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We have a summer camp in the area that flooded badly last weekend called Bear Creek. The only people up there were the Ranger and his family, because the camp is shut down for repairs this summer with all Alamo Area Council activities moved to McGimsey Scout Park in town (and a lot of folks going out of council this year). The eponymous Bear Creek is a tributary to the northern fork of the Guadalupe and it did flash flood, but in the wider context the camp just needs some cleanup. Images council sent out attached. Debris in the Order of the Arrow ring (amphitheater-style seating for campfires) and on the wires for the slides. (We have a swimming area in front of the boathouse (on Bear Creek itself of course) with waterslides and zip lines and a floating dock, but the water slides themselves are only on the river during camp sessions, so they weren't in the river when the flood came.) Our floating dock has been lost. Water entered the Dining Hall from runoff coming down the hill; cleanup will be required. (The dining hall is pretty high up on a hill, where the campsites are also located, and it's a pavilion with rolldown closures of openings rather than real walls.) The Eco Pavilion appears unaffected, and all canoes and kayaks remain in place. The road below the Dining Hall has been washed out, exposing a water line and currently preventing vehicle access to the Valley View campsite. Water also entered the Main (storage area behind a novelty facade of an Old West town at the entrance) and the Ranger’s porch, though thankfully not the Ranger’s home itself. Some fencing is down, including a fence belonging to a neighbor near the rifle range. (The rifle range is located in the creek valley.) I think a lot of us in Alamo Area can't help but put ourselves in the shoes of the parents who lost campers on and off. And in those moments, other than working with other unit leaders to make sure we're Prepared(TM), I often become very proud of Scouting America and scouting. As you may know by now even if you're not in the area, Hunt is geologically very prone to flash flooding and is part of an area colloquially called Flash Flood Alley. Just like heat, severe flash flood risk is baked into the experience of camping there. (This is not the first time campers have died in flash floods outside Hunt.) So, this requires Being Prepared. And all the campsites as well as the staff housing is located near the tops of the hills. The entire valley below would have to fill for campers to be washed away in the middle of the night. That's good, because cell phone reception at Bear Creek ranges from none to text messages only at the hilltops. Had Bear Creek itself risen as much as the entire Guadalupe did at its worst, scouts camping at Bear Creek would probably have had their camp week ruined but they would be alive. Camp Mystic (not accredited) had cabins in not just floodplains but floodways, and we have no people sleeping in even floodplains other than (for some inexplicable reason) the Ranger's house. Source: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/projects/2025/texas-camp-mystic-guadalupe-fema-floodplains/, for reference Bear Creek is really close to Camp Waldemar which is marked on the map. The floodway that goes upwards to the left left of Camp Waldemar is Bear Creek the creek.) Apparently FEMA and Camp Mystic argued about flood plains and cabin locations repeatedly, including when they last expanded Camp Mystic in 2020. (Source: https://www.texastribune.org/2025/07/12/camp-mystic-flood-plain-FEMA/) And we didn't even get close to needing to do anything like that - we just put our campers well away from flash floods and make them all hike up and down hill instead. Good for the folks who planned this camp! Is it irritating to have to hike up and down steep hills in the heat when you're down in Program Valley and realize you forgot something you really must have at your campsite? Yes. Does "Cardiac Hill" deserve its nickname? Maybe not. We are in the physically fit business, after all. But is all the up and down worth knowing that you and your scouts aren't going to die in a flash flood? Absolutely. Safety rules are written in blood, let's not forget. May we all learn to respect the power of nature and be mentally awake enough to recognize when advance planning is the difference between life and death.
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How to save a rapidly dying Troop.
HashTagScouts replied to ColorBoomScouting's topic in Open Discussion - Program
Don't disagree with you on when they could have messaged. Does seem to be desired to use NAM as the showcase the past few years- but that could be self-serving trying to get more people to attend ((BSA makes $ off the registration fees for NAM). -
How to save a rapidly dying Troop.
