Leaderboard

We've had similar experiences with various sports coaches and then specifically baseball coaches when the more sports oriented son settled into that. Almost all of them were good and many, especially in baseball, were supportive of scouting. I think one big difference I've seen in youth athletics overall is that bad coaches, unlike bad adult scout volunteers, generally don't linger. The volunteer shortage in scouting means the organization seems to hang on to almost any warm body, no matter how problematic. The existence of umpires and league arbiters also mean that the kinds of rule and vague policy questions that plague scouting, and are the source of numerous social media sites and posts, are resolved more efficiently in sports. As for adult scouters, one possible reason is I think scouting experiences are much more fragmented and individual. One adult might have been in a unit that camped all the time; another adult might have been in a unit that was more advancement driven; another in a unit that was very integrated with a religion; yet another with one that was influenced by military connections and philosophies. When they re-experience it with their kids, it can seem completely different and offputting and definitely more complicated. Sports, on the other hand, can seem almost universally familiar. There have been rule and equipment changes but pretty much youth basketball, football, baseball, soccer players are playing the same game their parents did no matter what part of the country they were from. It's easier to re-onboard with and more understandable. They don't need as much training to be functional.

Wow, go out of town for a couple days and wow a lot was here to chew on. The all merit badge issue is in my opinion a matter of money. The scouts that I have personally seen get them all basically bought their way through it by having the cash to go-go-go. I don't believe a scout should have to master a skill to get a merit badge; however, at the same time I don't believe some of these scouts have retained any knowledge of the harder merit badges which defeats a huge part of the purpose of the merit badge process. The merit badge mills (MBU, etc ... )are less of a concern for me. They're such a mixed bag. Some scouts are coming in with pre-requisites and meeting the base standard, some are exceeding the standard, some are just being tossed a merit badge (which plainly sucks and hurts the scouts and program). I think the difficulty here is that there is a base standard, a minimum; we often get lost in the haze of debate over a scout who over achieves and people believing that should re-baseline the merit badge requirements. Merit badges are not on a bell curve, you do the standard you get the badge. I sat in at a MBU last year and I had a handful of parents and scouts lose their mind on me because they came in with literal reams of pre-work and while great, demonstrating above average achievement, it was a lot of work that was not required. I had to tell a scout and his parents that the standard was X and they did X+10. I had to tell them that the other scouts who just did exactly the requirement for the pre-requisites would get the exact same merit badge. They lost their minds, to them because little billy did more, so should everyone else. The requirements to become a MBC are horrible in every way. The standards are arbitrary and subjective. There are very few if any audits of skill going on. There are fiefdoms for certain merit badges. My personal hate is being told I was not qualified to be an MBC for a merit badge and I came back with "I have over 40 years experience and certified training in this, wtf do you mean I am not qualified to be an MBC for this?". When national rolled out the Citizenship in Society MB and all the hoops you had to jump through to be an MBC for that, where the heck are those hoops for any other MB? How can people get signed off to be an MBC without doing the 15min free online training? Too wrap this up I just had to talk a troop leader off the ledge who was going to lose his $%^& on our councils "MB Dean" when the MB Dean told the troop leader that he wasn't qualified to MBC Citizenship in the Nation; the troop leader is teacher who literally teaches a course called "Citizenship in America" at a local high school. The whole process is broken.

Not just Cubs, and it is worse. I had to talk to Scouts who cared less about Eagle because they know Eagles who honestly didn't earn it. They asked me "What's the purpose if everyone gets it." That was a difficult discussion. They got upset with folks being handed MBs without doing the work they did. Again another difficult discussion. But the one that hit me hard was OA elections. OA meant a lot to me growing up, and I remained active as an adult. Sons even helped me assemble regalia and the drum. None of my sons got interested in the OA. One because he saw folks he knew, and questioned how they got elected. Another was pumped to join, until the Call Out Ceremony, when one of his peers in his former troop, who hated camping and was a trouble maker, got called out with him. He lost all interest in the OA because, "If an honor society will let him in, it is not a big deal." Youngest was never interested because of his brothers' experiences. Which was good because the chapter would not stop to do unit elections after 3 years of asking for them. I know in some parts of the country, HS extracurriculars are also graded. I know at the HS I went to, your PE class was based on the sports you played. The practices and games in season counted as class, and the scheduled class period was mandatory study hall. Miss a practice or game, there went your grade. Band had it worse as they had to attend practices, games, competitions, and parades. Depending on the time of year, their music class was more practice, and not study hall. Ditto with missing something, because it affected your grade.

