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I too used to, stress USED TO, do that. But was informed that unless the requirement specifically states you cannot use an activity for more than one requirement, you gotta accept it. I am waiting for the duel enrolled Girl Scout/Scouting America Scout to do one project for both their Gold Award and Eagle.

I had a pretty traditional Scouting experience that culminated in earning the Eagle Scout award after I had a lot of fun and finally got around to the paperwork. One of my best my friends could be described as a "Paper Eagle." He made it through the program with very little camping and had everything wrapped up by high school so he could focus more on academics. Today, he's a professor at a prestigious university and travels the world to present his research. He is absolutely someone we'd want to represent the program. Scouting just means different things to different people and we all have to be OK with that for the BSA to survive.

“Boy Scouts lets him be a kid.” At his pack's annual Blue and Gold Banquet, nine-year-old Cameron Echols received a wooden axe for his bravery in fighting his cancer. The axe had inscriptions ‘A Scout is Brave’ with Cameron’s name and the scripture Joshua 1:9 — “Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God is with you.” "Cameron was diagnosed with a brain tumor last year, a myeloblastoma, near his cerebellum in his brain that was blocking fluid from going to the rest of his body. A surgery was performed that removed most of the tumor, but to get the rest they used radiation that he went through up until last December. Cameron is still going through chemotherapy and will continue that up until this fall with the hope he is done sometime in September or October. In the meantime, scouting has given the young boy a true outlet to feel like a normal kid for a bit and get away from everything he is enduring." More at source (text with audio): https://www.clantonadvertiser.com/2025/03/26/echols-fighting-cancer-with-family-scouts-support-behind-him/

@Eagle94-A1 is right. For advancement, read BSA/SA Guide To Advancement. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf Section 4.2.3.6 Fulfilling More Than One Requirement With a Single Activity "At times it may be appropriate for a Scout to apply what was done to meet one requirement toward the completion of another." Your situation is also explicitly answered. "Some requirements may have the appearance of aligning, but upon further examination differ. These seemingly similar requirements usually have nuances intended to create quite different experiences. The Communication and Citizenship in the Community merit badges are a good example. Each requires the Scout to attend a public meeting, but that is where the similarity ends. For Communication, the Scout is asked to practice active listening skills during the meeting and present an objective report that includes all points of view. For Citizenship in the Community, the Scout is asked to examine differences in opinions and then to defend one side. The Scout may attend the same public meeting, but to pass the requirements for both merit badges the Scout must actively listen and prepare a report, and also examine differences in opinion and defend one side."

The argument around this sort of thing is odd. The standard is the standard. 21 MB, so many camping nights, pass the swim test, etc ... right? This is sort of a like the old school adage that A's may pay, but C's get degrees. For the scout that goes above and beyond, fantastic, but it does not redefine the standard. The kid that does just the standard is just as much an eagle scout as any other eagle scout.

The best benefit a scout could have is lots of buddies being able to afford to join the troop. We’d use windfalls like this to offset registration or camp fees. You could even recognize that a particular weekend was thanks to the efforts of the family and their corporate matching program.

My understanding is that there is always a delay between administrations. If there is an issue with Trump's approval, perhaps this is a good opportunity to move away from the President of the US as the honorary President of Scouting America and have someone else serve in that role. David Montgomery? Mike Rowe? I'm not sure if there is an issue, but it would be interesting to see someone who is actually a former scout and exemplifies scouting ideals as the honorary president vs politicians.

This is from a FB post...

