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OK... a pet peeve... yelling "Signs Up!"

One of the surest signs of membership decline is the lack of Scouters coming to this forum to debate adult square knot insignia. I swear that used to be every other thread around here pre-COVID. 😛

Yesterday my attorneys contacted me and informed me that my claim amount had been determined. After years of anxiety about what the outcome (I truly believed I deserved the maximum amount) my claim came in at 2.67 million. Yes, I know I will most like only get a fraction of that amount but the fact that my pain and suffering was valued at that amount is the most important aspect. In all honesty I cried, just like after 50 years of telling not one soul I finally opened up about what had happened to me. With the appeals and the court cases that may come up I know that this is not over yet, but I finally feel like I have crossed third base, and I am on my way to home plate. Over the past 22 hours I have thought quite a bit about how I have survived these past 6 years and the people that have given me moral support. I have reached out to those folks and thanked them. I now want to reach out to my survivor community on this forum and say thank you, without all of you I do not know how I would have made it. Thank you to Scouter Forum for giving me a place to vent my frustrations, state my opinions and allow me to interact with other survivors and not kicking me off the site. Thank you, moderators, for your patience. I am sure some of my posts made some of you cringe. I want to thank @ThenNow for always having my backside no matter how outrageous some of my posts were. Our DM's to each other always made me feel like I had a brother standing next to me. I want to thank the TCC (I am sure there are members here on Scouter Forum). I know that all of you took on an almost impossible thankless task that was never going to please everyone. One last thing (at least for now) @skeptic please no sad or confused faces. Maybe this will be the one post that you can give a green up arrow to that I have written. Thank you all, John

Unpopular opinion I'm sure, but: Eagle Scouts who can't congratulate a new Eagle without making it about themselves and mentioning that they are an Eagle (usually along with the year they earned it as well). Why not just a "Congrats, huge achievement, best of luck in your future endeavors."

Professional scouters that have clearly set goals that focus on raising money (for what nobody knows) rather than focusing on actually growing the program A National Organization that continues to believe the infrastructure needs to be reflective of the 70's (almost 5 million) rather than today (less than 1 million). Get rid of councils and overhead.

Had a good conversation with our COR last nite. Helps he is also a former SM and knows all the challenges I face in that role. We are on the verge of folding. He know it, our adults know it, and the Scouts may know it. We need one more Scout in order to recharter, and we are going full throttle on recruiting. Our DE says they can help us get into the schools. I hope that is true and he follows through, but the council's record on that is poor. But as Gandalf the White said, " There is always hope, a fool's hope." We will be doing our annual fundraiser as if we will be rechartering. Goal is to raise enough money to pay national and council fees, and summer camp. We will continue Scouting on. Back up plan is if the troop does not recharter, pay for everyone's, both adults and youth, registration and council fees, pay for summer camp, and save the rest to restart the troop at a later date. I am sticking around as SM until December 2026. I have idea on someone to replace me, but want to get them up to speed.

Tomorrow I head off on my first Scout week trip since the summer I turned 19. Back then, the troop consisted of my Scoutmaster who had been in the troop since 1933, the ASM who had been in since around 1960, my friend and fellow 18 y/o ASM, me, and three kids we recruited out of the 5th grade class of our old school at the beginning of the school year. We had a great time at our old camp - water skiing, motorboating, pioneering, a float trip, an overnight canoe trip, and various evening activities. I haven't been to a council camp/merit badge factory since the summer before I quit Scouting in 6th grade. We'll see how this goes. It's my son's first one. I intend to keep my distance from him as much as possible. He'll need to be his own person at the end of July when he attends another camp.

An April evening... Troop 544 was having their weekly meeting at their Scout Hut when law enforcement arrived to report a missing autistic child in the area. The scouts quickly organized into search patrols led by older members and an assistant scoutmaster. As temperatures dropped and daylight faded, the group found the child hiding in bushes and stayed with him to offer comfort until first responders arrived. Scout Salute, More at source including photos and map. https://www.nwfdailynews.com/story/news/local/2025/05/21/scout-troop-honored-by-okaloosa-commission-for-helping-to-find-child/83773869007/

One of the things that has I have often felt as a leader is that the concept of breadth in merit badge options should be reinstated. IN the fifties and sixties we had the required badges of the time, but also a "selection" from a number of categories which broadened the picture. It was similar to the once required college breadth for graduation that included classes from the less common areas, including art and music. That, in my opinion, leads to a bit more depth of knowledge and the world in general. What might be the thoughts on this being reinstated in a more modern manner?

Over the decades I have heard many youth exclaim "i'm gonna kill you", and never was it an actual death threat. Heck my little sister would say it to me when I teased her. It was/is a common expression kids use. It might not be appropriate, but calling it a death threat is over the top.

