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InquisitiveScouter started following What is Going On With the OA
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Some new norm, some freak anomaly... 1. Still should be youth ( <21 y.o.) run election from Lodge... does not have to be your chapter. In fact, if you had youth in your Troop who were OA members, and were trained in running elections, your Troop could do its own election. Has to be "blessed" by your lodge... Adults (>= 21) should in no way be running the election. This happened with our election last year, as no youth were available the night of our Troop election. I thought we should reschedule, but SM and Lodge wanted it done... smh. 2. Camping nights are still required. Election team does not check this... this is done by SM, who must certify eligible from the unit. Criteria here, https://oa-scouting.org/about/membership That said, I have seen unit leaders certify camping nights when they should not have.... 3. Not sure what you mean here, "The only adult, 21+, was voted on and not nominated." Adults are nominated by the Troop committee... was this your process?? 4. Yes, everyone "eligible" can get elected now. All you need is 50% of those present to vote for you. Say your unit has 5 eligible and 20 Scouts present. Each ballot can list five names. If all five candidates receive a minimum of 10 votes, they are in. smh I take a slightly different tack that @skeptic, and this has been a heated topic in the past.... Here are my thoughts and beliefs, supported by mountains of literature on and from OA... many take a different thought-path, though... A. As @skeptic says, "It pretty much lost any real credibility, in my view, when it stopped putting limits on how many could be elected in a unit..." Agree. OA is no longer really an "honor society" within Scouting, if everyone can get in. That said, we did have a Scout who did not really do anything for the Troop and his fellow Scouts other than show up... his buddies did not select him for OA membership. But that is the only one I have seen in the time since the election rules changed. B. Order of the Arrow recognition is unit-level. There is no written guidance on what "approval of the Scoutmaster" means, other than the written requirements for membership linked above. For any unit leader to inject their personal observations into it makes the process capricious and one showing favoritism. However, if a Scout, who is First Class or above, is not living up to the Scout Oath and Law, the the unit leader should tell the Scout specifically before the OA election, give corrective behavior and goals, and sign off a Scoutmaster Conference for the next rank. (If Scout continues poor behavior, then should be brought up with Troop Committee and let the Scout know he will not be signed off on STAR (or LIFE) requirement #2 "...demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law." ) If the Scoutmaster deems a Scout is eligible, his name should be on the ballot, WHETHER THE SCOUT INTENDS TO COMPLETE THE ORDEAL OR NOT. Simply being elected to the Order of the Arrow is the honor the unit gets to bestow upon their fellow Scouts. It is not about future service to the Lodge... that is what the Brotherhood recognition is for... "An Arrowman's first duty is to his unit." https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/24-413.pdf https://oa-scouting.org/article/thoughts-arrowmans-primary-duty C. When I talk with Scouts about potential OA membership, I tell them there is NO OBLIGATION to serve the Lodge after undertaking the Ordeal. There is an obligation to continue serving the unit. "...the ones who chose you need you." There are TWO different "statuses"... one is membership in the Order of the Arrow (for which you wear your sash); the second is membership in the Lodge (for which you wear your flap. Once you pass the Ordeal (without flinching ) you are ALWAYS A MEMBER OF THE ORDER OF THE ARROW. However, once you pass the Ordeal, you must pay your annual dues to be a member of the local lodge. In the WImachtendienk, Amangiechsin
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OA in my area is basically a joke as described by Eagle94. I know that Jan 1st a bunch of changes went into affect and it's blowing up what was already a barely hanging on for relevance program that OA became.
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You likely do not want to have some responses of we old people that were elected long ago. It pretty much lost any real credibility, in my view, when it stopped putting limits on how many could be elected in a unit, and ceremonies were done with youth reading from a piece of paper and often with little or no obvious prep. Today, since I am still the on paper SM, though not active directly, I get the notices which I forward to my younger adults. I have counseled them with "my opinion" that if they choose to be in the election then they also have to commit to the Ordeal and at least some initial participation. Otherwise, I will not approve their being elected. The SM still has veto power, and I choose to use it in this. Our local lodge now is challenged to even find a place to do stuff, as they sold all our camps. The SE told me they do a good job helping around the office; hmmmmm.