AwakeEnergyScouter replied to ColorBoomScouting's topic in Open Discussion - Program
Maybe I'm just overly cynical, but that sounds like someone in your council fighting the success. It could just be poor job performance, of course. But the kind of stiff, emotional resistance to girls and women being a full, authentic part of Scouting America that some people in the organization have doesn't just evaporate in a year or even in the face of evidence. For them, it's not about success for the organization, it's about forcing the world to be a certain way. In this case cooties-free. It could definitely be that your council's policy is a result of an internal struggle between people who wanted coed and people who didn't. Did you see Scouting Maverick's take on postponing coed in Scouts BSA earlier? https://scoutingmaverick.com/2025/01/21/celebrating-a-sexist-scam-linked-troop-wood-badge-highlights-sas-cultural-rot/ Your example of a CC who is so invested in no girls that he's going to de facto let his unit die rather than go coed isn't the only one I'm sure. Actually, you mentioned several such units, so... They're going to keep shrieking until it stops working, which seems to be roundabout now or soon. But some won't stop shrieking because they realized it's actually fine, they will still sabotage what they can. Meanwhile in my corner of my female-friendly council, many leaders are working together to build out a coed pipeline from Cub Scouts into Scouts BSA. Not coincidentally we're about equal numbers of men and women. And it's working - all of our units are growing. If we keep working, Scouting America is going to come back from cultural oblivion in a decade or so. -
That's exactly where we are right now. Most of the adults in the troop were not Scouts. They took the youth lead concept to an extreme and now we have a patient that is sick. I'm trying to avoid getting to the life support stage, much less CPR. The oldest Scouts have succumbed to sports and the fumes. Half the troop is under the age of 13 and a quarter is under the age of 12. We are going to have to actually teach the PLC, such that it is, how to do the skills and then get them to retain the information long enough to teach it to their patrols.
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How to save a rapidly dying Troop.
Tron replied to ColorBoomScouting's topic in Open Discussion - Program
I get what you're saying; I would counter though that national should have been able to see that and should have planned that timeline to release the coed program earlier. So right now female membership growth is significantly outpacing male membership growth (I think the NAM numbers were 3x the number of females are joining right now), and most of us have no where to send our female AOLs. I don't know about you guys but my council adopted the dumbest policy during the coed pilot. Only existing linked units from prior to the coed policy can be coed, so we have female AOLs just dropping from the program. Who could be so stupid to think retention of female scout was going to go up in some of these councils where we're stuck telling parents that if they want to keep their daughters in the program they will have to continue to drive an additional 10+ miles just to go to a troop meeting when their sons are swinging around the block for a meeting? -
So we have a framework right. It's clear that adult leaders have to step in and instruct the senior scouts when there is a knowledge gap or lack of retention. This goes back to BP and his original Aids to Scoutmastership. The program has always allowed for adult leaders to step in; how we step in is critical though. My advice, which I would say is backed up by the solid century+ of the program and going back to the root (BP) is, in the absence of capable elected youth leaders, adults step in to teach those youth leaders and get them to the point where they are capable. In short it's a 2 part solution. Part 1) Adults are on hand and always willing to teach the PLC members what they need to do to teach, mentor, and lead the rest of the troop. Part 2) Constantly assessing if you're not being a lazy fat slob by flopping on the phrase "Have you asked your SPL".
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Semantics. I'd argue that anyone under the rank of first class is a junior Scout. I wouldn't call one a new Scout after being in the troop for over a year. Splitting the 16 Scouts into two patrols within the new/junior Scout patrol is far easier to manage than one single patrol. The ASMs aren't leading the patrol. They are assigned to them to advise the patrol leader. The handbooks aren't a suicide pact, last I checked. Right now, we have 11 y/o patrol leaders who can't get themselves straight, let alone teach skills to the rest of the patrol. The 14 y/o SPL is likewise lacking in leadership competence, having failed to ensure patrol leaders and meeting focus on Scout skills. In a perfect world, we would have older, more knowledgeable and mature Scouts who would keep the meeting focused. Instead, we have an SPL throwing jello on the roof of a shelter at camp and wondering why no one is following his instructions. It's been 31 years since merit badge factory summer camp. Not Scouting. Our OA chapter isn't much better. I was trying to turn that around until the Army sent me 600 miles away for three years. I've been supporting a troop at that location while simultaneously operating a pack and helping the OA in NC on the weekends.
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They aren’t teams, they are patrols. They aren’t junior scouts, they are scouts or new scouts. They aren’t lead by an ASM, but by a PL and a troop guide. It’s been awhile, 31 years, I suggest reading the PL, SPL, and SM (Unit Leader) handbooks again. Words matter.
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How to save a rapidly dying Troop.
HashTagScouts replied to ColorBoomScouting's topic in Open Discussion - Program
I think the roll out timing post NAM 2024 was a little late to see immediate impact - AOLs would have already crossed over at that point. Waiting to give measurement now that they have seen numbers for the pilot units that took on crossovers this spring, plus seeing what recruitment numbers look like for those units as they approach back-to-school recruitment events, you should see a better picture. -
How to save a rapidly dying Troop.
