Booted Out Of Scouting For Speaking Up

[wc153221]

I recently had a very troubling incident as an adult leader in scouting. I was the leader in charge of events at a camporee. At the leader meeting that we had on Friday night I apparently made a statement that I did not like our council exec. I do not remember making that statement but anyway, Two weeks or so later I was asked to have a meeting with a fellow scouter in our district. At that meeting I was told that the statement I had made about the council exec. had gotten back to him and that I could no longer no longer have any leadership roll in our council. No roundtable leadership, no leadership at council events. I was also on a NCAPS (National Camp Accredidation Program) camp assesment team that visited camps outside our council to make sure they were meeting national camp standards and I was removed from that. I could no longer serve as a camp host at any of our council camps. I emailed our council commissioner stating that his was kind of a crappy thing to do to a 25+ year leader. As a result of that email the council exec. emailed me to have a meeting. I declined because I truely feel that nothing would change as a result of the meeting. I accepted my fate and wanted to be done with this mess. The council exec. emailed me again threatneing me with being removed from scouting completely if I did not attend. I responded that I did not like being threatened and would not meet with him because what I had been told by the individual about me being booted out because I made a statement that I did not like him was true as the person that contacted me about the decision had no reason to not tell me the truth. I would like your comments on this because I cannot believe this type of thing could happen. I looked into possible legal action but most of the information states that dealing with the BSA is like screaming at a wall. All it does is wear you out and nothing changes. Other individuals that are aware of our council execs. and have had disputes with him have suggested that we all get involved with the board of directors to see if the council exec. can be removed. I can find nothing in Boy Scout literature that outlines the process for filing greivences with national when this type of thing happens. Anyway thanks for reading this and I will continue to serve our troop as much as I am allowed.

[Twocubdad]

It seems to me you broke your supper dish when you rather strongly declined the invitation to meet with the SE.  Maybe that meeting would have just been opportunity for them to beat up on you, but it may have been a attempt at resolution.

 

Either way, your right about screaming at a wall.  The SE has a great deal of discretion is such matters.

 

You should look for another opportunity for your volunteer work.

[Gone]

The document that outlines BSA's membership policies is Procedures for Maintaining Standards of Membership (#28-105). Good luck finding it. One would think the pdf would be readily available on the BSA website. Couldn't find it in a simple search.

[qwazse]

If you can't bring yourself to be on speaking terms with the professionals, why would you want leadership in the council?

 

I've never been in your shoes. I certainly disliked certain things that execs have done, and told them as much. But I never disliked them personally.

 

If you need a go-between, your charter-org rep is the one who signed off on your troop membership. Your committee are the ones who actually value you. (They may not value you much, but they might like to keep you around.)

 

Finally, I find when I can't remember having actually said something, it's time to start saying less.

[Gone]

I've been known to spout off about district and council, but I never make it personal...at least to people outside of my circle of friends. People love to gossip and the truth can get lost in the shuffle.

 

@@wc153221, sounds like your best bet is to get a copy of BSA's bylaws and membership policies. Check to see if they have the right to dismiss you from scouting for what they are alleging. My guess is since these docs are hard to find the execs may not know they exist either OR may make a mistake in following procedure. That may work in your favor.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[JoeBob]

This looks like your nemesis:

Xxxx Xxxxxxxxxx is the Scout Executive/CEO with the Boy Scouts of America, Xxxxx Council. In this role, Xxxx provides the leadership to the achievement of the council's philosophy, mission, and strategy, and to its annual objectives and goals within the 58 counties of [states withheld].

In 1990, Xxxx attained his Bachelors Degree majoring in Finance & Economics from the University of Tampa.

Xxxx has been with the Council since 2011. He started his Scouting career in 1993 as a district executive for Xxxxx Council in Xxx, Xxxx and worked his way up to Senior District Executive in 1996 and then Finance & Marketing Services in 1999 for Xxxxx Council in Xxxxx, Xxx. In 2000, Xxxx moved to Xxxxx council in Xxxxx, Xxxxxx to work as a Finance & Marketing Director. In 2004, he worked as Director of Field Service for Xxxxxx Council in Xxxxx, Xxxxxx. From 2007 to 2011, Xxxx had been the Scout Executive of Xxxxxx Council in Xxxxxr, Xxxxx.

 

If I'm reading this right, never a scout, started as DE with a Finance & Economics degree.

Bean counter from day one.

How long do SEs last before moving on?  Enjoy your vacation.

