Pros and Cons of the Junior Assistant Scoutmaster position

[apothecus]

This is my first "real" post in the forums so if it is in the wrong place, please let me know and I will repost in a different section. In April, I will be starting up a new Boy Scout Troop. I will have 11 boys, none with more than 1 year experience as a Boy Scout. I have been approached by a young man who will turn 16 in April who asked about joining the troop as a Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. He is an Eagle Scout who has previously been a SPL in his troop. He has been attending a troop out of town for the last 5 years as he wanted to be in a faith based troop (only troop in town prior to mine has been more secular in nature). Due to issues with travel, he wants to try out a troop closer to home. I know this young man’s family, and he is a good kid with strong moral character. That being said, I have no problem having him in the troop. I am just curious about everyone’s experience with having a JASM. What are the pros and cons you have seen with this position? I have read differing opinions but thought I would ask the group.

[Stosh]

Apothecus,

 

I'm a SM with 30 years in the field with Scouts. There is only one POR more worthless than SPL and that's JASM. It's too generic. I would instead focus this scout into a specific area of need. If you want him to wear the patch JASM, fine, but define his roles more specifically.

 

If I were in your position, I would make the exception of SPL and have him operate as a SPL/TG/Instructor for the two patrols. He could TG the two new patrols in the patrol-method, while instructing and supporting the 2 PL/APL teams in leadership. Maybe he's the JASM assigned with developing the patrol-method for the troop or something like that.

 

My observation for JASM has been in troops where a scout will Eagle and then "retire" with a neat patch and no responsibilities. Is it any wonder they drop out?

 

So, what value is it to have the most experienced boy sitting around waiting for the SM to give him something to do (ASM), when he can have his sleeves rolled up helping the young boys benefit from his knowledge and experience.

 

I just started a new troop of Webelos cross-overs and would love to have your situation. But, alas, no older boys wanted in on the project. But if I did, he would be working with the boys as the TG, training the boys in the patrol-method as Instructor and developing patrol leadership with TLT/JLT and Green Bar Bill training type program as SPL. Then he's there to support the boys in any and all needs they may have at any given time. Then as SM you can step back, tweak here and there and have a real boy-led program.

 

I am pretty much a functional oriented SM. POR patches really don't mean a whole lot to me unless the boy is really doing the job. I find most just get elected/assigned a position and then wait out their time to get credit for advancement.

 

Stosh

[Sentinel947]

It's a useful position for Senior Scouts when you want to open up Instructor or Guide positions for younger Scouts. But it's most useful when your unit is low on Assistant Scoutmasters. Use a JASM for special projects and to mentor younger leaders. Your question is fine here and doesn't need to be moved or reposted.

[Sentinel947]

It's a useful position for Senior Scouts when you want to open up Instructor or Guide positions for younger Scouts. But it's most useful when your unit is low on Assistant Scoutmasters. Use a JASM for special projects and to mentor younger leaders. Your question is fine here and doesn't need to be moved or reposted.

But for such a young small troop why have him as a JASM? Why not PL? Or guide?

[apothecus]

The JASM was the scout's suggestion. My initial thought was for him to be a guide or instructor. I told him I wanted to give his suggestion some consideration before giving him an answer. I want the boys to choose their PL rather than having him fulfill that role. With a young troop, it would be great to have an older, experienced Scout in the mix. I just need to find a role for him that will keep him interested, engaged, and challenged (I don't think PL will do that) but also help me with developing a new troop and mentoring these young scouts.

[Sentinel947]

The JASM was the scout's suggestion. My initial thought was for him to be a guide or instructor. I told him I wanted to give his suggestion some consideration before giving him an answer. I want the boys to choose their PL rather than having him fulfill that role. With a young troop, it would be great to have an older, experienced Scout in the mix. I just need to find a role for him that will keep him interested, engaged, and challenged (I don't think PL will do that) but also help me with developing a new troop and mentoring these young scouts.

I think with such a small troop he might be much more influential in being a Troop Guide than a JASM. If he comes from a larger troop where there is more of a need.

