Leaderboard

And there in lies the problem. Get out and do. Way to much focus on classroom merit badges, class instruction, checking boxes, adult leaders preventing experiential learning. How many times have we seen discussions on how to game the system so a Scout can get 20 nights camping? The goal should be to go out and do things, not just meet a metric. 20 nights should be simple to attain, and the Scout will learn volumes along the way. We were looking at what an AOL needs to do in order to earn arrow of light now, apparently camp with a BSA troop is no longer a thing, visit yes, but they can camp with their patrol. But, looking at the "Adventures" the first multiple pages is about safety considerations; food allergies anaphylaxis and epi-pens, behavior around campfires, etc etc etc. No doubt all good things, but this "safety moment" (and it's more than a moment) is front and center for every Adventure. Safety is important, but that cannot be our reason for being. To a parent new to the program, is this the right "Go to Market" thinking? Then they move into a BSA Troop, and "GASP!!!", the youth do stuff on their own!!. Scouts is OUTSIDE and doing stuff. The leadership training should be a less formal item and more something they experience and grow from. They will screw up, we as adult leaders can assist in making the course correction. The simplicity of the Troop program is that a 12 year old whom ignores advice and input and gets wet when their tent leaks or sleeps cold when they did not bring the recommended gear LEARNS A LESSON from THEIR actions. They hopefully realize they need to do better. Later, maybe as they go off to college or first job, they can recall that all advice is not bad. They can help themselves be better.

I think you guys are being a bit naive on this one. If there's one thing I've learned about the scouting program it's that motivating scouts about character only works on those that essentially already get it. If a scout doesn't want to be bothered about character then it's a really hard slog. So either the parents believe that character is important or, on occasion, a scout's parents are bad enough that the scout sees a need for good character. But that's not to say that there aren't lots of scouts or their parents that want to get Eagle. And there lies a big problem. Absolutely vanity is preventing improvement. But greed is oh so much worse. If you really want to improve program quality then remove the biggest source of greed, rank advancement. Be a scout because you believe in the ideals, not that you're going to get a better job. I got so tired of listening to scouts that, when asked why they were in scouts, said first that they were going to get a better job or into a better university or it would make their resume look better. It used to be very rare when they said that. It always used to be about fun, friends and the outdoors. But it has changed. I was shocked the first time I heard something about payback. The last time I asked a group of scouts why they were in scouts it was close to half that said they were going to get something from earning a badge. Maybe it's my town that has changed but I doubt it. TikTok, likes, influencers, search algorithms ... our lexicon has changed to that of greed and dopamine hits. This program used to work because most of the volunteers really believed in the fundamentals. They believed in it so much that they wanted to make it work. Quality would have been an easy sell then. But that has eroded over time. There are still people that believe in the the ideals but there needs to be a critical mass of those people in order for a unit to deliver a good program, where the idea of improving quality is even viable. My guess is that most units feel they're delivering a quality program if some kids are getting Eagle patches. And it makes sense because that's how the program is sold. Character is what you do when nobody is looking. It's not rank. It's not NESA. It's not OA. It's not a MB sash. It's not data in a database. It's what you do with your patrol when no adults are around. So, the first thing to do to make a quality program is to focus on a program with character and remove all the other distractions. Eagle is the biggest distraction. This reminds me of the Woodbadge game Win All You Can. Eagle is just goading people to do bad things. But they never come out and say it. It used to be that it was a method and could be used to develop character but that script has flipped. But that will never happen.

#1 Game systems and internet growth #2 Burnout by expanding to younger and younger ages. #3 Lack of perceived rich and rewarding program; whether caused by burnout or too much focus on leadership or just plan lack of focus on fun and adventure. Now, those 1990s kids are having kids and deciding there are better ways for their own kids to spend time. IMHO, little of the membership drop is about policies. It's about product and perception of the product.

Is it "Good Enough" ? Worksheets for Merit Badges.... Texting LOL, LMAO, letters not written, knots that don't hold, "like", "hacks" that have nothing to do with axes or hatchets or cheap taxis or lousy attorneys,,, Believe what I say despite what you see, "You mean I CAN make that decision?", "What if everybody acted like that, eh?" Well, I was only joking, I didn't really MEAN that, it's just a manner of speaking, it's what everybody says.... History is what we agree on, not what we have proof of.... Oh, I'll never use that silly knot... "Oh, I have people to take care of that." We can pay for that , no need to do it ourselves. It's easier to use paper plates and plastic stuff.... Well, the other Merit Badge Counselor let me... "Was THAT good enough?" Can't we get an extension for my boy? He's only late by a few days.... I can't take off work for this, isn't there someone else that can lead this hike/meeting/training/show and sell? What are we paying these dues for, anyway? I want my kid to be a Scout, it will get him a higher rating when he joins the military/applies for college/trains for the Olympics/fills out the application for (fill in the blank)....