YinYan: Thank you for "Being There" (a very good movie by the way) for our youth. You will eventually be glad you did. Going over this once more. I retired from local gov't service about umpteen years ago, and we had a similar program. I could (and did) donate money to a charity , and got the appropriate tax benefit, and my employer also donated an equal amount to the charity. The charity got twice the money, I got a tax bene, All good. The charity does good things, so I support them. I might even , eventually need the service they provide, but did not seek to use it in any way. The charity gets to decide what to do with the money to serve the purpose they serve. In YOUR situation, what I hear is this: Parent would donate money to a charity , in this case, his Scout's Troop, thru the CO apparently, and his employer would send an equal amount to the Scout Troop too, thru the CO. All good, Scouting gets twice the money, the parent can use the tax benefit as allowed. They are BOTH "Charity donations", yes? BUT... Parent now wants her/his donation credited specifically to his/her Scout's benefit to pay for fees, dues, etc. This is not right or appropriate or legal in many ways, and I am surprised the parent does not realize this. Or do they? Donations to any charity must be done with no expectation of a personal benefit in return, no Quid Pro Quo.... That makes it a business transaction, not a DONATION. Our Scout Council has several properties that are named for the donor that paid for them. That is the only "quo" I see in that. Did their son or Grandson or Great Grand daughter get any direct benefit? I don't know, but the name is on the gate and above the door. Your parent wants both a charitable donation AND paid Scout fees from the same bag of money. Tain't funny, Magee....

His numbers seem to jive with what I am seeing in my district/council. Sounds like we lost 25% of membership in 24 hours. On a personal note I got off the phone with my COR and I told them that we're fine, we have no action to take, the numbers that dropped from our roll were expected and unavoidable. I reminded them that the extra paperwork I had them chasing the past few weeks to get our handful of not renewed over the line is right now paying with dividends as no one at council can complain about our units membership status; we had no sloppy losses due to laziness (which I suspect a lot of other units are now dealing with).

In the IRS guides, at irs.gov, these give these clear “donation from family a, family a’s son benefits” as examples. Again, not a grey area of being over the line. Clearly over the line.

Programs like this are indeed legit. Do not contact anyone at council until you thoroughly understand all the info below. OK, going through your post item by item... "We have a scenario right now where a registered parent of a scout has donated money (say $500) through a company's Charitable Matching program they have. It's a big banking company and the program is legit. They expected the money to be matched, then when the company matched it and sent a check through our chartered church to our troop as a $1000 (for example)." Let's verify who the actual donees are first. To whom did the parents write their check? Was the check made out to Troop X or some other recipient? To whom did the Company make out their portion, AND, to which Employer Identification Number (EIN) did they credit the donation? (This info should be on their check or the check stub (or some accompanying letter.) These company programs may only make the donations to a legitimate 501 c (3) charity, and each charity has an IRS assigned EIN. You can try to find the EIN / Charitable Organization using this tool: https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/ Make sure the EIN matches the CO name. Now, if the Bank put in the EIN for your local council, or the National council, then you have a problem. The money then technically belongs to the council, or whoever is listed by EIN on the check. [Your Troop is most likely not registered as a 501 c(3). It could be.] Let's assume for a second that everything is as it should be... that is, 1) Your unit is not a separate charitable org. 2) the parent check was written to Troop X, and 3) the bank check indicates the EIN for your CO. If these are true, then that money technically belongs to the CO. Did you or anyone inform/coordinate this donation with the CO? Does the Treasurer for the CO understand that this donation is to be used for the Troop? There are other details involved with this, but let's leave it at that for the moment. What the parent proposes, giving the donation money solely for the use of their Scout, is ILLEGAL!!! Do not, under any circumstances do this. As @Tron points out, there is a principal the IRS looks at called Inurement (or private benefit) https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/inurement-private-benefit-charitable-organizations If your unit gives any of this donated money (either the check from the parent's or the matched bank donation, as the two amounts are "tied" together) to only that Scout, then you violate federal law, specifically the Internal Revenue Code passed by Congress. In doing so you also would place your CO's charitable organization status in jeopardy! One way you could use the money is to give each and every Scout an equal share of the total sum, and credit those in Scoutbook. But, even that could present problems if the amounts are large. The IRS has given NO specific guidance on this. So, if the equal share for each Scout was $25, no one would blink an eye at that. If the equal share for each Scout is $2500, then you are in troubled waters... Here are some related threads you might read to gain a more fulsome understanding. If you need more specificity on this, and you are not comfortable posting information here, you may DM me... Regards

This is not correct. Once money is donated to a unit is technically property of the unit. There are a lot of IRS rules that dance around scout accounts and if you give money back to the parent, even as a sub account/scout account line item in this nature you risk your charter organizations non-profit status due to the personal inurement regulations of the IRS.