 

I think with 11 Scouts you have enough Scouts for 2 Patrols. + your senior Scout as a Troop Guide/or Instructor. If he was a JASM you would end up needing him to fill those roles anyways. Titles aren't terribly important. More importantly is figuring out what roles YOU need him to play and what roles HE wants to play. Then make the title match as closely as possible.

 

Don't get to focused on what title he's gonna have, but focus on what the troop needs and what he wants to do.

[Eagledad]

You didn't say the age of the other scouts, but if they are young (13 and under) I think JASM is the appropriate position because he really is more of an adult than older scout. I also think a 16 year old scout with his experience needs to be used as an adult to be challenged to grow. You and this scout could work as an equal team to learn the ropes of scout mastering. But don't assume that both of you will grow equally with the program. I have been in a similar situation and the clear difference between you and this scout is your experience as an adult in real life situations, and experience as a responsible parent. Trust me this young man has much to gain from your maturity. I would approach him as his mentor to grow as an adult, and a team member of developing you new troop. Remember, your are still his scoutmaster, but strength in your humility will help both him and the program mature to their full potential. I wish you luck in your new adventure. It will change your life and last you forever. Barry

[qwazse]

Back in my day, JASMs did guide the troop. Since the boy is all about faith-based stuff, maybe he can be the troop chaplain's aid. He could do a presentations for boys and parents about religious awards. Whatever, put him to work and encourage him to chip away at his next palm.

[desertrat77]

Sounds like he wants to lead, which is a good thing.

 

I'd ask him to be the first SPL in the new troop. As a graduated SPL, his experience would be invaluable. He can train the new PLs, and set them up for SPL duties in the future. Then he can get the JASM patch.

 

Just a hunch, but I doubt he would be very motivated by being anything that isn't "line" leadership. Probably the only reason he's asking to be JASM is he sees it as a natural progression toward SM, and something a graduated SPL would do.

 

For a new troop, a strong SPL is more important than a JASM. Once a new generation of PLs/SPLs is ready, he'll be ready for JASM.

 

As a scout, I found the SPL duties very challenging yet rewarding. The SM did not interact with the scouts much, except at strategic times. He was there at the start of the meeting, and the close. In the outdoors, he stayed in the background. When I moved to JASM, I was training the new SPL and the SM was training me to be an ASM. Worked out pretty good.

[qwazse]

Sounds like he wants to lead, which is a good thing.

 

I'd ask him to be the first SPL in the new troop. As a graduated SPL, his experience would be invaluable. He can train the new PLs, and set them up for SPL duties in the future. Then he can get the JASM patch.

 

Just a hunch, but I doubt he would be very motivated by being anything that isn't "line" leadership. Probably the only reason he's asking to be JASM is he sees it as a natural progression toward SM, and something a graduated SPL would do.

 

For a new troop, a strong SPL is more important than a JASM. Once a new generation of PLs/SPLs is ready, he'll be ready for JASM.

 

As a scout, I found the SPL duties very challenging yet rewarding. The SM did not interact with the scouts much, except at strategic times. He was there at the start of the meeting, and the close. In the outdoors, he stayed in the background. When I moved to JASM, I was training the new SPL and the SM was training me to be an ASM. Worked out pretty good.

Rat, although I agree that SPL is challenging if you have to run herd over three or more PLs, this isn't even a two patrol troop. Who cares what patch is on the boy's sleeve?

[desertrat77]

Sounds like he wants to lead, which is a good thing.

 

I'd ask him to be the first SPL in the new troop. As a graduated SPL, his experience would be invaluable. He can train the new PLs, and set them up for SPL duties in the future. Then he can get the JASM patch.

 

Just a hunch, but I doubt he would be very motivated by being anything that isn't "line" leadership. Probably the only reason he's asking to be JASM is he sees it as a natural progression toward SM, and something a graduated SPL would do.

 

For a new troop, a strong SPL is more important than a JASM. Once a new generation of PLs/SPLs is ready, he'll be ready for JASM.

 

As a scout, I found the SPL duties very challenging yet rewarding. The SM did not interact with the scouts much, except at strategic times. He was there at the start of the meeting, and the close. In the outdoors, he stayed in the background. When I moved to JASM, I was training the new SPL and the SM was training me to be an ASM. Worked out pretty good.