Agreed. Quality control is a major issue. ... Scouting is like ordering a McDonalds Quarter Pounder and having equal odds of getting chicken nuggets, a taco or dog food. Units have such different personalities and habits. Leaders are even more varied. When the scouting magic is there, it's a wonderful experience. It's easy to miss out on that magic though.

I am starting to believe that the #1 problem is quality control. So many bad units run by bad leaders. How many kids join, have a horrible experience, quit, and never come back?

And so our history becomes stories for our children. If it is OUR history, tell it so it can become THEIR history. I made it a point to take Scoutson to the grandmother's farm site, which is now mostly a subdivision, and we found the original culvert that was under the driveway, it was still there, but the driveway had gone back to nature (!) into the backyards of the houses....

I just finished listening to the 3Hr audio of the hearing. The supporters had some really good attorneys. The attorneys appealing this represented themselves....and you know that old saying about representing oneself and having a fool for a client. But who knows. I will say this. The Judges did seem to be concerned about the Purdue issues but repeatedly came back to the impact this would have if it were undone. But what was really striking was Evan Smola of Hurley Law who spoke toward the end, at the 2:27 mark. He isn't my attorney but if he's yours you should be proud. He put a VERY important human face on this and reminded the court that Survivors are dying. His clients have left him with instructions that if they die they do NOT want family to know. So, for them their claim died with them. Thus far, his firm represents 5% of the total claims, and 250 of their clients have passed away. If you do the math, that extrapolates out to 5,000 total deaths if his number is representative. The story of all of this is yet to be told but the number of Survivors who never made it to the end must be known. Thank you Mr. Smola.

Yes, another plan can be filed. The bankruptcy portion of the profession is pivoting quickly in light of Purdue. So, new plans are allowing claimants to "Not opt in" to a release and preserve their rights to sue a third-party. Sound like a good idea? Well, consider this. If your attorney did NOT file a suit in State court against a Charter Org or Council, and the "window" has closed, you're screwed because the bankruptcy didn't "toll" your rights against any third party. But let's say they did. Then you'd better hope you have a good attorney because most are NOT prepared to take dozens or hundreds or thousands of cases to trial in a timely manner. Another issue is who you will be fighting, the insurers. They are MASTERS at stalling so there's 3-5 years of your life. One more reality, the third parties (charter orgs primarily) are NOT bottomless pits of money. So, again, you'd better hope that your attorney is good and you're the first one they have in line before all their other clients. If big judgements come in to the first group of Survivors that get to trial they could wipe out all the available funds, insurance included. Then, the third party goes into bankruptcy, the insurance companies say "We've already paid out to the limits of our policies" and you're left fighting over scraps. I hate to sound negative, but Scouting does not have to go into liquidation, they can refile a new plan and still allow Councils and other parties to participate. You could then go it alone, but the risk could be greater and reward much less. I know a lot of people will read this and say "I'm not getting anything now, I'll take my chances." Of course. I get that. But reality must really be considered. Going it alone could be years, with a potential dead-end if the party you sue goes into bankruptcy itself and you're back where you started, and if you get your day in court, how long will that be and what will be left to fight over? The light at the end of the tunnel if this plan is overturned and Scouting does cast its Councils adrift, well, with all that's now known Councils in "good SOL States" will be motivated to pre-package a bankruptcy plan to get it over with quickly. Its happened in Catholic Diocese cases. But again, hovering over that are our good friends the Insurance attorneys. To them, time is money and the longer they can prevent us all from getting it, the more they preserve their money and profits. None of this is pretty. It's a tragedy. A very complicated tragedy that if this plan blows up you'd better have an attorney who can give you the right advice.

