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  2. E V Augustine
    Council does have a Unit Safety Director on staff. I have never seen or heard any indication of a Council Enterprise Risk Management (ERM) Committee. After a cursory read of the cited document, it does present a broad risk assessment algorithm and fortunately specifies the involvement of subject matter experts. Rather than ponder the risks of a developing and instituting a camp driver training program I returned to the concerns stated in my posts. Lake Erie Council has a mandatory policy that summer camp staff tow troop trailers over owned land to the respective troop campsite. Vehicles used are owned by the adult staff performing the work. This amounts to towing 75 - 100 trailers owned by as many different entities. As the troop trailers are in the temporary custody and control of Council employees this circumstance creates a bailee liability for Council. Generally this form of insurance coverage in not included in general commercial liability policies. I would expect this matter could be addressed by a phone call to Council's insurance carrier. The annual premium might be more than a few loads of gravel.
  3. skeptic started following Thoughts on Scouts electing the Scoutmaster?
  4. skeptic
    So many things get in the way of real continuity. For our unit, early on it was job issues with the chosen individual suddenly being moved and a fortunate replacement stepping up. That resulted is a few decades of solid leadership, but in reality it was up t half a dozen doing the lifting with one at the paper apex. He and his number one ASM received the first two SB awards in our council in the 30's. Sam the SM noted then that they were in reality co-SM's. WWII brought strong step ups to help, and then Sam" son came back and stepped in for a long period. He was forced out due to adults feeling his approach was too outdated. Lots of turmoil and loss of focus, and it almost killed the unit. Finally a steady hand stepped in to level the waves. I was put in the spot against my preference at the time due to personal issues and my job, yet somehow am still there, but now a paper figurehead with others working to keep us afloat. I was forced out due to a stroke and another major issue, and our unit family discovered that issue of poor planning. We now struggle for outdoor options, but we have a few dedicated adults to hold us afloat, though none are outdoor people in the sense of consistent hiking and camping, which had been our focus for most of our history. The history, over a century is a factor though. So we struggle on and I encourage them from the pedestal they put me on and try to find some younger outdoor types, hopefully maybe even past alumni. We also struggle with the Methodist challenge since the lawsuit. Going into year 104 and hopefully can cement the history in place and use it to draw some new true outdoor Scouting adults. Should add that service has Always been a factor for our units, and that is part of its success. Also, still fewer than a hundred Eagles, so we cannot be accused of that often difficult focus.
  5. InquisitiveScouter started following Thoughts on Scouts electing the Scoutmaster?
  6. InquisitiveScouter
    There is a mechanism already in place... 1. Scout tells parents they would like a new Scoutmaster, and articulates GOOD reasons for it. Parents tell committee: committee evaluates and takes action, with advice and consent of COR. 2. Scout tells Boards of Review they think they'd like a new Scoutmaster, and articulates GOOD reasons for it. (BoR is made of Committee Members and parents.) Committee evaluates and takes action, with advice and consent of COR. Although I understand the sentiment, youth must not make the decision of who should be Scoutmaster. (Inmates running the asylum and all ) To implement this would mean an abdication of responsibility by COR and Troop Committee. Unfortunately, reality is often that the Scoutmaster is simply the person with a pulse who said they'd do the job. In 45+ years of Scouting, I've never seen a unit with a decent succession plan. Still looking for that unicorn. (Yes, I have failed to get this accomplished in many a unit. If I was allowed to be the benevolent dictator, things would have been different.)
  7. IanR started following What?? You've Got to Be Kidding Me with These Membership Numbers!
  8. IanR
    IanR joined the community
  9. Armymutt
    I don't know that I would call it "woke". Seems like democracy is a foundation of the country. As qwazse said, they can vote with their feet. That's probably a less desirable outcome than having a mechanism whereby the Scouts can decide they want a new adult leader.
  10. qwazse
    They can vote with their feet.
  11. scoutldr
    No, but nothing would surprise me in this new generation of "wokeness". Adult leaders serve at the appointment and pleasure of the Chartered Organization. The Committee can recommend potential candidates. The PLC can voice their opinions, I suppose. But election? Nope.
  12. InquisitiveScouter
    Your council is "supposed" to have an Enterprise Risk Management Committee that should review this... Good Luck, https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-026.pdf
  13. yknot
    It's a great idea and good on you for trying but liability is the issue. They are in no authoritative position to confer any kind of credentialling and if an incident occurs it opens a can of worms that could only lead to enhanced liability. It's easier to just say park it and drive in.
