges? Citizenship really isn't a skill and so these just look like an extension of school. It certainly has nothing to do with the outdoors. Only needing 20 nights of camping to get the biggest patch certainly looks like the outdoors isn't really important. And what about physical fitness? Wishful thinking? If scouting is supposed to be in the outdoors then why is 90 percent of the time spent indoors at meetings. That's just confusing. This is why adults don't volunteer, the youth are not getting much out of the program and the numbers continue to drop. Here's an idea. The aim is living the scout law. The method is learning skills in the outdoors. Go back to First Class is the last rank and all rank skills are about the outdoors. Merit badges are about other skills that can be learned in the outdoors, to be done in the outdoors, by patrols. Patrols decide what outdoor adventure they want to conquer. Since MBs are patrol based, MB fairs are where patrols go to learn new skills for new adventures. Summer camp is patrol based outdoor skill learning and adventures. Roundtable is a place where adults learn new outdoor skills to teach their youth. This won't take years to understand. It will take a half hour to describe and maybe 3 months to get comfortable with. But none of that will happen because too many people feel that what was working 60 years ago should still work now. That's ridiculous. Times have changed.

I have been told that Scouting has been my surrogate family, with the adults in my life being surrogate fathers, the Scouts in my youth as surrogate brothers, and depending upon what age as an adult I was, me serving in a older brother or father role. I have served in various roles for over 30 years, and until recently also had a passion for Scouting. Read some of my posts over the past 5 years so see issues. I have rebuilt so much over the years, and the current state of Scouting is deeply depressing: declining membership, inability to get council support, ad nauseum. My troop is dying, and the adults were pushing to try and keep it alive. But the two recent changes, Name and coed, really disappointed folks. Now I read on Mike Walton's FB post about how they are "simplifying the Scouting program" which some are interpreting to mean "dumbing down." And that frightens me more than anything else, except the increasing cost of Scouting. Sadly too many professionals view it as a job, and not a movement. Very few good pros last long. Sadly to succeed as a professional, you cannot look at the long-term, only meeting your immediate goals, and let the mess to be cleaned up by those who succeed you. That felt by many who have spent years and decades with the BSA. Many of us have given up time and treasure, giving up our free time to make Scouting work. Sadly I have even sacrificed my family at times. Prior to my sons getting into Scouting, every single argument my wife and I had, save one, was over my involvement with Scouting: "another meeting!?!?" "Another camp out?!?!?!" , "Why can't you you go to dinner with my aunt while she is in town?" etc. But lately I am having a hard time supporting Scouting outside of the troop. So you are not alone.

18 Eagle required MBs can be done fully/nearly fully indoor while 4 (cooking, camping, hiking and cycling) have substantial outdoor requirements. BSA lost me on "scouting is outdoors" when they added Citizenship in Society merit badge. Most of my Eagle Scouts have said Wilderness Survival should be Eagle Required but yet BSA went with another discuss/research/report type badge. In addition, my Troop was the only one to camp outdoors during our recent district's Klondike. In the past the Patrols camping outdoors would be awarded more points...not this year. In fact, the Patrols who did cabin camping were able to work on sled decorations (earning trail points) and eat in the dining hall while my patrols cooked their own their own meals outside. They were happy to campout but clearly the pressure and awards are emphasizing indoor cabin camping. Heck, look at summer camps and the near complete loss of patrol cooking options. We struggle to find camps that support outdoor patrol cooking. BSA may say outdoors but their program, district and councils are all pushing more activities indoors (and in some cases away from the patrol method). Their advertising looks great but not aligned with 90% of what BSA has become.

25+ years from now, folks will still be saying "Boy Scouts," "BSA," etc. Just look at Venturing and all the older names that had nothing to do with the Venturing program still in use, i.e. 'venture crews," "Venture Scouts," etc. And I can tell you from the discussions i have had since it was announced, folks with years of irreplaceable knowledge, skills, abilities, time, and treasure are upset. In my neck of the woods we have lost a lot of folks over recent membership changes, and finding replacements is difficult to impossible. Best money example is the current FOS goal is 5%, yes FIVE PERCENT (emphasis), of what it was 25 years ago.. And if you adjust both today's goal to what the 1999 adjusted dollars are , it is only 1.4%, yes ONE POINT 4 PERCENT (again emphasis), of the 1999 adjusted goal. And do not forget the volunteers who conducted trainings, program activities , commissioner service, etc who have left. We have lost a lot.