I was the Dist Membership Chair between 1995 and 2000. National polled our opinions of the early Tiger program and what changes would improve the program. I was shocked to learn that the changes in 1999 were the opposite of the suggestions we provided. I ran the district meeting that announced the changes to the packs, and they were not received well. Two packs quit their Tiger program, and several others didn't add the changes. We learned later that National based their program changes from polls of Tiger parents. Not pack leaders. That also explains why National went to the much more expensive blue shirts from the much cheaper Tiger T-shirts. That was another big deal for young, busy parents who were deciding whether to join. Barry

I'm glad you'll welcome comments. Membership started steady decline after 1999. Gay youth were not openly admitted until after 2013. How do you explain those years? “Good riddance,” SmartyPants might say. But the straight kid’s smile is the same as the trans kid’s smile when he learns to swim. But the straight kid is not at camp. Momma said, “Sorry kiddo. We’re not doing that.” 1 - 9 = -8. Don’t erase boys. Apparently, your presumption is that gay youth are not "real boys". As a youth, my son was a Scout. My son is an Eagle Scout, Vigil Honor recipient, spent years on camp staff, spent years as NYLT staff, Lodge officer, served stints as Den Chief, Quartermaster, Scribe, ASPL, and SPL for his troop. My son is also bi-sexual. He never hid that, it was never an issue that he felt was a necessary topic within Scouting and felt the same for anyone who is straight/gay/bi. That is who he is, and he who he has always been. Period. I would say your "smiles at the waterfront", while holding a bigoted view of those youth when you are away from the waterfront is far more of a problem than someone like my son having been a part of the BSA.

This plan ain't gonna be shot down.

In our district, we tend to see two kinds of units - larger units of 30+ scouts and smaller units of 15 or less scouts. The larger packs and troops have a deeper adult team that is supporting a wider array of activities. They routinely bring in 6 or more new scouts every year. They're active in the OA, participate in camporee, their leaders often jump over and help with district wide trainings and events. The smaller packs and troops have a small core team of leaders and don't recruit much. They tend to hang on year to year, but they don't tend to see a lot of new members. We rarely see them. Packs need a lot of adults period - 2 adults per den of 6-8 cubs. Another 4-8 adults providing pack level support - CC, CM, 2x Asst. CM, membership, treasurer, fundraising, advancement chair, and so on. Troops are a bit different. From a working directly with the Scouts perspective, yes troops do need fewer ASMs that help week to week. But they need a supporting group of ASMs to attend weekend trips. A monthly trip is a big ask for anyone and a supporting group of ASMs can really lighten that load. Another area where adults help is troop operations - troops need even more adult operations support than packs. Eagle projects, boards of review, merit badge, more fundraising, specialty skills, and so on. I think the reason we see two general size groups is that units with good programs that recruit adults to help with operations tend to grow. Units with good programs that don't recruit adults to help, end up with overburdened program leaders. There are of course exceptions - some small units simply want to be small. These units are not that common around here.

If the unit commissioner isn't working, it's the DE's fault. I have seen districts with great Commission Corp, and it's a beautiful thing to watch. However, the DC's job is complicated and requires above-average skills and training. Most districts don't recruit people capable of developing and using those skills. Yep. In the earlier days, before 1990, 80% of unit leaders were scouts as a youth. So, they walked knowing more about the game than the purpose. They basically stepped into the position running, and the implementation wasn't overly complex. Today's unit is lucky to have 25% leaders with a youth scouting experience. Training just doesn't meet the need for new adult leaders without a youth scouting experience. It's not so simple. Learning the skills on your list, much less knowing when to use them, takes a long time. One-year first-class scouts are typically terrible with skills. Mostly because a program that encourages earning First Class in one year isn't a good skills program anyway. I've trained and counseled a lot of scoutmasters without a youth scouting experience, and most quit in a couple of years, realizing they were not right for the job. However, I believe they would have been fine if they had been willing to delegate skills they lacked to others. I had the skills but rarely needed them because I was a delegator and liked to get other people involved. And, there are very few skills adults need to know that older scouts can't do themselves. But, in almost every case of the scoutmasters I counseled, the scoutmaster took on the responsibility because they wanted to be head honcho, and the responsibilities didn't look hard. Their ego was the problem. The program has a big challenge today because most of the leaders they get today don't have an understanding of the program from youth experience, so they see it from a different perspective. Typically, it is not a perspective that is fun for the youth. Also, the program has changed in the last few years, so its newer identity is not attractive to the last generation of scouts. My 37- and 40-year-old sons aren't interested in being leaders because what they see doesn't appear like the program they had in the late 90s. Barry

Maybe, most the strongest units in my area have some sort of relationship with a church that provides large amounts of space for storage and program use. There is definitely something that strengthens units when they say "We meet every week on Wednesday night at 7PM unless it's a major holiday like Christmas".