When I first took over in January of 2025 I saw myself staying as Scoutmaster for at least a year or two after my youngest aged out. He turned 18 this week, and I'm stepping down. I'll be taking on the role of Eagle coach instead. The biggest challenge was time, made worse by the lack of parent involvement in the actual running of the Troop. Of those who were willing to volunteer time, I'd say about 80% of them only wanted to be in an administrative type position - committee member, advancement chair, service chair, etc. Of those who were ASM's, one never came camping even on the trip they were in charge of organizing, and one needed to be hand-held through everything to the point it was faster and easier for me to do it myself. (Crazily, this parent is an Eagle, yet can't cook a meal or put up a tent that isn't their own.) Anywho... it's been great, and awful, and everything in between. God bless those of you who are in this role. I figured I'd share the message I sent to our Troop after the latest political issues, because I think it's a message that's needed no matter what we're facing, but didn't want to clutter the other thread. Although I have just one more week as your Scoutmaster, I wanted to issue a statement of support for ALL our scouts, our friends, and our families. I wholeheartedly believe in the overarching mission of Scouting, which is "to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." That doesn't change how we are meant to treat others, no matter what is said by outside individuals or administrations. Trustworthy and Loyal means a scout can be relied upon to act with understanding, Kindness and Courtesy in their interactions with others. Scouts should strive to be non-discriminatory and Helpful to everyone around them. In short, the same principles that Baden-Powell espoused when forming this organization still stand today. Do your best to continue to be the amazing young people that you are.

Question: Don't all three pictures show them not paying to go see the game? (stealing) While everyone paid for their seats.

We've had similar experiences with various sports coaches and then specifically baseball coaches when the more sports oriented son settled into that. Almost all of them were good and many, especially in baseball, were supportive of scouting. I think one big difference I've seen in youth athletics overall is that bad coaches, unlike bad adult scout volunteers, generally don't linger. The volunteer shortage in scouting means the organization seems to hang on to almost any warm body, no matter how problematic. The existence of umpires and league arbiters also mean that the kinds of rule and vague policy questions that plague scouting, and are the source of numerous social media sites and posts, are resolved more efficiently in sports. As for adult scouters, one possible reason is I think scouting experiences are much more fragmented and individual. One adult might have been in a unit that camped all the time; another adult might have been in a unit that was more advancement driven; another in a unit that was very integrated with a religion; yet another with one that was influenced by military connections and philosophies. When they re-experience it with their kids, it can seem completely different and offputting and definitely more complicated. Sports, on the other hand, can seem almost universally familiar. There have been rule and equipment changes but pretty much youth basketball, football, baseball, soccer players are playing the same game their parents did no matter what part of the country they were from. It's easier to re-onboard with and more understandable. They don't need as much training to be functional.

Your idea isn't new; the BSA has made these kinds of promises since the creation of the program. I do agree that at this age, cost isn't as much of an issue as the cub program, but a results-based program is very subjective. And most of the time the adults go the easy route of Eagle for their results-based program. However, youth at this age aren't advancement-driven. I found that most Eagle-driven programs lose 70% of their scouts by age 15 because advancement gets boring. Adventure-driven programs thrive because they are fun in the outdoors, and because independence in the patrol method drives more maturity in their growth. Go look at units where scouts age out, and you will find they are more scout-run with adventure. Also, adventure-driven programs typically have a high number of Eagles because the scouts are in the program a long time and earn the Eagle requirements by simply participating. Barry

It is dying. And the majority of folks do not want to put quality control measures. They want 'High Speed, Low Drag" advancement and increasing the number of Eagle Scouts. They would rather celebrate the 13 or 14 year old with all 130+MBs than the troop that is doing trail work on the AT, or the troop running Red Cross evac stations.

Having worked in various joint commands in plans (J5), exercise (J7), and operations shops (J3), I have to tell you these things are FAR from free. Military exercises, deployments, employments, redeployment, and reconstitution (after the fact) are quite expensive, in fact. Literally hundreds of millions of your tax dollars are spent on these each year to maintain unit readiness. Difficult to stage? yes... Scarcity of opportunity? no. Quite the opposite. Military commands at all levels routinely have to cut exercises and practices from their schedules to support various "hobby horses" or "pet projects" the military is tasked to support based on political pressure. The National Jamboree is a good example of such a "pet project." Do the units supporting these get good training? Absolutely. Could the resources spent on the Jamboree be better used supporting other valid military training objectives? Absolutely. Do I support the use of military resources to enable the Jamboree? Absolutely 😜 (Sometimes the troops would rather support something at home like this, rather than flying to a third world country to practice their "wartime" skills there.)

In my opinion this is a sign of burnout in the leadership. In my opinion you want to meet every week unless a holiday falls exactly on the meeting day. What I have seen personally is that units who are looking for these excuses are suffering burnout in the leadership. The two week gap screams to me that the leadership is burned out and that their scouts are probably in a situation where they don't need the meetings to advance so it's just a burden meeting to those families.

I cringed when I read the term "Family Troop". My initial reaction was, "there's the final nail in the coffin of the Patrol Method".

Adults wearing Eagle rank patches. Not the square knot, the oval. And I'd personally let it slide for an 18 or 19-year-old, but I'm seeing too many 50-something men wearing an oval Eagle rank patch.

Seeing advancement become the sole purpose of scouting, then watching it get watered down to one and done and finally watching people in scouts wonder why parents don't put their kids in scouts anymore.

