Leaderboard

We've had similar experiences with various sports coaches and then specifically baseball coaches when the more sports oriented son settled into that. Almost all of them were good and many, especially in baseball, were supportive of scouting. I think one big difference I've seen in youth athletics overall is that bad coaches, unlike bad adult scout volunteers, generally don't linger. The volunteer shortage in scouting means the organization seems to hang on to almost any warm body, no matter how problematic. The existence of umpires and league arbiters also mean that the kinds of rule and vague policy questions that plague scouting, and are the source of numerous social media sites and posts, are resolved more efficiently in sports. As for adult scouters, one possible reason is I think scouting experiences are much more fragmented and individual. One adult might have been in a unit that camped all the time; another adult might have been in a unit that was more advancement driven; another in a unit that was very integrated with a religion; yet another with one that was influenced by military connections and philosophies. When they re-experience it with their kids, it can seem completely different and offputting and definitely more complicated. Sports, on the other hand, can seem almost universally familiar. There have been rule and equipment changes but pretty much youth basketball, football, baseball, soccer players are playing the same game their parents did no matter what part of the country they were from. It's easier to re-onboard with and more understandable. They don't need as much training to be functional.

Wow, go out of town for a couple days and wow a lot was here to chew on. The all merit badge issue is in my opinion a matter of money. The scouts that I have personally seen get them all basically bought their way through it by having the cash to go-go-go. I don't believe a scout should have to master a skill to get a merit badge; however, at the same time I don't believe some of these scouts have retained any knowledge of the harder merit badges which defeats a huge part of the purpose of the merit badge process. The merit badge mills (MBU, etc ... )are less of a concern for me. They're such a mixed bag. Some scouts are coming in with pre-requisites and meeting the base standard, some are exceeding the standard, some are just being tossed a merit badge (which plainly sucks and hurts the scouts and program). I think the difficulty here is that there is a base standard, a minimum; we often get lost in the haze of debate over a scout who over achieves and people believing that should re-baseline the merit badge requirements. Merit badges are not on a bell curve, you do the standard you get the badge. I sat in at a MBU last year and I had a handful of parents and scouts lose their mind on me because they came in with literal reams of pre-work and while great, demonstrating above average achievement, it was a lot of work that was not required. I had to tell a scout and his parents that the standard was X and they did X+10. I had to tell them that the other scouts who just did exactly the requirement for the pre-requisites would get the exact same merit badge. They lost their minds, to them because little billy did more, so should everyone else. The requirements to become a MBC are horrible in every way. The standards are arbitrary and subjective. There are very few if any audits of skill going on. There are fiefdoms for certain merit badges. My personal hate is being told I was not qualified to be an MBC for a merit badge and I came back with "I have over 40 years experience and certified training in this, wtf do you mean I am not qualified to be an MBC for this?". When national rolled out the Citizenship in Society MB and all the hoops you had to jump through to be an MBC for that, where the heck are those hoops for any other MB? How can people get signed off to be an MBC without doing the 15min free online training? Too wrap this up I just had to talk a troop leader off the ledge who was going to lose his $%^& on our councils "MB Dean" when the MB Dean told the troop leader that he wasn't qualified to MBC Citizenship in the Nation; the troop leader is teacher who literally teaches a course called "Citizenship in America" at a local high school. The whole process is broken.

We have one like this in our troop. Kid just likes doing the stuff he likes to do in scouts and doesn't care about the patches. Doesn't come to regular weekday meetings often, but is usually on the hikes and camp outs. He has the skills, I see him use them regularly, just doesn't feel like going through the motions for the sign offs. He's happy. Parents are happy. Other kids and adults like him and his parents. I have no doubt he lives by the Oath and Law.