You probably have three things working against you: 1. Memorabilia worth in dollars is cyclical, not linear. Councils have tended to over-produce patches. So there’s a glut. 2. People like me give old patches away to young scouts. We don’t care if you’d pay a grand for it. If you aren’t hiking and camping with us and we haven’t seen your Scout Spirit IRL, you ain’t getting it. 3. I personally invest time sharing my values to scouts. They grow up and become hard customers. (Just try selling anything to my adult children.) I’m sure others are like me. We work for smiles. If there’s an opportunity to put a smile on a face instead of a dollar in a pocket, I’m in.

This is allowed. It was brought up as an option for Cub Scouts units when I did BALOO, so I looked more into it. We did this on a campout this past fall. Stayed at a council camp and council provided archery range masters for us. Scouts loved it. Being at a council camp makes it a council event for G2SS purposes. Council also had kayaks at the camp, so was able to arrange for a day for Webelos and AOLs to go kayaking. I think these type of things makes Cub Scouting so much better.

I practice law for a living. Over 45 years now. Legal analysis is not a beauty contest. I stand by my analysis.

I wasn't making that comparison, but was showing the effects of hiding numbers with a "grace" period. But, since you asked... From Apr 24 to Apr 25: Cub Scout: 2.4% loss, with a loss of 8 Packs Scout: 5.7% loss, with a loss of 8 Troops Venturing: 49% loss, with a loss of 1 Crew (it was a big and popular Crew) Exploring: 11% loss, with a loss of 3 Posts

In that global news wire thing they state more than a million which is purposely vague; however, knowing how non-profits like to do things I am going to assume that more than a million is closer to 1 million than any other milestone number above 1 million. I think we take this as a good thing, staying above 1 million for 2 years in a row is a sign that the membership decline has arrested. If they had reported just under 1 million or almost 1 million I would totally be in the oh snap, we're still declining camp. My special twist to this discussion though .... local rumors in my area are that "all hands on deck" emails were sent out last night concerning membership loss. Apparently the council I am in was not watching the expired membership reports and was counting everyone who had not renewed their membership on Dec 31, 2024 as members and yesterday when national dropped all of those people from the membership rolls my council lost somewhere around 25% of it's membership. What is everyone else hearing in their neck of the woods?

Inquisitive Scouter says it. So let it be written, so shall it be... Sorry, recently watched Yul Brynner as Pharoah... I am often sadly amazed at the neglect of the Scout Law and Promise. Not to mention the Golden Rule and (nudge nudge) the desire to find ways around personal and societal limitations. This sort of thing makes me think about how things have changed , and/or stayed the same... A Scout is Trustworthy (1948 Fieldbook): A Scout's honor is to be trusted. If he was to violate his honor by telling a lie, or by cheating or by not doing exactly a given task when trusted on his honor , he may be directed to hand over his Scout badge. ((Scout Handbook, 2016): A Scout tells the truth. He is honest, and he keeps his promises. People can depend on him. A Scout is Thrifty (1948 Fieldbook): He does not wantonly destroy property. He works faithfully, wastes nothing, and makes the best use of his opportunities. He saves his money so that he may pay his own way, be generous to those in need, and helpful to worthy objects.. He may work for pay, but must not receive tips for courtesies or Good Turns. (Scout Handbook, 2016) : A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for the future. He protects and conserves natural resources. He is careful in his use of time, money and property. The IRS has a purpose, often overlooked, and that is to make (some of the monetary playing field even. Donate money and then to claim it back for personal use just on face seems wrong. Thru the company's largess, that this parent wants to help the PURPOSE of Scouting along is wonderful, but the way that is requested is jut wrong. If the parent wants to establish some funds in his Scout's Scout Account (which idea I personally have never liked) is fine, but that is not what the company would understand, I bet. Oops, can't bet. No gambling in Scout fundraising... Company matched donation? To CO for use of Scout Units? Wonderful;. Buy a new Troop Trailer, a new Cub Pack Pinewood Derby track, new pop up tents, cook sets, camp stoves for the Patrols. Renovate, repaint the meeting rooms. New sign out front "HOME OF CUB PACK AND SCOUT TROOP XYZ< MEETS FRIDAY 7PM>>>>" Send the whole Troop to Philmont. Send the whole Cub Pack to overnight on the USS Constellation in Baltimore. But not for one Scout....

