Outdoor Adventure Training - How Would You Do It?

[Eagle94-A1]

@@JoeBob,

 

How about this.  Only what is in their pockets and a survival kit. Make them stay at the amnesty blanket for a while until contraband is given up. give them a series of bearings, compass or general 4 points, and instead of a marker, they get items for the weekend:, tarp, rope, garbage bags, cans of food, water, etc.

[desertrat77]

Eagle94,

 

When I read your post, I thought I read "give them a series of beatings" instead of "give them a series of bearings."    I guess that would be a good attention getter!

[Hedgehog]

Wow.  With all the talk in other threads about a lack of adults with experience in the outdoors, I didn't expect such negative reactions.

 

I like your idea.

You could call it WoodBadge...... oh wait, that name is already taken..... oh well I have faith you'll come up with something!

 

My understanding is that Wood Badge is more management training than outdoor adventure.

 

I can see this for new leaders, but Star Scouts? They should have had these topics covered already. I know T-2-1 requirements covers all of these topics, and cannot see how a one day course can expand those skills. MONTHLY CAMPING (emphasis) is the way to do it.

 

HOWEVER, if the course is designed to help the Scouts TEACH these skills at the troop level, I'm good. BUT it better be hands on.

 

I agree as to the linked program for scouts.  I told my son about it when I first heard of it at my IOLS training.  We were both excited.  Fast forward two and a half years -- my son is 13 and Star.  I asked him if he wanted to go and his response was "I could teach all that stuf."  He's right on that.  He also said that it should be for Second Class scouts.  I agree.

 

There are some things in there that aren't part of T-2-1 and I would include more of those things in the program.

 

My focus wasn't on the scouts but on getting adults open to more adventure so to make programs more interesting.

 

As Eagle94 says, the only practical way of learning outdoor skills is doing outdoor skills repeatedly on monthly camp outs. 

 

Shouldn't stuff like this be covered as part of a unit's monthly program in the outdoors? Building fires, foil cooking, animal awareness, Dutch oven cooking, astronomy, weather, survival, etc., are all part of our unit's annual plan. It is part of every meeting and every camp out.

 

Agreed, but how do we teach those skills to adults in units that don't have an effective outdoor program?

 

@@Hedgehog, I like your sense ... I think you may know what's coming from me next ...

 

Here's how I would run it:

 

***

 

When will we stop trying to re-invent the wheel?

 

I guess my thought was to have it be something that would get the adults interested and provide a base level of competence.  I understand that you think that adults should be able to earn ranks, but that is beyond my power to make that happen.

 

Knowing scoutcraft skills is one thing, but knowing the development dynmics of young males is quite a bit different.  Picking up on the scoutcraft is just learning to follow directions and practice on proficiency.  Knowing these factors and applying them requires more than book learnin' and hanging around observations.  

 

Just a basic class on understanding the boy-led, patrol-method concepts would be a lot more beneficial than being able to tie a bowline one handed.

 

OK, that was my IOLS training which was really well done and covered all the T-1st skills -- except maybe the one handed bowline.  I'm interested in going beyond this to get adults excited about the outdoor program.

[Hedgehog]

He was asking about outdoor adventure training ... for which we seem to have a delusion that some three hour gear-and-lecture plus training weekend will get an adult from 0 to 60 (60 being where some CO would trust that the trainee has something to offer his kid).

 

***

 

Read a handbook. Practice the handbook. Take your time. 

 

****

 

We talk boy-led, but we often ignore that boys could also lead earnest adults.

 

***

 

I'm not delusional in that a weekend will get them fully trained... just get them interested enough to go and learn more.  As for handbooks, the BSA handbook is worthless.  The Fieldbook is a lot better, but I'm go toward specific books on topics like backpacking and survival.  I think most adults would have a hard time ego-wise learning from a 13 to 16 year old.

 

Regardless of what we think should be done with adult training for the boy's adventures, wouldn't it simply be dictated by the choices the boys make?  If the boys want to backpack, the adults learn about that either on-line or take classes at the local sporting goods store.  They want to bike hike, then one bones up on what that is all about.  BWCA? More training on learning how to canoe, etc.  Some of the boys might already be miles ahead of the new adult leaders and even they could be instrumental in training them on what's needed.

 

A general, generic training to cover all aspects would be useless because it would be so watered down it would be cursory at best.

 

***

 

I'll take a single adult leader with a modicum of scoutcraft skills who understands boys,  over the hermit experienced woodsman any day.  I really find it surprising with the number of scouters who really don't understand boys very well.  Being a parent doesn't really qualify them in any way in this regard, and often times hiders it.

 

I agree that in-depth training is dictated by what the boys want but we all have to start somewhere.  What you call generic training, I call providing the basic building blocks.  As for understanding boys, I'm not sure that can be taught.

