Leaderboard

Generally speaking in all non-profits when you complain you are really volunteering. There is certainly a nicer way to say it, but sometimes you just have to tell these mouthy parents that if they want change they need to step the-f-up or shut up.

Any time membership drop is discussed there are always qualifiers; well it was this, it was that, it was letting females in, it was not letting females in soon enough, it was the Mormon Church leaving, it was letting in 5 year old Lions, it was COVID, Scouting cost too much. it's the way too long Cub program, it was the bankruptcy, we need to wait for this date to normalize, the new registration system messed up stuff, etc etc. All very good assumptions, but an best anecdotal. There are no facts and no real understanding of why membership continues to drop. There are never any facts (from districts / councils / national / executive board) to support and figure a path forward. What SA (formerly BSA) is NOT doing is root cause analysis; for youth leaving / not joining OR for successful units. Where are the actual exit interviews, where is the research, who is benchmarking successful units with floundering units. Yes there is universal leader / volunteer training but what works and what doesn't? IMHO National and Councils are mainly looking at dollars raised. I got a survey recently about my perception (attitude??) about Scouting America. In summary it was mainly about donations and financially supporting Scouting. In my council there is no emphasis on adding members. DE's focus on raising funds, so the council can hire staff to raise money. All events are monetized. Goal of Scouts is to raise money, that is the bar. Until the BSA comes to really understand underlying issues, what needs and perceptions are not being met, and what needs to be changed, nothing will change. Bottom line, 815,000 youth in 230 (or so) councils means 3,500 youth per council. If a Council Executive (average) pay is $200K (all in) that means just for the local CE there is a burden of $57 per member. Data suggest 3,100 or so SA employees, so that may indicate (with benefits) just labor overhead burden of +/- $190,000,000 or $233 PER YOUTH member. That is before any other overhead costs such as IT, liability insurance. SA (formerly BSA) needs to reduce the costs, focus on growth, and get rid of what doesn't add value.

Source: https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/treks/secondseasonprograms/winteradventure/

Hammers? Totin' Chip traditionally asks the Scout to MAKE a really good tent peg. Hatchet(s) part of a Scout's kit, yes? Our Troop used to (I should check on this) make poles out of saplings and the tent pegs were kept for use and as examples for the next Scouts.... As for the tarp/ shelter, the Troop of my yoooth made them out of 4 mill plastic and heavy duty duck tape and grommet sets. Ten by ten, made shelter tents and dining flies and such. Older Scouts took 'em to Philmont and Jamborees, said others ooo'ed and awww'ed at them...

Some membership information (and membership figures are rarely provided) National SA (formerly BSA) youth membership stood at 814,950 at the end of August 2025, down 6.35 percent from 870,177 in August 2024. This was from a summary of the CST (Council Service Territory) roll-up numbers Has National office actually published any membership information recently?

Watching the former CDC director testify before Congress and got me wondering... Answer: Just one, tetanus. Source: https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/ahmr/medical-formfaqs/

Yes, at the "national" level... but this very much depends on your state and county health departments, also. For example, from the Ten Mile River Scout Reservation Leaders Guide, the edicts of the People's Republic of New York are "New York State law requires all Scouts who attend camp for more than one week to complete an additional form about meningitis. See “Meningitis ” on page 18 for more information. In March 2024, the Sullivan County Department of Public Health issued Local Board of Health Public Health Order No. 1 – 2024 Children’s Camps. It requires that all campers at any summer camp in the county have certain vaccinations, and this will apply to every Scout who will be camping at TMR this summer. A copy of the order is included with the TMR version of the AHMR. Quoting from the order: All campers must have documentation of these vaccinations administered before the beginning of camp: • Diphtheria and Tetanus toxoid-containing vaccine and Pertussis vaccine (Dtap/DTP/Tdap) • Hepatitis B vaccine or proof of immunity • Measles, Mumps and Rubella vaccine (MMR) or proof of immunity (positive titer) • Polio vaccine (IPV/OPV) • Varicella (Chickenpox) vaccine or proof of immunity • Meningococcal conjugate vaccine (MenACWY)- Measles ” on page 19 Sullivan County requires documentation for all campers, adult leaders and staff of proof of immunity to measles. Thus, it’s important that the date of measles vaccination be included on the AHMR." https://tenmileriver.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/TMR-Guide-25.pdf YYMV in your state...