When distributing equalized there are some dangers based on how much and to how many. At any time if 30% of net income (annual) benefits any 1 individual it violates the inurement rules (Wendy L Parker Rehabilitation Foundation INC v C.I.R). If an excess of 8% of gross revenue (annual) goes to member benefits it violates personal gain versus non-profit mission rules (Spokane Motorcycle Club V US 222 F. Supp 151 ). There are a bunch of other cases that touch on smaller amounts but you're dealing with a big dollar item so these 2 are the most probable court cases that define IRS rules that you need to be weary of.

For Tron, you do reference local policies. The lodge advisor term and dues paying parent is local. One dangerous situation is when the lodge chief and advisor are in the same household. It can be friction whether the conversation is from parent/youth or chief/advisor. You are correct on the 1year term on district/council positions, but no term limits by national. From a commissioner standpoint, a couple awards require 3yrs of a 5yr periods.

Back in the day, when I was trying to save the world, I sought the commissioners' help in identifying issues that were undermining the program, such as losing over 50% of Webelos before crossover (the National Average). The short story is not just NO, but..... If the commissioners could visit a unit once every two months to just observe casually what the Dens and patrols are doing, then they could report their observations to the District Commissioner (DC). If the DC identifies a trend, the district can then approach a solution, such as training. Of course, that approach requires identifying levels of performance and methods for working below minimum performance. If judging unit performance is not expressed correctly, then yes, observing units will appear to be overstepping. I've been there. But it can work. One DC friend ran the UC corps successfully in the largest district in Minnesota. He addressed problems quickly and with compassion. A good UC corps starts with a good DC. In my opinion, the DC is the most critical Key Three position. They require a big-picture understanding of the scouting program and how the units fit in the model. Then, they develop a district program to help unit leaders enhance their unit performance within that model. Most districts take the first person that says yes to the UC position, but more often than not, they aren't qualified. First, the district needs to find someone who is a good recruiter; it's a skill. They will find a qualified UC. Barry

Its interesting that you say that. Conflict of interest, I wouldn't be assigned to my troop but hoping it might free up others to do so. Currently being told to expect maybe 3 to 4 unit assignments 2 to 4 visits a year. Based on my in-troop experience and the little district observations, its going to take a lot more the 4 visits a year. Not relishing the idea of being the new kid in town in the wild-west district.

What's up with the delay in Eagle Certificates? If they are waiting for the president's signature, why not use the one form the previous term? And if it is a design issue, why were they not updated when the medals and patches were updated. Those have been available for some time now.

That is actually the best response and I apologize for bringing it in. Separating frustration from places it should be left from.

Also have a Nixon certificate. Sad to admit that at that point in my life I doubt I even knew who Stan Lee was! 😁

This is absolutely a factor. Just focusing on the recent trend (membership being roughly 1/3 of what it was 10 years ago), there just aren't many new collectors to replace the ones getting up there in age. I actually don't mind the stagnant prices. The limited collecting I do brings me joy and helps preserve Scouting history in my area. I've never sold a patch. I'm sure it varies by region, but I noticed an "explosion" in patches specifically designed to be collectible around 2000 (different borders, limited runs, etc.). I was away from Scouting from 2007-2022 (returning to be my son's den leader). Since I never experienced this era first-hand, the variations have little appeal to me.

My Eagle certificate is signed by Richard Nixon. I am just as proud of that as anyone. Let's leave politics out of this discussion. The POTUS is the POTUS.

Back in day, I received both my Eagle certificate and medal long after my Troop Court of Honor but that's another story. Anyway, when I finally received my certificate signed by President Nixon, I groaned to my Dad that I rather it had been signed by Stan Lee. My Dad was not amused.

I find it amusing that the stuff that cannot be easily made, i.e. patches and medals, have been done and out for a while, but the item that can be easily laser printed we are waiting on.