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I have been inactive for quite some time. Once the kids became Cubs, I had to pick and choose what to focus on, and OA went out the window. My chapter essentially folded circa 2017, as that was the last time elections were held. Tried to get them to come, no response. Well the SM got a neighboring chapter to come in for an election. Yep our chapter is dead, and the hope is the chapter can get restarted. But here is the funny thing. 1. The chapter advisor ran the entire election process. Youth basically said their names and whether they were Brotherhood or Vigil. 2. As long as you were First Class, the camping no longer mattered. 3. The only adult, 21+, was voted on and not nominated. 4. Everyone seemed to get elected, including folks who had just joined the troop, and no one really knows them. While I am glad they got elected, This shocked me. Is this now the norm, or a freak anomaly?
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That would be great. It would also be great if 75% of the troop actually wanted to be there rather than being forced to be there by their parents. Most of them want to be on their phone or running around. We've tried to give them ideas for games, given them resources, even conducted a game or two to show them how to play it. They always move back into some "game" that has no apparent rules. The rest want to sit on their phones and play games. They have no desire to be good at Scout skills. No desire to plan or prepare for the campout that is coming up. We've given them guidance on what to practice for the camporee because their skills across the board are not up to snuff. Half the Scouts First Class and above can't tie anything other than a square knot. We have 3 PLs that have no interest in the job. Our SPL was elected for some reason that escapes the kids who actually want to be there. He's constantly lost, does no prep work outside of Scout meetings, and has to be constantly reminded about everything. He was teaching lashings last week and taught them incorrectly. The ASPL was the previous SPL and he acts like an 11 y/o most of the time. The SM told me last week that it would be great to put together a patrol of kids who actually want to be there and put the rest into two other patrols. Then we can just let those two patrols do whatever while the rest actually do the program.
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How do I point out to the SM that his actions are questionable?
Tron replied to Armymutt's topic in Open Discussion - Program
I don't get the BOR thing. Scouts should lead the meetings. Adults don't have to be registered to sit on a BOR. Adults should be in the back/outside/under a rock STFU. That means if a scout needs a BOR, there shouldn't be a problem grabbing 3-6 adults and doing a 15min BOR at any moment. - Last week
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I do not know where you live, but in my neck of the woods $237 IS a lot of money for folks, especially with multiple kids. I am in a rural area with high poverty rate. As for value, (sarcasm on) what's a professional? Are those the paid folks who are supposed to help units with recruiting? I have heard of these mythical creatures, and thought they were extinct since it has been so long since I have seen one.(sarcasm off) If I wasn't trying to laugh, I would be crying.
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Having been raised in a troop that had BoRs monthly, I don’t see that as a problem. But, if they flex their schedule, they really should flex with scouts. Does a month here or there really matter? Probably not. But if it doesn’t, then setting aside time for 2nd BoR shouldn’t matter either. On the other hand, you’re stuck with the culture you have. Leave a little grace to consider that the SM may have acted the way he did with this scout because he wasn’t pleased with how things went down three months ago. He knew he couldn’t adjust the BoR schedule, so the path of least resistance was to be available on weekends to conference ambitious scouts.
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How do I point out to the SM that his actions are questionable?
Tron replied to Armymutt's topic in Open Discussion - Program
I would just raise the issue as is. Hey SM, the last SM popped smoke after being accused of favoritism, etc ... what you just did screams favoritism and we need to address it before the unit gets hurt. What's the SM and CC going to do? Kick you out of a troop you're already thinking about leaving? -
In regard to the Youth, my only counsel is to keep them in focus and do not let adult things interfere. Every unit is different and has myriad issues and personalities. None of us can "fix" things all the time. IF the adult leadership is an issue, and you cannot work within it to the benefit of the youth, then perhaps that decision to find another option for yourself is viable. As often noted; all units would be great if we could keep the adults in the background. Scouting is still one of the most shining options for the malaise of America, or the U.S. We do what we can and pray a lot.
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Armymutt started following How do I point out to the SM that his actions are questionable?
