Boy Scouts march in Utah Gay Pride Parade

[Peregrinator]

Who determines when a parade is political or not?

Not the person marching in it.

[fred johnson]

Horizon ... You are being deliberately obtuse.

 

Columbus Day? MLK? Cinco De Mayo? None of those are hot button political topics. Participation is a celebration and patriotic and is not controversial. Everyone rational scouter knows BSA would approve marching in those.

 

Marchers in the previously mentioned parades KNOW it is controversial, KNOW that BSA does not want them using BSA images in such events, KNOW it's a political hot button topic and are using BSA for their own agenda. BSA has communicated multiple times to multiple people and many of the specific marchers.

 

If they do not want to follow the BSA lead, then they should be removed. Period. And anyone who wants to change the course of any organizations knows that's the risk you pay to protest your own organization.

 

But mistakes do happen. Robert Bolingbroke should not have used his scouting title or credentials when participating in the political topic. He was probably asked because of his Boy Scout alignment. He does have first admentment rights and he should have been more careful then injecting a visible Boy Scout leader into the process. I suspect BSA national did have a conversation with him about it.

 

[Horizon]

Civil rights is not a hot button political topic? Not familiar with something called affirmative action, are you? Martin Luther King day events are VERY political.

Apparently the immigration debate has passed you by as well, or you would realize how political a Cinco de Mayo march can get.

 

Finally - there is little MORE political that political party national convention.

 

I am not being obtuse - I am pointing out that we are happy to attack those who are in the Pride parade, based on it being gay and controversial.

 

I fully understand what the BSA will approve, and I doubt that Bolingbroke got more than a wink, nod and a side comment at most. After all, he was anti-Gay and that is OK in the BSA (to pull a little rhyme into this).

 

Seriously, obtuse? That word, it does not mean what you think it means. The obtuse ones are those that think that the only political parades are those with gays, and not national party events. THAT is being obtuse.

 

What I am engaged in is a bit of Socratic questioning, to help identify the real issue (is it politics, hot button issues, or just icky gay people?). That is why I ask the questions. Everyone wants to scream and throw insults instead of THINKING. Get mentally awake.

[AZMike]

This is from the NY parade. I'm sure their participation was in no way "political."

 

It's sad, but there were people arguing for admitting gays into the BSA on this forum who were insisting this kind of thing would never - never! - happen.

[fred johnson]

Horizon ... Argumentative. I used the definition correctly. But you did not use the definition of Socratic correctly. If you had, you would have more questions and quite a bit fewer statements and assertions.

 

If you want social change, fine. That is very respectable. If you want to participate in an organization that you disagree with their policies, fine. There is usually a workable middle ground.

 

But if you want social change that contradicts with your church and you hijack their pulpit without permission, then don't be surprised when you are shown the door.

 

The scout uniform is BSA's pulpit.

[Scouter99]

It's sad' date=' but there were people arguing for admitting gays into the BSA on this forum who were insisting this kind of thing would never - never! - happen.[/quote']

Liars or delusional?

[packsaddle]

 

It's sad, but there were people arguing for admitting gays into the BSA on this forum who were insisting this kind of thing would never - never! - happen.

 

Who were these people who insisted this kind of thing would never - never! - happen? Names please, quotes, thread references?

[NJCubScouter]

Yes, AZMike, I'd be curious to see your answer to Packsaddle's question as well.

[AZMike]

Sure. Can I ask your opinions on the issues raised by the photograph (use of LGBT rainbow paraphernalia as part of the "official" uniform as part of a partisan political event, first?

[King Ding Dong]

My understanding is scouts may choose and design their own neckers.

[AZMike]

On 2/9/2013, I posted: 1) Participation in gay-themed events?
Three scouts who have come out as gay join your troop. They want to participate in a local Gay Pride parade (such as this one: http://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/03/world/in-canada-gay-pride-can-be-part-of-scouts-honor.html) in uniform. Some of the straight scouts object to the unit appearing to support such an activity. It doesn't appear to be overtly political or partisan. You're a little uncomfortable yourself after looking at the themes of some of the floats in the parade, and some of the groups sponsoring the floats. Their parents are okay with their participation, and are encouraging them to march. They want to hand out recruitment flyers for your troop as they march. Do you say okay? If not, why not?

The response:

CalicoPenn: I thought about responding to each point but frankly most of your questions and concerns are based on a flawed initial premise in the first place - that homosexuality is intrinsically about sex - that it's just not worth it. Instead, I would ask, how will you deal with people that show such an abundance of ignorance that they come up with this kind of bigotry cloaked in "concerned questions".

TwoCubDad: A lot of your stuff is pretty out there, Mike. Fact is with a local option you get to decide what's over the line. BLT (whatever) parade? No. Transgender girl? No. Creepy adult. No. You can beat around all the political issues you like, but the bottom line for me is THIS IS A FRIGGIN' SCOUT TROOP and I don't get paid to deal with all the fallout and crap which will come from the above.

CambridgeSkip: Gay Pride etc. To be honest this has never come up. I've never had scouts that want to go. If I did I guess I would risk assess it like I would any other activity or event. What will happen there? What is the likely age range? What are the numbers like? How many adults will I need? Is it appropriate? I am aware of gay pride events that are relatively conservative in nature which I think I would be happy for them to attend and equally I know of events that are overtly sexual in their nature where I don't think I would happy for them to go as I don't think it is appropriate. Take it as it comes.

