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These are all fair points, @yknot. I do think scarcity of time is still a factor in the scouts vs. sports debate, but I may be overestimating its impact for the reasons you mentioned. My son is pretty keen on basketball, but if he gets dropped from the top team, I think he'll pivot to football where he can at least be on the team and be "one of the guys." I do hope he sticks with Scouting, even if it always takes a backseat to sports, but it's up to him. He's already given it a good try. What would factor into his decision? I assume some combination of: Which carries greater prestige in the school / community? Probably Football. Which increases his chance of getting dates in high school? Probably Football Which looks better on a scholarship application? Probably Scouting (but it's closer than most will admit) Teenage Whims / Randomness

My point in this Scouts vs. Sports thread is that most families/kids interested in youth sports type activities are not going to be interested in scouting no matter how many free nights they have available.* That's because the activity doesn't appeal much to a lot of them in the first place. A few hours of possible fun on a monthly camp out isn't what they are looking for. Another point is that sports exclusivity to the degree claimed by scouters is largely a myth. There are regional differences but opportunities for play at middle school and high school levels have only expanded, both in and out of school. Specialization, injury/rest protocols, tiered programs/leagues, freshman teams, and emerging sports have increased roster sizes and broadened options across the board. Ages also don't really align -- if you're talking about JV or Varsity play, a significant percentage of scouts have already moved on from scouting by then. Sports is not keeping them from scouting. If you are talking cub scout or cross over ages, take a look at the mandatory requirements for AOL. The most appealing active adventure, Outdoors, has practically no actual activity prescribed in it. There is not much there to appeal to an active 10 year old. That is why scout membership is declining, not because of youth sports. It is wasted energy for scouters to be distracted by sports instead of focusing on why scouting itself isn't more appealing to youth and families. Another observation as a parent volunteer in both youth sports and scouts is that too many adults in scouting want the program to be what they think "kids today" need vs. just serving youth. For a supposedly youth led organization, adults layer an awful lot onto the program and it has made it stultifying in some aspects. *Shorter statured basketball players, even gifted ones, start having free nights once the height equation kicks in. You don't see a huge wave of them showing up in scouts in middle school and early high school though. They generally transition to another sport just as you are looking at football. What would scouting have to do to make the activity more appealing to your basketball player than football?

Do not know if this happens in sports still, know it does with music, but the activity is a grade, you don't make practice, attend a game, etc and you lose points off your grade. For example, all the football players tended to have the same PE class. However during season, practice and games was the PE class, and that period was used as a mandatory study hall for the player. Ditto other sports. Band would get a study period for major activities only.

I wouldn't discount the impact youth sports has had on Scouting's decline. There are only so many nights each week a family can devote to kids' activities. I agree there are other issues for Scouting to address, but this is a Scouts vs. Sports thread. You're correct - it's a mistake to conflate making a varsity roster with success just the same as it is to only consider Scouts who earn Eagle a success. However, IF you're in a large suburban school district AND your son desires to play a varsity team sport (besides football), they pretty much have to lock-in around 5th or 6th grade (which can crowd out other activities, including Scouting). This is unusual in my region. A junior playing JV would take a roster spot and playing time from a freshmen or sophomore who is still developing. Coaches use this option sparingly (like when they have a talented senior class and don't want to cut all of the juniors). In my region, lacrosse is still a club sport while hockey usually operates as a co-op (several schools combine to outfit one team). Football is the great equalizer with an unlimited roster, but participation comes with greater health risks. I don't think my wife and I would mind if our son played high school football, but we'd rather first see how far he can go with basketball.

Or, from my observations and stories I have heard (?) they do not have to worry about not being allowed to particpate as they can, in most cases. No absolutes of course, but the sports stories are numerous, and I have encountered a Scout on occasion that had a coach tell them it was either or, and no matter, if he missed a pracice he was benched or even off the "team". Have to wonder the definition of team here of course.

Things are different depending on where you are. Juniors who don't make varsity can still play JV in most cases. Some of those juniors won't make Varsity as seniors, but there are other extracurricular options and most of them will still see three good years of play at the high school level. You are doing what most scouters do -- focus comparisons on the single, final, high school senior year of a student athlete's entire career. It's even less relevant when you look at how many scouts are not even active or in scouting by that age. As far as rosters, baseball, soccer, football, and even basketball carry pretty large numbers. We haven't talked about Lacrosse or Winter ice hockey. In regions where those sports are common, they can carry even bigger rosters -- 20 to 30. There are also plenty of situations in scouting where youth can't make the "cut" for something -- activities that have limited head counts or prerequisites that are harder for some kids to meet for whatever reason. And if you are in a unit that is Eagle or First Class First Year focused, which many are, scouts can absolutely get left behind by peers if they miss things. I don't see much point in attacking youth sports for scouts' membership decline. I think it's irrelevant. Issues with scouting are why it is in decline. Trying to blame sports is a nonproductive distraction away from those issues in my opinion.