Tron replied to ColorBoomScouting's topic in Open Discussion - Program
Post NAM, post the status update of the coed pilot, post everyone now being told that the pilot is an overwhelming success; we're definitely going coed. The thing that confuses me is that the pilot was supposed to end in July 2025 and results available, and now that has all been punted to December 2025. What does that punt mean? Is someone fighting the success? Do corporate lawyers need more time to get documentation of the program together properly? Is national trying to sneak a few extra bucks with 1 more double charter fee for the coed units? what what what does it mean? -
I am going to guess that it's a teacher/student thing. I know several teachers who are also scout leaders in my community; technically if they are walking down a hall after school when there are barely any people present and a student who is also scout is walking down said hall and there is no one else there; wouldn't that technically be a YPT 1v1 violation? The real answer is that Scouting America was put over a barrel by the lawsuit; a lot of victims were assaulted outside of the auspices of BSA but the perpetrator was someone they knew from within BSA. Now we have these rules that make no sense.
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How to save a rapidly dying Troop.
AwakeEnergyScouter replied to ColorBoomScouting's topic in Open Discussion - Program
Off topic now, but I certainly hope that's what's going to happen. In a generation, GSUSA is going to have a real struggle on their hands if they don't open up membership to boys. Gender segregated scouting is niche, and once enough time has passed for everyone to know off the top of their heads that Scouting America is coed and the girls growing up in Cub Scouts now have kids of their own, there will be as many moms as dads who fondly remember their scouting youth and want to share scouting with their kids based on what I just saw at cub resident camp. I think that's what we're all doing as parents - whatever experience we had in scouts as youth is what we want to share with our kids. Right now, moms who were Girl Scouts with daughters want to share Girl Scouts with them, and often do. My cub and I are usually the only mother-daughter pair with no boy siblings in the family at events. Moms who were Girl Scouts but who have boys have to put them in Scouting America if they do scouts; but dads who were Scouting America scouts can now share that with all their kids. Once both US-born moms and dads were Scouting America scouts... I predict the same fate for GSUSA as other girl guiding organizations - niche. The vast majority of people want coed scouting and Scouting America now has first-mover advantage in the US. The longer GSUSA delays in letting boys in, the harder it will be to make up the time for all the reasons Scouting America has just gone through. Or, I suppose, they can just experience what our single-gender units are experiencing now. -
How to save a rapidly dying Troop.
HashTagScouts replied to ColorBoomScouting's topic in Open Discussion - Program
In the two years of fumbling it took us to get enough girls to start a girl troop, we lost five kids (two sibling pairs + 1 friend of of one of the families) from out of our own pack to a neighboring town because they had a functioning linked boy troop and girl troop. We managed to get our stuff together to charter a girl troop with minimum #s that next year, but by year's end one aged out and one of our female adults moved. We were down to four girls going into 2024 and knew one would age out over the summer, so the mixed gender pilot was the saving grace for 2025. Very doubtful that BSA is going to drop that, and would bet the farm that by 2026 it is just one of the membership options that any unit can use. -
There are careers that may require one-on-one contact with youth, however aside from those roles, This is the line that I'm not sure what they meant by adding it. Employer/Employee? Doctor/patient?
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How to save a rapidly dying Troop.
Tron replied to ColorBoomScouting's topic in Open Discussion - Program
I can add that in my area a couple of hold out packs decided that they wanted to be boy only. A couple of packs tried to do single gender dens. In both scenarios everyone watched as those units shrank, and shrank, and shrank while the family packs maintained or grew. The last couple of hold out packs are basically cookie cutter of each other now, 5-6 scouts with 5 adults; everyone in the district knows that those packs are folding when a member of the Key 3 crosses over with their AOL. My buddies pack tried to stay boy only until they got down under 10 scouts; they went to district and some of us peer leaders at other units for help and the shock was insane. I had to tell my buddy that I was not wasting my time trying to help him recruit when he could easily pick up another 5-10 scouts by just letting the sisters that were tagging along to meetings and participating join the pack. The COR of that pack, his head, it was deep raspberry with rage, I thought he was going to burst a blood vessel in both of his eyes; he really didn't like me telling him to his face that he was killing his pack by being sexist. -
Sounds like a poor decisions. What's the number, 9 out of 10 sexual assault victims personally know their attacker? Never 1v1 ever has a serious track record backing it up.
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How to save a rapidly dying Troop.
