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OK... a pet peeve... yelling "Signs Up!"

This is Scouting. Taken two days ago at just above 3250 feet at Middle Lion Camp in the Los Padres NF above Ojai, Ca. The group stayed there after hiking in, and woke up to snow. And they loved it. The scout is part of an all girl unit, though they do on occasion work with other units.

Yesterday my attorneys contacted me and informed me that my claim amount had been determined. After years of anxiety about what the outcome (I truly believed I deserved the maximum amount) my claim came in at 2.67 million. Yes, I know I will most like only get a fraction of that amount but the fact that my pain and suffering was valued at that amount is the most important aspect. In all honesty I cried, just like after 50 years of telling not one soul I finally opened up about what had happened to me. With the appeals and the court cases that may come up I know that this is not over yet, but I finally feel like I have crossed third base, and I am on my way to home plate. Over the past 22 hours I have thought quite a bit about how I have survived these past 6 years and the people that have given me moral support. I have reached out to those folks and thanked them. I now want to reach out to my survivor community on this forum and say thank you, without all of you I do not know how I would have made it. Thank you to Scouter Forum for giving me a place to vent my frustrations, state my opinions and allow me to interact with other survivors and not kicking me off the site. Thank you, moderators, for your patience. I am sure some of my posts made some of you cringe. I want to thank @ThenNow for always having my backside no matter how outrageous some of my posts were. Our DM's to each other always made me feel like I had a brother standing next to me. I want to thank the TCC (I am sure there are members here on Scouter Forum). I know that all of you took on an almost impossible thankless task that was never going to please everyone. One last thing (at least for now) @skeptic please no sad or confused faces. Maybe this will be the one post that you can give a green up arrow to that I have written. Thank you all, John

Unpopular opinion I'm sure, but: Eagle Scouts who can't congratulate a new Eagle without making it about themselves and mentioning that they are an Eagle (usually along with the year they earned it as well). Why not just a "Congrats, huge achievement, best of luck in your future endeavors."

Professional scouters that have clearly set goals that focus on raising money (for what nobody knows) rather than focusing on actually growing the program A National Organization that continues to believe the infrastructure needs to be reflective of the 70's (almost 5 million) rather than today (less than 1 million). Get rid of councils and overhead.

Had a good conversation with our COR last nite. Helps he is also a former SM and knows all the challenges I face in that role. We are on the verge of folding. He know it, our adults know it, and the Scouts may know it. We need one more Scout in order to recharter, and we are going full throttle on recruiting. Our DE says they can help us get into the schools. I hope that is true and he follows through, but the council's record on that is poor. But as Gandalf the White said, " There is always hope, a fool's hope." We will be doing our annual fundraiser as if we will be rechartering. Goal is to raise enough money to pay national and council fees, and summer camp. We will continue Scouting on. Back up plan is if the troop does not recharter, pay for everyone's, both adults and youth, registration and council fees, pay for summer camp, and save the rest to restart the troop at a later date. I am sticking around as SM until December 2026. I have idea on someone to replace me, but want to get them up to speed.

Tomorrow I head off on my first Scout week trip since the summer I turned 19. Back then, the troop consisted of my Scoutmaster who had been in the troop since 1933, the ASM who had been in since around 1960, my friend and fellow 18 y/o ASM, me, and three kids we recruited out of the 5th grade class of our old school at the beginning of the school year. We had a great time at our old camp - water skiing, motorboating, pioneering, a float trip, an overnight canoe trip, and various evening activities. I haven't been to a council camp/merit badge factory since the summer before I quit Scouting in 6th grade. We'll see how this goes. It's my son's first one. I intend to keep my distance from him as much as possible. He'll need to be his own person at the end of July when he attends another camp.

An April evening... Troop 544 was having their weekly meeting at their Scout Hut when law enforcement arrived to report a missing autistic child in the area. The scouts quickly organized into search patrols led by older members and an assistant scoutmaster. As temperatures dropped and daylight faded, the group found the child hiding in bushes and stayed with him to offer comfort until first responders arrived. Scout Salute, More at source including photos and map. https://www.nwfdailynews.com/story/news/local/2025/05/21/scout-troop-honored-by-okaloosa-commission-for-helping-to-find-child/83773869007/

So you you may have remembered I was depressed because it seemed one of my Scouts had given up. He had about 2 weeks before 18 and still needed a projected and 3 MBs. HE MADE IT! (And yes, I am shouting with joy!) He was able to get his project approved and completed within 10 days. Even had a nice write up about it too. As fro the MBs, he was able to find his paperwork from his old troop on one of them, one was finished at the meeting, and one was finished right before getting everything approved for BOR. He had the paperwork, but could not find it in time for the meeting. Just waiting for the EBOR. And we may be growing We had 2 Scouts visit this past month, and two more are scheduled to visit this week. Life is good.

Having worked in various joint commands in plans (J5), exercise (J7), and operations shops (J3), I have to tell you these things are FAR from free. Military exercises, deployments, employments, redeployment, and reconstitution (after the fact) are quite expensive, in fact. Literally hundreds of millions of your tax dollars are spent on these each year to maintain unit readiness. Difficult to stage? yes... Scarcity of opportunity? no. Quite the opposite. Military commands at all levels routinely have to cut exercises and practices from their schedules to support various "hobby horses" or "pet projects" the military is tasked to support based on political pressure. The National Jamboree is a good example of such a "pet project." Do the units supporting these get good training? Absolutely. Could the resources spent on the Jamboree be better used supporting other valid military training objectives? Absolutely. Do I support the use of military resources to enable the Jamboree? Absolutely 😜 (Sometimes the troops would rather support something at home like this, rather than flying to a third world country to practice their "wartime" skills there.)