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters." Senator Alan K. Simpson (1931-2025) Scout Salute and Farewell

It has never come up to me in conversation, but why not ? BUGLE as the instrument in the MUSIC Merit Badge req.#1. and #4b........

council: your troop has paying members, well "nothing to see here"

Agreed. I think BSA was hoist by its own petard on this one. The focus of Summer Camp is, generally, the merit badge program. This is a mistake, because it turned the focus to Advancement. And then, to do it on the cheap, camps hire 15 & 16 year olds to teach MBs, when this inherently violates the "spirit" of what the MB program is about. (This is where you can go down the rabbit hole of the responsibilities of unit leaders and "actual" merit badge counselors as well...) Summer Camp is a "pay your fee, get your degree." operation. On the whole, we have a huge integrity problem when it comes to Summer Camps and the Merit Badge program. Parents, Scouts staffs, unit leaders, paid professionals, National... all complicit. This is one of our biggest "dirty little secrets." I used to work with Scouts after camp to go through their MBs and ask them how they completed the requirements. Many, many times, I got the answer "Oh, we didn't do that one." or "My counselor said we didn't have to do that." or some such response. After working with Scouts to correct, I filed quite a few of these: https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-800_WB.pdf Know what became of them? Nothing... ignored

One reason why my troop is still alive: we DO stuff. Except for 2 members, all of my Scouts transferred from other troops. And one of the 2 had brothers who transferred into the troop. Sad thing is this: it can be very, VERY (emphasis) discouraging for some Scouts who see the 'Paper Eagles" I cannot tell you how many times in the past few years I have seen Scouts discouraged and not want to earn Eagle, because of "paper Eagles." Sadly I have met too many folks that believe summer camp/ merit badge weekends/etc are "purchasing" MBs.

They know who the "academic" or "paper" Eagle Scouts are, too. "If the minimums weren't good enough, they wouldn't be the minimums." I do not like that way of doing business, but the world is full of folks who accept that currency.

They figure all of us that endured the ISP effort of the 70's have maybe forgotten. (We have not) Even as a youth we fully understood it was a fiasco. I got my Eagle (had to accelerate the process) under the "Old" requirements. On camp staff a few years later there were Old Eagles and New Eagles. Even though they camped and were actually on staff, there was still the pecking order. Scouts can easily read and understand requirements. They see that much of the advancement now is focused on classroom and less on experiential learning. Youth want action, not more school. Go and DO

In the interview, based on info from former SE of Hiawathaland: - National forced them to merge as they believed small councils cannot succeed They joined Bay Lakes as it was in good shape Bay Lakes has been in decline since (membership & financials) They joined MCC Camp Hiawatha no longer in jeopardy due to scouting council realignment

My guess that if National funded councils 100% there would be a lot of DOGEing happening to reduce the number of councils. 😉

Motorboating and Water Skiing merit badges have been around for a long time. They are part of the program because in many parts of the country they are things that kids *do* experience, and nation benefits from them learning to do it safely. But when a camp program tries to be all things to all people with limited staff, the aquatics director needs to dig heels in and limit the programs offered.

In my council all of the donation haggling seems to be done by the DE's and BOD. Might be different in other councils. My council was a total burning ship 5ish years ago based on 990 numbers. I know my CE is good at getting donations in, but I don't think he's doing it himself, I think his method is work other people to work other people.

The bad thing is that in some areas the paid scouters are running out the volunteers because they question what is going on. By the time they get to the 50+ years old with their kids out of the unit level stuff, they have seen enough of the districts and councils to ask "why do we do this like this?" Many times it's not a slam, just an honest question. The paid scouters get mad and see it as rebellion then they start over reacting to things.