AwakeEnergyScouter replied to ColorBoomScouting's topic in Open Discussion - Program
I have to apologize, I didn't want to type the whole phrase "family packs, linked troops, and coed troops" every time and made the assumption that readers would know that cub scouts has family packs (coed), but that there is a range of coed-ness among troops, depending on whether they're in the pilot or not and how closely linked troops operate. Some operate completely independently, others have meetings and outings at the same time. To supplement the troop information above, coed packs have been around since 2022. I was surprised it was so recent when I looked it up, but I suppose that's because we joined a pack in the pilot in 2022 and I didn't realize it was new. I was so relieved to find my normal I didn't think about it further. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/06/22/cub-scout-family-dens-what-they-are-and-how-they-could-work-for-your-pack/ The relative newness is perhaps also why so many people seem to not have thought about the choices AOLs have to make about troops and friendships. It's been obvious to me from the start, and I've wondered why I keep running into people who seem blindsided or surprised by that if AOL friends choose to stick together, then that rules out a single-gender troop that operates independently. But it may be because most US scouters truly haven't thought it through from the perspective of AOLs crossing over from coed packs because it's so new to them. At a troop fair last year, I was a little surprised that several single-gender units schmoozed me up without announcing that they were single-gender or checking to see what gender my cub was. I assumed that if they didn't take half the cubs they'd say that up front so parents and cubs would know the limitation before wasting time. But now I realize that this may literally be the first years of cubs from coed packs that have been together from Lions on up together crossing over. -
How to save a rapidly dying Troop.
HashTagScouts replied to ColorBoomScouting's topic in Open Discussion - Program
NAM 2024 they announced pilot for mixed gender troops. My former linked units merged to single mixed gender unit for 2025 re-charter. NAM 2025 briefly mentioned it- no immediate plans to fully incorporate it as a full-fledged program option yet, but as I understand it, the plan is to expand the pilot in additional councils in 2025. https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/NAM/2025/0 - Opening General Session.pdf -
What doesn't sound like Scouts? I know a lot of troops who have a junior/new Scout patrol. We just have 18 junior Scouts, so it would be necessary to divide them into separate teams or patrols. The learning has to start somewhere. When you don't have older Scouts going on campouts due to work, sports, or something else, there are no experts available. A 10 y/o patrol leader isn't exactly experienced enough to dig into the handbook and put together a training class on his own. The ASM needs to guide him. Even the 14 y/o SPL lacks the maturity to get things done. The normal campouts focus more on a merit badge and less on basic skills. We just came off a week of merit badge factory summer camp. Other than the morning sessions dedicated to doing some of Tenderfoot through 1st Class, no basic skills were trained.
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mrjohns2 started following First Scout week trip in 31 years
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This doesn't much sound like Scouts. Why not put the skills into practice in their current patrols on the normal upcoming campouts?
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How to save a rapidly dying Troop.
scoutldr replied to ColorBoomScouting's topic in Open Discussion - Program
When did BSA policy change to include "Co-ed units"? Just trying to keep up here. -
Chapter 11 announced - Part 14 - Plan Effective
johnsch322 replied to MYCVAStory's topic in Issues & Politics
Non-settling insurers billed billions in Boy Scouts abuse settlement fund | Insurance Business America
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By AwakeEnergyScouter · Posted
We have a summer camp in the area that flooded badly last weekend called Bear Creek. The only people up there were the Ranger and his family, because the camp is shut down for repairs this summer with all Alamo Area Council activities moved to McGimsey Scout Park in town (and a lot of folks going out of council this year). The eponymous Bear Creek is a tributary to the northern fork of the Guadalupe and it did flash flood, but in the wider context the camp just needs some cleanup. Images council sent out attached. Debris in the Order of the Arrow ring (amphitheater-style seating for campfires) and on the wires for the slides. (We have a swimming area in front of the boathouse (on Bear Creek itself of course) with waterslides and zip lines and a floating dock, but the water slides themselves are only on the river during camp sessions, so they weren't in the river when the flood came.) Our floating dock has been lost. Water entered the Dining Hall from runoff coming down the hill; cleanup will be required. (The dining hall is pretty high up on a hill, where the campsites are also located, and it's a pavilion with rolldown closures of openings rather than real walls.) The Eco Pavilion appears unaffected, and all canoes and kayaks remain in place. The road below the Dining Hall has been washed out, exposing a water line and currently preventing vehicle access to the Valley View campsite. Water also entered the Main (storage area behind a novelty facade