Not just Cubs, and it is worse. I had to talk to Scouts who cared less about Eagle because they know Eagles who honestly didn't earn it. They asked me "What's the purpose if everyone gets it." That was a difficult discussion. They got upset with folks being handed MBs without doing the work they did. Again another difficult discussion. But the one that hit me hard was OA elections. OA meant a lot to me growing up, and I remained active as an adult. Sons even helped me assemble regalia and the drum. None of my sons got interested in the OA. One because he saw folks he knew, and questioned how they got elected. Another was pumped to join, until the Call Out Ceremony, when one of his peers in his former troop, who hated camping and was a trouble maker, got called out with him. He lost all interest in the OA because, "If an honor society will let him in, it is not a big deal." Youngest was never interested because of his brothers' experiences. Which was good because the chapter would not stop to do unit elections after 3 years of asking for them. I know in some parts of the country, HS extracurriculars are also graded. I know at the HS I went to, your PE class was based on the sports you played. The practices and games in season counted as class, and the scheduled class period was mandatory study hall. Miss a practice or game, there went your grade. Band had it worse as they had to attend practices, games, competitions, and parades. Depending on the time of year, their music class was more practice, and not study hall. Ditto with missing something, because it affected your grade.

Sorry for the disjointedness. dealing with issues. Training is horrible, and adults do not know vital skills. How can you expect a good program if you cannot do the basics? Many units focus on advancement, a left over from Cub Scouts IMHO. And part of that is WDLs have not been getting the training they need on transitioning from Cubs to Scouts. And they keep on doing what they have been trained. Additionally advancement standards have indeed dropped, despite what folks say. When a Life Scout cannot do basic T-2-1 first aid, that is a problem. And if you try to have standards, you get complaints of adding to requirements or gatekeeping, and told they need to quit. Some folks quit. And some just focus on their units. As for professionals, the training I went through as a pro didn't cover programming, just the "3 Ms": Money, Membership, and Manpower. Yes, I had to have SM Fundamentals, Cub Scout Basic Leader Training, and Explorer Leader Basic (either the full class or self study course with advisor) in order to be a DE. But that was so that we could understand the programs we were working for. And I am told today's DEs not only getting less topics covered in training, but also are NOT required to have any of the program basic trainings done completed prior to professional training.. So very few pros have the abilties to run programs.

So many things get in the way of real continuity. For our unit, early on it was job issues with the chosen individual suddenly being moved and a fortunate replacement stepping up. That resulted is a few decades of solid leadership, but in reality it was up t half a dozen doing the lifting with one at the paper apex. He and his number one ASM received the first two SB awards in our council in the 30's. Sam the SM noted then that they were in reality co-SM's. WWII brought strong step ups to help, and then Sam" son came back and stepped in for a long period. He was forced out due to adults feeling his approach was too outdated. Lots of turmoil and loss of focus, and it almost killed the unit. Finally a steady hand stepped in to level the waves. I was put in the spot against my preference at the time due to personal issues and my job, yet somehow am still there, but now a paper figurehead with others working to keep us afloat. I was forced out due to a stroke and another major issue, and our unit family discovered that issue of poor planning. We now struggle for outdoor options, but we have a few dedicated adults to hold us afloat, though none are outdoor people in the sense of consistent hiking and camping, which had been our focus for most of our history. The history, over a century is a factor though. So we struggle on and I encourage them from the pedestal they put me on and try to find some younger outdoor types, hopefully maybe even past alumni. We also struggle with the Methodist challenge since the lawsuit. Going into year 104 and hopefully can cement the history in place and use it to draw some new true outdoor Scouting adults. Should add that service has Always been a factor for our units, and that is part of its success. Also, still fewer than a hundred Eagles, so we cannot be accused of that often difficult focus.

They can vote with their feet.

Probably polishing my "annoyed stone" a bit, but the fact he did not make Eagle is secondary. Did he enjoy his time, and did he learn to live the Spirit?

