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Here's what I found: 50 nights was the requirement in the Jan 1951 HB 20 nights was the requirement in the June 1953 HB

I agree with the bold, particularly training, which is why I stated: "I put "training" in quotes because we have a hard enough time getting parents involved without telling them they need training, lol. Still, at a minimum I want them to understand what the Patrol Method is and to understand why having their support on camping trips (because that's the specific weak point in our Troop for parents) is crucial." The trouble we're having is that we are really struggling with adult participation on trips, and it's been this way for a while. We've barely managed even finding enough drivers for our last two camping trips, let alone those who will stay. Our Troop has a policy of minimum three registered YPT adults on a trip in case of an unforeseen event or emergency, though four is preferred. We have three for our upcoming trip on the 31st. I'm totally okay with, and in favor of, going with just three, but one of the two ASMs attending is expressing concern about having only three adults. For reference, we typically get 15-20 scouts on a trip. Willing to accept that offering more adventure/learning for the adults may be the exact wrong thing to do. Trying to brainstorm how to encourage, but maybe I need to be thinking more about how to make it closer to glamping for 'Support Adults'. LOL. Our ASM types are already ASMs.

We're mostly set, with the exception of two scouts who haven't been to a meeting yet since the start of the year. We did ILST yesterday now that we have our Patrols and PORs. I think that it went pretty well, but after nearly 4 hours (45 minutes for lunch in the middle) we didn't hold a review at the end. The scouts actually enjoyed the games, though the 'trust fall' one became 'shove the scout in the center' instead of 'redirect the scout in the center'. I thought we'd be able to shorten the time a bit, but found that we couldn't get through everything in the hour allotted to each module. I made sure we had time to watch the videos on the various aspects of the Troop meeting, because there are two parts our Troop doesn't do that I think will help us. The videos were a little - can't think of the word I want - but anyway, the last one was of the PLC doing a review of how the meeting went and one scout said, "That (a game they had tried) devolved into chaos, as usual." I saw a couple of our scouts nodding or chuckling. It's good for them to see that imperfection is so normal and that this is somewhat typical. The best part was observing how the scouts handled aspects of the training. I did a fair amount of camping with the Troop when we first joined, then less as time went on. I forgot how rewarding it can be seeing them figure things out, make jokes, step in to help each other... and yes, even be obnoxious, lol.

For those folks, I listen, and then hand them this official Troop complaint form... https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/524-501.pdf

Sounds like a regular meeting night to me You will have a LOT of people telling you how to do the job. Some will tell you how terrible you are at it. Some will say that to you, others will just gossip about it. But ... you're in this role because you stepped up, or were suggested and importantly out of all options - you Chartered Org Rep approved you. I carry an index card with me and as scouts ask for time I scribble it down and try to set expectations "Hey bud, you're 5th in line and I have a few things to do before I can sit down for conferences. It might be after the close of the meeting - can you stay? If not, we'll get it next week for sure." You're new in the role so you will tend to want to do more, probably, to learn and hone your skill. You can definitely delegate. Use those older scouts if it's to get something signed off. If you know the Scout well, it's often better to delegate the SM Conf to an ASM. I like to "hoarde" conferences for Scouts I don't know well or see as much as a tool to get to know them better and have that touch but also - never stand in the way of advancement progress. Better to delegate out a conference than hold up a scout for 3-4 weeks. And when things get REAL NUTS (sounds like you have a larger troop) you can do things outside of meetings, minding YPT. I've done a LOT of conferences at Starbucks on a non-meeting night. I've done a LOT at campouts and in fact have a habit now on Friday night saying "If anyone needs a conference or is really close - see me tomorrow after lunch" or whatever. Remember too, SM Conferences do not have to be last. If they are 1-2 simple requirements away from "being done and needing one" - just do it now if it's convenient. Save the pressure that comes from leaving it last. Many thing it has to be the last thing. It's not a bad idea to encourage that and use the SM conf as a chance to make sure all looks square just before a board of review but you can do a SM conference ANY time for a rank. And I always sign off the requirement the moment I sit down to do it with the Scout. The requirement does not say "pass" a conference - it says "have" a conference. So I just check the book, sign off the conf, then focus on them for the duration. Takes the stress and anticipation of getting that initial out of the equation too and lets them engage better as well.