"The friends of" is the chartering org, it is not the unit itself. As a separate legal entity it may do its own fundraising just like any other CO.

A Maine scout's memories: His scoutmaster and assistant scoutmasters "never cared much for the achievement of badges, and focused far more on the experiences, and the hands on skills we learned." His scoutmaster's "barn* was a cabinet-making shop, and we were all introduced to the beauty of fine woodworking. The project that holds the most significance to me was the time he had each of us create a milking stool, cutting out the pieces, sanding and staining. The stool I made still resides in my mother’ living room." "An especially memorable camping trip found us on Warren Island State Park, just off Islesboro, and the activity leading up to it that had us all make our own slingshots for a competition on the camp-out...Needless to say, the giant paper wasp nest that hung high in the trees above our tent site became the preferred target for a bunch of rowdy boys with homemade slingshots." * Note: The barn was also a microbrewery. Will the old scoutmaster's uniform still fit? See source. IMKO, Scouting is a place that builds character by associating with characters. Adult Method. Source: This week in Lincolnville (Maine): Troop 224 10/27/2024 https://www.pennlive.com/nation-world/2024/10/these-cooking-items-in-your-home-are-linked-to-cancer-causing-chemicals.html

11/6/2024, Alexandra Jones reporting from today's hearing: https://www.courthousenews.com/sex-abuse-victims-fight-to-thwart-boy-scouts-2-4-billion-bankruptcy-payout-plan/

Yep, National made major changes to the Tiger program in 1999, switching from 2 meetings a month to 4 meetings and requiring an adult to attend all activities with each Tiger scout. The Cub program was already overburdened, but those changes added insult to injury and made it less desirable to busy parents. The drop was predictable, as was the sudden drop of Troops four years later that resulted from the decline of the Cub program. If I remember right, membership had been dropping in the early 1990s until the war in Iraq. The sudden boost of patriotism seemed to motivate temporary growth in the BSA. Barry

@skeptic Thank you. I cut and pasted from an OldGreyEagle 2008 post as this may be easier to read ~RS Ladies and Gentlemen. I have been asked to explain to you what the Boy Scout movement is. It is a tall order to compress into three minutes the ideals that are being followed by over a million and a half of boys. The movement primarily is a brotherhood of service of boys and men. Its school of character of citizenship, of personal efficiency for the good of the community. This sounds high-falootin. For what is as we know it, a band of bare-kneed rascals, with cowboy hats and staves in their hands. But remember, you cannot give them character through ordinary classroom methods. You have to use other means. The boys are eager to join in a jolly game of fellowship, with its Healthy camp life and handy pioneer training. Their moral character is developed by our method of self government under a code of chivalry in the Scout law. Their spiritual character is developed by their being brought face to face with the wonders and beauties of nature. The boy is naturally active, rather than passive in temperament, and we give him opportunities of performance rather than of profession. Scouts make themselves efficient not merely for their own good but in order to be helpful to the community. In other words, they train to be good citizens. Character is far more essential to a successful career of a man. Character in its individual members is essential for the character of the nation. And character in the nation is similarly essential to its welfare. As a school of character therefore, the Scout movement is non-military, non-sectarian, non-political and non-class. On these lines the movement has come in the space of twelve years to be adopted by every civilized country. The brotherhood spirit has thus grown up automatically. It is forming a personal tie not only between the states of the British Commonwealth, but also between the different foreign counties, it may just supply that soul which is needed to make the form of the League of Nations a living force, such as will render war impossible in the future. The movement is growing every day in size and in effect. All we want are more men in this great brotherhood of service to do this joyous work for God, their country, and the boys. The work, for all who try it can testify, is well worthwhile. - Baden Powell

Nov 6, 2024: US Court of Appeals for Third Circuit: Judge Cheryl Ann Krause, Judge Anthony J. Scirica, Judge Marjorie O. Rendell Source (check for updates): https://www2.ca3.uscourts.gov/OralArgSummariesLanding/CasesDetails.aspx?hrngDt=20241106

This plan won't be shot down.