Right now, no one in the troop will care much about the patch. But if the new scouts see a senior scout as SPL, and what he brings to the troop, they can attach some credence to the patch. Something for them to aspire to, and establish troop culture.

[Kudu]

1) Most important: Start a cuss jar. The word "Troop" costs a dollar.

 

Apothecus, you owe $8 for your first post alone

 

2) Next on the "To Do" List: The best feature of the current Patrol Leader Handbook is the spiral binding, which allows you to tear out all the Wood Badge anti-Hillcourt disinformation!

 

So turn to Chapter 3. "Your Patrol and Your Troop" and rip out all those nasty pages:

 

Page 35 with the FAKE Baden-Powell Troop Method quote.

Page 36-37 with the Troop Organizational Charts.

Page 38 with the Troop Method six month elections.

Page 39-40 with the Troop Method "Three Types of Patrols."

Page 41-46 with ALL those pretty Troop Method patches.

 

3) To paraphrase Qwazse, what you have is a 12 Scout Patrol. So why not use Hillcourt's "Real Patrol" Method?

 

 

a) Use your cuss jar money to get a copy of Hillcourt's Handbook for Patrol Leaders. About $4 on AddAll:

 

http://preview.tinyurl.com/kw4v2a9

 

 

b) If you can trust the 16yo, have him camp his Patrol Baden-Powell's 300 feet from the adult Patrol, to simulate the handbook's real Patrol Overnights (Chapter 7). Have him lead his Patrol Hikes without adult helicopters on your monthly campouts, to simulate the handbook's real Patrol Hikes (Chapter 6).

 

c) Try Hillcourt's Patrol Leader course: "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol"

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

 

4) The only real way to train your future Patrol Leaders is for them to experience a "Real Patrol," and you have a rare opportunity to do so.

 

 

The "Real Patrol" Method is outdoor adventures led by your most competent Scout as Patrol Leader.

 

 

Everything else is the Troop Method.

[desertrat77]

1) Most important: Start a cuss jar. The word "Troop" costs a dollar.

 

Apothecus, you owe $8 for your first post alone

 

2) Next on the "To Do" List: The best feature of the current Patrol Leader Handbook is the spiral binding, which allows you to tear out all the Wood Badge anti-Hillcourt disinformation!

 

So turn to Chapter 3. "Your Patrol and Your Troop" and rip out all those nasty pages:

 

Page 35 with the FAKE Baden-Powell Troop Method quote.

Page 36-37 with the Troop Organizational Charts.

Page 38 with the Troop Method six month elections.

Page 39-40 with the Troop Method "Three Types of Patrols."

Page 41-46 with ALL those pretty Troop Method patches.

 

3) To paraphrase Qwazse, what you have is a 12 Scout Patrol. So why not use Hillcourt's "Real Patrol" Method?

 

 

a) Use your cuss jar money to get a copy of Hillcourt's Handbook for Patrol Leaders. About $4 on AddAll:

 

http://preview.tinyurl.com/kw4v2a9

 

 

b) If you can trust the 16yo, have him camp his Patrol Baden-Powell's 300 feet from the adult Patrol, to simulate the handbook's real Patrol Overnights (Chapter 7). Have him lead his Patrol Hikes without adult helicopters on your monthly campouts, to simulate the handbook's real Patrol Hikes (Chapter 6).

 

c) Try Hillcourt's Patrol Leader course: "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol"

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

 

4) The only real way to train your future Patrol Leaders is for them to experience a "Real Patrol," and you have a rare opportunity to do so.

 

 

The "Real Patrol" Method is outdoor adventures led by your most competent Scout as Patrol Leader.

 

 

Everything else is the Troop Method.

Upon reflection.....

 

Kudu, well said. Given the number of scouts, and the opportunity to use the Green Bar patrol ideals with fresh minds, emphasis on the patrol is the way to go.

[RememberSchiff]

1) Most important: Start a cuss jar. The word "Troop" costs a dollar.