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I'm an ASM and one of the things I do is track our Scouts below Star to provide a resource for planning to the PLC. I was updating my tracker last night and noticed a Scout that needed to fulfill Second Class 8c and 8d on Tuesday night was signed off, along with the SM conference. I distinctly remember this Scout needed those because I counseled him on it on Tuesday night toward the end of the meeting. I pointed out to the SM today that me may have mismarked it in SB because it wasn't done on Tuesday. He said that he met with the Scout this weekend and completed the requirements then, along with holding a SM conference. Contrast this with another Scout who completed all of the requirements for Second Class short of a BOR, was denied a BOR for November due to Veterans Day falling on our meeting night. He finished up First Class, minus the SM Conference before the end of November. Our BOR night is normally the second week of the month. For some reason, the CC decided to move BOR night up a week. The Scout was denied a SM conference that night before the BOR, so he could only complete the Second Class BOR that night and had to wait another month for First Class. Never was an SM conference offered on a weekend. No public announcement of offering to complete any requirements was made, other than swimming, this past weekend, and the SM was not in attendance at that event. The optics are really poor here. The troop was accused of favoritism under the last SM. It feels like the Scouts from this family are being favored over the rest of the troop. The Scout's older brother was slammed through rank progression as fast as they could. The excuse being that he is 15 and has a short timeline. Meanwhile, the Scout lacks the skills his current rank indicates that he should possess. So how do I tell the SM that this is an unacceptable way to do business? At this point, I'm ready to move to another unit, even if it adds another 15 minutes to my drive. Between the CC and SM being married and unwilling to relinquish either role and a complete lack of transparency on the troop finances, it's frustrating.
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legalhigh joined the community
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Chapter 11 announced - Part 14 - Plan Effective
clbkbx replied to MYCVAStory's topic in Issues & Politics
I get your point. I thought it was up to this amount and assumed it would be lower. -
Chapter 11 announced - Part 14 - Plan Effective
johnsch322 replied to MYCVAStory's topic in Issues & Politics
Not sure how 141 IRO cases could take 80% of additional insurance money. If only $4 Billion more is recovered how could the average settlement be an average of 27 million. -
Chapter 11 announced - Part 14 - Plan Effective
BadChannel70 replied to MYCVAStory's topic in Issues & Politics
Other reasons why the insurers wanted to move the case from Texas federal court to Illinois state court: 1. Trying to start at the bottom of the food chain with state court. Don't have to worry about that as this case is now wading its way through federal court. Less delay starting closer to the top of the food chain. 2. Attempt to freeze case indefinitely under Colorado River abstention. Denied which equals less delay. 3. Judge stated in opinion, "“Texas law is likely to apply to many of the issues in this case.” Texas has very strong bad faith statutes. In addition, historically Texas juries are not friendly to coverage avoidance particularly involving childhood sexual abuse claims and Texas has stiff Insurance Code penalties. Yes, the insurers can delay but the more they delay, the door opens more wide for "bad faith" penalties. In Texas, if a jury finds bad faith where policy benefits are withheld, damages are not capped and attorney fees are recoverable. I am sure this is one of reasons why bad faith was included in the lawsuit. In short, risk is growing exponentially for the insurers. A normal loss = policy limits A bad-faith loss = uncapped damages. -
Chapter 11 announced - Part 14 - Plan Effective
clbkbx replied to MYCVAStory's topic in Issues & Politics
It seems like it has ended with a muted thud. SC appeals are over, most people are resigned to getting 10% or less of any award, SOL claimants left behind, Trust doesn’t really communicate anything because there’s nothing to say, SSS issue will work its way through (likely by decreasing to what was originally expected/submitted), IRO unknown but probably will max out 80% of any additional insurance money, a new Scouting entity unencumbered by liabilities associated with decades of covering up sexual abuse, insurance companies slightly less wealthy but still very wealthy… everyone goes home having been put through the ringer of an unjust system. I wish you all the best. -
Some of these issues were caused by the councils and how they have things configured in AKELA. For example, one of my units hit "the naughty list" for not rechartering timely and I was confused so I spoke with the COR; the COR completed recharter the first week of December (all online). I then went to the DE and let him know that the unit rechartered online the first week of December, and was promptly notified that "whoopsie" council has an "introduced" manual process that blocks all recharters for a manual review that caused the issue. We're never going to have a smooth process if the professionals are introducing extra steps to try and keep this 1970's style. $237 isn't a lot of money in the grand scheme of things but what are the scouts getting back for that? The fee's are not bad if the scouts are getting value back; I just don't see the value back when visiting these high fee councils. One of the councils adjacent to mine has a $160 council fee; they have 18 more fulltime paid staff than my council and they have several hundred fewer scouts; what value is that council getting?