Bird Banding Campout "On one recent weekend, 18 Scouts from BSA Troop 639 held a bird banding campout in northern Minnesota. The experience was a first for all involved, and made possible by one Scout’s grandfather, master bander and White Bear Lake resident Frank Taylor. Taylor greeted the troop at the banding site with the day’s first capture already in hand: a sharp-shinned hawk. He proceeded to tell all about that species’ physical features, diet and migration. He then enlisted the Scouts to help him record the bird’s measurements and information from its newly attached band. One fortunate Scout, Declan Johnson, was chosen to release it back onto its journey south. As he worked, Taylor showed the Scouts his equipment, talked about the banding process and shared more about raptors and their migration through northwestern Minnesota. He explained that since the vast water of Lake Superior doesn’t produce the warm air thermals the birds need to make their long migrations, they are funneled down the North Shore. As a result, they pass his banding station—and Duluth’s famous Hawk Ridge—in large numbers each fall." ( Read link) Scout Owen Tollefson remarked “It was just so cool. I felt like I wouldn’t have an experience like this, probably never in my life again.” What a great program idea. Scout salute. Much more (including photos) at sources: https://www.presspubs.com/white_bear/news/white-bear-lake-master-bird-bander-widens-scouts-outdoor-world/article_ef7e8408-9678-11ef-851b-87c14a58c2b1.html North Shore Banding - Frank Taylor https://bandingreports.blogspot.com/

I don't follow. Can you elaborate?

There are approximately 300 survivors, and I am one of them, who paid $10k-$20k, to the trust to have our claims settled through the IRO. That's $6,000,000.00 that needs to be refunded back to us if the plan is not confirmed. This doesn't even include the expense of obtaining an Expert Report required for the IRO. Probably a few million dollars more too. Then there is Discovery which isn't free either. The worst part is those of us who have gone through the 6-hour deposition and/or IRO hearing with the un-settled insurance carriers. My depo went almost the full 6 hours, and my attorneys said their other client's depos are taking just as long. I had to sit there and recount in graphic detail describing the sexual abuse, how long it lasted, when was the 1st time, etc. Yes, the insurance carriers are requiring explicit details about the sexual abuse. I suffered panic and anxiety attacks for more than a week after the depo. Day and night. I had to bring back memories that I had since buried and thought I would never have to recount again to another human being. I felt so ashamed and guilty that I called my attorney back after the weekend. The look and the facial expressions on the court reporter said it all. I wanted to apologize to her for having to sit through and listen to my ordeal. That's no walk in the park for any of us. Potentially un-winding this plan to try to add more zeros behind a check isn't going to make what happened any more palatable or bring additional closure. We will live with these awful memories and the fallout for the rest of our lives. I voted "No" on the plan because I didn't like my sponsoring organization getting a free ride on the coattails of the BSA bankruptcy. But after 4 years in this bankruptcy and going through this much re-living of trauma, I want it over. My wife, kids and family want it over too. They have witnessed and experienced 1st hand the toll this taken on me. I dare say the same is true for the other survivors. The American Civil War lasted from 1861 - 1865. We are now exceeding that threshold. How much more blood needs to be spilled? Yes, the blood of those survivors who passed away due to age, health or their own hands.

"At the end of September, members of Poindextor explorer scout group took part in ‘Sky Camp’, a competition where they had to build, sleep and cook food on a platform constructed in the trees. Taking place in the woods at Paccar Scout Camp, the platforms had to be constructed from materials such as wooden poles, ropes, nets and tarpaulins. Participants slept in hammocks, which were suspended between the trees. Every team competing had to have a theme, as well as food and a menu for the weekend...." More at Source including photo: https://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/young-reporter/24678266.northwood-explorer-scouts-sky-camp-2024/

It would be nice to return to the days when there were at least some independent, ethical journalists and media outlets that attempted to remain objective. As far as young reporters, while traditional print media has mostly disappeared, there are other potential arenas for scouts to try. Township and county newsletters, news services, and websites; middle school and high school morning news shows; chamber of commerce, tourism, environmental and community lifestyle publications or even social media pages are all places to pitch an article or a post about a scout event or activity of note. It doesn't have to be traditional or mainstream print media.