There's two things here, maybe related, maybe not. As an outsider with few years dealing with BSA (not involved with the settlement at all) I see things more from a corporate and legal lens. I agree with the assessment that doing the settlement fund piecemeal (going after councils, CO's, etc ... ) would have created a vast array of have and have nots. So many guilty parties (councils, units, charter orgs, perps) no longer exist, which would have prevented victims from seeking any restitution. I still struggle with these funded vs hypothesized fund numbers. What I know of nationals resources and debt and the councils local to me is that there really isn't much money out there, especially at the councils whom are mostly operating hand-to-mouth. To the discussion of Scouting America being around in the future; I have no doubt that Scouting America will be here in 100 years. I do think Scouting America will look a lot different, a lot more like how I understand scouting was 100 years ago. I think national is going to have to divest itself of a lot of physical property in order to get out of debt; maybe only Philmont surviving. I think the number of councils is going to shrink down to less than 100 (I think this will happen in the next 10 years). I think the number of council owned properties (camps) is probably going to shrink down to around 50 and start to get run more by professional adult camp staff and less by summer volunteers on a 4 season operational plan (the days of 7-9 weeks of summer camp run by barely paid OA seeking volunteers is coming to an end).

In 1989 when aged based patrols became the recommendation instead of Traditional, mixed aged patrols, that was the beginning of fall of the Patrol Method. In 2012, when they no longer allowed patrols to camp on their own without adult supervision, that furthered the fall. In 2018 when they no longer allowed patrols to have any day activities, i.e. patrol meetings, hikes, camp shopping etc, unless 2 registered adults over the age of 21, that nailed the coffin shut IMHO.

Going from memory here, so bear with me. One of the reasons for better quality control is that there are a lot fewer professionals, so there is no pressure to increase membership numbers. As a result volunteers are empowered more to do things. If a group of volunteers want to clean up camp to prepare for an event, they contact the camp warden (ranger) and Bob's your uncle, you can do it. I know of councils where you have to go through the council office and SE in order to have a work day, and they may even deny it! Another thing is that their standards when I was there had not changed. "One and Done" was not a thing. Emphasis on advancement, and Queen's Scout was not existent, compared to the pressure in the US. I have had folks tell me HA is a was a of time because there is little to no advancement involved. Instead their focus was on skills and adventure. Finally, they held their Scouts to higher expectations/standards. It was not uncommon for their Scouts and Ventures to go on a week long expedition without any adult supervision as part of the DoE Award program. Even today they do "Remote Supervision" as defined as: "Remote [Supervision] ‑ Where the Supervisor remains out of sight and hearing of the team and allows them to get on with the expedition without any intervention ‑ The Supervisor will have a good idea of roughly where the team are and how they are progressing ‑ This is the norm for the majority of practice expeditions and all qualifying expeditions. It allows the Supervisor to: ◦ Periodically observe the team without intervening ◦ Allow the team to make mistakes and to recover from them without outside intervention ◦ Support the team by remaining remote yet in the expedition area and able to intervene if absolutely necessary or if requested."

Here's a slight modification to @Eagle1993's comment about ditching the lions and tigers. Cubscouts was originally meant to be pre scouts, not it's own thing. The question is what would a cub program look like if the goal were to get every scout to bridge over? Just my guess but a 3 year program that was fair weather camping would be a start. Very little else. If the goal is to camp or play outdoors from May to September then it's pretty easy. Tie it to the troop so those kids see the scouts doing their thing. The UK has "groups" where each group has all age ranges covered. So make a group where, up front, the expectation is to prepare cubs and parents to be camping with the troop. Parents need to learn how to camp, how to have fun singing silly songs at camp fires, how to cook in the outdoors. Yes, the scouts need to learn this as well but that's obvious. Those 3 years are to teach the parents what scouting is about while they have fun with their kids. The pinewood derby is not important. The pins are not important. The badges and patches are not important. Learning how to have fun with your kids in the outdoors is important. That would be much easier on the parents than putting on a weekly program for kids that aren't mature, can't sit still and really need to burn a lot of energy. Final comment is that cubscouts is where cubs camp with their parents. Scouts is where they don't. Sure, slight modification would be a major change. I'm not sure what would happen with single parents and siblings and all that. Those are the details where the devil lies. My kids have their own now, so I'm probably the wrong person to ask anyway.

