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This looks like a response to a request from a Pack for the IRS to provide tax guidance. I think it has been clear that scout accounts are in the grey area of tax regulations. This is a case of don't ask permission and you will likely be fine. If some kid buys a C8 Corvette with his scout account, the IRS may have some questions. Outside of that, I have never seen evidence of a single issue with the IRS.

Those leetle scraps of cardboard... I can look at the ones in my shoebox collection and remember the folks that taught/exampled/pushed/cajoled/applauded/rewarded me along the way. Merit Badges, ranks, OA, camps.... will today's Scouts save those scraps? WIll they miss them... There is a comic with a fun stand up routine who struck a cord with me... he mentioned the photos we like to show people.... "here we are at uncle frederick's house. That's grandma Matilda and ...." then he talks about WHAT we photographed: special events, formal photo portraits, everyone neat and pretty.... "Now, what will our grandkids show off their phone..."here's my breakfast in 2024, isn't that a NEAT waffle....the maple syrup was just too too..."

Thanks to all who have provided feedback and support over the past 2.5 years as I've returned to Scouting as my son's Den Leader. I really enjoy the comradery of this message board. Happy Thanksgiving!

Over the course of my volunteer career, and through the several councils I have been involved in, the adult volunteer corps has been treated as expendable. BSA should protect the rights of every member vigorously, youth or adult, when needed. I talk with many who were formerly involved with the program, and ask them if they'll lend a hand. There is an element of genuine fear of dealing with other peoples' kids, and being one misunderstanding away from accusation and false ignominy. My personal safeguard against this is to always have an adult buddy "attached" to the hip. I can readily recall at least four instances over the years where a Scout "heard" something that I or another adult did not actually say, misinterpreted it, reported it to parents/other leaders, and the accused adult thankfully had other adult witnesses to refute or clarify. I do not even do Scoutmaster conferences out of earshot any more. This is not the way it should be, but I have found it to be a prudent practice.

Nothing new to see here. So a scout assigned responsibility of 10k in the troop treasury. He spends it on gear to be properly prepared for some high adventure trips. The skills gained preparing for those trips inspire in him some ideas for a community service project and he mobilizes 700 volunteer hours to complete the project. The scout is publicly recognized for his benefit. Logging those hours, BSA will translate that many hours into a dollar value amounting to about 10k benefit. It has nothing to do with P-R. Any private benefit is balanced by the public good. That is why it is much harder for IRS to go after scouts compared to athletes who raise funds to attend an elite competition.

@swilliams, I'm going to make this quick. Scouting works when younger scouts look up to older scouts. Scouting also happens in the patrol. So don't do patrols by grade. Also, scouts want to be with their friends. These 3 items create a difficult puzzle to solve. Some older scouts are natural at working with younger scouts and many are afraid of doing it. Most friendships are around age. You don't understand the scout dynamics as well as the scouts do. That's where the art of being the SM comes in. Another way of saying that is you flail around trying to coach your older scouts to do what they should be doing. I gave up on selecting patrols, let the scouts figure it out but make sure patrols are balanced. Good luck.

I figured out a very long time ago that the registrar must be kept happy if you ever wanted anything fixed for your unit. If they're removed then I can't imagine the frustration that will create. I mean, I just hoped the counsel exec stayed out of my way but I went out of my way to keep the registrar happy. They knew how to fix things. For those of you still dealing with these issues, I wish you luck.

Agreed. Some hold this issue as black and white. I respect their position. I hold it as grey, and I am comfortable operating in "my" grey area on this one. Until IRS makes a definitive ruling (and council stops giving us checks for Scouts), that is 😜

I have all of my certificate cards. My sash is hanging on my wall. It's fun to look at them and think back. The cards are almost more valuable to me because they have the names of my Scoutmasters and adds to the memories.

I get what you're saying here; that ties into constantly recruiting. DE's are constantly pushing recruitment of scouts for units but they never seem to push constantly recruiting district committee/commissioner corp.

Our district has a pretty good commissioner corps. We are always short 2-4 unit commissioners and 1-2 roundtable commissioners. But we do have groups of both and we do get the job done. We seem to do a good job recognizing those with plaques and knots as appropriate. Our district is one of the top in the council, though. With 7 or 8 districts, ours sold 45% of the popcorn in the council. 2 of the last 3 council commissioners came from our district and 2 of the last 3 council presidents came from our district.