In my opinion this is a sign of burnout in the leadership. In my opinion you want to meet every week unless a holiday falls exactly on the meeting day. What I have seen personally is that units who are looking for these excuses are suffering burnout in the leadership. The two week gap screams to me that the leadership is burned out and that their scouts are probably in a situation where they don't need the meetings to advance so it's just a burden meeting to those families.

I cringed when I read the term "Family Troop". My initial reaction was, "there's the final nail in the coffin of the Patrol Method".

Adults wearing Eagle rank patches. Not the square knot, the oval. And I'd personally let it slide for an 18 or 19-year-old, but I'm seeing too many 50-something men wearing an oval Eagle rank patch.

Seeing advancement become the sole purpose of scouting, then watching it get watered down to one and done and finally watching people in scouts wonder why parents don't put their kids in scouts anymore.

There's two things here, maybe related, maybe not. As an outsider with few years dealing with BSA (not involved with the settlement at all) I see things more from a corporate and legal lens. I agree with the assessment that doing the settlement fund piecemeal (going after councils, CO's, etc ... ) would have created a vast array of have and have nots. So many guilty parties (councils, units, charter orgs, perps) no longer exist, which would have prevented victims from seeking any restitution. I still struggle with these funded vs hypothesized fund numbers. What I know of nationals resources and debt and the councils local to me is that there really isn't much money out there, especially at the councils whom are mostly operating hand-to-mouth. To the discussion of Scouting America being around in the future; I have no doubt that Scouting America will be here in 100 years. I do think Scouting America will look a lot different, a lot more like how I understand scouting was 100 years ago. I think national is going to have to divest itself of a lot of physical property in order to get out of debt; maybe only Philmont surviving. I think the number of councils is going to shrink down to less than 100 (I think this will happen in the next 10 years). I think the number of council owned properties (camps) is probably going to shrink down to around 50 and start to get run more by professional adult camp staff and less by summer volunteers on a 4 season operational plan (the days of 7-9 weeks of summer camp run by barely paid OA seeking volunteers is coming to an end).

In 1989 when aged based patrols became the recommendation instead of Traditional, mixed aged patrols, that was the beginning of fall of the Patrol Method. In 2012, when they no longer allowed patrols to camp on their own without adult supervision, that furthered the fall. In 2018 when they no longer allowed patrols to have any day activities, i.e. patrol meetings, hikes, camp shopping etc, unless 2 registered adults over the age of 21, that nailed the coffin shut IMHO.

Going from memory here, so bear with me. One of the reasons for better quality control is that there are a lot fewer professionals, so there is no pressure to increase membership numbers. As a result volunteers are empowered more to do things. If a group of volunteers want to clean up camp to prepare for an event, they contact the camp warden (ranger) and Bob's your uncle, you can do it. I know of councils where you have to go through the council office and SE in order to have a work day, and they may even deny it! Another thing is that their standards when I was there had not changed. "One and Done" was not a thing. Emphasis on advancement, and Queen's Scout was not existent, compared to the pressure in the US. I have had folks tell me HA is a was a of time because there is little to no advancement involved. Instead their focus was on skills and adventure. Finally, they held their Scouts to higher expectations/standards. It was not uncommon for their Scouts and Ventures to go on a week long expedition without any adult supervision as part of the DoE Award program. Even today they do "Remote Supervision" as defined as: "Remote [Supervision] ‑ Where the Supervisor remains out of sight and hearing of the team and allows them to get on with the expedition without any intervention ‑ The Supervisor will have a good idea of roughly where the team are and how they are progressing ‑ This is the norm for the majority of practice expeditions and all qualifying expeditions. It allows the Supervisor to: ◦ Periodically observe the team without intervening ◦ Allow the team to make mistakes and to recover from them without outside intervention ◦ Support the team by remaining remote yet in the expedition area and able to intervene if absolutely necessary or if requested."

Here's a slight modification to @Eagle1993's comment about ditching the lions and tigers. Cubscouts was originally meant to be pre scouts, not it's own thing. The question is what would a cub program look like if the goal were to get every scout to bridge over? Just my guess but a 3 year program that was fair weather camping would be a start. Very little else. If the goal is to camp or play outdoors from May to September then it's pretty easy. Tie it to the troop so those kids see the scouts doing their thing. The UK has "groups" where each group has all age ranges covered. So make a group where, up front, the expectation is to prepare cubs and parents to be camping with the troop. Parents need to learn how to camp, how to have fun singing silly songs at camp fires, how to cook in the outdoors. Yes, the scouts need to learn this as well but that's obvious. Those 3 years are to teach the parents what scouting is about while they have fun with their kids. The pinewood derby is not important. The pins are not important. The badges and patches are not important. Learning how to have fun with your kids in the outdoors is important. That would be much easier on the parents than putting on a weekly program for kids that aren't mature, can't sit still and really need to burn a lot of energy. Final comment is that cubscouts is where cubs camp with their parents. Scouts is where they don't. Sure, slight modification would be a major change. I'm not sure what would happen with single parents and siblings and all that. Those are the details where the devil lies. My kids have their own now, so I'm probably the wrong person to ask anyway.