 

I have taken Powder Horn and that is close to the training you are asking about.  It is geared towards high adventure training and is very hands on for 2 3-day weekends.

 

Here is an example flyer from our council: http://www.bsacac.org/my_files/documents/110_2016_texas_powder_horn_flyer.pdf 

 

I hadn't hear about Powderhorn -- it sounds exactly like what I was thinking about.

 

What I'm saying: if anyone wants a generic program under BSA auspices, it already exists. It's called the trail to first class. Let adults walk it. Let the units they serve guide them through it. (Maybe give those JASMs some real jobs.   ) Then, let earning that rank make a scouter eligible for Star/Life/Eagle, Powderhorn, Woodbadge, or whatever.

 

Now, if you think T2FC, as delivered in a scouter's unit (maybe with a little outside help for new units) is not good enough to get adults on par with those basic outdoor skills, ask yourself one question: why are we wasting our boys' time asking them to go through it?

 

I think that T-1st is the basics and I learned most of that in IOLs.  My idea was something more advanced.

 

I'd start by getting the adults interested in the core outdoor skills.

 

***

 You lost me after hello.  I was hoping that this would be something that would get the adults more motivated to go in the outdoors.

 

 

Oh well, I thought it was a good idea.  I'm now going to go order some thowing knives and tomahawks for my son and I to play with in the back yard so I can be competent to supervise the activity on the next campout.

[Stosh]

Wow.  With all the talk in other threads about a lack of adults with experience in the outdoors, I didn't expect such negative reactions.

 

 

 

My understanding is that Wood Badge is more management training than outdoor adventure.

 

 

I agree as to the linked program for scouts.  I told my son about it when I first heard of it at my IOLS training.  We were both excited.  Fast forward two and a half years -- my son is 13 and Star.  I asked him if he wanted to go and his response was "I could teach all that stuf."  He's right on that.  He also said that it should be for Second Class scouts.  I agree.

 

There are some things in there that aren't part of T-2-1 and I would include more of those things in the program.

 

My focus wasn't on the scouts but on getting adults open to more adventure so to make programs more interesting.

 

 

 

Agreed, but how do we teach those skills to adults in units that don't have an effective outdoor program?

 

 

I guess my thought was to have it be something that would get the adults interested and provide a base level of competence.  I understand that you think that adults should be able to earn ranks, but that is beyond my power to make that happen.

 

 

OK, that was my IOLS training which was really well done and covered all the T-1st skills -- except maybe the one handed bowline.  I'm interested in going beyond this to get adults excited about the outdoor program.

 

And that was the point exactly.  I may have all the skills down pat, I might be able to tie the bowline one-handed with my eyes closed, I can set up any kind of tent on the market today and for the past 100 years, but do I know enough about boys and how they act and react away from home and in the woods to trust them to do and make the right decisions?  If I can't answer that question, I'm heading to the State Park and council camps instead of the back woods where there is plenty of immediate support and cell phone bars if needed.  Even if I might feel a bit comfortable with the woods doesn't mean I'm taking 20 unknowns with me that I am responsible for their safety.

[Hedgehog]

And that was the point exactly.  I may have all the skills down pat, I might be able to tie the bowline one-handed with my eyes closed, I can set up any kind of tent on the market today and for the past 100 years, but do I know enough about boys and how they act and react away from home and in the woods to trust them to do and make the right decisions?  If I can't answer that question, I'm heading to the State Park and council camps instead of the back woods where there is plenty of immediate support and cell phone bars if needed.  Even if I might feel a bit comfortable with the woods doesn't mean I'm taking 20 unknowns with me that I am responsible for their safety.

@@Stosh -- I agree.  The necessary leadership for more adventurous outings includes what I'd call technical competence and adult leadership skills (what you call understanding boys).  The second part can only be learned by experience working with the boys

 

I started as a Boy Scout leader with not much more experience than hiking and boating (row and sail boats) around our summer home when I was a kid, a handful of camp outs as a kid (maybe three not in a back yard), two car camping trips a year as a Cub Scout leader (if it didn't get rained out) and an interest in learning more.  Heck, I thought that adventure was what Boy Scouts was about.

 

In the past 2 1/2 years, I've camped around 60 nights and hiked or backpacked more than 200 miles -- the vast majority being with scouts and the rest with my son.  I've learned to kayak and canoe, I've read survival guides, I've learned how to baton wood and start a fire under any conditions, I've leared how to cook gourmet meals with a dutch oven or a backpacking stove.  

 

Based on my interest in adventure, our Troops's outdoor program kicked it up a notch.  We are now training the next set of adult leaders in both competence and understanding boys and boy-led by having them accompanying us on car camping trips and more adventurous outings.  So I get what you are saying.

 

My real question is -- what can we do to help other troops kick-start their adventure program? 