Sorry for the disjointedness. dealing with issues. Training is horrible, and adults do not know vital skills. How can you expect a good program if you cannot do the basics? Many units focus on advancement, a left over from Cub Scouts IMHO. And part of that is WDLs have not been getting the training they need on transitioning from Cubs to Scouts. And they keep on doing what they have been trained. Additionally advancement standards have indeed dropped, despite what folks say. When a Life Scout cannot do basic T-2-1 first aid, that is a problem. And if you try to have standards, you get complaints of adding to requirements or gatekeeping, and told they need to quit. Some folks quit. And some just focus on their units. As for professionals, the training I went through as a pro didn't cover programming, just the "3 Ms": Money, Membership, and Manpower. Yes, I had to have SM Fundamentals, Cub Scout Basic Leader Training, and Explorer Leader Basic (either the full class or self study course with advisor) in order to be a DE. But that was so that we could understand the programs we were working for. And I am told today's DEs not only getting less topics covered in training, but also are NOT required to have any of the program basic trainings done completed prior to professional training.. So very few pros have the abilties to run programs.

Scoutldr cmon….how else can scouts “get” all the MBs by 14?

Will be on WB staff next time around.

That was easy to predict. Merit badge mills. Hard to hold the line when just replace you. Part of the reason the eagle badge means less.

Probably polishing my "annoyed stone" a bit, but the fact he did not make Eagle is secondary. Did he enjoy his time, and did he learn to live the Spirit?

This is a good method if the instructors are clear that "Hey you're doing this pretending to be the members of the PLC, you're learning through their eyes". That's not often clear though right? WB will help if your council actually runs WB correctly. My local WB is so disgusting that leaders are starting to travel out of council in order to try and experience the process correctly. Here's a juicy quote from a fellow leader "I'm going to PTC to do WB because I want to be able to come back and audit the local WB and tell these idiots how they don't have a clue as to what they're doing."

The pressure from sports to be "100% committed to the team" starts to manifest as kids move into Middle School. The same happens with the school play, and most other extra-curriculars. The adults in charge exert the pressure b/c it is more difficult for them to run their program with inconsistent attendance. Just like scouting is more of a hassle with inconsistent attendance. Best way for Scouts to address this is to focus on patrol activities, encourage highly active scouts (those who are 90-100%) to create their own patrol and plan/do stuff together. This high functioning patrol can act as the model for all the others.

I hate the trend toward Merit Badge Universities, Virtual "classes" (you don't even have to be in the same Council or State), and working on MB during troop meetings with a MBC registered "for Troop XX only". I am old enough to remember when the training I took (and later taught) that the Merit Badge program was designed to not only stir interests in subjects that may result in advanced skills, but an introduction to lifelong hobbies and vocations. The "Merit Badge Counselor" concept was to encourage the Scout to a) take initiative to choose a badge to work on, after consulting with his SM, b) take initiative to reach out to a counselor that he probably didn't know who was a recognized "expert" by vocation or avocation, and c) to work on the badge with the counselor's guidance independent of troop activities. AKA, the "adult association" method of Scouting. Now, none of that happens. Scouts are told to show up at the MBU, or Troop meeting and in some cases TOLD what badge they are going to work on, which in some cases means just sitting there through the "lecture" as a group. Sure, some MB are suited to be incorporated into the Troop Outdoor program, such as Camping, Cooking, Orienteering, Hiking, etc, and should be a byproduct of the program, not the purpose of it. Scouts get enough of "classroom" with an adult lecturing at them. Scouting is not school. I agree with the opinion that Scouting has been watered down to the point of being ludicrous. For us, back in the day, it was a way of life, not just an "extracurricular" to list on the college application.

While I agree in principle, at least in my area the council and district mB events are not staffed by qualified counselors. For example, the district person in charge of an event a few years ago asked me if I would counsel the Camping merit badge at an event. She pushed for (in her words) scouts with little experience to get the badge in a 2-hour session. A group of 20+ mind you. After I explained the requirements, and the impossibility to work with scouts and test them individually in that short time frame, not to mention the camping nights requirement. I said I was happy to do an "intro to camping" seminar with demonstrations and hands-on activities and leave the scouts with my contact info. Her reply was, "if you do the seminar can't you just sign off their blue cards?" Grrr. I said no, scouts need to personally demonstrate each requirement as written. In short, they found someone else. The system is broken.

If the parent is adamant that the Scout isn't being held back on purpose, and there is nothing wrong with how the troop is operating, the only plausible scenario to me is the Scout is just not pursuing to get signed off on requirements or request a SM conference. If the Scout was doing those things, then based on what you have written, it would seem that the troop is holding them back and the parent isn't being honest to themself.