Thank you for the well wishes. Truly. Though I'm still barefooted on the floor attempting to navigate the final stanzas of this treacherous waltz with Kaa (through shards of my life and the lives of others), I'll take any encouragement offered. So, 1908 days after the Chapter 11 filing and 1755 days after submitting my Proof of Claim, I received my Allowed Abuse Claim letter. Who's counting, right? Living through many forms of abuse starting at the age of 3, spent many years drowning in self-medicating techniques through diverse (and sometimes creative) maladaptive behaviors. Along the path I've had my share of so-called, 'out of body experiences.' I have officially added reading that letter to the list. Whatever that means to you and however you envision it, that was surreal. I meandered around for hours then days, experiencing more manic, sleepless nights thinking, writing and, again, trying to avoid feeling it all yet again. The non-monetary narrative section placed me, appropriately, in the Tier One, penetration, category. Is that a "YAY!" moment? I suppose one celebrates such a thing, as twisted and morbid as that it surely is. The letter, signed by Randi Roth, the Claims Administrator, said in pertinent part: "Allowable" Claim. The Trust assesses seven basic eligibility criteria to determine whether your claim is "allowable." They include: (1) your submission was timely; (2) there was no previous resolution of your claim in litigation or another process; (3) you stated the acts of abuse that were suffered; (4) you established your connection to Scouting and showed that BSA, a local council, or certain Chartered Organizations may have been legally responsible for your abuse; (5) you sufficiently identified your abuser(s) and your abuser's connection to Scouting; (6) you provided the approximate date of your abuse (or your age at the time of abuse): and (7) you provided the location of the abuse. Once the Trust determined that your claim was "allowable," the Trust turned to calculating the "Proposed Allowed Claim Amount.. There are many aggravating factors listed in the TDP. In your case, ten of them applied: extended duration of the abuse; extended frequency of the abuse; you were exploited for child pornography; multiple abusers involved in sexual misconduct; adverse impacts to your mental health; adverse impacts to your physical health; adverse impacts to your interpersonal relationships; adverse impacts to your vocational capacity; adverse impacts to your academic capacity; and impacts resulting in your legal difficulties." Wee. I have been validated. More balloons, streamers, cupcakes, pink punch and party favors? The single Mitigating Factor applied was the dreaded Statute of Limitations, though they used the most favorable option since I was abused in three states. Still, per a very helpful and knowledgeable Claim Administrations Advisor, it's doubtful an attorney actual read and researched the substance of my argument for tolling of the appropriately abbreviated, SoL based on fraudulent concealment. That means I stay in the game and prepare my Request for Reconsideration of the tolling argument. For me, it's worth another at bat on this key factor in the final award determination. Thus concludes this grunt's update from the war zone. I have not yet found a DMZ. Please hold hope and carry on all of you survivor claimants, my friends and fellows, still out here with me. Per usual, forgive my speed typos.

I don't understand. It appears your troop is a lifeboat for this scout and scouts like him. Our troop averaged one scout transfer per month because of our program reputation. Many were friends of scouts in our troop. Council often referred out-of-state transfers to us . These scouts lack of skills can be challenging, but I always found them and their parents enthusiastic and great supporters for our program. I'm so thankful for your service. Barry

An Eagle in my neck of the woods, when asked what he learned from doing his project, responded, "Paperwork will suck the joy out of anything you love." As for PowerPoint Presentations, not for the project approval or for the EBOR, but other things related to the project could require them. One Eagle I had went to a foundation for a grant to do his project. They wanted him to do a PPT to the board in order to get approval for it. He submitted the PPT to the foundation director, and presented his case for his project. He got the funding. THAT IS AN UNDERSTATEMENT!!!!!!! (emphasis, not shouting at you) My tech savy son, who is now a computer science major, told me the program completely whacked when it come to photos. Whenever we talk to Life Scouts about project workbooks, we tell them do not worry about the photos in the workbook, add them to the end of it as individual photos.

Always refer to the G2A ... Guide To Advancement. In my view ... The Eagle Project is about service and leadership in doing that service. The workbook is well laid out and explicitly describes the steps. The project is enough in and of itself. Adding troop unique expectations makes the Eagle Project more about jumping hoops and than giving service. IMHO, we teach bad lessons when we make advancement about jumping hoops. Not required and can't be required ... but troops still do it. Is it harmful? Mostly no. Is this a hill to die on either direction? No. Is it a good idea? No, but I flip flop and can see both sides. Does it help the scout? Maybe a few scouts, but mostly no. The scout MUST fill out the Eagle Project Workbook in detail. That is the scout's commitment. A PowerPoint is extra and just decorative. Committees ... chair or designee(s) ... must review the workbook. That is what is being signed and is effectively a contract. A PowerPoint presentation is NOT what is being signed off. I've had scouts show me their PowerPoint presentation required by their troop. I sat nicely and listened. ... THEN, we went section by section thru the workbook write-up because that is the commitment. Bad ... Could be the unrequired extra hoop to jump thru that causes a scout to give up on Eagle. Good ... Might give some scouts presentation practice that helps scouts later in the process ... IMHO this is a big stretch. Why do troops do it? Biggest reason I've seen is the worst because it does not match Guide To Advancement. Troops justify it as it gives scouts experience presenting to groups and talking in front of groups. IMHO, that's what the Communications MB is about. That's what the rest of the scouting program is about. Eagle project is about service and leading that service. IMHO, it smells more of committee self-importance. If a troop wants to do it, it's not a hill to die on. Smile nicely. Listen. Don't promote the practice and point out the scout requirements are in the Eagle project workbook and the Guide To Advancement. ... Sorry if I am long winded. This was a hot button topic for me as I've been involved in many Eagle project proposal reviews.

