Any specific help appreciated; Scout Sunday and flags in church.

[skeptic]

Our new minister has asked us to do a flag ceremony in the sanctuary as part of our Scout Sunday participation. We are in a Methodist church, but cannot find anything specific relating to such activity. Have found a couple of things about the Christian flag, as well as the Navy tradition on ship and the pennant.

We have a Christian flag and American Flag in the sanctuary regularly, but they are rarely moved. I found one discussion about a procession with the cross and flags; the cross goes first, followed by the Christian flag, then the U.S. flag. The church flag is posted in the primary position it appears.

Just want to get the details clarified for my scouts, so they can prepare and do a good ceremony. Thanks for any help, especially actual printed material to get beyond simple opinion.

[walk in the woods]

Good reference at https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CDOC-109sdoc18/pdf/CDOC-109sdoc18.pdf.  Most details are in section 7 starting on page 12.  

 

The US flag should take the position of prominence on the speakers platform (to the speakers right/audience left) and in the procession (to the audience's right).  The flags will cross on the speaker's platform.  If you are carrying in a cross I'd recommend making it a separate procession.  Either bring the cross in to start the service then make the flag ceremony the first element of that service or hold the flag ceremony then bring the cross in to signify the start of services.

[Stosh]

As a former clergyman, here's my take on the issue.

 

First one has to decide where the flag is going to end up at the end of the procession. 

 

Then one needs to consider the architecture of the church.

 

Once that's all been established, one can start figuring out what to do. 

 

General considerations.

 

Older Methodist churches were designed with the focus of the speaker (altar area) in the corner rather than at a wall.  That meant there could be two aisles to consider.  This is good and would be easier and answer a lot of hassles about who goes first.  Facing the altar, the cross procession would go down the right aisle and the flags down the left with the American flag on the right of the two flags.  They would enter simultaneously and come down the aisle parallel to each other.

 

Newer Methodist churches are the traditional altar against the wall and one aisle (extra aisles on the side, too, but not processional aisles.)  Here I would have the cross enter first, one is in the Sanctuary of God's house at that point so the cross is dominant.  The two flags behind the cross bearer with the American flag on the right, Christian flag on the left.

 

Okay, we got into the church and up to the front.

 

1) If the flags are to remain on the floor of the Sanctuary (not up any steps up front) the American flag goes over to the right side of the congregation! and the Christian flag to the left side of the congregation.

 

2) If the flags are to go up the step to the speaker's level, then the American flag crosses over to the left (right of the speaker) and the Christian flag to the right side, American flag passing in front like a normal flag ceremony.

 

3) if the flags are to end up in the Apse area (inside the railing (if there is one) up the last step to the level of the Altar itself (Generally not a consideration in a Methodist church, but will apply in a liturgical church, i.e. Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc.) then the flags will end up with the Christian flag on the left side (to the speaker's right and the American flag on the right.)

 

Basically, US flag is on the congregations right if on the congregation's floor, to the speakers right if it is on the speaker's level and on the left of the altar when in the altar area behind the railing.  My guess would be the Methodists focus on the pulpit not the altar and commune in the pews so they wouldn't have a railing enclosed apse area.  Then all you need figure out if you go up steps the us flag is to the right of the speaker and if you do not go up steps, it goes to the right of the congregation.

[CalicoPenn]

Skeptic,

 

The federal flag code allows for the church pennant to be flown above the US flag on a US Navy ship at sea when church services are being conducted. This is a non-denominational thing which, as it was explained to me by my Uncle who was a sailor in the Korean War, is meant not to elevate the church above the state but to identify for sailors of nearby ships which denomination is holding services so that, if they can arrange it, they can participate, usually by radio.  For instance, if you're on a ship without a Catholic service, and a nearby ship is holding a Catholic service, the flag of the Catholic denomination is flown so that you can listen in (or even visit the boat if possible).

 

The National Flag Foundation (aka USFlag.org), which has no official standing, just a love of the flag, suggests that there is (or in other words, they made it up) a Christian Flag exception for all churches in which the Christian Flag (identified as a flag with a white field, a blue canton and a red latin cross in the canton) is given the superior position to the viewers left/speakers right during church services only - with the US Flag retaking the superior position (even in the sanctuary) when the church services are complete.  This is NOT part of the US Flag Code - this is something a private organization has decided is proper.

 

I would suggest discussing this with the Minister and asking what the preference is.  If he asks for your opinion, I would tell him what the flag code states - the US Flag is always to it's own right (if facing the audience with a speaker, to the audiences left - if part of the audience with no speaker to the audiences right) and that the Christian Flag will be set up either to the US flags left and the Troop flag set up to that flags left. If the Minister wants the Christian Flag to take the dominant position, then that's what you should do - but you should also make very clear to the boys that this is not part of the official flag code (and will never be part of the official flag code - it would be a violation of the 1st Amendment) and that this is a special circumstance.