Thinking a bit more ... I am getting crotchety in my old age. LOL. ... I hope the scout can advance. That would be great. ... But when I hear a parent threaten to pull their scout out because they can't advance, I am frustrated. Advancement is just one benefit and not the biggest one. Is the scout having a positive experience in scouting? Having fun? Growing in character and responsibility? If so, that's the big part. ... I wish advancement always naturally followed that, but it doesn't always. And it makes me sad when the scout loses out on advancement. ... But to threaten to pull the scout because of that is also frustrating to me.

All of last year the national and regional meetings discussed consolidations of use and more days of use on existing camps. I get what is being said, a lot of camps are literally used for only 6 to 8 weeks a year and then they sit unused drawing resources for maintenance.

Another reason on adult attitudes was WHEN (emphasis) they were in Scouting. I know a former Scouter who was an Eagle in the 1972-1979 "Improved Scouting Program" era. That was when it was possible to be an Eagle without a single night of camping. He could not understand why camping was important.

As much as I like the idea, the cow is out the barn regarding advancement. I remember watching some national online meeting during COVID, I think it was 2021 National Meeting, where National was praising a FL council for having online MBUs and awarding over 20,000 MBs during the pandemic. As for adults bringing back integrity, you already have adults trying to cut corners on training. I had adults trying to get me to sign off on their training, but would not staff a class, or when it was allowed, test out of the class. Sorry if I am pessimistic.

So I attended my first event today with the new troop. The SM is "trained," but admitted he doesn't consider himself "trained," and is glad I am joining the troop. We started talking, and from the discussion, I realized a lot of info was left out of the online training. We are trying to recruit new Scouters, and I have a feeling I will be doing some informal training with them on camp outs.

I know when we did how a troop meeting is done with the old SM Fundamentals (SMF) Training, we were told we were to act like Scouts, and work as patrols during our meeting. Maybe because of my age at the time, but I didn't have problems. And I didn't notice any of my patrol mates having problems either. If memory serves, the model PLC used the actual SMF troop PLs with the rest of us watching. But I may be getting confused with BA22 and JLTC. But I agree 100%, training needs to focus more on interaction with Scouts through mentoring and counseling. That was a skill set, counseling PLs while being SPL or JASM, with both BA 22 and JLTC, was very applicable as an adult.

Today's Scouting is not the same program as it use to be. The Cub Scout Program was completely revamped in 2015, with a revision of those requirements in December 2016 . My then Webelos 2 said they "watered down requirements" because they made things easier to earn. Thankfully the pack decided to ignore the 2016 changes until June 2017 because the "immediate" changes were major enough to cause advancement delays, as well as force the pack to change their programming. And they have changed the program a few more times since 2017, with the latest being Webelos cannot begin transitioning to Scouts as that happens in 5th grade now. As for Scouts, the emphasis is on advancement, not fun, adventure, and growth.

Hard to really tell, but you are correct, something seems off.

@Eagle94-A1, I hope your experience with youth sports is the exception and not the norm. Anecdotally, I'll share ours has been mainly positive. There has been no directive to attend 100% of practices, games, camps, etc. Rather, it's pretty obvious (to me and to my 3rd grader) which kids puts in the work and which don't. His school team practices 2x per week from November through mid-March. The more-skilled kids also attend private small group training at a local for-profit facility, hit the YMCA with their dad on the weekend, and take an occasional private lesson. A kid's skill level at this age is highly correlated with the amount of extra work they put in outside of the normal practice schedule (and their parents' income 😛). Of my son's two main activities, he's observed that hard work in basketball comes with improved skill, admiration from peers, and cool looking gear, while hard work in Cub Scouts comes with virtually no added benefits because everyone gets the same awards anyway. You might occasionally see for-profit operators put undue pressure on kids and families to commit to a sport, but I bet most high school coaches in large suburban districts don't care because their talent pool is so rich. Any coach worth their salt is going to make reasonable exceptions for their players, but if a kid isn't putting in the work, it will eventually show in their performance. I'm still a big advocate of Scouting. The fact that it's so different from youth sports is (mostly) a good thing. I hope my son sticks with them both, but right now youth basketball is better at meeting his needs and interests.

That is part of the problem. Sports tend to want your entire life to revolve around the sport, and nothing else. Or there will be consequences. I still remember when the martial arts dojo sprang a last minute weekend seminar with 4 days notice. Happened to be the same weekend an aunt from out of town was visiting. The owners expected my kids to attend the last minute weekend seminar instead of the activities we had planned with their aunt. The next session after the weekend seminar, all those who didn't attend were chewed out. And when it came time to spar, those who attended were being encouraged to beat the crap out of those who didn't attend. When I talk to parents of kids involved in sports, all I hear is how their lives are completely turned around and focused on that sport: school team, travel leagues, camps, workshops, etc. Scouting doesn't have that mentality. I think some folks want the low advancement standards so their child can get eagle and move on to focus on sports.

