Leaderboard

I too used to, stress USED TO, do that. But was informed that unless the requirement specifically states you cannot use an activity for more than one requirement, you gotta accept it. I am waiting for the duel enrolled Girl Scout/Scouting America Scout to do one project for both their Gold Award and Eagle.

I had a pretty traditional Scouting experience that culminated in earning the Eagle Scout award after I had a lot of fun and finally got around to the paperwork. One of my best my friends could be described as a "Paper Eagle." He made it through the program with very little camping and had everything wrapped up by high school so he could focus more on academics. Today, he's a professor at a prestigious university and travels the world to present his research. He is absolutely someone we'd want to represent the program. Scouting just means different things to different people and we all have to be OK with that for the BSA to survive.

“Boy Scouts lets him be a kid.” At his pack's annual Blue and Gold Banquet, nine-year-old Cameron Echols received a wooden axe for his bravery in fighting his cancer. The axe had inscriptions ‘A Scout is Brave’ with Cameron’s name and the scripture Joshua 1:9 — “Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God is with you.” "Cameron was diagnosed with a brain tumor last year, a myeloblastoma, near his cerebellum in his brain that was blocking fluid from going to the rest of his body. A surgery was performed that removed most of the tumor, but to get the rest they used radiation that he went through up until last December. Cameron is still going through chemotherapy and will continue that up until this fall with the hope he is done sometime in September or October. In the meantime, scouting has given the young boy a true outlet to feel like a normal kid for a bit and get away from everything he is enduring." More at source (text with audio): https://www.clantonadvertiser.com/2025/03/26/echols-fighting-cancer-with-family-scouts-support-behind-him/

@Eagle94-A1 is right. For advancement, read BSA/SA Guide To Advancement. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf Section 4.2.3.6 Fulfilling More Than One Requirement With a Single Activity "At times it may be appropriate for a Scout to apply what was done to meet one requirement toward the completion of another." Your situation is also explicitly answered. "Some requirements may have the appearance of aligning, but upon further examination differ. These seemingly similar requirements usually have nuances intended to create quite different experiences. The Communication and Citizenship in the Community merit badges are a good example. Each requires the Scout to attend a public meeting, but that is where the similarity ends. For Communication, the Scout is asked to practice active listening skills during the meeting and present an objective report that includes all points of view. For Citizenship in the Community, the Scout is asked to examine differences in opinions and then to defend one side. The Scout may attend the same public meeting, but to pass the requirements for both merit badges the Scout must actively listen and prepare a report, and also examine differences in opinion and defend one side."

The argument around this sort of thing is odd. The standard is the standard. 21 MB, so many camping nights, pass the swim test, etc ... right? This is sort of a like the old school adage that A's may pay, but C's get degrees. For the scout that goes above and beyond, fantastic, but it does not redefine the standard. The kid that does just the standard is just as much an eagle scout as any other eagle scout.

My understanding is that there is always a delay between administrations. If there is an issue with Trump's approval, perhaps this is a good opportunity to move away from the President of the US as the honorary President of Scouting America and have someone else serve in that role. David Montgomery? Mike Rowe? I'm not sure if there is an issue, but it would be interesting to see someone who is actually a former scout and exemplifies scouting ideals as the honorary president vs politicians.

This is from a FB post...

Motorboating and Water Skiing merit badges have been around for a long time. They are part of the program because in many parts of the country they are things that kids *do* experience, and nation benefits from them learning to do it safely. But when a camp program tries to be all things to all people with limited staff, the aquatics director needs to dig heels in and limit the programs offered.

I LOVED Scouting as a youth and always figured I'd be a hands-on parent / leader - attending Roundtables, serving on committees, staffing district events, etc. I'm happy to be a Den Leader as long as my son and his friends are having fun. If he decides to continue with Scouts, I'll support the Troop, but don't have the enthusiasm I once had. I think the change comes down to three things: Scouting is in a death loop and I can feel it. Look no further than this message board. I used to lurk here 10 years ago and it felt like there was double the amount of activity (mods, can you confirm?). As a youth, I met a lot of neat people through Scouting. I always figured I'd see those people on the trail with their own kids, but many have either moved away from my mid-size city or don't have kids in the program. I'm terrified of liability and have no desire to attend overnight events with some of the poorly behaved kids in our Pack (even though most of the kids and families are great). My son loves basketball. Our town has recently won state championships in basketball, baseball, and hockey. These programs are pillars of our community. It's very different than when I was a kid and we played organized sports 1x per week at the YMCA. As for my local council, I know they have their challenges, but I've received sufficient support since re-joining as an adult. I even have a text chain with my DE. He's very responsive and makes me feel valued. I can only imagine how some of you feel when you're not getting ample support from your local professionals.