At least inn our neck of the woods, So Cal, I still see a lot of confusion with our longest lasting units that tend toward starting with Methodists. The "workaround?" that in theory protects the Church from direct legal problems is confusing and in some areas still, apparently seen as a line in the sand. We are fortunate that our particular small (once very large) congregation loves the units we have in the basement and comes out in force when we have fundraising events. We also help as possible with many things within the church, but it is also struggling, as are most mainline Protestant churches, to maintain. We have three small congregations with two pastors serving them in the area. One location, while still in the district and area, is being slowly redeveloped in hand with local efforts for the homeless and similar issues. An affordable housing project is currently in process on what was once a large parking lot for the defunct church. But, its main buildings are still serving the community through the conglomerate maintained. We still seem to have at least three, maybe four Methodist-affiliated unit families in the council, but pinning it down is hard, as the charter is fuzzy, at best.

well said Any survivor who is reading this and not sought mental health help I encourage you to do so. It has helped edge me closer to "normalcy" though none of us will ever be "recovered".

I've known our CC for a few years now, well before we even entered the troop. She is looking more and more exhausted these days. We got a couple of new families in and there have been complaints from them constantly. Apparently, there are complaints from other parents too. When did this become a thing? When I was a kid, parents had minimal contact with the troop, unless they were registered. She does a great job and I don't want her to quit. Personally, I'm of the mindset that the CC doesn't have the responsibility to investigate any complaints. It's not in the job description. When I was the pack CC, and when my wife was before me, our policy was that complaints are only accepted from registered adults who actively participate. Anything else was peripheral noise from people who don't really care about the program. She had a parent who had been in the troop for all of 4 days screaming at her because of the cellphone thing. She's too nice to tell the lady to pound sand and find a different unit. I'd like to help her out. Husband is the acting SM and we had a few discussions this weekend. The kids are ok - we caught two of them in a pretty significant lie. Another parent came with a complaint that her 12 y/o son saw an 11 y/o boy naked. When I asked the 11 y/o, he reported that the 12 y/o peeked in the window of his tent while he was changing. I was inclined to chalk it all up to little boys being little boys, but the mom of the 11 y/o, who was also willing to ignore it, is now cocked and ready to launch an attack on the 12 y/o's family. I'm realizing that Scouting, like veterinary medicine, is fun until the parents get involved.

See this link for detail. https://donations.scouting.org/#/council/NCFD/appeal/8757

Do not feel sorry. There are far too many survivors that have the same emotional issues as you.