So if a scout can take off and work on MBs at a camporee, what does the rest of his or her patrol do without that scout? So much for patrol method. There's sort of a win all you can mindset but my guess is that not understanding the benefits of the patrol method is a bigger problem. I heard an interview with someone that studies youth problems with changing technology. It was like they were begging for something just like the patrol method. The idea of a gang of kids, where the older ones look out for the younger ones and teach them the rules of society started fading with the advent of computers as entertainment. Lack of social skills, depression, etc. Smart phones made it that much worse. Their biggest fear is when parents can buy AI "friends" for their children. They'll never have to talk to real people! To be honest, I think there's another problem. I'm a grandparent with 3 grandkids aged 2 and under. Of all the people I knew that were parents while my kids were living at home, most don't have grandkids. Few of their children want children. Maybe they're too busy earning "MBs"? I admit that it's expensive and difficult to find the time, but, when it comes to a high adventure trip, having kids is really one of the best. Both my kids are in the not enough sleep phase but they love their kids. It's wonderful for me to watch. Both of my kids live in town. It's been an insane winter of colds and my wife and I are always on call. I've been sick more this winter than I can remember. I also love that I can spend this time with my family. I wouldn't call it quality time but some day, after I'm gone, I hope my grandkids have fond memories of playing with me. Bottom line: MBs are easy, life is not. Life is an adventure, MBs are not. MBs are worn on your sleeve, good memories are worn on your soul.

I taught at 1 MBU, and was never asked back. I told the folks running it, it would be a partial UNLESS the Scout did work before hand to do the stuff I was unable to do at the event. out of about 50- 60 people in 2 sessions, 1 person did the work before coming to the MBU. Another Scout contacted me after the event with the work. No one else contacted me about the badge. And the folks running it never asked me again. Same event, but a friend's encounter. Crime Prevention MB had a disruptive Scout. Was sent out after a few problems. At the end of the day, complains he never got Crime Prevention MB that he "Paid for." Thankfully my district knows not to convert a camporee into a MBU. They did that 1 year. Attendance was poor, and only 2 units liked it.

I'd be more inclined to give the 11 yo a second chance after appropriate counseling. An adult that can't control his anger in front of the Scouts needs to be gone.

This theme has appeared often over my time here on the forum, and it almost alway comes back to reality of lives and responsibilities outside of the program. Early in my long tenure, now fiftyish, I was visiting my parents and mentioned my frustrations to my father, the man that in my youngest years worked three jobs, one full time with a long drive to and from. Anyway, he looked at me and laughed. He said something to the effect of, "nothing new". Then he asked if I thought that all my scout brothers' parents were involved as he was. He was on the committee in a number of jobs, as actually was my mother for the time. She had been a denmother for my brother. He told me a couple of stories that matched mine like a Polaroid almost. Then he told me that if it was important to someone, they somehow would work at it and often find the time. But also he told me that life could wear you down, and that Scouting involvement also could, and likely would.

That's simply untrue. In Hegseth's own words:

Wow, go out of town for a couple days and wow a lot was here to chew on. The all merit badge issue is in my opinion a matter of money. The scouts that I have personally seen get them all basically bought their way through it by having the cash to go-go-go. I don't believe a scout should have to master a skill to get a merit badge; however, at the same time I don't believe some of these scouts have retained any knowledge of the harder merit badges which defeats a huge part of the purpose of the merit badge process. The merit badge mills (MBU, etc ... )are less of a concern for me. They're such a mixed bag. Some scouts are coming in with pre-requisites and meeting the base standard, some are exceeding the standard, some are just being tossed a merit badge (which plainly sucks and hurts the scouts and program). I think the difficulty here is that there is a base standard, a minimum; we often get lost in the haze of debate over a scout who over achieves and people believing that should re-baseline the merit badge requirements. Merit badges are not on a bell curve, you do the standard you get the badge. I sat in at a MBU last year and I had a handful of parents and scouts lose their mind on me because they came in with literal reams of pre-work and while great, demonstrating above average achievement, it was a lot of work that was not required. I had to tell a scout and his parents that the standard was X and they did X+10. I had to tell them that the other scouts who just did exactly the requirement for the pre-requisites would get the exact same merit badge. They lost their minds, to them because little billy did more, so should everyone else. The requirements to become a MBC are horrible in every way. The standards are arbitrary and subjective. There are very few if any audits of skill going on. There are fiefdoms for certain merit badges. My personal hate is being told I was not qualified to be an MBC for a merit badge and I came back with "I have over 40 years experience and certified training in this, wtf do you mean I am not qualified to be an MBC for this?". When national rolled out the Citizenship in Society MB and all the hoops you had to jump through to be an MBC for that, where the heck are those hoops for any other MB? How can people get signed off to be an MBC without doing the 15min free online training? Too wrap this up I just had to talk a troop leader off the ledge who was going to lose his $%^& on our councils "MB Dean" when the MB Dean told the troop leader that he wasn't qualified to MBC Citizenship in the Nation; the troop leader is teacher who literally teaches a course called "Citizenship in America" at a local high school. The whole process is broken.

Putting on my Membership Chairman hat. Almost 95% of scouts in troops come from the Cubs. If the youth aren't recruited in Cubs, the troops will have to recruit from other sources. When National added additional requirements to the Tiger program in 2000 (increasing meetings to every week, an adult required for each scout), many units were unable to meet the new demands, and the Tiger numbers dropped significantly. That drop became obvious in 2005 when the troop membership suddenly dropped. If you don't get the Cubs, you don't get the crossovers. Barry

IMHO, Scouting America should ask well-spoken Robert Gates, former president of the Boy Scouts of America and Secretary of Defense for Presidents Bush and Obama to respond.

I don't get the indian lore stuff at all; with all of the headaches, people looking for a fight, politically correct paths to navigate; the whole indian lore thing is a liability with no redeeming quality.