Thank you for the well wishes. Truly. Though I'm still barefooted on the floor attempting to navigate the final stanzas of this treacherous waltz with Kaa (through shards of my life and the lives of others), I'll take any encouragement offered. So, 1908 days after the Chapter 11 filing and 1755 days after submitting my Proof of Claim, I received my Allowed Abuse Claim letter. Who's counting, right? Living through many forms of abuse starting at the age of 3, spent many years drowning in self-medicating techniques through diverse (and sometimes creative) maladaptive behaviors. Along the path I've had my share of so-called, 'out of body experiences.' I have officially added reading that letter to the list. Whatever that means to you and however you envision it, that was surreal. I meandered around for hours then days, experiencing more manic, sleepless nights thinking, writing and, again, trying to avoid feeling it all yet again. The non-monetary narrative section placed me, appropriately, in the Tier One, penetration, category. Is that a "YAY!" moment? I suppose one celebrates such a thing, as twisted and morbid as that it surely is. The letter, signed by Randi Roth, the Claims Administrator, said in pertinent part: "Allowable" Claim. The Trust assesses seven basic eligibility criteria to determine whether your claim is "allowable." They include: (1) your submission was timely; (2) there was no previous resolution of your claim in litigation or another process; (3) you stated the acts of abuse that were suffered; (4) you established your connection to Scouting and showed that BSA, a local council, or certain Chartered Organizations may have been legally responsible for your abuse; (5) you sufficiently identified your abuser(s) and your abuser's connection to Scouting; (6) you provided the approximate date of your abuse (or your age at the time of abuse): and (7) you provided the location of the abuse. Once the Trust determined that your claim was "allowable," the Trust turned to calculating the "Proposed Allowed Claim Amount.. There are many aggravating factors listed in the TDP. In your case, ten of them applied: extended duration of the abuse; extended frequency of the abuse; you were exploited for child pornography; multiple abusers involved in sexual misconduct; adverse impacts to your mental health; adverse impacts to your physical health; adverse impacts to your interpersonal relationships; adverse impacts to your vocational capacity; adverse impacts to your academic capacity; and impacts resulting in your legal difficulties." Wee. I have been validated. More balloons, streamers, cupcakes, pink punch and party favors? The single Mitigating Factor applied was the dreaded Statute of Limitations, though they used the most favorable option since I was abused in three states. Still, per a very helpful and knowledgeable Claim Administrations Advisor, it's doubtful an attorney actual read and researched the substance of my argument for tolling of the appropriately abbreviated, SoL based on fraudulent concealment. That means I stay in the game and prepare my Request for Reconsideration of the tolling argument. For me, it's worth another at bat on this key factor in the final award determination. Thus concludes this grunt's update from the war zone. I have not yet found a DMZ. Please hold hope and carry on all of you survivor claimants, my friends and fellows, still out here with me. Per usual, forgive my speed typos.

I don't understand. It appears your troop is a lifeboat for this scout and scouts like him. Our troop averaged one scout transfer per month because of our program reputation. Many were friends of scouts in our troop. Council often referred out-of-state transfers to us . These scouts lack of skills can be challenging, but I always found them and their parents enthusiastic and great supporters for our program. I'm so thankful for your service. Barry

An Eagle in my neck of the woods, when asked what he learned from doing his project, responded, "Paperwork will suck the joy out of anything you love." As for PowerPoint Presentations, not for the project approval or for the EBOR, but other things related to the project could require them. One Eagle I had went to a foundation for a grant to do his project. They wanted him to do a PPT to the board in order to get approval for it. He submitted the PPT to the foundation director, and presented his case for his project. He got the funding. THAT IS AN UNDERSTATEMENT!!!!!!! (emphasis, not shouting at you) My tech savy son, who is now a computer science major, told me the program completely whacked when it come to photos. Whenever we talk to Life Scouts about project workbooks, we tell them do not worry about the photos in the workbook, add them to the end of it as individual photos.

Always refer to the G2A ... Guide To Advancement. In my view ... The Eagle Project is about service and leadership in doing that service. The workbook is well laid out and explicitly describes the steps. The project is enough in and of itself. Adding troop unique expectations makes the Eagle Project more about jumping hoops and than giving service. IMHO, we teach bad lessons when we make advancement about jumping hoops. Not required and can't be required ... but troops still do it. Is it harmful? Mostly no. Is this a hill to die on either direction? No. Is it a good idea? No, but I flip flop and can see both sides. Does it help the scout? Maybe a few scouts, but mostly no. The scout MUST fill out the Eagle Project Workbook in detail. That is the scout's commitment. A PowerPoint is extra and just decorative. Committees ... chair or designee(s) ... must review the workbook. That is what is being signed and is effectively a contract. A PowerPoint presentation is NOT what is being signed off. I've had scouts show me their PowerPoint presentation required by their troop. I sat nicely and listened. ... THEN, we went section by section thru the workbook write-up because that is the commitment. Bad ... Could be the unrequired extra hoop to jump thru that causes a scout to give up on Eagle. Good ... Might give some scouts presentation practice that helps scouts later in the process ... IMHO this is a big stretch. Why do troops do it? Biggest reason I've seen is the worst because it does not match Guide To Advancement. Troops justify it as it gives scouts experience presenting to groups and talking in front of groups. IMHO, that's what the Communications MB is about. That's what the rest of the scouting program is about. Eagle project is about service and leading that service. IMHO, it smells more of committee self-importance. If a troop wants to do it, it's not a hill to die on. Smile nicely. Listen. Don't promote the practice and point out the scout requirements are in the Eagle project workbook and the Guide To Advancement. ... Sorry if I am long winded. This was a hot button topic for me as I've been involved in many Eagle project proposal reviews.