I’m sorry, I need to vent for a minute. This has been rough learning an entire year of nothing happening with the Slater cases, of which I am one. I thought financial help with this case could help me through my elderly years, because it’s obvious to me I will never let this go. I have my good days and bad days, unfortunately, being part of this case removed most of those ‘good days’. It took me nearly a year to get everything together, fill out my questionnaire, and get it in. I would have to work weekends on it because of how badly it affected my work day and my daily life. After adding the case to my life a few days were hitting me particularly bad. I would sit in my back yard holding a hose, sitting in a chair watering the same spot of grass for hours at a time and crying. One day I was out there all day and the neighbors started getting worried. I thought this part of my sadness was done with. I learned that all of those times in life my throat closing up was anxiety. In the last few years, hard anxiety attacks were now taking me to the hospital a number of times to make sure I wasn’t about to check out. The night the abuse started I walked home with a tinnitus ringing loud in my left ear. This loud ringing stayed with me for two decades. By the end of my 20s, the ringing had subsided . But within months of deciding to enter this case the ear ringing came back strong. Hearing this ringing again really isn’t worth any of this. But I’m not financially stable, I need help. I attribute these poor financial abilities to the abuse directly. Prior to the abuse I was an excellent student, straight A’s, an eagerness to learn, happy, sports, friends, but after the abuse that was gone. The abuse destroyed who I was and what I was to become. At the beginning of last year, my questionnaire and everything was turned into Slater (a few months before the pause). After a few months of finishing the questionnaire I inquired about updates and was told there was none. Every few months I asked about updates and again there were none. Knowing there was a pause, they said nothing. I somewhat understand that part. But have they even found a mediator?? Have they even started vetting a single one of these 14000 cases????? I didn’t think about how long this case was going to be and now there’s going to be another stranger I have to spill my guts to. I don’t really have a question I think I just want to keep thanking all of you with everything I am. You’re the only ones that have truly helped my mind and my heart during this case. I honestly don’t think any of us can truly let anything go. I think people are just better at ignoring things? I’ve met a lot of abuse survivors and a lot of them could hide things so well. I can’t seem to do that. I’m so broken I don’t know what to do. I want a vacation from myself but that doesn’t exist. I tried medication and it made things worse. I tried talking to doctors, it made it worse. I had one doctor laugh at me and say you’re a big boy, you’ll be fine, slapped me on the back and prescribed me meds?? I mainly spent Saturday afternoons working on my case, so then I could be emotional appropriate for work on Monday morning. This is off topic but one of the days I was sitting there on the back porch working on my case, I was staring off into the backyard. I saw two hummingbirds flying straight at each other and the second they got super close to one another they did this tight spiral together straight up into the sky I thought I was seeing things and then it happened again that day. I don’t know if that’s some kind of mating ritual or what that is but I thought that was really neat. Goodnight everyone, bless you all.

Like when I tried to reiterate that BSA policy (then) was single gender units, not full co-ed. They responded, "we just do what works best for us."...I wondered what else "worked best"...ignoring YP policy...G2SS...safety afloat? No wonder the BSA gets sued.

Cooperative uses of propeties by youth serving groups, and family serving entities should be a no brainer. Looking at the history of BSA, it is hard to imaging what may have evolved WITHOUT the YMCA and the involvement of community groups. We now have NO camps, yet the GS camp sits empty much of the year, and they choose to NOT make it easily used by Scouting America. It seems logical to me, but what do I know, that all of these groups should be designing cooperative involvements, not just for camping on owned properties that are still viable, but also for programming. The often over used "it takes a family" seems to fit here. Early towns survived by cooperative methods. While religions have slipped to the background in modern society, the silent familial opportunities still fill a huge hole in betterment of society. Another otion might be for the large corporated outdoor and sports corporations enter into the saving of camps still there, but slipping, and develop coordinated events with updated facilities, open not ALL youth serving groups, perhaps on the traditional Summer Camp model, but also in special camps to support the environment and to introduce the trades and so on. So many options that go untried for whatever excuse, while billions of dollars are wasted on foolishness and destruction of our world.

Not always. I have seen Scouters go through all the training, yet still want to do things their way because 'Scouting needs to change with the times." Others just go through the motions, and then focus on their child. When you try to explain things, and mentor them, you are accused of "mansplaining," "being a misogynist," or "you don't know my son."

Not necessarily. I gotta be in the bottom 3 due to size. I could be wrong though. We are running the program as it should be run. Biggest challenge is no feeder pack, and have not had one for approximately 12 years. We got most of our scouts from existing ones who were dissatisfied with their troops. A few others who were never in Cubs, but had friends having fun with the troop was the other source. As the council stopped recruiting, packs have dwindled and died. Troops take a little longer since it is a 7 year program, and not a 4.5, now 5.5 year, program like Cubs. The Strongest troop does things their own way, and are successful because they are extremely protective of their pack. Leadership is shared, and they get fussy if other Scouts even talk to theirs.

I get that, but sometimes the only way they learn is through doing.