The people who never read the emails are #1. #2 is the people that transfer in from "bad units" or "failed units" and then won't shut up about how we should try what their old unit did.

No. The entire purpose of those requirements to to better prepare the Cub, and more importantly IMHO the parents, about the differences between Cubs and Scouts. I have seen first hand multiple times what happens when Cub "earn" AOL without actually doing those parts of the AOL requirements; They quit. Worst was the one den that didn't do any of the meetings or outdoor activity/camping, yet all members got AOL and "Crossed Over" to the troop. Troop gave them the custom neckers, slides, handbook, and never saw them again after the Cross Over ceremony.

Hi everyone, This is the first time I have posted on this forum. However, I have been following this tread since the beginning of Chapter 11 announcement and although I have never posted before. I have read every post on this thread. The last 5 years have been a horrific roller coaster. My abuse took place in the mid 1980's and I never told anyone until 5 years ago. I just wanted to thank everyone for for the support. It brings comfort knowing I'm not alone in this. For those that are wondering why I did not post until now. I reported the abuse to the State Police in 2020. This lead to an indictment and arrest of my abuser. The Attorney General's office asked me not to post on social media about the case until the trial was concluded which was earlier this year. My abuser was still involved with scouting in Massachusetts and the AG's office thought it was likely he was active on this forum. I really need to vent about last weeks Slater firm debauchery. I am one of their clients. When I received the email from the firm notifying me, it was another punch to the gut. I reached out to Johnathan Schulman, whom is one of the founding partners of the firm. I had a lot of questions for him and while he said the firm was taking full responsibility, he refused to answer my questions. One of the questions I asked was, Looking Back, Do You Think You Should Have Informed Your Clients That The Trust Was Not Processing Any Of Out Claims. He would not give me an answer. He treated me like an opposing attorney not a client. I read through the Bar's Professional Code of Conduct and attorneys have an ethical obligation to communicate to their clients any critical/important information about their case, which also includes any changes to timelines for their claim/case. For 14 months, the Slater Firm intentionally withheld this from myself and the other 14,000+ of their clients. Its obvious Slater Firm violated the code of conduct. I am currently drafting a complaint to both the New York and California Bar. I am also discharging the Slater Firm. I do have an attorney representing me on the matter of discharging the Slater Firm.. .Moving forward, I'm not sure how the Slater Firm issue is going to delay processing and payment of our claims. Unfortunately this effects everyone. For those who have received awards from the Trust, a second payment distribution will likely be delayed. I doubt there will be a second distribution until the Trust has finished processing all the Slater Firms claims. And I don't know how long it will take the independent "neutrals" the Slater Firm hired to vet the claims, I asked but did not get an answer from Jonathan Schulman.

I'll tell you why we "isolate" ourselves... We have the strongest Troop in our District, and I daresay our Council. First and foremost, this is because of a small dedicated cadre of adults (about eight) who understand the Patrol Method, and mentor our Scouts to keep that as a focal point in our activities. We have 35 total adults registered, with 44 youth currently on the books. Of the 35 adults, again, eight pull most of the weight, about 17 dabble here and there to help out, and 10 contribute nothing, if not less Of the 44 Scouts, about 10 are extremely active in the program, about 26 dabble, and eight contribute nothing and will probably drop out. Side note: notice how those numbers follow the 20-60-20 rule? I learned that some time ago in a military leadership course... in any group, 20% of your people are Sierra Hotel (focus your time on them), 60% are average performers (encourage them and some will respond, but not all), and 20% are low performers (Help them when they ask.. Do not expend effort chasing them or trying to bring them into the 60%. If they do, great... if they don't, let them go.) Here are a few tenets of our Troop adult culture: 1. Adults will be fully trained in their positions. No exceptions. We make adults aware of the training burden and commitment expected before they sign on. 2. Don't get your training done, and you are dropped from the roster. 3. It is not about your kid. You are here for all. The best compliment you can get is, at the end of a camping trip, when your Scout hops in your car, another Scout looks at him and says "I didn't know that was your Dad (or Mom). During our events, try to act in such a way as to receive that compliment. 4. Our Troop pays for adults' food and camping fees for trips. (or at least a portion thereof, when attendance is over the adult leadership requirements) Adults pay for their own activity fees (like whitewater rafting, ziplining, etc.), and their fair share of gas and tolls for the trip. We let our adults know we appreciate their time and sacrifice. 5. We pay for all required training. For example, when you sign up to be an ASM, you must attend IOLS. You pay out of pocket at first, and when you are done, the Troop reimburses you the cost. 6. We pay half for advanced courses. For example, we have our own unit climbing program, so we sent a leader to National Camp School, Climbing section, to get certified, so we can run our own unit program. (Our program is cheaper than local council or commercial costs!!) We sent a leader to NCS for Outdoor Skills (formerly know as Scoutcraft). We sent a leader to do Shooting Sports (now known as Range and Target Activities?) Next year, we hope to send one to Aquatics. 7. A good number of our adults are trained in CPR/AED, Wilderness First Aid, Swimming and Water Rescue, Paddlecraft Safety, and YES!! Chainsaw Safety. We push leaders to get these kinds of courses as a "Force Multiplier". With these skills, we greatly enhance our capability to provide youth the program they want, when they want it. 8. We police each other. Youth Protection is fiercely enforced. Other breaches of GTSS and Scouter Code of Conduct are handled discretely, but firmly. Most infractions are due to ignorance. Ignorance can be cured... 9. Overall, adults need to know that, as @Eagle94-A1 pointed out above, unit leaders "...are the heart and soul of the program. Without volunteers, you cannot have the program..." When you treat them that way, they respond with dedication. There are more facets here, but I'll stop. We "isolate" ourselves because the District and Council live a different set of tenets. And the program they run is, well, below our skill set, to put it politely. In 2020, during the pandemic, when all Scouting shut down, our youth still wanted to do a Summer Camp. So, we made our own, and they had a blast. (And EVERYTHING was within the parameters of our State Governor's and CDC orders/guidelines.) The Scouts absolutely loved it! The only thing we did not have then was shooting sports. Since 2020, our PLC has elected to go to various council camps for Summer Camp. The ones who went in 2020 (who are now the senior Scouts) have been disappointed over the years in what they have experienced in the council-run camps. So, they asked to have another Troop-only Summer Camp this year, and it was a huge success. (By the way, in 2020, we ran the camp with 30 youth, 11 adults, at a cost of $244.01 per head; in 2025, 22 youth and 11 adults, at a cost of $303.40 per head.) [exactly in line with inflation...] We have found that we can run a better quality program, at a cheaper cost, and with much less hassle, than going to district or council events. This includes day, weekend, and weeklong programs...