The best benefit a scout could have is lots of buddies being able to afford to join the troop. We’d use windfalls like this to offset registration or camp fees. You could even recognize that a particular weekend was thanks to the efforts of the family and their corporate matching program.

Programs like this are indeed legit. Do not contact anyone at council until you thoroughly understand all the info below. OK, going through your post item by item... "We have a scenario right now where a registered parent of a scout has donated money (say $500) through a company's Charitable Matching program they have. It's a big banking company and the program is legit. They expected the money to be matched, then when the company matched it and sent a check through our chartered church to our troop as a $1000 (for example)." Let's verify who the actual donees are first. To whom did the parents write their check? Was the check made out to Troop X or some other recipient? To whom did the Company make out their portion, AND, to which Employer Identification Number (EIN) did they credit the donation? (This info should be on their check or the check stub (or some accompanying letter.) These company programs may only make the donations to a legitimate 501 c (3) charity, and each charity has an IRS assigned EIN. You can try to find the EIN / Charitable Organization using this tool: https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/ Make sure the EIN matches the CO name. Now, if the Bank put in the EIN for your local council, or the National council, then you have a problem. The money then technically belongs to the council, or whoever is listed by EIN on the check. [Your Troop is most likely not registered as a 501 c(3). It could be.] Let's assume for a second that everything is as it should be... that is, 1) Your unit is not a separate charitable org. 2) the parent check was written to Troop X, and 3) the bank check indicates the EIN for your CO. If these are true, then that money technically belongs to the CO. Did you or anyone inform/coordinate this donation with the CO? Does the Treasurer for the CO understand that this donation is to be used for the Troop? There are other details involved with this, but let's leave it at that for the moment. What the parent proposes, giving the donation money solely for the use of their Scout, is ILLEGAL!!! Do not, under any circumstances do this. As @Tron points out, there is a principal the IRS looks at called Inurement (or private benefit) https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/inurement-private-benefit-charitable-organizations If your unit gives any of this donated money (either the check from the parent's or the matched bank donation, as the two amounts are "tied" together) to only that Scout, then you violate federal law, specifically the Internal Revenue Code passed by Congress. In doing so you also would place your CO's charitable organization status in jeopardy! One way you could use the money is to give each and every Scout an equal share of the total sum, and credit those in Scoutbook. But, even that could present problems if the amounts are large. The IRS has given NO specific guidance on this. So, if the equal share for each Scout was $25, no one would blink an eye at that. If the equal share for each Scout is $2500, then you are in troubled waters... Here are some related threads you might read to gain a more fulsome understanding. If you need more specificity on this, and you are not comfortable posting information here, you may DM me... Regards

This is not correct. Once money is donated to a unit is technically property of the unit. There are a lot of IRS rules that dance around scout accounts and if you give money back to the parent, even as a sub account/scout account line item in this nature you risk your charter organizations non-profit status due to the personal inurement regulations of the IRS.

You probably have three things working against you: 1. Memorabilia worth in dollars is cyclical, not linear. Councils have tended to over-produce patches. So there’s a glut. 2. People like me give old patches away to young scouts. We don’t care if you’d pay a grand for it. If you aren’t hiking and camping with us and we haven’t seen your Scout Spirit IRL, you ain’t getting it. 3. I personally invest time sharing my values to scouts. They grow up and become hard customers. (Just try selling anything to my adult children.) I’m sure others are like me. We work for smiles. If there’s an opportunity to put a smile on a face instead of a dollar in a pocket, I’m in.

This is allowed. It was brought up as an option for Cub Scouts units when I did BALOO, so I looked more into it. We did this on a campout this past fall. Stayed at a council camp and council provided archery range masters for us. Scouts loved it. Being at a council camp makes it a council event for G2SS purposes. Council also had kayaks at the camp, so was able to arrange for a day for Webelos and AOLs to go kayaking. I think these type of things makes Cub Scouting so much better.

For Tron, you do reference local policies. The lodge advisor term and dues paying parent is local. One dangerous situation is when the lodge chief and advisor are in the same household. It can be friction whether the conversation is from parent/youth or chief/advisor. You are correct on the 1year term on district/council positions, but no term limits by national. From a commissioner standpoint, a couple awards require 3yrs of a 5yr periods.