[Stosh]

"My real question is -- what can we do to help other troops kick-start their adventure program? " @@Hedgehog

 

You assume that it is the responsibility of the adults to develop the adventure part of the program.  I don't, I assume that role to the youth themselves.  I don't need to fine-tune MY skills, I need to assist the boys in helping them understand their role in fine-tuning THEIR sills.    This is why I believe developing an understanding of boys and how to facilitate this process is more important than simply learning a bunch of scoutcraft skills as a prerequisite to being a SM/ASM.

 

In a boy-led program, the onus of developing adventure should always be on the boys.  

 

I don't know how many times I have had to give "permission" to the boys to be their own leadership.  "Mr. Stosh, why can't we ever do....(fill inthe blank)?"  Me: "Who said you can't?"  

 

For boys of this age, this always comes as a surprise to them.  All their life they have been told what to do by adults, now for the first time in their lives they have a choice and haven't learned yet how to deal with that.  This is my job to help them through this process of change and start thinking like the adult they are becoming.

 

That is the point I am trying to make.  Where's the training on helping the scout leaders address this kind of dynamic in the development of their boys?  There isn't any and so it's just easier to keep the same-old, same-old adults telling the boys what's happening than it is to truly develop the character of young boys.

 

I'm going on a personal HA trip this weekend, what are you going to be doing?  To which the boys answer, we're having a LAN/Pizza party over to the PL's house where we can escape the reality of this world for some virtual electronic world where we get to do some great and fantastic things with our avatars.

 

Yeah, right.  Sign me up!

[Krampus]

 

My real question is -- what can we do to help other troops kick-start their adventure program? 

 

Depends on the unit. No need for WRFA if the troop is going to do plop camping only. No need for canoe instruction if they will never use them. No need for bear safety if they are never going to such areas. No need for RSO training if they never do those sports.

 

Units that *do* want to do those things can take various training courses. Most are outside of scouting. Some are part of scouting. The units just need to know 1) know what is required, 2) where to get the training, and 3) how often they need to recert. 

 

In my mind this is where the council and district could be of the most help.

[mashmaster]

 

 

My real question is -- what can we do to help other troops kick-start their adventure program? 

 

The way I see it is the training courses are:

1) Baloo : Basic camping planning for packs

2) OWLS : Outdoor training specifically targeted to jump starting a quality Webelos Problem

3) IOLS : Outdoor training specifically targeted to skills necessary for scouts up to First Class

4) Powder Horn: Outdoor training targeting High Adventure training for Venturing and Boy Scouts

 

Unfortunately, it seems that Powder Horn is very regional and not offered everywhere.  

[Krampus]

The way I see it is the training courses are:

1) Baloo : Basic camping planning for packs

2) OWLS : Outdoor training specifically targeted to jump starting a quality Webelos Problem

3) IOLS : Outdoor training specifically targeted to skills necessary for scouts up to First Class

4) Powder Horn: Outdoor training targeting High Adventure training for Venturing and Boy Scouts

 

Unfortunately, it seems that Powder Horn is very regional and not offered everywhere.  

 

Why not just have one level for Cubs. Get the training done once and over. Same for basic Boy Scouts. Then have advanced training for high adventure.

[Stosh]

Where's the profit in having one course when one can charge twice with two?

 

I would think that U of Scouting could handle some of this kinds of thing, but instead of 6-8 short cursory courses, have one intensive course that will cover a units' next year's major activity.  Even then, one day isn't going to be enough.

 

When I went to BWCA I commandeered my brother who had extensive BWCA experience to come and teach me how to do a major trek up there.  He came down on a weekend and went over everything from top to bottom on what was going to need to be done.  At that point I could decide whether I could handle it or not.  I in turn trained a number of scouts on the same material and now we had a core group of somewhat knowledgeable people capable to a successful trek.  It took a lot of time and energy for both adults and youth, but the boys pulled it off quite nicely.

[Hedgehog]

In a boy-led program, the onus of developing adventure should always be on the boys.  

 

There is a difference between theory and practice.  Boys can only handle that onus if they have been trained.  They can only be trained by older scouts if the older scouts have experienced it.  If there is no experience in using your imagination to determine what is possible, you will be stuck with the same as last year.  

 

So my first step would be to get adults interested and to develop skills.  If an adult isn't interested and doesn't have the skills, there is no way the Troop is going canoing, kayaking, snowshoeing, backpacking, rock climbing, etc.  The adult's inability kills boy led.  

 

Second step is to present options and ideas of what is possible.  How many times have I heard, "wait, we can do that?"  Those ideas generate more ideas from the boys - COPE, fishing, horseback riding, sleeping on a sailboat, etc.  If you have adults start the idea process and have adults willing to put the boys ideas into motion -- then you get a strong boy-led outdoor program.