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Different experience here... 1. The new registration regime actually caused more work to ensure that Scouts remained registered, and could, therefore, enjoy the benefits of "membership". (I'll elaborate on that in a bit.) Because the transaction now goes directly from family to BSA, the burden of action was shifted to the family. Most families are not fully on top of all the minutiae they have to manage in their lives, and the required action of reading the emails from National (which probably went to spam) and figuring out what to do to register their Scout (admittedly a very low priority), especially around the holiday period, meant that about one third of our Scouts did not have a current paid registration going into recharter. 2. Once the recharter process started, our Troop became "locked" somehow, and no adults or Scouts who delayed could register in the unit until the recharter was complete. Those who attempted got some sort of "Unit Not Valid" message, and the system would not process their registration or payment. Now you have doubled or tripled the amount of work a family / Troop has to do to get on top of this, as they have to monitor the recharter, then notify parents to try again, and then do the payment process again. 3. Even though there is a "grace" period for individual registrations, until the unit recharter went through, adults in our unit/district/council could not manipulate calendars or input advancements (we'd get a message for a Scout that said they did not have a valid membership.) After a huge outcry to District Commissioners/District Staffs/Registrar/Council Staff (folks at our January Roundtable were quite testy), the council office pulled folks from other duties to assist Registrar in tasks needed to complete the effort. Still not done for all units due to adult application issues (for position changes to make sure a unit has the required leadership to recharter), but the majority in our District are now done. Finally, consider the amount of money being wasted on this process... every family has to pay something like a 3% convenience fee to do this online with a credit card. For those who went to the Scout office and paid in person, because this was an option presented to avoid the card fee, their registrations were held up until staff went through that paperwork in office. (Of course, the checks were cashed right away, but renewals were delayed... optics on that not so good either.) I'm with @Tron... these two actions should be de-coupled by some significant space in the calendar. My take: Units should be prompted to renew FIRST. Once a unit renewal is complete for the next year, the demand signal for individuals to renew their memberships in that unit should go out... There are a lot more moving parts to this, I'm sure...
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I don't think this was a blunder. From what I have witnessed this was a good thing. Just to be clear as to what I was seeing in my area; we had a pack charging $500 pack dues and blaming council & national. Now that it has become infinitely harder for that pack to munge all the dues together at 1 point in the year and blame recharter, council, national, santa claus, and whomever else for the steep fees that pack is down to single digit membership because all of the cubs in that area are going to other packs now. Whatever happens going forward membership cannot overlap with recharter; membership with national and council "service fees" have to be clearly defined so as to prevent bad units from scalping parents.
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Chapter 11 announced - Part 14 - Plan Effective
Patt_00 replied to MYCVAStory's topic in Issues & Politics
I want to give an update on the Trust Claim submissions by the Slater firm. I spoke to my attorney Larry Friedman. The 3rd party neutral which Slater claims must pass through before they can proceed to the Trust for evaluation is identifying inconsistencies between survivors Omni Proof of Claims and their Trust Claim questionnaires. Larry and his teams work has found MOST of these are the result of extremely sloppy work by Slater attorneys when preparing their clients documents. A little over a month ago, I received an AIR (additional information request) from the Trust. This was due to sloppy work by Slater attorneys. Larry submitted the information that was requested on my behalf and less than 30 days later I received my award determination. I am ecstatic with my claim determination and have submitted my acceptance package. Even this late in the process survivors represented by Slater, past and present, should have a qualified professional helping them respond to Trust AIR's. If anyone would like Larry's contact info, I would be happy to provide it. I'm sure everyone is aware that Slater is placing liens on their former clients awards. Larry and the Trust are putting in a process to escrow the attorney fees needed to satisfy the liens. This means the 36% of our claims Slater is putting a lien on will be held in an interest bearing escrow account and the remaining 64% can be distributed to survivors. This way the Trust can continue processing and paying claims to Slater clients.