An impressive, well-considered Eagle project, Scout Salute. Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/montevideo-boy-scout-dog-park/

As the many months of this whole process have laid bare, there are many counter-intuitive results. National and insurance companies escaping largely unscathed, while the "totally independent" local councils, say what, "volunteer" to a council, to pay the bulk of National's debt. With respect to attorney's fees, another contra-intuitive result obtains: attorney's fees are the result of a private agreement between client and attorney and not part of the bankruptcy proceeding, per se. I am not a bankruptcy practitioner, much less an expert, but I recall a local bankruptcy judge mandating maximum fees for individual bankruptcies. But that was many years ago. If bankruptcy judges have the authority to limit attorney's fees, either the judges are not inclined to do so on their own initiative, or no one has filed a Petition/Motion and asked the judge to consider the issue. Being an attorney (I am hoping for a better outcome in the next life) under the circumstances, 40% is obscene. Just my $250,000,000.00 worth.

Building confidence to overcome anxiety SAVEs another ... Nine-year-old James, who struggles with anxiety, says his recent training in Boy Scouts allowed him to overcome his fear in the moment, call 911, and save his mother's life. “I wanted to join because we have been camping and fishing and doing a bunch of cart racing stuff, and it's a lot of stuff that I like.” After quitting Scouts several times, James decided to come back, and it was at the right time when he learned a life-saving technique just weeks before he would use it. “We practiced calling 911, and they would give us scenarios, and we would kind of say what we would do if that actually happened. Then, a couple of weeks later, my mom had the allergic reaction, so I kind of knew what to do.” And he did. Both James and his Mom are ok. Scout salute, More at source: https://www.cnycentral.com/news/local/nine-year-old-overcomes-anxiety-to-save-mothers-life-with-skills-learned-in-cub-scouts

1. BSA NATIONAL LIQUIDATES and/ or 2. Insurance companies pony up a LOT more $$$ to liquidation trustee 3 LC’s Liquidate and/or see 2 above . 4. Charter orgs voluntarily liquidate or file Ch 11. also See 2 above. 4. Some survivors carry on with litigation including bad faith claims against insurance companies. 5. More states open or reopen windows to allow more survivors a path to just compensation. See 2 above. 6. Scouting becomes a verb again, not a brand name Many regional and local scouting organizations form and compete with each other to develop the safest system, best and lower cost scouting experience not having to carry the corrupt dead weight of the bureaucracy. Scouting discovers its roots again.

Too few adults, and resulting drop in expectations resulting by BSA are not a good combo. Not that many years ago, it was a requirement that at least one adult leader on a Scouts BSA overnight outing had to be IOLS trained. That is no longer the case (why the requirement that there had to be someone BALOO trained for Cubs, and not any requirement in Scouts BSA, IDK). IOLS can be run poorly, but by and large in my experiences those who staffed the trainings I was involved in knew what we were doing (at least within a certain skillset- I was usually woods tools and knots myself), and were dedicated to make it as fun and informative as we could, while emphasizing the real objective was to demonstrate the Patrol Method. I'd love to see some reports from a national level on just how many units don't have someone who has been IOLS trained. If you have units rolling with adult leaders who don't truly get the program, it's a big ask to who may have been the only willing volunteer to be a Commissioner and expect that person is going to impart anything onto that adult. Most of the Commissioners, whether they be Council, District, or Unit that I have interacted with in the last decade+ have been retirement age, long since been active to a unit, and often have been pressed into it. The results often were mixed, especially in light of the later part.

Although I was a Boy Scout myself, my son is still in Cubs and my perspective these days is more from a Cub parent. We're fortunate to have a good group of parents running our Pack; however, there are many instances where I would go about things differently than other leaders (but settle for good enough). I understand the calculus changes a bit with Scout Troops. For now, the work is getting done and the kids are having fun, getting outside, exercising, socializing, etc. I'm not going nitpick my fellow volunteers. I'm just thankful for the support we do receive.

Yes, my delegating comment was for the program 25 or 30 years ago when there were still many experienced Scouters. My point about the adults in today's scouts program is a different situation. I'm pretty creative when looking for solutions, but this one is a challenge. The program now, whatever it's called (part of the problem), needs big changes in identity and training. Barry

Yeah, we could do a wiki and generate most of the materials coming out of National. Including the Scout Handbook.

I've gotten into the weeds of what publicly is disclosed on council revenue sources and there is nothing going from national to councils. Councils are just as much a franchisee as units are.

Agreed! And I think we would do better if we set the expectation that adults will learn Scout skills as well. Most adults I know cannot tie the seven basic knots in the Scout Handbook (much less do any lashing), use a map and compass to find their way, sleep outside in less than 40 degree weather, go backpacking, or, more generally, know most of the things in the Scout Handbook that Scouts have to know (or know what "right" looks like). And they are afraid to admit it and then go learn. What happened to Be, Know, Do?