More details on Scouts Davin, Raphael, and Avi actions and CPR training. In that parking lot in March, Raphael instantly recalled what he had been taught. “You have to put the palm of the bottom of your hand, you have to push that two inches deep into the middle of the chest. You have to do that a lot during a minute, 100 to 120 [compressions].” While Avi emotionally supported Davin, Raphael and some parents took turns giving Laurent CPR, and continued to do so for at least ten minutes until paramedics arrived. It was then that the boys learned just how well everyone did their jobs. “Some of the new defibrillators don’t fire if they sense a pulse,” explained Davin, “and it didn’t fire, so [the paramedics] knew [my dad] had a pulse.” Laurent is now on his way to a full recovery. Davin later learned from his uncle, a cardiologist, that his father had a 5% chance of survival, “and an even lower chance that he would be completely undamaged with no major injuries,” Davin explained. “As far as we can tell, he does not have brain damage or amnesia.” ... Sources (includes audio and photos - nice Class B's) https://www.fcps.edu/news/classroom-community-how-three-fcps-students-saved-dads-life-thanks-cpr-lesson https://wjla.com/news/local/students-save-life-longfellow-middle-school-fairfax-county-cpr-training-boy-scouts-classroom-lesson-life-saving-emergency-heroes-cardiac-arrest-fcps-program Scout salute to Scouts and their school, Longfellow Middle School , for being a HEARTSafe school.

While that surely was part of the issue, it also was a time when lawsuits for slander were far more common and likely to be won. We can discuss or beat it to death; it was NOT today. Societal norms have changed, but even now there is considerable fear of slander, even with the more liberal responses from the courts. There is more than enough blame to go around, both in the past BSA actions, or lack of, but also in the fact that many authorities were unwilling to follow up, and even many families did not want stuff out in the public. As has been noted more than once, none of the survivors or victims are ever going to be made whole, and we can only work to try to do better and follow the newer standards, in SA, as well as perhaps in the larger society. The horse is well whipped, but the crop needs to be at hand just in case. As I have said before, I have no solution other than to pray for a modicum of peace for those that need it, and for somehow society to take the needed responsibility more often than not. We cannot change the past nor cure it, but only move forward with better choices and reactions.

Scouting is becoming more expensive but it isn't super expensive. One of my units recently got a family back from sports. They had pulled all of their kids and pumped them into baseball and after a year of the costs of organized baseball they came right back to scouting. I think the expensive part of scouting is hidden by bad units and units that are too reliant on district/council based programming. One of the troops that I help with is getting ready to do its big fall campout and the cost for a weekend is currently at $70 a person. I'm struggling to understand why, with our state parks and how cheap it is to camp in them the cost should be more in line with $20 a person (for a 2 night 3 day campout). The council fees are ridiculous. Michigan is $85 a person which is the highest in my neck of the woods. I look across the council line and I have no idea what they are getting for that $85 that we are not getting in my council and we're barely paying a council fee here.

Resurrecting a slightly older post instead of creating a new one. I have noticed in the last couple decades more and more eagle projects with plaques attached with the scout's name and troop number. While I appreciate knowing a project was done by scouts, I have begun to wonder about the creep from joyful service without recognition or reward to emblazoned plaques. I can see the benefit to the movement of recognizing the project as that of Scouting. Perhaps I am just being a fuddy-duddy or perhaps I am seeing how this named recognition decreases a main purpose of scouting of building character through cheerful service. Perhaps it would be better if there were official plaques from HQ stating simply, "Scouting America Eagle Project <year>" and more forcefully promote the "without recognition" part of service. Of course the scout is recognized by the troop, council, and HQ for their achievement of Eagle.

I am a big fan of running the rainfly to the ground instead of outer poles. It's hard to describe and for some reason I have no pictures of it; however, there is a way to make a short rainfly with nothing but 2 hiking sticks, some paracord, and 6 tent stakes that can hold up in moderately rough weather. I've been involved in the logging/lumber trade off and on for over 40 years and I get what people say about axes and hatchets and how to properly use them; however, a tool is a tool and if you wear it out "early" from actual functional use then so be it. If you're backpacking and you need to use a hatchet to work the ground or pound something it I find that preferrable to carrying an extra 10 pounds of weight that could harm your (or a youths) back. After a trek you can always work a hatchet with a bastard file, stores readily sell files and hatches but not new backs or knees.