[i would note that these are some of the photos from the event the BSA troops participated in New York. Does this look like an event that is relatively conservative in nature?]





[i apologize if these are offensive and moderators can feel free to remove them if they violate TOS. But ask yourself the question: If these (and the many photos too disgusting to post of nudity, men wearing leather chaps and nothing else, various S&M accoutrements, etc. which were easy to find by googling "New York Gay Pride Parade 2014") are too offensive to post on this site - then WHAT THE %^#$ WERE THOSE SCOUTS DOING MARCHING IN THE PARADE? WHAT WERE THE ADULT LEADERS THINKING???]

Packsaddle: Referring to the OP again, I think most of the problems will be with the adults and the adult perceptions. All this worry over tenting, camporees, adult appearances, etc. seems to be mostly a search for problems as opposed to solutions.

Moosetracker: Thanks Cambridgeskip, you throw a bucket of reality upon the flames of panic & fear..

BadenP: AZ Mike - Your premise is purely fear motivated nonsense. Local Option means that the units leadership and CO will set the parameters of what is or is not allowable activities. National is abdicating that responsibility because they have lost their vision and lack the guts to declare what scouting should be on a National basis. IMO it is the most cowardly and gutless move National has ever done, and it shows me Nationals professional scouting has reached its end and is time to dissolve it once and for all. The last thing anyone needs to fear is a sudden overwhelming mass of gay youth and adults rushing to join the BSA...[in a later post] AzMike, It is not prudent discussing how we individual units will make our determinations of what is proper or not proper activities. Local option means exactly that, it is for the owners of the units to decide and not a concensus of the entire membership. As I said since National has lost their decision making ability and buried their heads in the sand it is now in the hands of the CO's to be the guardians of the units scouting values. In the long run this could result in scouting becoming a stronger organization but it is going to be a long and bumpy road.

[The answer of many of you posting at that time was that the holy grail of the Local Option would solve all problems. So, if Scouters in New York want to have their Scouts march in a parade of nutjobs like the ones posted above under the hypothetical local option that never happened...what does that do to the "brand" of scouting overall? Do those photos have an impact on how Scouts in your local troop will be perceived?]

Fehler: Scouts and Scouters cannot use the uniform of Scouting in political events or to promote political campaigns. Is a Gay Pride Parade a political campaign? I don't think so, no more so than a Latin American cultural event is the same as a pro-immigration rally, or any 4th of July parade is just a collection of politicians walking three blocks throwing stale candy at a bunch of sweaty babies. Now, if the event was a rally in support of specific gay rights/marriage legislation, I would remind those taking part that they may perform civic activities (lead a flag ceremony), but after that the uniform shouldn't be used.

DadScouts: I agree the practical problems mentioned will, in 99% of all cases, either not be a problem or the problem is easily solved or decided upon.

Now, I can post more on the responses to concerns on BSA participation if you want me to, and can make this my hobby for the next week or so. The search engine for this site is lousy, and many posts from years back are corrupted, as I found when I looked. Do you really want to deny that people pooh-poohed the idea that this was coming, though?


 

Edited July 23, 2015 by FScouter

[Horizon]

My understanding is scouts may choose and design their own neckers.

 

They can. Many units choose their own, and many units allow Patrols to make their own as well. Great way to show pride in your group.

 

Oops. I used the word pride. Can't have that.

 

I note the word "partisan" as well. Not sure what is partisan, other than that the Democratic Party has recently tried to jump on the bandwagon (Obama was against gay marriage before he was for it after all. Eric Holder defended DOMA, then supported gay marriage. etc).

 

The Boy Scouts for Equality (the name of their group per the NYC Pride page) was joined by Corporations (Wal Mart, Chipotle, Macys, Marriott, Penguin Random House), some sports leagues (soccer, rugby and softball at a glance), Religious groups ( Eastern Orthodox, A Baptists, Catholics, several Jewish groups), plus the usual politicians. The Democratic Party did appear to have more marchers - not surprised for both a gay event and one in New York City. Disappointed the Log Cabin Republicans were not there.

 

You can peruse the list of marching groups here: http://www.nycpride.org/uploads/OrderofMarchbySection.pdf

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Although this is officially something that should not happen, as this group has created the appearance of speaking for BSA, it would be difficult to chastise the scouts and leaders for participation. We do have to practice what we preach ...

A Scout is Brave. A Scout can face danger although he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him.

[Horizon]

I do agree that the overly sexual nature of many of the marchers does make me uncomfortable. If I were marching, I would ask to be well separated from those groups (I can't tell from the pride site if that is something that they did or not). It appears that the Scouts were in the lead, following only the bikers. I could easily be wrong.

 

For a parade, this is the same as, regardless of their right to march, I don't want to be followed by or nearby the Klan or any other racist group at other events.

[Huzzar]

How did the Klan get in here? Let me emphasize something AZMike said, the pictures he posted are as tame as you get in that parade. Why on earth would a Scout leader think participating in that kind of event would persuade anyone that the BSA is wrong to bar homosexual men from membership.