No... haven't seen a "successful" or robust Commissioner program. I have always believed you need to incentivize the behavior you want... Other than the parents having their children earn Eagle Scout, what incentives are there for adults to volunteer in any capacity? Altruism lasts but for a season. Volunteers need to feel appreciated, valued, and recognized. And when an organization invests in their training and development, volunteers grow even more dedicated. Do you feel appreciated in your council? (Personally, no.) Are you recognized for the value you add to the organization at all levels? (No) Does your council/district/unit invest in your training? (Unit yes... unit pays for required position training, and will pay 50% of training that contributes to JTE metrics. District and council, no.) Has someone mentored you in a path of development as a Scouter? (No) When you learn of the salaries of higher ups in BSA, does it affect your willingness to volunteer or donate? https://www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/how-much-income-puts-you-top-1-5-10/ Our council exec's individual compensation package is $270K per year. Well into the top 5% for households in our area (but not nationwide.). When most parents learn this, they are absolutely shocked. Yeah, they'll volunteer to help their kid's unit, but nothing past that... especially when they see little to no value added from council to their Troop program/success.

And know you also know why the old timers complain “how come none of the younger volunteers stay around after they are done with their units?” Same reason.

Most Scouters I know do not have a personal attorney, nor can they afford one. As for the CO, most I have encountered are not active. And if they are active, councils tend to give them very little info on the situation in my experience. Heck when I was a DE, the SE kept info from me, and when I called him to tell him something about a situation, was told , " Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you....." And another organization's investigation won't mean squat to BSA. I knew someone falsely accused of sexual assault. There was a criminal investigation, and the evidence they found supported my friend. Even though she was cleared, she was still banned by the BSA.

I do not think you are too impatient. The forming of patrols is the first step. I would say give the SPL the goal of having the patrols by the end of the first meeting. Anyone not there can join a patrol when they do show up. Suggest some games the scouts could play which will help them get to know each other differently. Like 4-corners games*. Or other type of grouping style games. After the games, SPL hands over the "create your patrol" challenge. Have SPL provide the purpose and minimal boundaries 1. Patrols of 6-8. 2. Patrols will be the teams for games. 3. Patrols will be the group you camp, cook and hike with. Etc... The SPL can use the corners as a way to "gather your patrol". If the the SPL (or the scouts) are having difficulty, start with pairs. Choose a buddy to be with in a patrol. Then the buddys find another pair to join up with. Before they "commit" encourage them to talk about why they want to be together. Common interests? Common goals? Etc... (this goes back to the games played earlier). After a 4-some is created, they can join up with another 4-some, or a pair which did not join another pair yet. No real rules, the idea is to break down the "create a group of 6-8" into a simpler first step. The SPL and scouts will probably surprise you with how quickly they can self-group. *4-corners. Scouts gather in center of room. SPL says the category and points to the different corners with "answers". Then scouts run to the corner of their choice. Ex. SPL says "Category is breakfast" points to each corner and says "bacon, sausage, ham, no-meat" ... "and go". SPL continues with another category...

In all of my experience in Scouting, every single time adults interfere with the Patrol process, they screw things up. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. (major emphasis). There is a reason why Traditional Patrols, aka Mixed Aged Patrol are still around,and begrudgingly mentioned in BSA literature on occasion, 35 years after national wanted aged based patrols to be the new norm: THEY WORK! (again major emphasis) Aged based patrols have so many problems, especially NSPs. I was part of the pilot program, and it failed miserably in my troop. Imagine my surprise when I discover that aged based patrols were the new way of creating patrols. @MattR said it best:

Exactly. At all levels... unit/council/National. And sorry for the long post. To quote Ben Franklin, "I have already made this paper too long, for which I must crave pardon, not having now time to make it shorter."

Wow. So much of what you wrote seems extremely predictable. BUT, we've seen that happen many times in scouting. My scouting days are over mostly, but in my two decades as a leader, the registrar was critical to fixing so so so many issues. In fact, the registrar was pretty much the only person who could fix unit specific issues.

Older son managed 31 merit badges will all but two being on physical blue cards. (He just made Eagle in July of this year.) There's something so satisfying about seeing all those cards lined up in his binder. He keeps them in baseball card page protectors, along with his signed rank cards. Most common way our Troop handles "blue cards" now is by connecting the Scout and the MB Counselor on Scoutbook. Everything is completed digitally, but a "blue card" can be printed if so desired. I'm a bit OCD, so I actually purchased blue paper to print them on. 😂 On that note, I'm now a MB Counselor for 5 badges and have a Zoom call set up with a Scout for Thursday. I do miss meeting in person, but reluctantly realize this is the way things work now.