This is a good method if the instructors are clear that "Hey you're doing this pretending to be the members of the PLC, you're learning through their eyes". That's not often clear though right? WB will help if your council actually runs WB correctly. My local WB is so disgusting that leaders are starting to travel out of council in order to try and experience the process correctly. Here's a juicy quote from a fellow leader "I'm going to PTC to do WB because I want to be able to come back and audit the local WB and tell these idiots how they don't have a clue as to what they're doing."

The pressure from sports to be "100% committed to the team" starts to manifest as kids move into Middle School. The same happens with the school play, and most other extra-curriculars. The adults in charge exert the pressure b/c it is more difficult for them to run their program with inconsistent attendance. Just like scouting is more of a hassle with inconsistent attendance. Best way for Scouts to address this is to focus on patrol activities, encourage highly active scouts (those who are 90-100%) to create their own patrol and plan/do stuff together. This high functioning patrol can act as the model for all the others.

If the young person is challenged, perhaps seriously, in the "very competitieve school", then perhaps the Scouting is a release, and he or she finds it of lesser import. Age may be a factor eventually if the Scouting interest or involvement is consistent. I have had a couple of long term, but stalled in rank youths that suddenly somewhere past sixteen or seventeen light a fire under themselves for Scouting rank. Sadly, some waited too long, at least in ur unit where they still had to do the work. Every young person sometimes loses focus, or is too focused on other goals. We also do not know often what other pressures or home and school issues may "really" be in play. If they take the "Spirit" forward in their lives, the work is done.

While I'd never push advancement hard, I think it's still a useful tool for attracting and retaining kids with a high need for achievement. Based on what the OP shared (Scout attends a very competitive high school, but hasn't advanced in 3 years), it sounds like the program might be failing him. Agreed, it doesn't make sense.

Council does have a Unit Safety Director on staff. I have never seen or heard any indication of a Council Enterprise Risk Management (ERM) Committee. After a cursory read of the cited document, it does present a broad risk assessment algorithm and fortunately specifies the involvement of subject matter experts. Rather than ponder the risks of a developing and instituting a camp driver training program I returned to the concerns stated in my posts. Lake Erie Council has a mandatory policy that summer camp staff tow troop trailers over owned land to the respective troop campsite. Vehicles used are owned by the adult staff performing the work. This amounts to towing 75 - 100 trailers owned by as many different entities. As the troop trailers are in the temporary custody and control of Council employees this circumstance creates a bailee liability for Council. Generally this form of insurance coverage in not included in general commercial liability policies. I would expect this matter could be addressed by a phone call to Council's insurance carrier. The annual premium might be more than a few loads of gravel.

There is a mechanism already in place... 1. Scout tells parents they would like a new Scoutmaster, and articulates GOOD reasons for it. Parents tell committee: committee evaluates and takes action, with advice and consent of COR. 2. Scout tells Boards of Review they think they'd like a new Scoutmaster, and articulates GOOD reasons for it. (BoR is made of Committee Members and parents.) Committee evaluates and takes action, with advice and consent of COR. Although I understand the sentiment, youth must not make the decision of who should be Scoutmaster. (Inmates running the asylum and all ) To implement this would mean an abdication of responsibility by COR and Troop Committee. Unfortunately, reality is often that the Scoutmaster is simply the person with a pulse who said they'd do the job. In 45+ years of Scouting, I've never seen a unit with a decent succession plan. Still looking for that unicorn. (Yes, I have failed to get this accomplished in many a unit. If I was allowed to be the benevolent dictator, things would have been different.)

It's a great idea and good on you for trying but liability is the issue. They are in no authoritative position to confer any kind of credentialling and if an incident occurs it opens a can of worms that could only lead to enhanced liability. It's easier to just say park it and drive in.

JUST IN CASE YOU NEED SOMETHING TO DO FRIDAY NIGHT....--- You are invited to the WHITE OAK DISTRICT BAND CONCERT - FRIDAY - 1/30/26 @ 7:30pm. (Prompt start - please arrive by 7:20) Come in person to Transfiguration Parish, 13925 New Hampshire Ave, Silver Spring, MD 20904 or watch it live at: https://transfig.org/livestream/ The band is composed of 35 scouts, their family members, and friends who have worked hard to provide a beautiful performance. We hope to see you at Transfiguration.