So if a scout can take off and work on MBs at a camporee, what does the rest of his or her patrol do without that scout? So much for patrol method. There's sort of a win all you can mindset but my guess is that not understanding the benefits of the patrol method is a bigger problem. I heard an interview with someone that studies youth problems with changing technology. It was like they were begging for something just like the patrol method. The idea of a gang of kids, where the older ones look out for the younger ones and teach them the rules of society started fading with the advent of computers as entertainment. Lack of social skills, depression, etc. Smart phones made it that much worse. Their biggest fear is when parents can buy AI "friends" for their children. They'll never have to talk to real people! To be honest, I think there's another problem. I'm a grandparent with 3 grandkids aged 2 and under. Of all the people I knew that were parents while my kids were living at home, most don't have grandkids. Few of their children want children. Maybe they're too busy earning "MBs"? I admit that it's expensive and difficult to find the time, but, when it comes to a high adventure trip, having kids is really one of the best. Both my kids are in the not enough sleep phase but they love their kids. It's wonderful for me to watch. Both of my kids live in town. It's been an insane winter of colds and my wife and I are always on call. I've been sick more this winter than I can remember. I also love that I can spend this time with my family. I wouldn't call it quality time but some day, after I'm gone, I hope my grandkids have fond memories of playing with me. Bottom line: MBs are easy, life is not. Life is an adventure, MBs are not. MBs are worn on your sleeve, good memories are worn on your soul.

I taught at 1 MBU, and was never asked back. I told the folks running it, it would be a partial UNLESS the Scout did work before hand to do the stuff I was unable to do at the event. out of about 50- 60 people in 2 sessions, 1 person did the work before coming to the MBU. Another Scout contacted me after the event with the work. No one else contacted me about the badge. And the folks running it never asked me again. Same event, but a friend's encounter. Crime Prevention MB had a disruptive Scout. Was sent out after a few problems. At the end of the day, complains he never got Crime Prevention MB that he "Paid for." Thankfully my district knows not to convert a camporee into a MBU. They did that 1 year. Attendance was poor, and only 2 units liked it.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. —Martin Niemöller

I too used to, stress USED TO, do that. But was informed that unless the requirement specifically states you cannot use an activity for more than one requirement, you gotta accept it. I am waiting for the duel enrolled Girl Scout/Scouting America Scout to do one project for both their Gold Award and Eagle.

I had a pretty traditional Scouting experience that culminated in earning the Eagle Scout award after I had a lot of fun and finally got around to the paperwork. One of my best my friends could be described as a "Paper Eagle." He made it through the program with very little camping and had everything wrapped up by high school so he could focus more on academics. Today, he's a professor at a prestigious university and travels the world to present his research. He is absolutely someone we'd want to represent the program. Scouting just means different things to different people and we all have to be OK with that for the BSA to survive.

Kennedy isn't hard to find. I reached out online and shared your post. His comment was "I don't know why this person seems to have a vendetta against me. I hope he finds peace. We knew we wouldn't make everyone happy but I do appreciate the people who have kept in touch with all the TCC members and showed their appreciation. I haven't commented on the settlement publicly in a very long time and like others, I'm waiting for a decision on the appeal. So others know, I have not received A DIME from this settlement. I've heard nothing from the Trust regarding an award. I also have NOTHING to do with the Catholic Church. My lawsuit prior to the bankruptcy was against the BSA, local council, and my abuser; NOT the Catholic Church. Anyone who cares can search the New York State cases online and see those details. I filed as John Doe but it was the first BSA lawsuit after the window opened. Frankly, if I'm the last one to see a dollar from this I'm okay with that and anyone who says differently doesn't know me and is just plain wrong." My own two cents.... I get why people feel pro and con about the settlement. So much is the product of a bankruptcy system NOT designed for the Survivors of child sexual abuse. As far as Saint Kosnoff having all the answers, I can only shake my head at the reality that the BSA put its bets on the Coalition, of which Mr. Kosnoff was an initial member before the Court expedited his removal in an agreement with the remaining Coalition leaders. The Coalition, despite representing 65% of the total claims, then failed to deliver the remaining 10% of the needsd votes. This cost all Survivors a year and who knows how many died in the interim. But maybe the Coalition firms don't care because the claims live on, and so too does the 33-40% contingency to those firms. And the capper, the Court just issued a verdict that the Coalition should receive ZERO dollars from the BSA because their work provided NO substantial contribution and was duplicative of the work already being done by the TCC and other parties. Whether you love or hate the plan, facts matter. Here's some other facts that I'm sure will piss people off. At the time that the BSA declared bankruptcy some Survivors were days away from their cases going to court, those in open States lost their individual cases and what could have been a big award, and those in "closed" States had zero path to a lawsuit being heard in court. But, the plan included a one-year period when Survivors could mobilize in their States and have the SOLs changed so they'd be in a better matrix position. That happened in some States and continues to happen, perhaps too late for this bankruptcy but now allowing suits against abusers and other entities. That's equity and not equality; but was the reality at the time of the bankruptcy. That's "business" and not justice. That's bankruptcy. I don't like it and in a perfect world there would have been no closed States and a bottomless pit of money. Neither was the case then, or now. This whole "liquidate the BSA" fantasy is just that. Survivors are UNSECURED creditors and will be left fighting over the scraps after SECURED creditors are satisfied. As well, if that happens you'd better like your attorney and they'd better be ready to get your case heard ASAP before other BIG awards wipe out the available money. Oh, you're going to sue the insurance companies? You'd better be prepared to wait 7-10 years for that settlement AND hope others haven't beaten you to the policy limits. Uh...and if your attorney has hundreds or thousands of clients, start thinking about how you'll get in line early before every other Survivor who wants to do the same. It won't happen if your case needs a ton of discovery and work or is of low "value." Lastly, if you think the insurers will sit around forever waiting to pay, guess what, if the amount of claims exceeds their assets (like was the case with Century Insurers), they'll do this....file for bankruptcy and go into "runoff", again leaving some with nothing. I'm sorry to be a downer. I just want some who think the solution is for this plan to go up in flames to understand that some scenarios might be missing a bit of reality. Feel free to rip me up. I'm not going to debate hypotheticals. I'll see you after the appellate court chimes in and we can discuss reality. PS, the court is going to deny the appeal 😉