I could not agree more. I have yet to attend an overnight event with my 8-year-old Cub Scout. I don't think we'll attend our council's 3-day summer Cub camp either. The thought of being saddled with someone else's kids is overwhelming to me. I struggle to maintain order at Den meetings. 10% of the boys cause 90% of the problems and I don't want to be there when something really bad happens. For my son to get the most out of the program, I know I'll need to take a different approach when he joins a Scout Troop, but as of now - it's not worth the trouble IMHO. I really hate to admit it, but it's true.

Here is the information. https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/4093007515 A chance to lead a safe, sustainable, and compliant environment for all employees and program participants.

Thanks for your time at the helm, Richard! I appreciate your coming here to try answer the hard questions and critiques, and understand you often had to navigate tortured waters to try to provide us a coherent response. Best wishes in your future endeavors.

Eagle Scout David Montgomery

We think there could be more success if: - It was clear councils appreciated and recognized these district level vounteers. Had recognition for district level volunteers raising more money $$ - councils invested in training and development of these district level volunteers. Had training for district level volunteers to raise more money $$ - council professionals placed a priority on recruiting district level volunteers. Placed a priority on district level volunteers raising more money $$ There - fixed that for you 😀

The metriics in the performance evaluation of the DE are what the DE will focus on. Until and unless the items we discuss as important are the primary measure of a DEs performance, they will never get done.

Even though our system is healthy most of the time, it can break for a time when one commissioner drops out. With each having 2-4 units, if one leaves (or 2), there is a big gap.

Yeah, either way. Although blue cards are typically preferred with outside mB counselors as we then keep the mB portion for our records. Regardless of which tracking method is used, some of the hidden growth outcomes for scouts in the process are: 1. Scout initiative. Choosing which badge, setting and achieving personal goals. 2. Communication skills. Scout contacting mB counselor and setting up times to meet. 3. Record keeping. Scout responsible for their handbook/blue cards. I only mention these b/c too often well meaning adults take over much of the process which denies scouts' these growth and learning opportunities.

To clarify ... I've seen good district commissioners, roundtable commissioners and such. My criticism is very specific aimed at the "unit commissioners". I believe the concept of "unit commissioner" is fundamentally flawed.

This is now very easy for key 3’s in Scoutbook. Just a few clicks. 🙂

Understatement of the year. I have seen it as well in the multiple councils I have been in. And now I know why so many old-timers no longer over the years stop doing anything with district or council, and focus on units instead. That or quit altogether.

The fact that there is virtually no recourse for a falsely accused Scouter contributes to the BSA's current doom loop. A person could: A: Accept the conclusions, resign, and hope that's the end of it (it might not be). B: Appeal to the BSA's kangaroo court to clear their good name (with limited success and all while calling more attention to the situation). C; Mount a vigorous (and expensive) legal defense with a slightly higher probability of success (again, while calling more attention to the situation). I'm glad to be a leader as long as my son and his friends are having fun; however, once he's done, I can't see myself continuing to support the program in any way that involves direct contact with youth. For every bad actor, there is probably an equal number of awful families who wouldn't hesitate to jeopardize a volunteer's reputation over a perceived slight. Granted, I believe the vast majority of people in this world are good and decent ... but it only takes one.

Trust town hall just started. Recording to be posted on the website after: https://event.webcasts.com/viewer/event.jsp?ei=1686285&tp_key=a54d23e33b

And there in lies the problem. Get out and do. Way to much focus on classroom merit badges, class instruction, checking boxes, adult leaders preventing experiential learning. How many times have we seen discussions on how to game the system so a Scout can get 20 nights camping? The goal should be to go out and do things, not just meet a metric. 20 nights should be simple to attain, and the Scout will learn volumes along the way. We were looking at what an AOL needs to do in order to earn arrow of light now, apparently camp with a BSA troop is no longer a thing, visit yes, but they can camp with their patrol. But, looking at the "Adventures" the first multiple pages is about safety considerations; food allergies anaphylaxis and epi-pens, behavior around campfires, etc etc etc. No doubt all good things, but this "safety moment" (and it's more than a moment) is front and center for every Adventure. Safety is important, but that cannot be our reason for being. To a parent new to the program, is this the right "Go to Market" thinking? Then they move into a BSA Troop, and "GASP!!!", the youth do stuff on their own!!. Scouts is OUTSIDE and doing stuff. The leadership training should be a less formal item and more something they experience and grow from. They will screw up, we as adult leaders can assist in making the course correction. The simplicity of the Troop program is that a 12 year old whom ignores advice and input and gets wet when their tent leaks or sleeps cold when they did not bring the recommended gear LEARNS A LESSON from THEIR actions. They hopefully realize they need to do better. Later, maybe as they go off to college or first job, they can recall that all advice is not bad. They can help themselves be better.