I agree. There is a staffer posted at each campsite to greet and assist incoming troops, then once camp is set take the guys on an orientation tour. A 10' x 20' gravel pad at each site near the road would would prevent any difficulties. But, as I wrote in an earlier post, gravel costs money. In the current system troops arrive at the campsite with personal gear then wait as much as 2.5 hours for their trailer with troop gear (tents) to appear. This year in a camp leaders Zoom call the camp director discussed the importance of working quickly to set camp. Apparently staff is inconvenienced by the delays. To me this smacks of defending a bad decision. InquisitiveScouter suggested finding another camp. That's in the works.

There is another layer. We rent a trailer from a national truck and trailer rental company. The parties to the rental agreement are well defined and documented in the contract. A third party using their vehicle to tow the rented trailer puts me in material breach of the contract and voids the purchased damage waiver and contents insurance. In the event of damage or worse I would be on the hook and then have to pursue council and the inept driver. That would be after I had to explain why I breached the contract. Oddly enough the solution is let the units bring in and park their trailers in identified spots in the campsites. I know they refuse to consider that.

For us, anyone driving camp (council) vehicles must be listed on the council's insurance policy. Units move and park their own trailers, and those vehicle operators assume liability risk on their own insurance policies per the G2SS, Transportation section: https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss11/ 13. All vehicles must be covered by automobile liability insurance with limits that meet or exceed the requirements of the state in which the vehicle is licensed. It is recommended, however, that coverage limits are at least $100,000 combined single limit. Any vehicle designed to carry ten or more passengers should have limit of $1,000,000. For insurance information refer to the Insurance section in the Guide to Safe Scouting. 14. When towing the tow vehicle driver has the knowledge, skills, and abilities to operate the vehicle with the attached unit. That your council is having "...adult staff using their personal vehicles tow all troop trailers..." is troubling. Council cannot require any staff member to use their personal vehicle for camp requirements, without remuneration and ensuring adequate liability coverage. If they make this some sort of condition for employment, or otherwise require employees (which camp staff are) to use their personal vehicles in this way, they are asking for trouble. Good luck convincing them

If the parent is adamant that the Scout isn't being held back on purpose, and there is nothing wrong with how the troop is operating, the only plausible scenario to me is the Scout is just not pursuing to get signed off on requirements or request a SM conference. If the Scout was doing those things, then based on what you have written, it would seem that the troop is holding them back and the parent isn't being honest to themself.

Thinking a bit more ... I am getting crotchety in my old age. LOL. ... I hope the scout can advance. That would be great. ... But when I hear a parent threaten to pull their scout out because they can't advance, I am frustrated. Advancement is just one benefit and not the biggest one. Is the scout having a positive experience in scouting? Having fun? Growing in character and responsibility? If so, that's the big part. ... I wish advancement always naturally followed that, but it doesn't always. And it makes me sad when the scout loses out on advancement. ... But to threaten to pull the scout because of that is also frustrating to me.

All of last year the national and regional meetings discussed consolidations of use and more days of use on existing camps. I get what is being said, a lot of camps are literally used for only 6 to 8 weeks a year and then they sit unused drawing resources for maintenance.

Another reason on adult attitudes was WHEN (emphasis) they were in Scouting. I know a former Scouter who was an Eagle in the 1972-1979 "Improved Scouting Program" era. That was when it was possible to be an Eagle without a single night of camping. He could not understand why camping was important.