  14. Yesterday
  15. E V Augustine
    Six years ago I proposed a solution to the concerns you expressed to be applied at the other Council owned camp. There the camp driving policy was more restrictive and the roads even less well maintained. The attached Driver's Competence Award concept was submitted to Council and ignored. I even had a Scouter with a CDL willing to teach the courses. Drivers Competence Award.pdf
  16. Armymutt started following Thoughts on Scouts electing the Scoutmaster?
  17. Armymutt
    I spend a couple hours each day in the car driving the kids to and from school, so my brain wanders around. One of the musings I had was, Can Scouts elect their Scoutmaster? Has anyone heard of such a thing? Can the PLC decide that they want a new SM and hold an election?
  18. E V Augustine
    There is a Scout camp in northeast Ohio that used a farm tractor towing a hay wagon to haul troop gear into their campsite. Staff does not handle troop gear. I am not sure the practice continues. I have been told it took hours to get into the campsites. At the northeast PA summer camp I attended as a Scout in the middle 1960's we walked our personal gear in over a box truss footbridge straddling a creek. Then everything you needed for the week would fit in a Yucca pack. The current "suggested Scout gear list" barely fits in a 90 liter plastic tub.
  19. yknot
    Trailers can do more damage than standard vehicles. Other threads here have talked about scouters who don't know how to properly connect, load, equalize, or drive trailers. It's not always just about weight. Somebody who gets themselves in a bad spot, or has to yink yank all over to back in, can do a lot of site damage. It may be only your scout camp that has this particular policy so far, but there are a lot of places where you can no longer drive in at all. Scouting also has a 'camp in all weather' credo. People sometimes do not consider potential site damage when weighing plans but it is upper mind for many facilities. They're trying to work with you in their own way -- they know it's hitched properly, that maybe you can't drive it around after they've parked it, and they can control where it's put. It is a liability concern though for he reasons mentioned.
  20. InquisitiveScouter
    At the camp I grew up in (1980's, LOL!), our Camp Director got fed up with shenanigans, and went to a system where, when units arrived in the main parking lot, they loaded all their gear into a camp trailer, and Ranger or Asst Ranger drove it to their campsite, with staff members assisting on loading and unloading. The issues then were too many cars in camp, drivers far exceeding safe speeds on camp roads with campers running everywhere, and people not getting their vehicles out expeditiously. So, about my third year on staff, the Camp Director instituted that procedure, and it worked well for the next five years I was on that staff...
  21. Tron
    Yes, staff driving a units vehicle or towing a units trailer is not normal. I can't say if it is unique to Beaumont; however, I have been to many scout camps and never experienced or heard of this before.
  22. Protoclete
    Protoclete changed their profile photo
  23. ScoutBrookie84
    ScoutBrookie84 joined the community
  24. SSScout
    JUST IN CASE YOU NEED SOMETHING TO DO FRIDAY NIGHT....--- You are invited to the WHITE OAK DISTRICT BAND CONCERT - FRIDAY - 1/30/26 @ 7:30pm. (Prompt start - please arrive by 7:20) Come in person to Transfiguration Parish, 13925 New Hampshire Ave, Silver Spring, MD 20904 or watch it live at: https://transfig.org/livestream/ The band is composed of 35 scouts, their family members, and friends who have worked hard to provide a beautiful performance. We hope to see you at Transfiguration.
  25. E V Augustine
    yknot, your thought would hold true if vehicles towing trailers were the only ones on the roads. In an earlier post I wrote that vehicles transporting people and their gear are allowed access to campsites on entry and departure. Adult campers may drive in and park on the road during the week if they have limited mobility documented on their medical forms. Given the typical distribution of one vehicle/trailer combination to about 10-15 passenger vehicles per troop at camp, management's justification gets pretty thin pretty quickly. From the postings so far I am encouraged that the practice of camp staff towing troop trailers into the campsite is unique to Beaumont Scout Reservation.
  26. yknot
    Sounds like some of the damage is being done based on how and where people park and how that affects where and how they pull out. If the staff parks the trailer, then they know how you are going to leave, so that's why they are not so worried about the pull out.
  27. E V Augustine
    I agree. There is a staffer posted at each campsite to greet and assist incoming troops, then once camp is set take the guys on an orientation tour. A 10' x 20' gravel pad at each site near the road would would prevent any difficulties. But, as I wrote in an earlier post, gravel costs money. In the current system troops arrive at the campsite with personal gear then wait as much as 2.5 hours for their trailer with troop gear (tents) to appear. This year in a camp leaders Zoom call the camp director discussed the importance of working quickly to set camp. Apparently staff is inconvenienced by the delays. To me this smacks of defending a bad decision. InquisitiveScouter suggested finding another camp. That's in the works.