Though I always differ on "age based" and "traditional patrols" and NSPs, I 100% agree on a few key points. 100% agree ... Adults "screw things up. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.". Let the scouts decide ... with very minimal guidance ... and try to balance patrols (somewhat with many caveats). Even this point... I've often seen adults saying the scout's are deciding, but then I watch and the adults subvert the scout's independent decision making. Scouts want to be with their friends. The best patrols are where the patrol are (or become) friends and want to spend time together. ... Since the scouts plan, camp, cook, eat, sleep, game, and go to activities together, it really helps if the scouts naturally want to spend time together. IMHO, patrols start to fail when scout ditch their patrol to spend time with their friends in another patrol. Perhaps the scout should be in the other patrol then? IMHO, new scout patrols work well when 10+ join at the same time and NSPs are used to rapidly get scouts up to speed. But, there is no reason to keep those scouts in that patrol long term. Let the scout's decide.

I would posit that National would rather we have no camps and would be happy if Scouts do not go outside at all. That is where bad things may happen. My view is that National and the Councils want to focus on the Cubs that are easier to manage and have parents there to oversee. This whole Troops out and about without generating revenue to National and Councils is not the desired process Scouts is about raising money. Youth out doing things is secondary. Legacy things such as camps are not needed in the new world order.

yeah, keeping an eye on renewals is going to be a regular affair for sure. It would be great if they would offer the option to auto renew. Most places I have a membership with like Geocaching.com, Gaia GPS, etc. all email ahead of time "Your membership will renew on X" and it gives you a chance to end the subscription otherwise it just renews. Unsure why they didn't go this route for everyone's sanity and their financial benefit.

I will be making a trip and hand-delivering paperwork. One quirk in my locale is that one toyed of insurance has a credit that will pay for Scouts. However the paperwork needs to be turned into the council and they take care of it. Over 1/2 of my troop is in that program, so there is nothing I can do online. 2 of my adults show YPT has expired. I have copies of their YPT certificates from January, just need to find them, and will be delivering them with the other paperwork. Since all my folks, save 1 adult, were involved in Scouting prior to the new process, everyone, save that one guy, recharters at same time.

I was told the same thing about multiples; I am not happy about it but I understand and I am willing to do the extra paper and leg work as long as my primary membership goes through. Both of the units that I directly work with are doing renewal mostly on your own. Unit 1 is doing adults are paid for by the unit, and that only encountered 1 issue, and it was with a multiple who had already paid; council has to drop him from our roster and then re-add him after Jan 1, it makes no sense. Unit 2 is going it all on your own. Both units are basically planning on revisiting peoples membership issues after Jan 1 due to the various grace periods. Overall no-one seems upset except some people with multiples. The multiples thing is a problem, and I think mostly due to a lack of a good job aid to walk people through that process.

Fees paid. Roster submitted. Registrar is happy we are "on time." Only one of four units on time in council as of 2PM today. Yikes. She told me she has 6 open support tickets with BSA on system issues. Let's see how long it takes for our members to show renewed in system...

Yes. Our unit does our own fundraiser. We also advertise to our Scouts that they can participate in the council popcorn fundraiser with online sales. For those that participate, at the end of the fundraiser, the council gives us a check, with a list of the Scouts participating and how much is allocated to each Scout. We deposit it in the unit fund and credit their Scout accounts in Scoutbook. We have a Scout who did this for his first two years with us. He has not had to pay a single cent for any Scout-related costs, and has plenty of coin left to take him through his next few years. He has learned the value of getting out there and earning his way. And he fully understands that any fundraised money left over when he leaves the Troop goes to the general Troop fund, or is disbursed, as he wishes, to Scouts in the Troop who might need a little assistance.

The sad thing is that they will most likely try again when there are fewer people watching out to make an uproar, and they are in more dire states (never fixed the bad management) It will be sold just not today.

Yes, potential. And you have hit on the great failing of the professional side of the organization. Integrity, service, and excellence should be the mantra for BSA. It isn't. Would that it were so. When I served, there was a strong push on core values: CORE VALUES The common bond that unifies us all. We live and serve with a commitment to three core values. INTEGRITY FIRST An Airman is a person of integrity, courage and conviction. They must be willing to control their impulses and exercise courage, honesty and accountability in order to do what is right even when no one is looking. SERVICE BEFORE SELF An Airman’s professional duties take precedence over personal desires. Every Airman is expected to have the discipline to follow rules, exhibit self-control and possess respect for the beliefs, authority and worth of others. EXCELLENCE IN ALL WE DO An Airman strives for continual improvement in self and service in order to propel the Air Force further and to achieve greater accomplishment and performance for themselves and their community.