 

Unless the Methodist church you're in has a tradition of leading a procession with a cross, I would leave that out (and I suspect there is no processional in the Methodist church).  Lead with the US Flag (unless going with the unofficial exception) and do a flag ceremony just as you would do any other.  I'm sure you noticed the mention already but don't forget the Troop's flag! (and if you have other Scouting units sponsored by that church - Packs, Crews, Venturers, Girl Scouting units - I would invite them to designate a carrier for their flags (if they have flags) too - Scout Sunday, while really strongly pushed by the Boy Scouts isn't limited to Boy Scouts - otherwise it would be called Boy Scout Sunday - it is Scout Sunday - and at least when I was a Scout, that included the Girl Scouts too.

 

The only thing I might not do is set flags at the speakers right and left - since you have at least 3 flags, I would set them all up at the right side of the "stage".

[blw2]

As a former clergyman, here's my take on the issue.

 

First one has to decide where the flag is going to end up at the end of the procession. 

 

Then one needs to consider the architecture of the church.

 

Once that's all been established, one can start figuring out what to do. 

 

General considerations.

 

Older Methodist churches were designed with the focus of the speaker (altar area) in the corner rather than at a wall.  That meant there could be two aisles to consider.  This is good and would be easier and answer a lot of hassles about who goes first.  Facing the altar, the cross procession would go down the right aisle and the flags down the left with the American flag on the right of the two flags.  They would enter simultaneously and come down the aisle parallel to each other.

 

Newer Methodist churches are the traditional altar against the wall and one aisle (extra aisles on the side, too, but not processional aisles.)  Here I would have the cross enter first, one is in the Sanctuary of God's house at that point so the cross is dominant.  The two flags behind the cross bearer with the American flag on the right, Christian flag on the left.

 

Okay, we got into the church and up to the front.

 

1) If the flags are to remain on the floor of the Sanctuary (not up any steps up front) the American flag goes over to the right side of the congregation! and the Christian flag to the left side of the congregation.

 

2) If the flags are to go up the step to the speaker's level, then the American flag crosses over to the left (right of the speaker) and the Christian flag to the right side, American flag passing in front like a normal flag ceremony.

 

3) if the flags are to end up in the Apse area (inside the railing (if there is one) up the last step to the level of the Altar itself (Generally not a consideration in a Methodist church, but will apply in a liturgical church, i.e. Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc.) then the flags will end up with the Christian flag on the left side (to the speaker's right and the American flag on the right.)

 

Basically, US flag is on the congregations right if on the congregation's floor, to the speakers right if it is on the speaker's level and on the left of the altar when in the altar area behind the railing.  My guess would be the Methodists focus on the pulpit not the altar and commune in the pews so they wouldn't have a railing enclosed apse area.  Then all you need figure out if you go up steps the us flag is to the right of the speaker and if you do not go up steps, it goes to the right of the congregation.

 

It's been a while since I studied the flag code, and I know Stosh, that you have tons of experience here so I WILL take your word for it.... (since I'm not gonna look it up this morning)

But I surely don't remember this bit about the flag staying to the congregation's right.

What I remember is that the flag when travelling stays to its own right.... what I always tell boys is that the US flag bearers left hand should point to the other flag(s).  Thinking that this applies to the flag, no matter which direction it is facing.

BUT when they are displayed in front of the congregation the US flag is know "facing" the congregation, so they must be crossed in order for the US flag's left hand to point to the other flags.

I suppose in what you are saying, the flag is looking to the speaker

But in my thinking this puts the US flag to the speakers subordinate left side (which it should be under the context of God comes first, if not considering the flag code... this is the part I think that gets confusing)

 

Re the cross, I have no idea, but to comment that it seems to me the suggestion to have separate ceremonies makes sense to me.  Probably flags first, then do the cross to start the religious ceremony it seems to me so that the country doesn't interrupt the religious ceremony, but the other way around might very well be the better answer since God comes first.

[John-in-KC]

Y'all are thinking this waaaay too much.

 

Honor God.  As Stosh says, that's simple.  The Processional Cross leads everything.

 

Honor the Nation.  Where does the parish place flags now?  The church is asking for support, not the Troop is asking to do something.  If they put a church flag in the position of honor vice the American flag, follow them. 

 

Frankly, I'd be more concerned uniforms fit, that uniforms are uniform (S-E wear MB sashes, Scout-FC don't, no OA sashes (or OA sashes), ad infinitum...  Make sure the kids show off to folks who normally don't see them (or who do, and don't know they're Scouts).

 

It's time for the Cub Scout Motto:  Keep It Simple, Make it Fun.

 

My 0.01.  Inflation, don't you know...

Edited December 30, 2015 by John-in-KC