I am all for Scout accounts and even fund raising proceeds going into a scout account based on what they sold. What this family is saying? No, not ok. It is "over the line" for me.

@YinYan75 welcome to scouter.com

Back in the day, when I was trying to save the world, I sought the commissioners' help in identifying issues that were undermining the program, such as losing over 50% of Webelos before crossover (the National Average). The short story is not just NO, but..... If the commissioners could visit a unit once every two months to just observe casually what the Dens and patrols are doing, then they could report their observations to the District Commissioner (DC). If the DC identifies a trend, the district can then approach a solution, such as training. Of course, that approach requires identifying levels of performance and methods for working below minimum performance. If judging unit performance is not expressed correctly, then yes, observing units will appear to be overstepping. I've been there. But it can work. One DC friend ran the UC corps successfully in the largest district in Minnesota. He addressed problems quickly and with compassion. A good UC corps starts with a good DC. In my opinion, the DC is the most critical Key Three position. They require a big-picture understanding of the scouting program and how the units fit in the model. Then, they develop a district program to help unit leaders enhance their unit performance within that model. Most districts take the first person that says yes to the UC position, but more often than not, they aren't qualified. First, the district needs to find someone who is a good recruiter; it's a skill. They will find a qualified UC. Barry

Its interesting that you say that. Conflict of interest, I wouldn't be assigned to my troop but hoping it might free up others to do so. Currently being told to expect maybe 3 to 4 unit assignments 2 to 4 visits a year. Based on my in-troop experience and the little district observations, its going to take a lot more the 4 visits a year. Not relishing the idea of being the new kid in town in the wild-west district.

What's up with the delay in Eagle Certificates? If they are waiting for the president's signature, why not use the one form the previous term? And if it is a design issue, why were they not updated when the medals and patches were updated. Those have been available for some time now.

That is actually the best response and I apologize for bringing it in. Separating frustration from places it should be left from.

Also have a Nixon certificate. Sad to admit that at that point in my life I doubt I even knew who Stan Lee was! 😁

This is absolutely a factor. Just focusing on the recent trend (membership being roughly 1/3 of what it was 10 years ago), there just aren't many new collectors to replace the ones getting up there in age. I actually don't mind the stagnant prices. The limited collecting I do brings me joy and helps preserve Scouting history in my area. I've never sold a patch. I'm sure it varies by region, but I noticed an "explosion" in patches specifically designed to be collectible around 2000 (different borders, limited runs, etc.). I was away from Scouting from 2007-2022 (returning to be my son's den leader). Since I never experienced this era first-hand, the variations have little appeal to me.

My Eagle certificate is signed by Richard Nixon. I am just as proud of that as anyone. Let's leave politics out of this discussion. The POTUS is the POTUS.

Back in day, I received both my Eagle certificate and medal long after my Troop Court of Honor but that's another story. Anyway, when I finally received my certificate signed by President Nixon, I groaned to my Dad that I rather it had been signed by Stan Lee. My Dad was not amused.

One wonders with the membership loss trends, could you see the value of patches follow it. I don't mean recent trends, but the multi-decade trends. There used to be a patch dealer who had a page that did "industry year in review" over many years. I haven't seen it in a few, but that would be the way to see some real trends. Also, like baseball cards, once you get into the mid '80's, patches started to be made for the collector in mind vs. just being made and it becoming collectable.

I find it amusing that the stuff that cannot be easily made, i.e. patches and medals, have been done and out for a while, but the item that can be easily laser printed we are waiting on.

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters." Senator Alan K. Simpson (1931-2025) Scout Salute and Farewell

It has never come up to me in conversation, but why not ? BUGLE as the instrument in the MUSIC Merit Badge req.#1. and #4b........

council: your troop has paying members, well "nothing to see here"

Agreed. I think BSA was hoist by its own petard on this one. The focus of Summer Camp is, generally, the merit badge program. This is a mistake, because it turned the focus to Advancement. And then, to do it on the cheap, camps hire 15 & 16 year olds to teach MBs, when this inherently violates the "spirit" of what the MB program is about. (This is where you can go down the rabbit hole of the responsibilities of unit leaders and "actual" merit badge counselors as well...) Summer Camp is a "pay your fee, get your degree." operation. On the whole, we have a huge integrity problem when it comes to Summer Camps and the Merit Badge program. Parents, Scouts staffs, unit leaders, paid professionals, National... all complicit. This is one of our biggest "dirty little secrets." I used to work with Scouts after camp to go through their MBs and ask them how they completed the requirements. Many, many times, I got the answer "Oh, we didn't do that one." or "My counselor said we didn't have to do that." or some such response. After working with Scouts to correct, I filed quite a few of these: https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-800_WB.pdf Know what became of them? Nothing... ignored