As much as I like the idea, the cow is out the barn regarding advancement. I remember watching some national online meeting during COVID, I think it was 2021 National Meeting, where National was praising a FL council for having online MBUs and awarding over 20,000 MBs during the pandemic. As for adults bringing back integrity, you already have adults trying to cut corners on training. I had adults trying to get me to sign off on their training, but would not staff a class, or when it was allowed, test out of the class. Sorry if I am pessimistic.

I know when we did how a troop meeting is done with the old SM Fundamentals (SMF) Training, we were told we were to act like Scouts, and work as patrols during our meeting. Maybe because of my age at the time, but I didn't have problems. And I didn't notice any of my patrol mates having problems either. If memory serves, the model PLC used the actual SMF troop PLs with the rest of us watching. But I may be getting confused with BA22 and JLTC. But I agree 100%, training needs to focus more on interaction with Scouts through mentoring and counseling. That was a skill set, counseling PLs while being SPL or JASM, with both BA 22 and JLTC, was very applicable as an adult.

Today's Scouting is not the same program as it use to be. The Cub Scout Program was completely revamped in 2015, with a revision of those requirements in December 2016 . My then Webelos 2 said they "watered down requirements" because they made things easier to earn. Thankfully the pack decided to ignore the 2016 changes until June 2017 because the "immediate" changes were major enough to cause advancement delays, as well as force the pack to change their programming. And they have changed the program a few more times since 2017, with the latest being Webelos cannot begin transitioning to Scouts as that happens in 5th grade now. As for Scouts, the emphasis is on advancement, not fun, adventure, and growth.

Hard to really tell, but you are correct, something seems off.

@Eagle94-A1, I hope your experience with youth sports is the exception and not the norm. Anecdotally, I'll share ours has been mainly positive. There has been no directive to attend 100% of practices, games, camps, etc. Rather, it's pretty obvious (to me and to my 3rd grader) which kids puts in the work and which don't. His school team practices 2x per week from November through mid-March. The more-skilled kids also attend private small group training at a local for-profit facility, hit the YMCA with their dad on the weekend, and take an occasional private lesson. A kid's skill level at this age is highly correlated with the amount of extra work they put in outside of the normal practice schedule (and their parents' income 😛). Of my son's two main activities, he's observed that hard work in basketball comes with improved skill, admiration from peers, and cool looking gear, while hard work in Cub Scouts comes with virtually no added benefits because everyone gets the same awards anyway. You might occasionally see for-profit operators put undue pressure on kids and families to commit to a sport, but I bet most high school coaches in large suburban districts don't care because their talent pool is so rich. Any coach worth their salt is going to make reasonable exceptions for their players, but if a kid isn't putting in the work, it will eventually show in their performance. I'm still a big advocate of Scouting. The fact that it's so different from youth sports is (mostly) a good thing. I hope my son sticks with them both, but right now youth basketball is better at meeting his needs and interests.

That is part of the problem. Sports tend to want your entire life to revolve around the sport, and nothing else. Or there will be consequences. I still remember when the martial arts dojo sprang a last minute weekend seminar with 4 days notice. Happened to be the same weekend an aunt from out of town was visiting. The owners expected my kids to attend the last minute weekend seminar instead of the activities we had planned with their aunt. The next session after the weekend seminar, all those who didn't attend were chewed out. And when it came time to spar, those who attended were being encouraged to beat the crap out of those who didn't attend. When I talk to parents of kids involved in sports, all I hear is how their lives are completely turned around and focused on that sport: school team, travel leagues, camps, workshops, etc. Scouting doesn't have that mentality. I think some folks want the low advancement standards so their child can get eagle and move on to focus on sports.

Training sucks. There is no denying it. Standards have dropped to the point they are almost nonexistant, and if you try to keep some, you are told you are gatekeeping or adding to requirements. Folks with knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience are being told they don't know what they are doing, they need to quit, etc. they are getting fed up and quitting. As far as professionals go, very, very few have what it takes to run programs. Most are just out of college and trying to pay off loans. more later.

Scoutldr cmon….how else can scouts “get” all the MBs by 14?