I think that changing the name to appease simpletons isn't a good solution, but it seems to be the way the BSA wants to go anyway. Rather than expect people to be critical thinkers and rise up to the organization's level, it will come down to meet them. We saw this with the elimination of the Bobcat badge. Simpletons were confused so the solution was to destroy a legacy rather than insist that people take time to learn and understand. To me, the BSA has been the only constant in my life. My parents divorced when I was young, so neither was in my life 100% of the time. We moved around in the Air Force, so no location was a constant either. Consequently, I feel very little devotion to anything. Haven't seen my dad in 2 years. Haven't seen my mom in about a year and a half. I haven't seen one of my sisters since 2021, the rest in about 2 years. It doesn't bother me because it was all fluid anyway. Missing a weekly Scout meeting was murder as a kid and being forced to not be at our meetings these days has made me very grumpy. Now I have to question my future involvement. If the organization is so fluid as to completely change its name and toss away over 100 years of being a solid foundation simply to appease the simpletons, is it really something I want to dedicate my time to? I'd estimate that I've spent about 1000 hours a year for the last 3 years on Scouting. I'm currently a pack committee chair, a unit commissioner, and a part-time OA Associate Advisor. Frankly, I don't know if I can continue to advocate for an organization that is willing to compromise itself essentially for "likes". While a name change may seem like a small thing, it's not. If your parents decided that they were going to change the family name it would be a pretty significant event. If this came right after they decided to toss out some item you would have inherited, the impact would be even more significant. Changing the name to me makes "Scouting America" equal to Trail Life, American Heritage Girls, and whatever the other youth orgs with a short history are. It tosses away a legacy and a history simply because people are unwilling to look beneath the surface. Makes me question the values of the people at the top.

After talking to a professional recently, the writing in the wall that the "trial" period of 8/24-7/25 will be successful and full integration will occur. Also from the discussion, if you do not go coed, the council may not be able to help you recruit. I know my troop's volunteers will be meeting about folding the troop at the end of the year. Between existing challenges, and hint that we need to go coed or we will not be supported hit hard. But as @Scoutldr said, That is the sentiment of a lot of the boys I have worked with over the years. Sadly there are fewer and fewer places for just boys. The same research GSUSA uses to support girls only places and organizations, also supports boys only places and organizations. But sadly society could care less about boys and men. Maybe that is why men are essentially checking out.

And then you join and realize 90% of BSA activities are meetings and merit badge clinics where you have to write reports while adult leaders argue if googling information for your report was sufficient or if you should have used an Encyclopedia written in 1982.

Adults are the worst enemy to patrol method. We apply our sensibilities and biases to a process that the youth see no issue with. Last campout we had 5 patrols. 1 patrol was two scouts. 1 patrol was four scouts. They had a great time, they cooked and enjoyed their meals and were happy to have only their own dishes to contend with. I subscribe completely the B-P's POV: "The patrol system is not one method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the only method." There is another tenant of B-P I fully subscribe to: "My ideal camp is where everyone is cheery and busy, where the patrols are kept intact under all circumstances, and where every patrol leader and Scout takes a genuine pride in his camp and his gadgets." So, in my unit - Patrols cook. Patrol Leaders have the perogative to team up with other patrols if they feel their patrol attendance is too low to justify standing alone. That is a Patrol Leader decision - not an adult decision. But if the Eagle Patrol leader decides with only 2 people coming to the next campout they would like to partner with the Owl Patrol who has 4 - to make 6 total - the entire Eagle Patrol teams up with the entire Owl Patrol in partnership for cooking and KP and activities. We once did this thing where adults would decide something like "With 16 scouts going, we should split into two patrols." This was misguided. This is leadership, problem solving, negotiating opportunities lost if adults get in the mix.