One reason why my troop is still alive: we DO stuff. Except for 2 members, all of my Scouts transferred from other troops. And one of the 2 had brothers who transferred into the troop. Sad thing is this: it can be very, VERY (emphasis) discouraging for some Scouts who see the 'Paper Eagles" I cannot tell you how many times in the past few years I have seen Scouts discouraged and not want to earn Eagle, because of "paper Eagles." Sadly I have met too many folks that believe summer camp/ merit badge weekends/etc are "purchasing" MBs.

They know who the "academic" or "paper" Eagle Scouts are, too. "If the minimums weren't good enough, they wouldn't be the minimums." I do not like that way of doing business, but the world is full of folks who accept that currency.

They figure all of us that endured the ISP effort of the 70's have maybe forgotten. (We have not) Even as a youth we fully understood it was a fiasco. I got my Eagle (had to accelerate the process) under the "Old" requirements. On camp staff a few years later there were Old Eagles and New Eagles. Even though they camped and were actually on staff, there was still the pecking order. Scouts can easily read and understand requirements. They see that much of the advancement now is focused on classroom and less on experiential learning. Youth want action, not more school. Go and DO

Thank you. That was a nice video. I had to look up the membership numbers for myself: BLC membership has decreased from 22,600 in 2017 to 8,000 in 2023 (-65%). MCC membership has decreased from 57,000 in 2017 to 25,200 in 2023 (-56%). National membership has decreased from 2,167,800 in 2017 to 981,600 in 2023 (-65%). So while the MCC has lost fewer members on a relative basis, the BLC's situation appears no worse than what the rest of the country has experienced.

In the interview, based on info from former SE of Hiawathaland: - National forced them to merge as they believed small councils cannot succeed They joined Bay Lakes as it was in good shape Bay Lakes has been in decline since (membership & financials) They joined MCC Camp Hiawatha no longer in jeopardy due to scouting council realignment

My guess that if National funded councils 100% there would be a lot of DOGEing happening to reduce the number of councils. 😉

That is it 100% in our council. Waaay less Scouts and units, waaaaay more staff. There are districts that 40 years ago were massive, they broke those into 3 or 4 districts, overall same geography but far less scouts and 3 times the number of DE's. The structure is like IBM of the 70's, layer upon layer. DE reports to a senior DE who reports to a Field Director who reports to a Are Director who reports to some sort of Council Operations person who I think reports to the Deputy SE who then reports to the SE sorry CEO. The poor rangers at camp have like 5 professional from various levels / areas giving direction. Raise money and hire more people to raise money

Yep. That is basically what happened. It is my understanding they were cost neutral to the council. Not a drain. My guess was that someone was trying to simply Bay-Lakes to do another merger on the south side, but that doesn’t seem to be happening.

😬 I was terrified of the waterfront as a young scout because all of the counselors kept screaming at kids for simple things like switching seats in a rowboat or accidentally letting an old oar touch the ground. I'm surprised the BSA even allows motorboats - especially considering there are so many fun man-powered options that kids don't often get to experience (canoes, kayaks, row boats, pedal boats, inflatables, etc.).

In my council all of the donation haggling seems to be done by the DE's and BOD. Might be different in other councils. My council was a total burning ship 5ish years ago based on 990 numbers. I know my CE is good at getting donations in, but I don't think he's doing it himself, I think his method is work other people to work other people.

I have heard from inside sources, that 2 large factors in Scout Executive pay are fundraising results and size of staff they manage. This creates a perfect self-fulfilling prophecy. You have to hire more people to fundraise the money that you want. Then when you fundraise enough, you can hire even more people. Then those people can go fundraise even more which repeats the cycle. Unfortunately, this cycle will break down, it is just a question which link breaks first.

The bad thing is that in some areas the paid scouters are running out the volunteers because they question what is going on. By the time they get to the 50+ years old with their kids out of the unit level stuff, they have seen enough of the districts and councils to ask "why do we do this like this?" Many times it's not a slam, just an honest question. The paid scouters get mad and see it as rebellion then they start over reacting to things.