  28. HashTagScouts
    This is so weird to me- you can drive out, but not in. If their real intent is not just have folks driving o'er hill and dale and trampling everything on the way, it would seem that the Camp staff could serve a purpose on saying "you will be accompanied by Camp Staff to drop trailers at the appropriate troop campsite". Our camp has a designated hour, before campers are to arrive, for units that wish to have a trailer at their campsite. Staff don't physically ride along with them (as they are typically the youth staff), but they will meet them at the campsite if the unit is not familiar with where to appropriately place trailers (Ranger allows in site entryway, but not within the campsite proper).
  29. E V Augustine
    The goal is control and to minimize road and camp site grounds maintenance costs. Gravel costs money. Beaumont is occupied by 22 tent sites, 12 lodges, a pool and a large office and dining facility. Undeveloped areas are wetlands and facultative wetlands. The rest has poor drainage. The three main roads have a gravel surface. The tent site clusters are accessed by moderately rutted dirt roads. Camp management claims troops towing their own trailers in cause damage to roads and sites due to lack of familiarity with conditions. However, troops towing their trailers out at week's end apparently do not. Vehicles transporting people and their gear are allowed access on entry and departure. Adult campers may drive in and park on the road during the week if they have limited mobility documented on their medical forms. One of our camp leaders has two bad knees. A friend might loan me his surplus deuce and a half for the week. A compliant solution.
  30. Tron
    So what is the reasoning behind this? I am imagining something like all non-staff are now forbidden from driving on the camp period? Is that the goal? What are they trying to achieve, what is the true goal here?
  31. InquisitiveScouter
    Go to a different camp Easy, peasy
  32. Last week
  33. E V Augustine
    There is another layer. We rent a trailer from a national truck and trailer rental company. The parties to the rental agreement are well defined and documented in the contract. A third party using their vehicle to tow the rented trailer puts me in material breach of the contract and voids the purchased damage waiver and contents insurance. In the event of damage or worse I would be on the hook and then have to pursue council and the inept driver. That would be after I had to explain why I breached the contract. Oddly enough the solution is let the units bring in and park their trailers in identified spots in the campsites. I know they refuse to consider that.
  34. InquisitiveScouter started following Troop trailers towed by summer camp staff.
  35. InquisitiveScouter
    For us, anyone driving camp (council) vehicles must be listed on the council's insurance policy. Units move and park their own trailers, and those vehicle operators assume liability risk on their own insurance policies per the G2SS, Transportation section: https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss11/ 13. All vehicles must be covered by automobile liability insurance with limits that meet or exceed the requirements of the state in which the vehicle is licensed. It is recommended, however, that coverage limits are at least $100,000 combined single limit. Any vehicle designed to carry ten or more passengers should have limit of $1,000,000. For insurance information refer to the Insurance section in the Guide to Safe Scouting. 14. When towing the tow vehicle driver has the knowledge, skills, and abilities to operate the vehicle with the attached unit. That your council is having "...adult staff using their personal vehicles tow all troop trailers..." is troubling. Council cannot require any staff member to use their personal vehicle for camp requirements, without remuneration and ensuring adequate liability coverage. If they make this some sort of condition for employment, or otherwise require employees (which camp staff are) to use their personal vehicles in this way, they are asking for trouble. Good luck convincing them
  36. E V Augustine started following Troop trailers towed by summer camp staff.
  37. E V Augustine
    Beaumont Scout Reservation has instituted a policy where summer camp adult staff using their personal vehicles tow all troop trailers from a parking lot near the public road to the respective troop's campsite. The towed distances are about a mile over gravel roads. Council's stated goal is to control trailer placement at the campsites. They move 15 to 20 trailers a week during the season. On leaving camp at week's end the troops tow their own trailers out of camp. I been told that councils would or should have some form of insurance covering damage to the trailer, its contents, and personal injury occurring while in the control of camp staff in the event of negligence. It seems an errant staffer's claim, "I did the best I could" would be a perfect defense. I am interested in hearing if other summer camps have the same policy, not about designated parking but operation of the trailer by camp staff.
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  • Posts