Training sucks. There is no denying it. Standards have dropped to the point they are almost nonexistant, and if you try to keep some, you are told you are gatekeeping or adding to requirements. Folks with knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience are being told they don't know what they are doing, they need to quit, etc. they are getting fed up and quitting. As far as professionals go, very, very few have what it takes to run programs. Most are just out of college and trying to pay off loans. more later.

So, despite a few strong programs in every area, unit programming seems to be lacking. I suggested more council / district events run by professionals and experienced volunteers, but everyone's experience there indicates those are also hit and miss. Is Scouting just not a great program anymore? 🤔 Since we're still in the Scouts vs. Sports thread: I was recently provided a list of possible summer camp dates for my 3rd grader, and I (as a Den Leader) couldn't commit to any of them until basketball camp schedules come out. My son is on the top team, but probably only the 6th or 7th best player in his grade. He risks being bumped to the B-Team next year if organizers don't think we take basketball seriously in the offseason. Would he probably be OK if he missed a week of basketball for Scout Camp? Yes. Is he good enough that he wants to risk it? No. There is a definite FOMO / scarcity element to youth sports.

Phone a different MBC each month. That allows for 36 awards potentially earned between ages 11-12. What would happen if the majority of scouts did that? MBU proponents would gripe about the 1% of scouts who skate through because of the few lax MBCs.

I was invited to teach a MB at an MBU. Told them point blank it would be a partial. Sent out email telling Scouts in the class what things they could do before the MBU to get the MB. I got a lot of complaints, and was never asked back. Irony was it was Indian Lore MB, and i had a full blood Lakota stationed at the air base "auditing" my class. I got a lot of praise from her for what we went over. Too bad she wasn't in the session with the smart aleck who asked "which is more violent, Rugby or Lacrosse" My response was "While rugby is a thug sport played by gentlemen, and rugby's unofficial motto is 'Give Blood, Play Rugby,' no one ever was enslaved or executed for losing a game of rugby whereas in some versions of lacrosse losers were enslaved or ritually sacrificed. So Lacrosse is the more violent of the two." Shut him down the rest of the class.

First time posting about a specific trip we've taken, but this one is worth mentioning in case anyone in the area is looking for ideas. We're Central/North NJ, so it was a 6.5 hour drive for us (not including stopping for gas and food), but well worth it. We stayed at Mount Norris Scout Reservation in Eden, VT. The camp director, Eric Bouchard, was down sick, but still repaired a door in their trading post so we could change our reservation and add people to our trip. When we arrived late Friday night to 5 degrees F, he had the lights on and the heat up and the parking lot freshly plowed. The scouts spent quite a bit of time just playing in the snow in the field near the dining hall. https://www.scoutingvermont.org/mtnorris.html Saturday we drove to Catamount Outdoor Family Center, in Williston. It's about an hour from the camp, but again, worth it. They rent cross-country skis, snowshoes and a limited number of fat bikes, and have a sledding hill. Due to thawing and refreezing prior to our visit, the scouts weren't able to ski or sled, but we did bike and snowshoe. For biking, there are sections of trail that are manageable for anyone who is a decent biker, but there are also some very technical sections. The four of us who biked all have mountain biking experience, so we did hit some of the more difficult sections and it was a blast! Catamount offers group rates and day passes, along with seasonal. They had a nice fire going in the field outside the office and rental building. Our scouts on snowshoes took out the trail stoves and cooked at the 'Cliffs of Insanity'. https://catamountoutdoor.org/ Sunday, just a ten-minute drive from camp, we visited Eden Ethical Dogsledding. I can't even tell you how much fun this was. The kids enjoyed the sledding, but it was the time spent with the dogs that was the biggest hit. If you've never walked into a house and been surrounded by twenty dogs, you're missing out on a wonderful experience. The scouts just hung out with the dogs, eating popcorn and warm cookies, for about 40 minutes. They then helped put harnesses on the dogs, hook them to the traces on the sleds, and afterward un-harness and feed the dogs treats. Jim and his staff had hot chocolate waiting for us afterward, and in an unexpected twist, brought out the Arctic Cat to rescue one parent who got turned around (lost-ish) and ended up in a ditch. All around top-notch visit. https://www.edendogsledding.com/ All three (Camp, Catamount, Eden Ethical) are open year-round.

I resembled that remark.