Because you care? And maybe because it's extra-rewarding to see a scout that has faced challenges be able to accomplish the 'top achievement'? It also sounds like you know this scout a bit more than perhaps others. A scout in our Troop went from not being able to write a paragraph without the lines drifting across the page, to taking AP European History. I think it's natural for us to root for the 'underdog' and want them to reach 'the pinnacle'.

This isn't true at all. My buddy had to attend every game and practice his daughter played in league volleyball (which cost him $3200 every "Series"/"quarter"/"league period" aka she played 3 a year outside varsity volleyball for all 4 years of high school). There may be some leagues that you can dump and run; however, that is becoming the old standard much like it was the old standard in scouting. As the lawsuit sharks circle dump-and-run is going away even in league sports. I remember him calling me going "I am driving a day and a half to St. Louis right now because if I am not butt in bleachers they will bench my daughter which will threaten her varsity slot when she returns to school.". Dumping and running might have been true in the interarm, but it is going away. It's not declining due to value perception. It's declining due to lack of delivery. On paper the programs provided by Scouting America are among the top youth programs in the world; yes, the world. The problem is that execution of this program is highly variable (even from one side of the town to another), there is no quality control, and councils are too weak to do anything about it because they are too busy trying to survive instead of running the program. Scouting America just lost somewhere between 300k and 500k of it's youth membership in the past 90 days; that membership churn is not a value perception, we sold those families on the value, they where here, they saw the value, they left because we didn't deliver.

UPDATE: A helpful Scout shop volunteer on the other side of the country saw a post I'd made on a Facebook Scouting group and let me know that they'd found a medal while doing shop inventory. I got it in the mail yesterday! All hail the Laurel Highlands Council volunteers for their help. If anyone else is looking for a medal, I heard from one or two other council shops that might still have one in stock. Let me know if you need info. Thanks, everyone, for your help and ideas!

It is dying. And the majority of folks do not want to put quality control measures. They want 'High Speed, Low Drag" advancement and increasing the number of Eagle Scouts. They would rather celebrate the 13 or 14 year old with all 130+MBs than the troop that is doing trail work on the AT, or the troop running Red Cross evac stations.

There is one thing that you can do... Do not participate in the masquerade. You are only responsible for what you do, so maintain your integrity, and do not sign off anything you know you shouldn't. I have made many a Scout a little frustrated and many a parent perhaps a little angry when I refused to sign off something that I did not personally see or test. Scout: "I tied a diagonal lashing on the camping trip last weekend!" Me: "Excellent, let me see it you do it again." <Scout cannot tie a diagonal lashing.> Me: "OK, let's review how to do this lashing." <demonstrates> <Scout ties diagonal lashing.> "Ok, will you sign me off on that?" Me: "Yes, I will sign you off next week when you show it to me again. Practice and read your Scout Handbook if you need any more pointers." <Next week, Scout cannot tie diagonal lashing.> <Wash, rinse, repeat.> At some point, I get push back from parents or even other leaders. Then, I pull out the Scout Handbook and reference the four steps of advancement. (which every Scout must know, as a requirement for the Scout badge.) 1. You learn. ..."you learn and practice skills that are required for advancement..." 2. You are tested. "Once you feel that you have mastered a skill, a leader tests you and passes you on the requirement." I explain that, in my world of Scouting, if a Scout cannot tie a diagonal lashing from one week to the next, then he has not mastered that skill. There are other leaders who do sign off something immediately, or upon the Scout saying he has done it, without seeing a demonstration of mastery. I am only responsible for what I do.

Why cant they do the SMC prior to the BOR? In many units I have been in, that has been the case.

IMHO, Scouting America should ask well-spoken Robert Gates, former president of the Boy Scouts of America and Secretary of Defense for Presidents Bush and Obama to respond.