A Scout is Trustworthy. And scouting is not easy. Teach them how to responsibly use tools. And yes they will fail but try again and again... learn by doing. Share the troop policy with parents. For example, how to fully charge phones before activity and how to find a missing scout or a phone via a phone. Back in the day, we scouts had nighttime competitions as to who could tune in the furthest AM station. We would be up all Friday night, however we soon learned the downside - dragging or missing fun Saturday activities. Wiser by Sat night, we slept and were ready for Sunday activities. Scouting is a learning experience. It is far easier to simply... but it is far better to use the Scout methods. Another $0.02.

There are references to patrol activities in modern documentation but it is very limited. The focus on leadership over being able to do things for oneself is what is really killing the patrol method. The original purpose state of which BSA is chartered by congress provides no mention of "leadership" training. The program is so overfocused on leadership training, positions of responsibility, and the eagle project that any notion of self-reliance is gone; scoutcraft is the next thing "leadership" will kill. The purpose statement of the BSA from the national charter: The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

Depends on the SM and availability of trained adult leaders. Our senior patrol still plans and execute 1 or 2 outdoor patrol activities a year. Back in my day, patrols hiked locally without adults provided their SM approved. I would say even then, councils did not recognize patrols. Council events and camps required troop registration even the patrol competition Klondike Derby required troop registration. IMHO, skilled, experienced patrols should be allowed to trek Philmont without adults. As an alternative to an Eagle service project, I favor allowing Eagle Scout candidates to plan and lead a patrol trek without adults in attendance or a "project handbook". We once trained scouts to reach a level (First Class) of outdoor competency such that they could "scout run" themselves without adults present. My $0.02,

Why? If your Council is anything like mine, these Council weekend camporees and events are adult planned and adult lead, not Scout planned or Scout lead. Taking a smaller, younger unit to one a year to spark them to suck up some knowledge might be good, but otherwise, I'd rather have them off learning by doing. Making mistakes is a part of learning in my book. It is long and complicated history to get all into Scout camps and long-term resident camp structures, but for me one has to first look at the program itself and how it morphed over time. The earliest days of Scouting were small and fairly widely distributed on units that were formed prior to 1910 and in that first decade 1910-1919. Mostly rural, and camping meant hiking across town to a patch of woods rather than trekking off to some 500 acre camp. BSA growth from 1920 to post-WWII was predominantly in urban areas, and that began the rush for councils to acquire property for these units to have spaces of their own to build out and structure for solely Scouting purposes. Not all of these properties were huge tracts, some were just several acres. Residence camp ("summer camp") for many was multiple weeks, and didn't involve brining in adults to lead- the Scouts/units themselves generally lead the program. Our legacy council was split to three districts, and camp, up until the early 50's, was two weeks per district. The SE was the camp director and in charge of logistics (how to get Scouts and food to camp), and there was one other adult that was "staff"- that was the program director and worked with the with units to carry out their planning of daily activities. The camp property the council had in those years had no dining hall, no showerhouse, etc. There were only three structures on the property when it was sold in the early 1950s and they acquired a new, larger property. Beginning in the 1970s, as membership had peaked and began to drop in many areas, "excess" properties began to be sold off or sometimes transferred to state/municipal entities. For New England as a whole, from about the mid 1990s to present, about two dozen properties have been sold or transferred (many in the later category will still allow some limited weekend usage by Scouting units). Some of those were several-hundred acre type properties, some were hold-over small properties (often with little to no developed structures or water/electricity supply) from decades past. From the mid 1970s to the mid 1990s, several dozen properties were dispatched, often as part of paying down debts to stave off inevitable council mergers. Our youth several years ago tried to get SPLs from other district units together to plan a fall camporee, as our troop stopped going for a few years because it was all adult lead. The District Chair and the District Activities Coordinator were all onboard, until suddenly after a few meetings they weren't. The weekend went off fully adult planned and lead. When we inquired why this had changed, the response was that the "at large" District members (these are adults that are not registered to units, and not in a District Key 3 position, but are still registered to BSA) felt that they were being "left with nothing to do". Our unit had nothing to do with Council/District, aside from Eagle Boards, for the next four years. We couldn't understand how adults that were supposedly sticking around in a front of "supporting Scouting" took over youth running an event, and that seemed appropriate to everyone in a position of authority. I certainly don't have all the answers, and I may be completely wrong on this (even just for simple basic "health and safety" concerns we have to face today), but I am fine with the organization being at the size of youth membership that it is today, if only we could go back to that simpler time when a Council was only a small cluster of towns and had one employee, and camping and program in general wasn't big production. If we could process paperwork with nothing more than typewriters and the USPS back then, technology today should certainly make it feasible to scale appropriately without over-the-top bloat.