We held our AOL crossover this weekend. No reason to wait unto Feb with an 11 y/o and two 10 y/o who finished 4th grade in June. Two of them went to a troop that is going to a merit badge weekend in January. I need a little refresher/update on the merit badge process. We never used blue cards in my day. I think the Scout Handbook was our tracker for the Eagle required badges and we didn't really do others that couldn't be completed in a day. With a district the size of England (and perhaps Iceland?) and no internet, merit badge counselors were hard to come by, even if we could figure out the requirements or notice that they existed. If a Scout is working on a merit badge that can't be completed during an event, how does the progress get tracked, and by whom? I was a little concerned initially by his lack of interest in reading the Scout Handbook a couple months ago. After the crossover and on Sunday morning, he was in it, reading through the requirements for the Scout rank and making sure he knew the answers to everything. Now the trick is to kindle that spark and build the fire.

😞

I think the big one here is actively recruiting district level volunteers. The average volunteer obligation is 2-3 years; BSA has a policy statement that a volunteer obligation is 1 year (membership renewal to membership renewal). If the DE is not actively recruiting district members it just falls apart and then the DE ends up doing everything, and doesn't have time to recruit district members. Every subcommittee at the district level should have 7-9 members. I think off the top of my head the advancement committee is literally dictated in the GTA to have 12 members; my entire district committee is 8 (including the paid members). How does anyone run an affective district without opening the door and inviting in people to help? Is everyone in BSA a 90 year old bachelor fighting to open a pickle jar, too proud to ask for help? This is all tough right? I read this, I immediately pictured this as a few different units in my district. What I have seen is that they have a couple of bad leaders, they are clinch positions, they do it their own way without regard to the BSA way, without regard to safety and ypt, because of connections they never get hit with the naughty stick, and when they move on the unit is in such shambles, all of the other leaders have been taught to hate and distrust anyone outside the unit, and then the unit implodes due to all of the bad habits and insular paranoia.

Update 11/28/2024: "As the story goes, a local woman, Myra Greeno Bass, learned of scouting during a trip to England, where cavalry officer Robert (later Lord) Baden-Powell had founded the organization, and was so taken with the concept that she started a troop when she got home. That was in the spring of 1908, almost two years before the Boy Scouts of America was incorporated in February 1910. The rules at the time barred Bass from being scout master, so her husband, Billy, took the title, but “left most of the actual planning to his capable wife,” according to an account in a book on the 100th anniversary of the city being incorporated in 1890. (Note: this is also the first known instance of a BSA scoutmaster delegating to another volunteer! ) ...There hasn’t been a troop based in Burnside for years. Now local leaders are working to change that. “If you’re going to claim to be the first Boy Scout troop in America, you better have a Scout troop,” said Mayor Robert Lawson, who was himself a Scout. City leaders have discussed starting a troop with representatives of the Blue Grass Council of the Boy Scouts, which is headquartered in Lexington and covers 55 counties in Central, Southern and Eastern Kentucky..." More at source (including video): https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/kentucky-town-seen-as-the-birthplace-of-boy-scouts-in-the-us-tries-to-bring-back-troop/ar-AA1uUwpG

Lot of them currently listed on ebay

I sometimes find them at estate sales.

#1 Game systems and internet growth #2 Burnout by expanding to younger and younger ages. #3 Lack of perceived rich and rewarding program; whether caused by burnout or too much focus on leadership or just plan lack of focus on fun and adventure. Now, those 1990s kids are having kids and deciding there are better ways for their own kids to spend time. IMHO, little of the membership drop is about policies. It's about product and perception of the product.

Stay strong, defend your son. Once this investigation is over, if your son is reinstated to his position(s) I recommend accepting the reinstatements and then resigning after a short period (So the reinstatements are official, documented, and witnessed.). A few reasons for the eventual resignation(s), first to dissuade other false accusations by adding a cost to BSA (remember our #1 resource is volunteers), secondly to send a message that your son was volunteering and his time and commitment was as privilege to the BSA, and it's units. I hate false accusations, they weaken true reports by clouding the field, and the false accusers are never punished in a justifiable and fair manner for the damage they caused.