One reason why Scouting America doesn't cut off Scouting at 13 or 14, and makes Venturing the next stage, (emphasis) if you look at older, pre 1989 BSA literature. The middle schoolers look up to, and learn from the highschoolers. They will usually be the ones elected into leadership roles. Traditional, aka Mixed Age Patrols, were the standard. Unless you were LDS which used aged based patrols. Patrols could actually do things on their own without adults, including camping. Older members mentored and worked with younger members. Nowadays the lack of Scouter manpower, forces troops to focus on the Troop Method, and not the Patrol Method. IMHO, Scouting America has lost its way. Instead of focusing on adventure and fun to promote individual growth, the focus is now on MBs and getting Eagle. Instead of hiring and listening to folks with outdoor experience, Scouting America is hiring "Educational Leadership" experts with no idea how Scouting is suppose to work, but a ton of theories on how to develop youth. The one I met had no outdoors experience whatsoever, no jobs outside of academia, and was appalled when I said they needed to spend time at a summer camp. Even then summer camp is turning into outdoor school. And do not get me started on aged based patrols. I was one of the guinea pigs when it was beta tested, and shocked when it became the recommendation.

The people who never read the emails are #1. #2 is the people that transfer in from "bad units" or "failed units" and then won't shut up about how we should try what their old unit did.

That's a disturbing comment. While not pleasant to think about, it is certainly possible that some of the commentators on this forum over the years probably were involved in some of these cases. It's perhaps good to remember that a tactic of the guilty is to deflect blame elsewhere and weigh comments in that light.

I'll tell you why we "isolate" ourselves... We have the strongest Troop in our District, and I daresay our Council. First and foremost, this is because of a small dedicated cadre of adults (about eight) who understand the Patrol Method, and mentor our Scouts to keep that as a focal point in our activities. We have 35 total adults registered, with 44 youth currently on the books. Of the 35 adults, again, eight pull most of the weight, about 17 dabble here and there to help out, and 10 contribute nothing, if not less Of the 44 Scouts, about 10 are extremely active in the program, about 26 dabble, and eight contribute nothing and will probably drop out. Side note: notice how those numbers follow the 20-60-20 rule? I learned that some time ago in a military leadership course... in any group, 20% of your people are Sierra Hotel (focus your time on them), 60% are average performers (encourage them and some will respond, but not all), and 20% are low performers (Help them when they ask.. Do not expend effort chasing them or trying to bring them into the 60%. If they do, great... if they don't, let them go.) Here are a few tenets of our Troop adult culture: 1. Adults will be fully trained in their positions. No exceptions. We make adults aware of the training burden and commitment expected before they sign on. 2. Don't get your training done, and you are dropped from the roster. 3. It is not about your kid. You are here for all. The best compliment you can get is, at the end of a camping trip, when your Scout hops in your car, another Scout looks at him and says "I didn't know that was your Dad (or Mom). During our events, try to act in such a way as to receive that compliment. 4. Our Troop pays for adults' food and camping fees for trips. (or at least a portion thereof, when attendance is over the adult leadership requirements) Adults pay for their own activity fees (like whitewater rafting, ziplining, etc.), and their fair share of gas and tolls for the trip. We let our adults know we appreciate their time and sacrifice. 5. We pay for all required training. For example, when you sign up to be an ASM, you must attend IOLS. You pay out of pocket at first, and when you are done, the Troop reimburses you the cost. 6. We pay half for advanced courses. For example, we have our own unit climbing program, so we sent a leader to National Camp School, Climbing section, to get certified, so we can run our own unit program. (Our program is cheaper than local council or commercial costs!!) We sent a leader to NCS for Outdoor Skills (formerly know as Scoutcraft). We sent a leader to do Shooting Sports (now known as Range and Target Activities?) Next year, we hope to send one to Aquatics. 7. A good number of our adults are trained in CPR/AED, Wilderness First Aid, Swimming and Water Rescue, Paddlecraft Safety, and YES!! Chainsaw Safety. We push leaders to get these kinds of courses as a "Force Multiplier". With these skills, we greatly enhance our capability to provide youth the program they want, when they want it. 8. We police each other. Youth Protection is fiercely enforced. Other breaches of GTSS and Scouter Code of Conduct are handled discretely, but firmly. Most infractions are due to ignorance. Ignorance can be cured... 9. Overall, adults need to know that, as @Eagle94-A1 pointed out above, unit leaders "...are the heart and soul of the program. Without volunteers, you cannot have the program..." When you treat them that way, they respond with dedication. There are more facets here, but I'll stop. We "isolate" ourselves because the District and Council live a different set of tenets. And the program they run is, well, below our skill set, to put it politely. In 2020, during the pandemic, when all Scouting shut down, our youth still wanted to do a Summer Camp. So, we made our own, and they had a blast. (And EVERYTHING was within the parameters of our State Governor's and CDC orders/guidelines.) The Scouts absolutely loved it! The only thing we did not have then was shooting sports. Since 2020, our PLC has elected to go to various council camps for Summer Camp. The ones who went in 2020 (who are now the senior Scouts) have been disappointed over the years in what they have experienced in the council-run camps. So, they asked to have another Troop-only Summer Camp this year, and it was a huge success. (By the way, in 2020, we ran the camp with 30 youth, 11 adults, at a cost of $244.01 per head; in 2025, 22 youth and 11 adults, at a cost of $303.40 per head.) [exactly in line with inflation...] We have found that we can run a better quality program, at a cheaper cost, and with much less hassle, than going to district or council events. This includes day, weekend, and weeklong programs...