I will absolutely not be participating in this phenomenon. Facts exist and they matter, period. You ignore them at your own peril. Pretending that things are one way (pravda) when they are plainly another (istina) is the root of the rot that always ruins whatever our (Swedish perspective) only remaining enemy to the east does. Just look at Karelia, and inversely the Baltic countries now compared to USSR times. If you want things to work in your country, citizens need to know what is actually happening in it and how things work on a nuts and bolts causal level, not what some high-level politician wants to be true or wants you to pretend to be the case so they can defraud your state. I can't control other people, but I will absolutely not pretend that the sky is green because it's inconvenient to someone else that it's blue. I don't care how out of touch or elitist that might seem to other people, for me that is a basic act of patriotism and cultural identity. I am of a people that doesn't operate on parallel political and factual truths. One of our defining cultural traits is that we operate on factual truth only. This might sound a little harsh, and in a sense it is but it's not directed towards you. I just grew up knowing that I would be the target of political propaganda and that a country that did not wish us well was trying to convince citizens that they should give up resistance so that they could take over our country and suck all the resources out of it too, like they already have the territory they control. I've thought about the importance of seeking and confirming truth for a very long time, in several political time periods and in different countries with and without political censorship and repression. In addition, I have a religious obligation to never give up trying to see reality as it is in order to help other people. If you give up truth and respect for the equal intrinsic value and dignity of each human being, it doesn't matter how slick your talk is, it's all going to go sideways in the end. Convincing other of something is all fine and good, but what's the point if you don't make sure to be right first?

Show me a Life Scout who cannot develop Eagle project ideas and I will show you a scout with limited community service. Consider 17 year old Life Scout Bowden Warren who is also a member of Newton Grove Fire and Rescue (NC) and his words to Newton Grove Town Board. “I’m here to propose my Eagle Scout project plan. This will be a significant enhancement to the Newton Grove emergency helicopter landing zone that we, the Newton Grove Fire and Rescue, use. This project is designed to help improve the safety, visibility and accessibility of the area, ensuring it meets modern standards for helicopter landings. Based on my experience as a member of Newton Grove Fire and Rescue, I’ve seen first hand the need to improve this existing location, which at this time, is just an open grass lot that we have to use. There are some safety concerns that are due to limited lighting and unmarked power lines. There have been some close calls when landing helicopters. In the last 12 months, per last year’s call volume, we averaged more than one Life Flight per month from the Newton Grove emergency landing zone, which has increased. The logistics of Newton Grove, as each of you know, we’re an agriculture community. We have a major interstate with highways that intersect, and we are growing an industrial area as well. I believe this validates the need of having a more permanent and upgraded emergency landing zone. If you support this plan, the construction would include land preparation, electrical work and pouring a concrete pad that would be encased by a decorative perimeter. It would also have a sidewalk to access the service road, which is located off of Mount Olive Highway on East Weeksdale Street. Based on the projected expenses of this project being around $40,000, I plan to reach out to the Newton Grove community as well as local businesses to help with funding for this project. I hope each of you see this project as a major asset to the town and surrounding communities, as much as I do.” Response from Mayor and more at source: https://www.clintonnc.com/news/103506/n-grove-helipad-gets-green-light

I got an email on Friday titled Monthly Renewal Information with a list of everyone whose is scheduled to expire on August 31. Those parents should have also received notification on Friday, and I will be contacting them individually to be sure they did receive it and to confirm their status for the upcoming pack year.

Those are all great ideas. I'd add: Form an adult patrol. Act like a patrol. Make a yell. A flag. Camp apart. Have your own kitchen, just like theirs. Do your menu, just like they do. Have your own grubmaster. Plan your own patrol activities when it's patrol time. Set the example.

@mrjohns2, we validated you, now what do we propose for a solution? One of my strategies: offer to cook an adult-only meal. This assumes you know how to cook one very fine meal very well. But, usually when adults know that they’re getting a meal where they won’t have listen to kids complain, they’ll pitch in. Other ideas: Camp physically distant from the youth. Attend Camporees and require that the SM visit all of the other troops. Get your SM to training. Attend a summer camp that does patrol cooking. It takes quite a while to unlearn bad habits. So encourage her every time she takes a step back.

Definitely Council staffed. We have to pay council in advance for shooting sports so they can make sure to have qualified staff on hand.