The first thing I do is never stop asking. The second thing I do is accept camping and being a leader is not for everyone. If they aren't super interested, you're probably better off letting them find another role. A disgruntled adult leader who's just super unhappy outdoors brings down everyone. As I find interested souls, I split adult outdoor support into two groups: ASM-types: Actively engage with Scouts, enjoy outdoor activities already, and spend time out of their chairs while participating in the program. They're involved because they love the activities and the program. Support Adults: Provide a relaxing presence at camp and assist with tasks as needed, like managing meals or running errands, when ASMs are busy with Scouts. They mainly come to ensure the Scouts can camp while enjoying some downtime. New adults (all) shadow me on their first few outings and learn "the way": Adults are a patrol, staying out of Scout activities unless there's a safety or behavioral concern. Parents often struggle to let Scouts make mistakes or rely on youth leadership, but it's key to fostering independence. Outdoor outings also provide valuable R&R for adults, often filled with campfires, stories, and cooking. Another thing I've done recently is I ask new leaders to come to meetings in plain clothes for a few weeks. Watch, listen, learn. Then come in uniform. On the first night in uniform, I introduce them to the Scouts. Who they are. What they will do. How to expect to interact with them. It's really done a lot to improve new leader engagement. It takes away all the "Who the heck is this person and where do they get off telling me what to do?" aspect. I think having a slew of activities and training may actually turn adults off. Entice them with some R&R and fellowship, get to know the person, find the things they may be passionate about and then leverage those things. Talk about all the downtime they will enjoy, the great food, the camaraderie with the adults. Then, if they say it's not their thing - take them at their word. But check in regularly in case it starts to sound more appealing.

In trying to pick up knowledge to help me be an effective leader, I've been scouring this site. Here's a partial quote that caught my attention, both for myself, but for other adults: [quote]How to revamp BSA training - I see a very similar problem in the BSA. There is a lack of depth of knowledge at the unit and district level these days - to your point those senior Scouters who make this all work magically. You describe that very well and I concur. In a sense, I wonder how much of the various training efforts around the BSA are really all trying to address this issue. I would welcome an advanced unit Scouter course that covers the mechanics of unit level Scouting. In fact, I could see a small collection of such advanced, in person courses. A weekend or two for each sounds correct to me. These are serious courses for serious people. leadership development & team building advanced Scoutmaster training advanced unit mechanics advanced district mechanics[/quote] Our Troop needs adults to camp with us (and that's become harder now that they must be registered). I've been thinking about "training" for the adults who don't hold official positions within the Troop. I put "training" in quotes because we have a hard enough time getting parents involved without telling them they need training, lol. Still, at a minimum I want them to understand what the Patrol Method is and to understand why having their support on camping trips (because that's the specific weak point in our Troop for parents) is crucial. I want to come up with a plan that might help, and the above post seemed relevant in that it lays out areas that seem like they would need to be addressed in order for successfully getting parents involved. (Understanding how things work, and being part of the team that makes the Troop run.) The very, very basic start to this plan is to first and foremost build a type of agenda/plan to present to the parents in order to tempt/persuade them to come with us. One dad, who is a landscaper and no stranger to being outdoors told me, "I [curse word] hate camping." So this is going to be a challenge, but I'm thinking what if a camping trip is advertised not as 'come with us because we need adults', but as a chance for adults to participate in an adventure? After all, that's much the way that we approach youth. What kind of activities do you think would resonate? I love hiking, backpacking, fire-building, biking, trail running, rafting/kayaking, bird-watching. I don't love cooking (outdoors or in, lol). I love sleeping in a tent (but not in January). I like the solitude of the outdoors more than being around a group, but have been told I'm personable. That's all to say that what I think would make an awesome trip may not be what others think would make an awesome trip. I DO know that for most of our scouts the time they spend in groups with their peers is one of the biggest draws of going on the trips. For those of you who have done training, what resonated and what fell flat? Are there activities you've done that don't feel like "This is a team-building activity"? One of the things we were told as parents when my boys first joined our Troop was - come with us; you won't have to do anything. That felt kind of nice but - for me - doesn't seem like it's enough enticement.

I am in favor of keeping the age limit. 18 is the legal demarcation between "minor" and "adult". Over the years, I have seen "adulthood" being pushed out older and older. At 26, you can still be on your parents' health insurance, even if they are married with their own families. Why, I have no idea. I have relatives who are 30 and still being supported by their parents. I say, "hold the line". We are in the business of helping young people grow up and be self-sufficient. Part of that is getting your act together to meet deadlines...or deal with the consequences.

I think BSA should drop the age limit. This deadline causes so much unneeded frustration for families and Scouts, and a rush to get it done, cutting corners, and detracting from the experience. If we want to create a great outdoor experience, we do not need to overlay the pressure of doing it for an award you are going run out of time getting. This would also help integrate Scouts with different needs (I do not like the phrase "special needs") who need more time to complete things.

What percentage of scouts are doing long-term camps, to the exclusion of multiple weekend (or midweek) outings? And how is it hurting them if they don’t earn Camping MB? If they’d rather advance as far as Life, let them age out proudly. The fundamental problem is thinking that it’s a shame to disqualify from the nation’s highest scouting award youth who don’t practice hiking and camping independently with their mates. I sympathize with counselors who feel like they are having to split hairs, but sometimes scouts and their troops need that little nudge to think out of the box.

My bad. The 50 nights is in my copy of the 1934 MB requirements booklet. I’ll have to look further on when it changed to 20.