 

The third step is to do it.  I think it is OK if the adults take the lead in planning the first couple of outings.  Then you start to shift it to more and more boy-led until the boys plan the entire outing (as my son is going to do with next summer's week-long backpacking trip). 

 

If a Troop doesn't have adults that are excited about the outdoor program, the Troop won't have an exciting outdoor program.  Telling the boys they can do whatever they want to -- when the reality is that they are limited by their adults excitement and training is a lie.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Hedgehog

[mashmaster]

Why not just have one level for Cubs. Get the training done once and over. Same for basic Boy Scouts. Then have advanced training for high adventure.

I see Baloo as being the most basic stepping stone for camping.  Many times OWLS is combined with Baloo by many districts.  

[Stosh]

There is a difference between theory and practice.  Boys can only handle that onus if they have been trained.  They can only be trained by older scouts if the older scouts have experienced it.  If there is no experience in using your imagination to determine what is possible, you will be stuck with the same as last year.  

 

Unfortunately that is not an across-the-board assumption one need make.  If one never bothers to ask the youth what they want to do, that in itself will take away the the dream and they will settle for last year's events because what's the point in doing anything that might really be a bit new and adventurous?

 

So my first step would be to get adults interested and to develop skills.  If an adult isn't interested and doesn't have the skills, there is no way the Troop is going canoing, kayaking, snowshoeing, backpacking, rock climbing, etc.  The adult's inability kills boy led.  

 

And of course the adults will develop skills THEY are interested in.  If the adults don't want to learn the skills, then the units will suffer for lack of support by the adults.  This goes on all the time.  This is how a lot of units work, they are limited to what the adults can do and the boys get to pick from that small pool of options.  This is why there is no adventure in scouting.  If I had to wait around for some adult to get interested in something before that option became available, I would quickly realize that there are other things out there that are readily available that I don't need to wait on some adult to come up with.

 

Second step is to present options and ideas of what is possible.  How many times have I heard, "wait, we can do that?"  Those ideas generate more ideas from the boys - COPE, fishing, horseback riding, sleeping on a sailboat, etc.  If you have adults start the idea process and have adults willing to put the boys ideas into motion -- then you get a strong boy-led outdoor program.

 

Boys can read BL and see what everyone else out there is doing.  They don't need to be led along by adults to know what's going on.  Again, simply making a short list of options of what the adults can do isn't a challenging and adventurous program.

 

The third step is to do it.  I think it is OK if the adults take the lead in planning the first couple of outings.  Then you start to shift it to more and more boy-led until the boys plan the entire outing (as my son is going to do with next summer's week-long backpacking trip).

 

And if the only thing the boys learn is that the adults will do the leading, why bother to learn it themselves?  Okay,1) canoeing, adults plan boys follow along.  Now 2) cloiming, adults plan, boys follow. 3) Backpacking, adults plan boys follow, 4) hiking, adults plan boys follow, 5)_Philmont, adults plan, boys follow, 6) Sea Base, adults plan, boys follow. 7) BWCA, adults plan boys follow.  So now the boys want to canoe.  Everyone that went on the big canoe trek have aged out, and the adults can simply start all over again, after all they have 7 years experience at it and the boy are more than happy must to follow along.  So much for the boy-led program.

 

If a Troop doesn't have adults that are excited about the outdoor program, the Troop won't have an exciting outdoor program.  Telling the boys they can do whatever they want to -- when the reality is that they are limited by their adults excitement and training is a lie.

 

Any troop that doesn't have excited adults about anything will not have any kind of program whatsoever, and since when does what interests the adults have anything to do with what interests the boys?????    I' thinking the dynamics mentioned here are just the opposite of what I do.  I find out what the boys want and then get my butt off the sofa and make sure I work with them to help them get what they want.  If the boys want to climb, I will find them an expert climber, have the boys get classes and learn what's necessary and then find adults that will get them out there and climb whatever they want to climb.  I won't be part of the climb because I don't like working higher than the 3rd or 4th run of a step ladder.  But I will see to it that my boys get what they want and need to be a good program.  Seriously, I will NEVER be excited about climbing, but I'm not going to limit my boys just because of my issues.

[Krampus]

I see Baloo as being the most basic stepping stone for camping.  Many times OWLS is combined with Baloo by many districts.  

 

Just from a time perspective, if we (as experienced scouters) were going to reorganize training, I'd hope we would do a few things:

1. Increase the value, decrease the time commitment.
2. Make the training complete and relevant.
3. Standardize how it is taught.
4. Increase availability.
5. Make re-certification easy and fast.
6. Eliminate redundancy.
7. If they cost money, make them cost-effective.

That's my input. I think much of the current training can be re-used, but let's eliminate things that may not be needed OR that could be combined if only to reduce the time we spend training.