There are references to patrol activities in modern documentation but it is very limited. The focus on leadership over being able to do things for oneself is what is really killing the patrol method. The original purpose state of which BSA is chartered by congress provides no mention of "leadership" training. The program is so overfocused on leadership training, positions of responsibility, and the eagle project that any notion of self-reliance is gone; scoutcraft is the next thing "leadership" will kill. The purpose statement of the BSA from the national charter: The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

Why? If your Council is anything like mine, these Council weekend camporees and events are adult planned and adult lead, not Scout planned or Scout lead. Taking a smaller, younger unit to one a year to spark them to suck up some knowledge might be good, but otherwise, I'd rather have them off learning by doing. Making mistakes is a part of learning in my book. It is long and complicated history to get all into Scout camps and long-term resident camp structures, but for me one has to first look at the program itself and how it morphed over time. The earliest days of Scouting were small and fairly widely distributed on units that were formed prior to 1910 and in that first decade 1910-1919. Mostly rural, and camping meant hiking across town to a patch of woods rather than trekking off to some 500 acre camp. BSA growth from 1920 to post-WWII was predominantly in urban areas, and that began the rush for councils to acquire property for these units to have spaces of their own to build out and structure for solely Scouting purposes. Not all of these properties were huge tracts, some were just several acres. Residence camp ("summer camp") for many was multiple weeks, and didn't involve brining in adults to lead- the Scouts/units themselves generally lead the program. Our legacy council was split to three districts, and camp, up until the early 50's, was two weeks per district. The SE was the camp director and in charge of logistics (how to get Scouts and food to camp), and there was one other adult that was "staff"- that was the program director and worked with the with units to carry out their planning of daily activities. The camp property the council had in those years had no dining hall, no showerhouse, etc. There were only three structures on the property when it was sold in the early 1950s and they acquired a new, larger property. Beginning in the 1970s, as membership had peaked and began to drop in many areas, "excess" properties began to be sold off or sometimes transferred to state/municipal entities. For New England as a whole, from about the mid 1990s to present, about two dozen properties have been sold or transferred (many in the later category will still allow some limited weekend usage by Scouting units). Some of those were several-hundred acre type properties, some were hold-over small properties (often with little to no developed structures or water/electricity supply) from decades past. From the mid 1970s to the mid 1990s, several dozen properties were dispatched, often as part of paying down debts to stave off inevitable council mergers. Our youth several years ago tried to get SPLs from other district units together to plan a fall camporee, as our troop stopped going for a few years because it was all adult lead. The District Chair and the District Activities Coordinator were all onboard, until suddenly after a few meetings they weren't. The weekend went off fully adult planned and lead. When we inquired why this had changed, the response was that the "at large" District members (these are adults that are not registered to units, and not in a District Key 3 position, but are still registered to BSA) felt that they were being "left with nothing to do". Our unit had nothing to do with Council/District, aside from Eagle Boards, for the next four years. We couldn't understand how adults that were supposedly sticking around in a front of "supporting Scouting" took over youth running an event, and that seemed appropriate to everyone in a position of authority. I certainly don't have all the answers, and I may be completely wrong on this (even just for simple basic "health and safety" concerns we have to face today), but I am fine with the organization being at the size of youth membership that it is today, if only we could go back to that simpler time when a Council was only a small cluster of towns and had one employee, and camping and program in general wasn't big production. If we could process paperwork with nothing more than typewriters and the USPS back then, technology today should certainly make it feasible to scale appropriately without over-the-top bloat.

Sounds like where we want to be as a program here in the states.

Saw this earlier this morning! All Merit Badges A-Z | Boy Scouts of America

My wife and I were talking. Cancel culture is alive and well. Previous years it canceled conservatives. Now, the opposition is in power and progressives are being canceled. Soon everyone will be canceled. Failure To Stay Neutral ... IMHO, much of this is BSA's fault. BSA has repeatedly burnt goodwill by picking sides social debates. Orientation. Membership. DEI. Worse, BSA has been on both sides. In late 1990s and early 2000s, BSA alienated progressives with Dale v BSA. Then in 2010s to now, it has been with membership and DEI changes. BSA should have been staying neutral. "We leave that to our charter partners ... as an organization, BSA teaches universal values such as Trustworthy, Loyal, ... and encourages outdoor adventures.". Perhaps I'm naive. It feels like there is a dance to be done where BSA could have endorsed universal values without taking stances on the storm of social change.

This is not correct. Once money is donated to a unit is technically property of the unit. There are a lot of IRS rules that dance around scout accounts and if you give money back to the parent, even as a sub account/scout account line item in this nature you risk your charter organizations non-profit status due to the personal inurement regulations of the IRS.

“Boy Scouts lets him be a kid.” At his pack's annual Blue and Gold Banquet, nine-year-old Cameron Echols received a wooden axe for his bravery in fighting his cancer. The axe had inscriptions ‘A Scout is Brave’ with Cameron’s name and the scripture Joshua 1:9 — “Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God is with you.” "Cameron was diagnosed with a brain tumor last year, a myeloblastoma, near his cerebellum in his brain that was blocking fluid from going to the rest of his body. A surgery was performed that removed most of the tumor, but to get the rest they used radiation that he went through up until last December. Cameron is still going through chemotherapy and will continue that up until this fall with the hope he is done sometime in September or October. In the meantime, scouting has given the young boy a true outlet to feel like a normal kid for a bit and get away from everything he is enduring." More at source (text with audio): https://www.clantonadvertiser.com/2025/03/26/echols-fighting-cancer-with-family-scouts-support-behind-him/

@Eagle94-A1 is right. For advancement, read BSA/SA Guide To Advancement. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf Section 4.2.3.6 Fulfilling More Than One Requirement With a Single Activity "At times it may be appropriate for a Scout to apply what was done to meet one requirement toward the completion of another." Your situation is also explicitly answered. "Some requirements may have the appearance of aligning, but upon further examination differ. These seemingly similar requirements usually have nuances intended to create quite different experiences. The Communication and Citizenship in the Community merit badges are a good example. Each requires the Scout to attend a public meeting, but that is where the similarity ends. For Communication, the Scout is asked to practice active listening skills during the meeting and present an objective report that includes all points of view. For Citizenship in the Community, the Scout is asked to examine differences in opinions and then to defend one side. The Scout may attend the same public meeting, but to pass the requirements for both merit badges the Scout must actively listen and prepare a report, and also examine differences in opinion and defend one side."