Not sure National gets it yet, though there are indications some do. I am not likely to live long enough, though to see broad positive movement across the spectrum. Still, at least the program is still making effort, no matter how jumbled it may be.

If my memory serves, when we did our first trek at Philmont, a fly was part of our gear, and we were specifically encouraged to put it up FIRST and put other gear beneath. It is an important piece of any site, especially in areas subject to rain or mists. In cases of drive-ins, a heavier-duty type can be useful, but packing works best with the lightweight ones. And you do not need poles if you have trees and so on, though they make it easier.

Yesterday it was revealed that 14.000 survivor claims where Slater Slater and Schulman were the representing attorneys have been on hold since June 2024. Judge Houser sent a letter to Judge Silverstein telling the court that all 14,000 claims will need to go thru an independent third-party review to check for validness. The Slater Firm has admitted to their clients that they have used improper procedures, and the trust used the wording "that there are procedural and factual problems in some of the Slater Firm’s claim submissions to the Trust.". The cost of the Independent Third-Party reviews will be borne by the Slater Firm. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/4edc6640-5bce-4b58-99e2-e8cfb2c6484a_13103.pdf

As a former pro, I can tell you even with professionals leading every troop, the quality will vary. Yes it is a red flag, one that says the council is not supporting the units, at least in my experience with 2 different councils. Districts and councils are there to support the unit, not the other way around. If a unit is in need of help from the district/council, and is constantly being ignored, the unit will start isolating themselves. If unit leaders work to put on events, and do not get the support they need to run the event, get overruled on things, or the event is cancelled last minute despite everything being in place and ready to go, but the "budget surplus" is not being met, then units will start isolating themselves. If a unit attends their council summer camp, and it is an absolute Charley Foxtrot; with the suggestions and recommendations to improve the camp and its program are ignored, then you will have units doing their own thing. The irony in my experience is that the leaders of these units were usually some of the most active, pro council volunteers. In one council I was in, the units in question had former district committee members, Silver Beavers and OA Vigils in them. They were accused of being "Council Kool Aid Drinkers ( I know, Jim Jones used Flavor Aid), because they were at one time so supportive of council. Ditto on the second council I have seen this occur.

The post was for info of any interested. The Villa is a historical building and the damage is to the story of the house. Yes, the elements are not picky about when or where they roar. I was at PTC years ago during one of the storms, at lightning struck a tree in the lawn area of the Villa, where we watched the deer graze and rabbits nose. The tree exploded, literally into a pile of firewood and splinters. Making repairs as close to the original as possible is the goal, while protecting the edifice with updated options. For me, it seems important to keep the original designs and if possible the original materials, or surviving similar ones in use, while adding protections as able.

Yet another discussion that is proof that we should scrap the eagle project.

In that vein of thought, please stop sugar coating BSA's past and blatant coverups.

Haven't seen anything "published" is the usual manner... or in Annual Report to Congress since 2023: https://www.scouting.org/about/annual-report/ Or NAM presentations, 2024: https://nam.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2024/05/Change-the-Way-We-Work-Together.pdf Transparency has never been a strength of BSA (my opinion). Which is often a signal that bad news pervades and must be hidden from view. (again, opinion).

Update April 10, 2025: "The April 9 arrest on undisclosed charges resulted in Michael Kelsey being held at the Dutchess County Jail Wednesday night. Kelsey was previously arrested in 2023 for a parole violation." Source: https://midhudsonnews.com/2025/04/10/former-lawmaker-and-boy-scout-leader-kelsey-arrested-for-another-parole-violation/ Update Sept 13, 2025: "On Thursday, September 11, Kelsey was returned to prison for the April parole violation. He is confined in the St. Lawrence Correctional Facility." https://midhudsonnews.com/2025/09/13/former-legislator-who-molested-scouts-back-in-prison-after-violating-parole-again/