All good responses so far. I apologize for not including this phrase in my prior reply as I feel it is very important; others have hinted at it in their responses. I believe that Scouting done well is evidence of the truth of this statement. Not eveything that counts is measureable, and not everything that is measureable counts. (paraphrase of a quote often attributed to Einstein)

“Boy Scouts lets him be a kid.” At his pack's annual Blue and Gold Banquet, nine-year-old Cameron Echols received a wooden axe for his bravery in fighting his cancer. The axe had inscriptions ‘A Scout is Brave’ with Cameron’s name and the scripture Joshua 1:9 — “Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God is with you.” "Cameron was diagnosed with a brain tumor last year, a myeloblastoma, near his cerebellum in his brain that was blocking fluid from going to the rest of his body. A surgery was performed that removed most of the tumor, but to get the rest they used radiation that he went through up until last December. Cameron is still going through chemotherapy and will continue that up until this fall with the hope he is done sometime in September or October. In the meantime, scouting has given the young boy a true outlet to feel like a normal kid for a bit and get away from everything he is enduring." More at source (text with audio): https://www.clantonadvertiser.com/2025/03/26/echols-fighting-cancer-with-family-scouts-support-behind-him/

When our troop was 100 scouts strong, I would say 50 percent of those scouts were in sports and other outside activities that demanded some of their time. But, it was seasonal. I average troop meetings between September and December averaged about 60 scouts. 100 scouts January through March, then 60 to 80 scouts until June. We took 100 scouts to summer camp and then the cycle started over again. I agree that parents understand the value of the scouting experience better than their kids, but, I also think if the troop has a good (fun) program, the scouts will attend when they can. They will come to meetings late after practice and arrive at campouts after their Friday night or Saturday games. The parents are big part of that because they have to take up the slack for getting their kids to scouts. I remember one scout showing me his schedule to be the elected SPL in two years. It was impressive to see on paper, but I also remember it included the time on the high school swim team. And he did it. Of course, I'm learning that families today are different than when I was a scout leader 20 years ago. But, that was our experience. Don't sweat sports. You just need to make sure the program is worth coming back to. Barry

This thread is bumping with all of the controversial topics. I don't buy the stages of decline. Most of the changes are in line with the international scouting community (the name is more inline with international naming conventions, 173 of the 216 WOSM members are full coed at last count, shooting sports is heavily regulated in most countries, this seems like standardization not grasping for straws.). I've heard the moms discussion points, it's what BSA teaches the professional scouters to focus on. For some reason there is an emphasis on hooking moms on the value of the program and little to no focus on dads; maybe it has something to do with the more than 50% of moms being single so perhaps BSA see's moms as the primary decision maker for kids activities? I agree with a lot of the side chatter on that chart, there seems to be a lot of outside influence on those membership numbers (post war baby booms, economics, etc ... ). I don't agree at all with the watering down of the program or gaming the system comments. Advancement is a method, having fun should run parallel to 12-18 month advancement plan. There is a huge link to staying in the program and going to summer camp; almost every scout gains some advancement at summer camp which is probably the reason. I hear a lot of beyond sub par SM/ASM in my area talk about "fun" and "not advancement mills" and they all seem to have the same problem, scouts stuck below first class and then dropping from the program. again advancement is a method, far too many SM ignore it. I don't think the LDS exodus was as bad as everyone claims. LDS refuses to share membership numbers for their internal program since 2021; meanwhile if you check the LDS contingents website and photos to the world jamboree somehow everyone LDS that went was wearing BSA uniforms, patches, regalia, etc ... oh and they appear to be coed now to. I would love to see some numbers on LDS and on the previous LDS units. Utah has like 200+ units these days; how is that possible in a permanent exodus? Too much doom and gloom.

Now we are talking about BSA in general. You are way off on the homosexual vs bisexual comment. The great majority of pedophiles are heterosexual. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1556756/ On whether the Boy Scouts did their best... I don't think I can add anything that will change your mind but note that your description of how an SE or TCC would have analyzed the situation has no mention of doing the right thing and is all about liability and reputation.