Edited May 20, 2015 by LeCastor

[desertrat77]

It seems to me you broke your supper dish when you rather strongly declined the invitation to meet with the SE.  Maybe that meeting would have just been opportunity for them to beat up on you, but it may have been a attempt at resolution.

 

Very true--the meeting with the SE would have been your very best avenue to stay in scouting.   It would have been unpleasant at first, as Twocubdad said, it may have ended with an olive branch.

 

If you follow the formal grievance process, my hunch will be the BSA will side with the council, offering your refusal to meet as further proof of a long personal feud that was not in the best interest of scouting.  

 

My humble two cents:   because this seems to me (reading between the lines) a longstanding feud, if you want to stay in scouting, in some capacity, reach out to the SE and ask if he/she will still agree to meet.   If so, go the meeting and take the spanking.  No quibbling--yes sir/no sir/three bags full.   Apologize where apologies are due, bury the hatchet and ask to press forward.    If you can't see your way clear to do that, then JoeBob said it best--enjoy the time off.   The formal grievance process will be long, painful, expensive and will not result in anything positive for any party involved.   Best wishes.

Edited May 19, 2015 by desertrat77

[jr56]

I agree that you should have met with the SE.   No exchange of thoughts is not going to resolve anything.  Scout Executives have almost unlimited power over their councils.   If you try to appeal to Regional or National,  about the only way you can get the issue resolved in your favor, is if you can prove that the SE violated national BSA policy in rendering their decision.   I agree that unless you can resolve this issue through constructive dialog with the scout executive, enjoy your time off until an new one comes along.

[Gone]

I agree that you should have met with the SE.   No exchange of thoughts is not going to resolve anything.  Scout Executives have almost unlimited power over their councils.   

 

Unlimited? 

 

 

Scout Executive Although responsibility for Scouting is vested in volunteer leaders, a vital part of the movement is lodged in the comparatively small but well-trained group of professional Scouters. The Scout executive is commissioned by the Boy Scouts of America, selected by the council executive board, and serves under its direction. He or she is the council secretary for all of its council committees, although he or she may delegate this responsibility to members of the professional staff. He or she appoints and supervises all employees of the council, subject to the approval of the council executive board. He or she recognizes and is committed to the predominant and vital role of volunteer Scouters at all levels in fulfillment of their responsibilities. He or she maintains standards in the operation, program, and administration of the council.sd

Source

Edited May 19, 2015 by Bad Wolf

[JoeBob]

From Mozart's source:

***

Scout Executive

The Scout executive:

• Provides support and guidance in following the council’s strategic plan

• Serves as the council’s commissioned professional and the CEO/executive director

• Serves as a member of the council Key 3

• Acts as secretary for all council committees

• Hires and supervises all employees of the council, subject to approval by the council executive board

• Works with volunteer Scouters on all levels to achieve the council’s mission

• Maintains standards in the operation, program, and administration of the council

• Executes the decisions of the council within the national BSA guidelines

***

I don't see where the SE has the authority to remove a Scouter.  You're a volunteer, right?  Not an employee.

The SE may pressure other volunteers to not use you.  But they don't work for him, either.

If the Council Exec board decides to lose you, you're gone; from volunteering in that council.

 

Kicked out of scouting?  Seems like there would have to be a disciplinary process or something to revoke your membership.  Can BSA choose to not renew you?  I think you could at least ask for a public hearing.  And if you're denied a hearing, you can make that denial public.

 

Here's another place to put y our zeal to work:

http://www.traillifeusa.com/connect/forum/nebraska/nebraska/

[packsaddle]

Very true--the meeting with the SE would have been your very best avenue to stay in scouting.   It would have been unpleasant at first, as Twocubdad said, it may have ended with an olive branch.

 

If you follow the formal grievance process, my hunch will be the BSA will side with the council, offering your refusal to meet as further proof of a long personal feud that was not in the best interest of scouting.  

 

My humble two cents:   because this seems to me (reading between the lines) a longstanding feud, if you want to stay in scouting, in some capacity, reach out to the SE and ask if he/she will still agree to meet.   If so, go the meeting and take the spanking.  No quibbling--yes sir/no sir/three bags full.   Apologize where apologies are due, bury the hatchet and ask to press forward.    If you can't see your way clear to do that, then JoeBob said it best--enjoy the time off.   The formal grievance process will be long, painful, expensive and will not result in anything positive for any party involved.   Best wishes.