While that may be lore in your area or unit, it was not the case. 20 Days or nights was the amount needed, and, at least in the 1960 HB, which still had requirements in the back, there was no specification regarding summer camp. Now in the pamphlet, which I may or may not have avaailable someplace that may have been discussed. It is hard to overcome the lore from the past, much of it being simply poor memory or units that chose their own interpretations and so on. For example, here we had one unit that added in pioneering and wilderness survival for their youth in order to become Eagle, It had its purpose, but some choice to leave and go elsewhere, or sadly just left. It may that type of thing that brought on the specific publication by National regarding adherring to official requirements. Sort of like the long time story that the earliest scouts had to light a fire without matches to advance, but even then matches were allowed; only two max, but allowed. Friction and spark were common though, and many did it regularly.

Where is it in the registration guidebook? Also, do you have a copy? The 2024 edition came out, but has been only posted internally for registrars. Would like to have a copy.

The next IOLS for our Council isn't until May 3rd. I'm not sure how strict our Council is, but given that we were going to be without a Scoutmaster at all, my guess is that they're not going to make an issue of it unless I don't do the training once it's available. I may do Wilderness First Aid and CPR, which is available March 14-16. Thanks for the link above. Will check it out.

My sons each have at least 100+ qualifying nights. If the troop is active, it's not hard. Opportunity exists for 7 years * 12 months * 2 nights a month = 168. Add summer camps ... now 203. Add other special high adventures. ... Two of my sons worked at scout camps. I swear one of my sons probably had 300 nights in a tent before he turned 18. 20 nights is low bar to pass.

What happened here is that fiblandia has a special law. That's not the federal FOIA. So going back to the OP's question, what state is the OP in?

Best cub and family camping. Wood Badge there also.

IMHO this change is unnecessary. What is the purpose of 20 nights and requirement 9b? Teach youth how to take care of themselves in different types of outdoor experiences? If a scout goes to 4 summer camps, that’s 60 percent of the nights. Some scouts today are finishing their Eagle nights and have 75-100 total. we should go back to the pre 1960 camping mb requirement which was 50 nights with no longer term camps allowed.

In the Troop of my yoooth, the Troop had an overnight scheduled at least every other month, even thru the winter. We had hikes and other events, but somewhere we had an overnight, if not at "The Property", which belonged to somebody's uncle's cousin.... Summer camp too, both Council sponsored "official" summer camp, and the one we set up in "The Property".... I would hope the NEW requirements would differentiate between "under canvas, on the ground" (nylon? Plastic?) and under "roof" (long term? On platform? ). Carrying your shelter on Philmont, Katahdin or on canoe is a mark different than walking in to a Camp Scouter site and walking up a step onto a platform, even if it is under canvas held up by a 2x4 beam.

I agree. And with counting "nights…in shelters not provided to the Scout" our unit has a firm rule that those nights are only counted if the Scout at least to adjust the thermostat AND they get their own ice from the machine down the hall.

Nice they clarified. However I would like to see the requirement have some (10?) of the nights not be in shelters provided to the Scout. IMO part of the experience, perhaps a significant part, is the choosing of the tent spot, preparing the site, and setting up one's shelter. Same with using summer camp as nights when all the food is prepared for them in the dining hall. Camping is not just sleeping away from home. This is a mB after all.

Not a bad change, there are many competing priorities and some Scouts many only be able to attend say 1 night of some 2 night outings, yet can commit to camp each summer or high adventure trips. Agree and as a Camping MB I also used some discretion. We had a troop fold and had many of their Scouts join, 75% were older. Unfortunately they had not done as much weekend camping as our troop did, but, they did go to summer camps. Many were around Jrs in HS, so we had them camp as they could, and looked at summer camp as much as we could for those "extra" nights.

This latter added is interesting, as I chose, as SM and counselor for the badge to do just that almost from the start. It just made perfect sense to me that we should not penalize a youth for participating. If it had been simply a weekend two night outing, we would have counted it, so why not longer term programed camps? Now, I did make a judgement call if a youth was never doing the shorter outings, and the max was always two. So IF the youth only went on long term summer camp, not treks to Philmont and such, then it would gen really never be a real issue, as the totals would take too long. It was my prerogative I felt, and still do.

This was "missing" from the 2025 MB updates. 9. Show experience in camping by doing the following: (a) Camp for at least 20 nights at designated Scouting activities or events. One long-term camping experience of up to six consecutive nights may be applied toward this requirement. Two nights may be counted toward the total for each additional long-term camping trip. Each night must be spent either under the sky, in a tent you have pitched yourself (if a tent is provided and already set up, you do not need to pitch your own), in a hammock that is safely strung outdoors, in a lean-to, or other three-sided shelter with an open front. Nights spent in indoor lock-in events, cabin camping, hotel stays, or other covered accommodations do not count toward the 20 nights.

Winter 2025 Abilities Digest newsletter https://ablescouts.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/abd-v12n1r2.pdf