of an Old West town at the entrance) and the Ranger’s porch, though thankfully not the Ranger’s home itself. Some fencing is down, including a fence belonging to a neighbor near the rifle range. (The rifle range is located in the creek valley.) I think a lot of us in Alamo Area can't help but put ourselves in the shoes of the parents who lost campers on and off. And in those moments, other than working with other unit leaders to make sure we're Prepared(TM), I often become very proud of Scouting America and scouting. As you may know by now even if you're not in the area, Hunt is geologically very prone to flash flooding and is part of an area colloquially called Flash Flood Alley. Just like heat, severe flash flood risk is baked into the experience of camping there. (This is not the first time campers have died in flash floods outside Hunt.) So, this requires Being Prepared. And all the campsites as well as the staff housing is located near the tops of the hills. The entire valley below would have to fill for campers to be washed away in the middle of the night. That's good, because cell phone reception at Bear Creek ranges from none to text messages only at the hilltops. Had Bear Creek itself risen as much as the entire Guadalupe did at its worst, scouts camping at Bear Creek would probably have had their camp week ruined but they would be alive. Camp Mystic (not accredited) had cabins in not just floodplains but floodways, and we have no people sleeping in even floodplains other than (for some inexplicable reason) the Ranger's house. Source: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/projects/2025/texas-camp-mystic-guadalupe-fema-floodplains/, for reference Bear Creek is really close to Camp Waldemar which is marked on the map. The floodway that goes upwards to the left left of Camp Waldemar is Bear Creek the creek.) Apparently FEMA and Camp Mystic argued about flood plains and cabin locations repeatedly, including when they last expanded Camp Mystic in 2020. (Source: https://www.texastribune.org/2025/07/12/camp-mystic-flood-plain-FEMA/) And we didn't even get close to needing to do anything like that - we just put our campers well away from flash floods and make them all hike up and down hill instead. Good for the folks who planned this camp! Is it irritating to have to hike up and down steep hills in the heat when you're down in Program Valley and realize you forgot something you really must have at your campsite? Yes. Does "Cardiac Hill" deserve its nickname? Maybe not. We are in the physically fit business, after all. But is all the up and down worth knowing that you and your scouts aren't going to die in a flash flood? Absolutely. Safety rules are written in blood, let's not forget. May we all learn to respect the power of nature and be mentally awake enough to recognize when advance planning is the difference between life and death. -
By RememberSchiff · Posted
Timely article: https://gazette.com/news/local/southern-colorado-boy-scouts-camp-survived-terrifying-flash-flood/article_78a58953-e44e-48a3-90d1-58f144d59da0.html I did not know that Spanish Peaks Scout Ranch was sold in 2023. -
By HashTagScouts · Posted
Don't disagree with you on when they could have messaged. Does seem to be desired to use NAM as the showcase the past few years- but that could be self-serving trying to get more people to attend ((BSA makes $ off the registration fees for NAM). -
By AwakeEnergyScouter · Posted
Maybe I'm just overly cynical, but that sounds like someone in your council fighting the success. It could just be poor job performance, of course. But the kind of stiff, emotional resistance to girls and women being a full, authentic part of Scouting America that some people in the organization have doesn't just evaporate in a year or even in the face of evidence. For them, it's not about success for the organization, it's about forcing the world to be a certain way. In this case cooties-free. It could definitely be that your council's policy is a result of an internal struggle between people who wanted coed and people who didn't. Did you see Scouting Maverick's take on postponing coed in Scouts BSA earlier? https://scoutingmaverick.com/2025/01/21/celebrating-a-sexist-scam-linked-troop-wood-badge-highlights-sas-cultural-rot/ Your example of a CC who is so invested in no girls that he's going to de facto let his unit die rather than go coed isn't the only one I'm sure. Actually, you mentioned several such units, so... They're going to keep shrieking until it stops working, which seems to be roundabout now or soon. But some won't stop shrieking because they realized it's actually fine, they will still sabotage what they can. Meanwhile in my corner of my female-friendly council, many leaders are working together to build out a coed pipeline from Cub Scouts into Scouts BSA. Not coincidentally we're about equal numbers of men and women. And it's working - all of our units are growing. If we keep working, Scouting America is going to come back from cultural oblivion in a decade or so. -
That's exactly where we are right now. Most of the adults in the troop were not Scouts. They took the youth lead concept to an extreme and now we have a patient that is sick. I'm trying to avoid getting to the life support stage, much less CPR. The oldest Scouts have succumbed to sports and the fumes. Half the troop is under the age of 13 and a quarter is under the age of 12. We are going to have to actually teach the PLC, such that it is, how to do the skills and then get them to retain the information long enough to teach it to their patrols.
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