 

When I'm in a conflict with someone like this, it is part of my personal code of conduct to make sure I listen to everything they have to say. That means meeting with them. If the room is friendly, resolve the conflict then and there. If the room is filled with intimidation, just sit back and listen. Don't say a word and take careful notes of what is said. If they ask for a response give them as littlle information as possible. Everything they say is information. You can use it at will. Everything you say is a gift of information they don't necessarily deserve to get. Be stingy with it.

Be Prepared to walk away from the whole thing. If that's what you decide to do, merely get up and leave. No need for further words and it will leave them guessing as to what you plan to do if anything. Never make threats. Never give warnings. (also from my code)

 

I confess that if I read the situation correctly there's no way in h*** that I could respond in any way that I felt was dishonest about my thoughts or feelings. I might choose not to respond but if I didn't think they deserved an apology there's no way I'd give it just to have the privilege of continuing to work for nothing. Might be time to pull back and focus closer on family or something similar.

 

If JoeBob's sleuthing is correct, he's right, the guy is a bean counter pretty much like I suspect most of them are. You made your mistake mouthing off in an intemperate manner and I completely sympathize with that situation (been there, done that).  But now it's time to pay the piper. So be true to your thoughts and take whatever comes.

If you get that meeting, collect their comments in your notes and if there's something there to use with National, take your best shot, craft it carefully to inflict the greatest impact. You'll only get one chance this good. (another from my personal code of conduct)

Edited May 19, 2015 by packsaddle

[Stosh]

Welcome to the world of vindictive politics.

 

It doesn't make a bit of difference what you might have said.  People on a rant will work only to accomplish their goal.  You are at a level 5 conflict and there's no hope of resolution.  Even if you go to court and win, the SE and his political minions will make your efforts for the boys worthless.

 

I know it's not what one wants to hear in a situation like this, but sometimes it just isn't worth the effort on an empty victory.  

 

When I was young and foolishly idealistic, I believe benevolent organizations like churches and Boy Scouts where they have clear missions of caring would not be like this.  I figured this kind of stuff happens in government and cut-throat corporate America.  Oh how silly I was.  If one turns over enough rocks they're going to find the truth and it ain't always pretty.  

 

Best of luck with your efforts in whatever you decide to do.

[desertrat77]

I confess that if I read the situation correctly there's no way in h*** that I could respond in any way that I felt was dishonest about my thoughts or feelings. I might choose not to respond but if I didn't think they deserved an apology there's no way I'd give it just to have the privilege of continuing to work for nothing. Might be time to pull back and focus closer on family or something similar.

 

So be true to your thoughts and take whatever comes.

I concur with Packsaddle, but wanted to highlight these areas specifically.   If an apology is not in order, don't offer one just to smooth things over.   I can't think of any job in scouting that would be worth the scar on the conscience, particularly the ones you mentioned.  

 

If you get the chance to meet, test the waters.   If it's a genuine effort on the council's part to resolve things, fine, it will be obvious early on in the meeting.   However, if it seems they are trying to just humiliate you, or string you along ("we'll think about it"), cut bait and go home.   Again, no job in scouting is worth that heartache, particularly a volunteer one.

Edited May 19, 2015 by desertrat77

[BadenP]

As a former DE at one council I went through 3 SE's in 5 years, the first one put the council into financial turmoil, and got himself promoted to a bigger council, the second SE was fired for embezzlement of council funds, and the third sold off the council camp and other assets in order to pay the debt from the first guy before he was transferred to National. Do SE's have power, yes as long as National backs them up and keeps  promoting their incompetence. Once you make SE ,unless you commit a major crime, National will just keep transferring you around until its time for you to retire. So to get back on topic most SE's could care less about their volunteers, unless they see some benefit directly for themselves.

[SSScout]

Document, document, document.

 

Get others to listen to your story, find out if they saw the same conversation you saw. Do you really know who your friends are?

Seek the SE's meeting, say you mistook his initial invitation for something else. He may well not know what is going on

around him and would benefit from a truth teller. What do you really have to lose? To whom is your reputation important?

As has been said, you are a volunteer, (t)he(y) can't fire you, but they can get other Scout professionals to make it harder for you to volunteer. "A Scout is loyal" but to whom? To the fellow that signs THEIR paycheck.

If the SE in question has provided the Council with reason to believe the Council would be better off without him, it will

take a groundswell of CORs voting on it to happen. Possible? yes, the corporate legalese makes it possible. Probable? Ummmmmmmmm , mebbe not.

 

Good Scouting to you, none the less.

 

If this is just a slip of the tongue in public of that which would better have been said in private, the deed is done, and as has been said, might be best to move on.