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Posts
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By InquisitiveScouter · Posted
Some new norm, some freak anomaly... 1. Still should be youth ( <21 y.o.) run election from Lodge... does not have to be your chapter. In fact, if you had youth in your Troop who were OA members, and were trained in running elections, your Troop could do its own election. Has to be "blessed" by your lodge... Adults (>= 21) should in no way be running the election. This happened with our election last year, as no youth were available the night of our Troop election. I thought we should reschedule, but SM and Lodge wanted it done... smh. 2. Camping nights are still required. Election team does not check this... this is done by SM, who must certify eligible from the unit. Criteria here, https://oa-scouting.org/about/membership That said, I have seen unit leaders certify camping nights when they should not have.... 3. Not sure what you mean here, "The only adult, 21+, was voted on and not nominated." Adults are nominated by the Troop committee... was this your process?? 4. Yes, everyone "eligible" can get elected now. All you need is 50% of those present to vote for you. Say your unit has 5 eligible and 20 Scouts present. Each ballot can list five names. If all five candidates receive a minimum of 10 votes, they are in. smh I take a slightly different tack that @skeptic, and this has been a heated topic in the past.... Here are my thoughts and beliefs, supported by mountains of literature on and from OA... many take a different thought-path, though... A. As @skeptic says, "It pretty much lost any real credibility, in my view, when it stopped putting limits on how many could be elected in a unit..." Agree. OA is no longer really an "honor society" within Scouting, if everyone can get in. That said, we did have a Scout who did not really do anything for the Troop and his fellow Scouts other than show up... his buddies did not select him for OA membership. But that is the only one I have seen in the time since the election rules changed. B. Order of the Arrow recognition is unit-level. There is no written guidance on what "approval of the Scoutmaster" means, other than the written requirements for membership linked above. For any unit leader to inject their personal observations into it makes the process capricious and one showing favoritism. However, if a Scout, who is First Class or above, is not living up to the Scout Oath and Law, the the unit leader should tell the Scout specifically before the OA election, give corrective behavior and goals, and sign off a Scoutmaster Conference for the next rank. (If Scout continues poor behavior, then should be brought up with Troop Committee and let the Scout know he will not be signed off on STAR (or LIFE) requirement #2 "...demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law." ) If the Scoutmaster deems a Scout is eligible, his name should be on the ballot, WHETHER THE SCOUT INTENDS TO COMPLETE THE ORDEAL OR NOT. Simply being elected to the Order of the Arrow is the honor the unit gets to bestow upon their fellow Scouts. It is not about future service to the Lodge... that is what the Brotherhood recognition is for... "An Arrowman's first duty is to his unit." https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/24-413.pdf https://oa-scouting.org/article/thoughts-arrowmans-primary-duty C. When I talk with Scouts about potential OA membership, I tell them there is NO OBLIGATION to serve the Lodge after undertaking the Ordeal. There is an obligation to continue serving the unit. "...the ones who chose you need you." There are TWO different "statuses"... one is membership in the Order of the Arrow (for which you wear your sash); the second is membership in the Lodge (for which you wear your flap. Once you pass the Ordeal (without flinching ) you are ALWAYS A MEMBER OF THE ORDER OF THE ARROW. However, once you pass the Ordeal, you must pay your annual dues to be a member of the local lodge. In the WImachtendienk, Amangiechsin -
OA in my area is basically a joke as described by Eagle94. I know that Jan 1st a bunch of changes went into affect and it's blowing up what was already a barely hanging on for relevance program that OA became.
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You likely do not want to have some responses of we old people that were elected long ago. It pretty much lost any real credibility, in my view, when it stopped putting limits on how many could be elected in a unit, and ceremonies were done with youth reading from a piece of paper and often with little or no obvious prep. Today, since I am still the on paper SM, though not active directly, I get the notices which I forward to my younger adults. I have counseled them with "my opinion" that if they choose to be in the election then they also have to commit to the Ordeal and at least some initial participation. Otherwise, I will not approve their being elected. The SM still has veto power, and I choose to use it in this. Our local lodge now is challenged to even find a place to do stuff, as they sold all our camps. The SE told me they do a good job helping around the office; hmmmmm.
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By Eagle94-A1 · Posted
I have been inactive for quite some time. Once the kids became Cubs, I had to pick and choose what to focus on, and OA went out the window. My chapter essentially folded circa 2017, as that was the last time elections were held. Tried to get them to come, no response. Well the SM got a neighboring chapter to come in for an election. Yep our chapter is dead, and the hope is the chapter can get restarted. But here is the funny thing. 1. The chapter advisor ran the entire election process. Youth basically said their names and whether they were Brotherhood or Vigil. 2. As long as you were First Class, the camping no longer mattered. 3. The only adult, 21+, was voted on and not nominated. 4. Everyone seemed to get elected, including folks who had just joined the troop, and no one really knows them. While I am glad they got elected, This shocked me. Is this now the norm, or a freak anomaly? -
By Eagle94-A1 · Posted
Glad you got a good job, cause i sure don't.
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