 

Apothecus, you owe $8 for your first post alone

 

2) Next on the "To Do" List: The best feature of the current Patrol Leader Handbook is the spiral binding, which allows you to tear out all the Wood Badge anti-Hillcourt disinformation!

 

So turn to Chapter 3. "Your Patrol and Your Troop" and rip out all those nasty pages:

 

Page 35 with the FAKE Baden-Powell Troop Method quote.

Page 36-37 with the Troop Organizational Charts.

Page 38 with the Troop Method six month elections.

Page 39-40 with the Troop Method "Three Types of Patrols."

Page 41-46 with ALL those pretty Troop Method patches.

 

3) To paraphrase Qwazse, what you have is a 12 Scout Patrol. So why not use Hillcourt's "Real Patrol" Method?

 

 

a) Use your cuss jar money to get a copy of Hillcourt's Handbook for Patrol Leaders. About $4 on AddAll:

 

http://preview.tinyurl.com/kw4v2a9

 

 

b) If you can trust the 16yo, have him camp his Patrol Baden-Powell's 300 feet from the adult Patrol, to simulate the handbook's real Patrol Overnights (Chapter 7). Have him lead his Patrol Hikes without adult helicopters on your monthly campouts, to simulate the handbook's real Patrol Hikes (Chapter 6).

 

c) Try Hillcourt's Patrol Leader course: "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol"

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

 

4) The only real way to train your future Patrol Leaders is for them to experience a "Real Patrol," and you have a rare opportunity to do so.

 

 

The "Real Patrol" Method is outdoor adventures led by your most competent Scout as Patrol Leader.

 

 

Everything else is the Troop Method.

Is Hillcourt's Handbook for Patrol Leaders (1944?) public domain?

[Eagledad]

1) Most important: Start a cuss jar. The word "Troop" costs a dollar.

 

Apothecus, you owe $8 for your first post alone

 

2) Next on the "To Do" List: The best feature of the current Patrol Leader Handbook is the spiral binding, which allows you to tear out all the Wood Badge anti-Hillcourt disinformation!

 

So turn to Chapter 3. "Your Patrol and Your Troop" and rip out all those nasty pages:

 

Page 35 with the FAKE Baden-Powell Troop Method quote.

Page 36-37 with the Troop Organizational Charts.

Page 38 with the Troop Method six month elections.

Page 39-40 with the Troop Method "Three Types of Patrols."

Page 41-46 with ALL those pretty Troop Method patches.

 

3) To paraphrase Qwazse, what you have is a 12 Scout Patrol. So why not use Hillcourt's "Real Patrol" Method?

 

 

a) Use your cuss jar money to get a copy of Hillcourt's Handbook for Patrol Leaders. About $4 on AddAll:

 

http://preview.tinyurl.com/kw4v2a9

 

 

b) If you can trust the 16yo, have him camp his Patrol Baden-Powell's 300 feet from the adult Patrol, to simulate the handbook's real Patrol Overnights (Chapter 7). Have him lead his Patrol Hikes without adult helicopters on your monthly campouts, to simulate the handbook's real Patrol Hikes (Chapter 6).

 

c) Try Hillcourt's Patrol Leader course: "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol"

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm

 

 

4) The only real way to train your future Patrol Leaders is for them to experience a "Real Patrol," and you have a rare opportunity to do so.

 

 

The "Real Patrol" Method is outdoor adventures led by your most competent Scout as Patrol Leader.

 

 

Everything else is the Troop Method.

And what if the scouts don't chose the scout as their patrol leader?

 

The SM appoints all the patrol leaders? I know Badon Powell's scouts did that, but I don't think Hillcourt did. Really doesn't matter, apothecus has play by today's design.

 

While Kudu and I agree philosophically on the big picture of scouting, we don't agree in changing the design. Whether one agrees with the current BSA program or not, the new SM still functions in the modern day BSA. To suggest going his own way and making it up as he goes along risk total chaos and eventual complete failure.

 

Scouts pick their leaders, not the adults. If the scoutmaster must assign a stranger to lead the rest of the scouts, then pick a position that makes sense to the current program.

 

Barry