    • E V Augustine
      Troop trailers towed by summer camp staff.

      By E V Augustine · Posted

      Council does have a Unit Safety Director on staff.  I have never seen or heard any indication of a Council Enterprise Risk Management (ERM) Committee. After a cursory read of the cited document, it does present a broad risk assessment algorithm and fortunately specifies the involvement of subject matter experts.  Rather than ponder the risks of a developing and instituting a camp driver training program I returned to the concerns stated in my posts. Lake Erie Council has a mandatory policy that summer camp staff tow troop trailers over owned land to the respective troop campsite.  Vehicles used are owned by the adult staff performing the work.  This amounts to towing 75 - 100 trailers owned by as many different entities.  As the troop trailers are in the temporary custody and control of Council employees this circumstance creates a bailee liability for Council.  Generally this form of insurance coverage in not included in general commercial liability policies.  I would expect this matter could be addressed by a phone call to Council's insurance carrier.  The annual premium might be more than a few loads of gravel.     
    • skeptic
      Thoughts on Scouts electing the Scoutmaster?

      By skeptic · Posted

      So many things get in the way of real continuity.  For our unit, early on it was job issues with the chosen individual suddenly being moved and a fortunate replacement stepping up.  That resulted is a few decades of solid leadership, but in reality it was up t half a dozen doing the lifting with one at the paper apex.  He and his number one ASM received the first two SB awards in our council in the 30's.  Sam the SM noted then that they were in reality co-SM's.  WWII brought strong step ups to help, and then Sam" son came back and stepped in for a long period.  He was forced out due to adults feeling his approach was too outdated.  Lots of turmoil and loss of focus, and it almost killed the unit.  Finally a steady hand stepped in to level the waves.  I was put in the spot against my preference at the time due to personal issues and my job, yet somehow am still there, but now a paper figurehead with others working to keep us afloat.  I was forced out due to a stroke and another major issue, and our unit family discovered that issue of poor planning.  We now struggle for outdoor options, but we have a few dedicated adults to hold us afloat, though none are outdoor people in the sense of consistent hiking and camping, which had been our focus for most of our history.  The history, over a century is a factor though.  So we struggle on and I encourage them from the pedestal they put me on and try to find some younger outdoor types, hopefully maybe even past alumni.  We also struggle with the Methodist challenge since the lawsuit.  Going into year 104 and hopefully can cement the history in place and use it to draw some new true outdoor Scouting adults.  Should add that service has Always been a factor for our units, and that is part of its success. Also, still fewer than a hundred Eagles, so we cannot be accused of that often difficult focus.    
    • InquisitiveScouter
      Thoughts on Scouts electing the Scoutmaster?

      By InquisitiveScouter · Posted

      There is a mechanism already in place... 1.  Scout tells parents they would like a new Scoutmaster, and articulates GOOD reasons for it.  Parents tell committee: committee evaluates and takes action, with advice and consent of COR. 2.  Scout tells Boards of Review they think they'd like a new Scoutmaster, and articulates GOOD reasons for it.  (BoR is made of Committee Members and parents.)  Committee evaluates and takes action, with advice and consent of COR. Although I understand the sentiment, youth must not make the decision of who should be Scoutmaster.  (Inmates running the asylum and all  )  To implement this would mean an abdication of responsibility by COR and Troop Committee. Unfortunately, reality is often that the Scoutmaster is simply the person with a pulse who said they'd do the job. In 45+ years of Scouting, I've never seen a unit with a decent succession plan.  Still looking for that unicorn. (Yes, I have failed to get this accomplished in many a unit.  If I was allowed to be the benevolent dictator, things would have been different.)    
    • Armymutt
      Thoughts on Scouts electing the Scoutmaster?

      By Armymutt · Posted

      I don't know that I would call it "woke".  Seems like democracy is a foundation of the country.  As qwazse said, they can vote with their feet.  That's probably a less desirable outcome than having a mechanism whereby the Scouts can decide they want a new adult leader.  
    • qwazse
      Thoughts on Scouts electing the Scoutmaster?

      By qwazse · Posted

      They can vote with their feet.

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