@skeptic, with all due respect, Truth and Knowledge are not personal opinions. "Referring youth back to family" makes a lot of sense when it comes to religion, but not this fiasco. If the scout's parents are getting their news from X/TikTok/QAnon or any of a number of other worthless information sources then all you're doing is keeping the scouts confused. What makes for an informed opinion? A bit of skepticism is certainly good. So is humility. I'd say play the devil's advocate on any issue they're interested in and show them how to come to their own answers. The bigger problem I see is that fear is freezing people from doing the right thing. They're afraid they're the only one that isn't so sure, so to be safe they're just going to go along. That's the problem. Democracy doesn't work when a lot of people are afraid to speak their mind. Your job is to teach them about truth and knowledge as well as bravery, humility, and kindness. Unfortunately this isn't just scouts. The best example is that Congress is frozen. Half of them think they can't do anything because they don't have the votes and the other half think they can't do anything because they're afraid they'll be voted out. I suspect the truth is that there are a fair number of people that voted for this administration but didn't vote for what's going on. Those people are the ones that hold all the power, if only they'd find the confidence to talk about their concerns. If only Congress would talk to them then, who knows, Congress might become a third co-equal branch of the government. Novel idea, no? For all the others, a bunch are getting what they voted for and I have no sympathy for what's happening to them. For those that didn't vote for this administration it's time to play the cards that were dealt. You say you don't remember a time when things were this "muddled and frozen by blind opinion?" Sure you do. You grew up in one such period. Civil rights. Vietnam. A lot of people were really sure about things until they started asking questions. Even then, the complexity of what was going on was much more than people realized. How many decades did it take to quit blaming vets? Anyone that thinks history is simple is not paying attention. I think we shouldn't whitewash our history. Just like scouts growing from making mistakes and learning from them so does society.

That’s the propaganda being spouted by Doug Kennedy and the cabal of lawyers who stand to make hundreds of millions if it is upheld while their clients get bupkis. Kennedy has already cashed in by settling his Catholic Church part of the case for millions. The delay in finalizing the plan was delaying his real payday. Kosnoff’s vision is based on a couple of things One is the liquidation of BSA’s assets in a Ch 7 or liquidating Ch 11 after the plan is overturned. The ample insurance policies survive BSA’s demise and are the most valuable assets of BSA and the locals and sponsors. Expect those entities to start negotiating either before or after their own Ch 11’s. Century/Chubb will come in and attempt to settle out individual or clusters of claims on a state by state basis. Before the total capitulation by the TCC and Pachulski Stang at the confirmation trial in 2022, it had compiled insurance policy discovery and expert testimony (it never presented at trial bc it sold out the claimants) that showed insurance proceeds at between 90 and 120 billion dollars. That coverage springs back to life when this plan is allowed to collapse. This 90-to 120 billion does not include the thousands of other liability insurance policies owned by the multitude of charter organizations most of whom received releases and contributed not a dime to the settlement. These untapped unknown policies were never pursued by the TCC and PS. Total professional malpractice if not outright fraud. As for these massive statute of limitations percentage reductions, some as much as 90%, the survivors will be back in control and not subject to the arbitrary whims of Houser. This is where getting help from state legislatures will come in to play. Several states have passed special window statutes tailored only to scout survivor residents of their own states …OH, AR, IN to name a few. Others will do the same because it’s an easy sell to reluctant legislators—a narrow window bill (first done in Michigan in the Larry Nasser US Gymnastics case several years ago) won’t impact any other entities e.g. schools, churches, local governments, other private organizations etc, but only scout insurers. It represents millions of dollars of revenue to a small subset of their residents who pay taxes, make purchases, and thereby help local businesses. It’s not a difficult sell. Local scout councils free from the yoke of a defunct BSA can reorganize and BSA National with all of its wasteful expensive, nepotistic bureaucracy will be vanquished to the trash heap. Scouting will have a new birth of freedom, free to go back to its roots with freedom to innovate and adapt to local conditions and sensibilities. What works in CA may not in AL or FL. etc. I expect scouting will evolve into a federation of independent scout organizations - which will be healthier for the movement than what exists now or in the past. Finally, I personally hope to see the 1/2 billion dollars in legal fees approved by Judge Silverstein and wasted on these bankruptcy law firms clawed back into a pot for the claimants via a class action malpractice lawsuit on behalf of all the claimants This is how the case should have been approached at the outset. BSA could not survive if survivors did not get screwed . There could only be one winner in this showdown. Conversely, survivors would never get meaningful justice and accountability, if BSA was allowed to survive. Only Kosnoff understood this fundamental truth.

What if we leave the Youth program to the Youth?