I will absolutely not be participating in this phenomenon. Facts exist and they matter, period. You ignore them at your own peril. Pretending that things are one way (pravda) when they are plainly another (istina) is the root of the rot that always ruins whatever our (Swedish perspective) only remaining enemy to the east does. Just look at Karelia, and inversely the Baltic countries now compared to USSR times. If you want things to work in your country, citizens need to know what is actually happening in it and how things work on a nuts and bolts causal level, not what some high-level politician wants to be true or wants you to pretend to be the case so they can defraud your state. I can't control other people, but I will absolutely not pretend that the sky is green because it's inconvenient to someone else that it's blue. I don't care how out of touch or elitist that might seem to other people, for me that is a basic act of patriotism and cultural identity. I am of a people that doesn't operate on parallel political and factual truths. One of our defining cultural traits is that we operate on factual truth only. This might sound a little harsh, and in a sense it is but it's not directed towards you. I just grew up knowing that I would be the target of political propaganda and that a country that did not wish us well was trying to convince citizens that they should give up resistance so that they could take over our country and suck all the resources out of it too, like they already have the territory they control. I've thought about the importance of seeking and confirming truth for a very long time, in several political time periods and in different countries with and without political censorship and repression. In addition, I have a religious obligation to never give up trying to see reality as it is in order to help other people. If you give up truth and respect for the equal intrinsic value and dignity of each human being, it doesn't matter how slick your talk is, it's all going to go sideways in the end. Convincing other of something is all fine and good, but what's the point if you don't make sure to be right first?

Show me a Life Scout who cannot develop Eagle project ideas and I will show you a scout with limited community service. Consider 17 year old Life Scout Bowden Warren who is also a member of Newton Grove Fire and Rescue (NC) and his words to Newton Grove Town Board. “I’m here to propose my Eagle Scout project plan. This will be a significant enhancement to the Newton Grove emergency helicopter landing zone that we, the Newton Grove Fire and Rescue, use. This project is designed to help improve the safety, visibility and accessibility of the area, ensuring it meets modern standards for helicopter landings. Based on my experience as a member of Newton Grove Fire and Rescue, I’ve seen first hand the need to improve this existing location, which at this time, is just an open grass lot that we have to use. There are some safety concerns that are due to limited lighting and unmarked power lines. There have been some close calls when landing helicopters. In the last 12 months, per last year’s call volume, we averaged more than one Life Flight per month from the Newton Grove emergency landing zone, which has increased. The logistics of Newton Grove, as each of you know, we’re an agriculture community. We have a major interstate with highways that intersect, and we are growing an industrial area as well. I believe this validates the need of having a more permanent and upgraded emergency landing zone. If you support this plan, the construction would include land preparation, electrical work and pouring a concrete pad that would be encased by a decorative perimeter. It would also have a sidewalk to access the service road, which is located off of Mount Olive Highway on East Weeksdale Street. Based on the projected expenses of this project being around $40,000, I plan to reach out to the Newton Grove community as well as local businesses to help with funding for this project. I hope each of you see this project as a major asset to the town and surrounding communities, as much as I do.” Response from Mayor and more at source: https://www.clintonnc.com/news/103506/n-grove-helipad-gets-green-light

I got an email on Friday titled Monthly Renewal Information with a list of everyone whose is scheduled to expire on August 31. Those parents should have also received notification on Friday, and I will be contacting them individually to be sure they did receive it and to confirm their status for the upcoming pack year.

Those are all great ideas. I'd add: Form an adult patrol. Act like a patrol. Make a yell. A flag. Camp apart. Have your own kitchen, just like theirs. Do your menu, just like they do. Have your own grubmaster. Plan your own patrol activities when it's patrol time. Set the example.

@mrjohns2, we validated you, now what do we propose for a solution? One of my strategies: offer to cook an adult-only meal. This assumes you know how to cook one very fine meal very well. But, usually when adults know that they’re getting a meal where they won’t have listen to kids complain, they’ll pitch in. Other ideas: Camp physically distant from the youth. Attend Camporees and require that the SM visit all of the other troops. Get your SM to training. Attend a summer camp that does patrol cooking. It takes quite a while to unlearn bad habits. So encourage her every time she takes a step back.

@MaleficentStitchSounds like a council run activity to me. Even if it is "designed" for a single troop, it sounds like you are good. Now, if you rented the camp / range and provided the properly trained people, it would be a bit more on the line for me. Since they staff it, seems pretty clear you are still good.

Definitely Council staffed. We have to pay council in advance for shooting sports so they can make sure to have qualified staff on hand.