This definitely ranks up there with the top problems, but what are you doing to do? As much as we claim Scouting is a youth-driven program, we all know it's parent-driven. A program is only going to go as far as volunteers are willing to take it. As a Den Leader, I spend lots of invisible hours and dollars (my own money) to help the Pack. And I'm just one guy - we're fortunate to have a good group of parents that help with our program (but it can be exhausting). One of the reasons why travel sports have grown in popularity vs. Scouting is that they are less work for most parents. Sure, they cost 4x as much as Scouting, but I get to just show up and be a dad.

I think it really started well before that. There's a peak around 1973, just about when I joined, and then there's another, smaller peak, around 1990. The first peak probably corresponds to the baby boom kids being old enough to be in scouts. That second peak is likely from the children of those in the first peak.

But this plan has barely been implemented. Time was wasted but that is irrelevant. Most of the money hasn’t been transferred to the trust and only a tiny fraction 1.5% has been paid out. The test is “substantial consummation.” This is nowhere near that. The court can pinch its nose and rubber stamp it but that only invites an endless parade of other mass tort manipulations they have to deal with down the road. I watched these judges and have studied their past rulings. These cats aren’t rubber stampers.

Here's a link to the audio file of today's hearing: https://www2.ca3.uscourts.gov/oralargument/audio/23-1664InReBoyScoutsofAmerica.mp3

@Runningwolf I read your vent with an open mind. I understand that there are parents who will choose whether their child participates in scouts (or not). The choice of parents however is not equivalent to BSA being exclusionary.

Yes - but appears to be due to views on sexuality - not due to youth protection liability issues.

GSA turn…I just saw the Archbishop of Cincinnati has dropped them from the diocese.

I strongly suspect there are many others that are innocent. The unfortunate thing is that it costs a tremendous amount of money to pursue any kind of lawsuit against anyone. Most people simply do not have the money. The scout program is completely uninterested in serving justice. They figure it is quicker to just throw out everyone and walk away. I know of another situation where the scout executive revoked membership of a person after a shoddy investigation. The same executive has said to multiple people that he has no evidence to support various claims but still revoked the membership of the person. Same executive committed some criminal activity to get the person out but continues to serve. Bad deal all around.

Read this Krause opinion and tell me you can’t see where this is headed. Plan is likely going south. https://casetext.com/case/in-re-one2one-commcns-llc

Judge Krauss is the presiding judge on the panel!! We who are rooting that the court reverses this horribly rotten Plan could not have drawn a better judge in the whole country! She’s the biggest opponent of equitable mootness there is. She wants to abolish the doctrine. Oral arguments Nov 6. 3rd Circuit US Court of Appeals. Philadelphia 10:00 am.

10/9/2024: Like Scouting UK Dwayne Fields, our new Recruiting Ambassador David Montgomery's Scouting experience helped him through a difficult childhood. From wiki David Montgomery , Eagle Scout and Detroit Lions running back: Montgomery had a difficult childhood. He does not know his father, and his mother moved the family numerous times around Cincinnati due to economic hardship. He remembers using the oven for heat, and boiling water collected from gas stations in the bath tub when either was disconnected. He has a brother who was incarcerated for drug trafficking and murder. After scoring a touchdown, Montgomery frequently holds up a "V"-sign in memory of a high school teammate and role model who was murdered during a home invasion.[69] While he was with Iowa State, Montgomery was chosen as a semi-finalist for the Jason Witten Collegiate Man of the Year Award for his efforts in befriending Hunter Erb, a 6-year-old who was born with multiple congenital heart defects, and orchestrating a team visit to Marshalltown, Iowa to help clean up after a tornado. Scout Salute, Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Montgomery_(American_football)#2018_season

100% dead on correct. Outdoor adventures sells itself. Leadership is boring and can be gotten many, many, many other ways. Scouting flounders when explicitly teaching leadership. Very few people can teach "leadership"; virtually zero scout leaders. Perhaps, if BSA sells itself on teaching leadership, the chief scout should be Tony Robbins or the next Stephen Covey. On the flip side, scout leaders are really good at teaching the outdoor skills and enabling campouts and adventures. And, by being outdoors, you learn leadership and fellowship and and responsibility and helping each other. But, don't market based on that. Market adventure and outdoors.