I agree with Ms. Ireland’s statement that BSA is a “leadership development organization”, though IMHO it is much more. My sales pitch to parents has been Scouting is a laboratory for leadership experiments. Scouts have successes and failures. Lessons are learned, leader skills developed. However, becoming a leader is a Scout’s decision both for the Scouts who want to lead and the Scouts selecting their leader. No doubt, EagleDad’s pitch has been more successful than mine. Sure I get parental nods which are soon followed my kids needs a leadership for this rank or when is it my kid’s TURN to be SPL my kid’s PL should not be a PL… Leaderrship is not a singular approach nor skill like tying a square knot, it is dynamic. Leadership adjusts depending on the activity (the plan), group, and situation (in the field where the plan always needs tweaking or replacement with Plan B). Is leadership top down or bottom up or both? Should we select leaders by their proven ability or personal attributes? Back in the day, I was training with 7 other scouts for Philmont. Our adult advisor, an Eagle Scout and Philmont trekker, said he would observe and after 4 weekend outings select the PL and ASPL for Philmont. We were 15-16 year olds who had been PL’s or higher in our respective troops. Leadership positions were rotated during these training weekends which we planned ourselves. Some scouts were content to go through the leadership motions but a few wanted to be leaders, i.e,. they had a plan for Philmont and hence understood the need for training. After each weekend, our advisor separately debriefed each PL/ASPL. My turn included gear checks, strenuous terrain, map exercises, and simulated first aid emergencies. I was not popular. In my debriefing, my advisor said Congratulations you are MY choice for Philmont PL. I declined as I felt I did not have the support of my patrol. So if I put it to a patrol vote and you win, will you accept? Unlikely but yes. All 8 patrol members were on the ballot. Two members were cousins, three were from the same troop, and the other two were from another troop. Might as well vote for myself as no one else will. I won 8-0. A leadership laboratory! A month later Philmont would be another kind of leadership laboratory. From that Philmont lab, I would say bottom up leadership is more sustainable than top down. Leadership Method and Patrol Method. My $0.02,

IMO the workbook is awful in so many ways. Filling it out almost becomes the project itself. Adding another layer to it makes it even worse.

This seems to be part of the overall trend where Scouting is less experiential learning, less growing through group dynamics, less boy led and more, well almost school work focus. Along with MBU and not really becoming "Scouts", this is wanted by parents, who do not want to actually be involved, they just have expectations. They are expecting the new scouts to stay within their peer groups, stay in their comfort zones, get socially promoted through the ranks and be led by the leaders through monitored and "safe" activities. That whole outdoor and weekend camping interferes with sports, is scary and challenging, and boys may get dirty and be uncomfortable. Also how will the parents keep an eye on them, I mean they aren't heading out to the woods as an ASM or leader. In many cases the new crossover families want a warm and embracing Webelos III experience. The challenge is many boys, after 5th grade, find this somewhat boring. The retention rates is very low for many units due to these expectations and families assuming the Scouts program (11 - 17 years olds) will be like Cubs. One of the reasons there is not overall growth in the program. On a macro scale the promise of fun and adventure in many (though not all) cases is not being delivered. Units are getting way smaller. Average size for units at our camp 8 years ago was +/- 24 youth in camp. Last year the average was less than 17 youth. The Scouts that are in units that camp, that challenge them, that get them out of their normal comfort zone, and let the youth run the program keep those Scouts. Those units lose most to aging out, not just having kids not showing up any more. Sadly there are less and less units that are run in this manner.

As a former Camp Director, I can tell you that MB's nowadays is more about "going through the motions" than having any actually....merit. I couldn't stand to see it and also one of the reasons why I left. It isn't uncommon for scouts to leave with 8+ mb's...but like they say...just because you can doesn't mean you should. I miss the days of quality and luckily some MB's can't just be given (shooting sports, swimming, climbing, etc.), at least I hope not.

What I am seeing is that there is no goldilocks zone for todays scouts. It's either the troop is a meatgrinder and only scouts with professional proficiency are getting things signed off or the opposite where anything can get signed off. I think the answer is unit leaders (all of us) and national need to push WAY WAY more outdoors programming. Some of the program needs to shift back towards scout skills emphasis; I would personally yank some of the non scout skill eagle MB and replace them with orienteering, wilderness survival, and backpacking.