It took me a bit, but I found the part that defines this situation. Your description is not accurate as the gap would be >5 days. The council could define it as a "day camp" or not if the gap is 5 days or more. "Except for day camps as provided below, a camp is an overnight program . In determining the length of a camp, count all nights where any participants (other than staff) are present with substantially the same camp leadership or camp staff, regardless of what the camp is called, unless there is a gap of five or more nights between sessions . Camp includes the following classifications: 1 . Day camps . A day camp is a council-organized program designed for Scouts for two or more days, under council-retained leadership at an approved site with no overnight . The program may operate at age-appropriate Cub Scout, Scouts BSA, Venturer, or Sea Scout level . A council may choose to treat a one-day event (without an overnight) as a day camp."

Care to point out where it is defined this way?

I think you need to account for the fact that BOTH juniors and seniors compete for varsity spots (along with some promising underclassmen). If the roster size for baseball, basketball, and soccer is 25 (that's being generous for baseball and basketball), and the distribution by class is roughly 40% seniors, 40% juniors, and 20% underclassmen, that works out to roughly 10 kids per grade among the upper classes. In our example of 200 boys, assume maybe 1/4 fall into the "hopeful demographic" (this is consistent with what I've seen in youth basketball where about 50 boys come out every year). That works out to only 10 of 50 "hopefuls" (20%) who are able to play a varsity sport. My son only does two activities - Basketball and Cub Scouts. I think he's relieved to go to Cub Scouts sometimes because he doesn't have to worry about competing. And sure, a family can still spend A LOT on Scouting if they desire, but there's no "arm's race" like you see in youth sports. A scout doesn't need to participate in every activity or risk being outpaced by peers.

It is never simply apples and oranges in these comparisons. So many other things affect the outcomes and the possibilities. Too often the broad brushes just smear the actual info and ultimate data. All activities have some kind of cost, though some are far more expensive monetarily. Yet, often the kids just want to participate on their own terms. We used to often play the now almost defunct baseball game, work up. It allowed many more players if they chose to wait the rotations. Another baseball type game was three flys up. Pick up games still exist, though too often they get taken over by bullies and bigger kids, which is sad. I was fortunate to have a place on HS teams, but I was not a star, just a needed body with basic skills. No easy and absolute answers or solutions. But, we still need to make the effort.

@mylo_cat, I think I know who in particular helped you. Rock solid customer service. Excellent display skills. He used cordage instead of screws to put up display racks. I hope you get to visit the shop and thank the staff in person. ETA: They would love a thank-you with picture. Seriously, they work for bonuses in smiles.

I don't understand the math here. Rosters for most varsity level team sports are 20-25 kids -- baseball, basketball, soccer. If your eligible demographic is 200 kids, that's at least 10% of the grade. But that's also probably 50% of the hopeful demographic that actually wants to play the sport. Not every kid in the grade wants to play a sport or make the commitment to play it at such a competitive and all consuming level, but scouting seems to like to assume that everyone does. There are also plenty of nonschool options for kids that don't make Varsity cuts and they are not all high end travel. Like scouting, there are teams and leagues at all levels of play. Do a certain percentage of kids and parents aspire to be the star starting player in a sport and pursue it that way? Yes, of course, but scouting seems to like to exaggerate that number to blame declining interest in scouting on sports.

On the same day you shared this link, I received an email from my local council advertising a spot on its 2026 Philmont contingent for $2,400. 😛 I wonder how much the decline in high school football participation (where roster size is unlimited) has led to parents funneling their kids to other team sports (where roster sizes are limited)? If you Google this, I think you'll find participation hasn't dropped but rather remained stagnant even as the US population has increased. I still think the biggest issue is scarcity, which drives an "arm's race" for parents to get their kid on a high school team. Take a large suburban high school with 1,600 kids - that's 400 kids per class (or roughly 200 of each gender). When they become upperclassmen, how many kids in each class can actually play varsity soccer, basketball, or baseball/softball? 10? That might even be generous, depending on the number of underclassmen pushing for a roster spot. Even an inclusive sport like cross country caps varsity rosters at 7 or 8. You can have 50 boys or girls go out for cross country every year, but most of them will just be participating in a glorified workout club (not that there's anything wrong with kids getting exercise after school).

You guys have to be careful here. A "day camp" is also an event that 1 day but "recurring". So say you have a 1 day skills tournament district event. If you repeat that within the same calendar year months apart and with a different name but exactly the same "whatever" it is now a "day camp" and must follow NCAP. Like I said, there is a lot of gray area out there and there are too many 22 year olds that can pivot to a different career and nothing worth a lick out there making decisions and spouting non-sense.

We have a very good relationship with our CO and as long as we continue to support their service program to the community they not only charter us but cut all of the units a check to cover advancement and administrative costs. This allows us to focus all cost on the average cost of an outing; we do make adults pay their own way on outings which also keeps the costs down for the scouts (part of that is so many of us leaders would be camping regardless so we've created low cost for scouts troop). My troop is also in a state where there are ways to get state campsites for free/super reduced for youth organizations; so when we use state properties for camping we're basically cutting the site cost out. The troop in the past has had campouts as cheap as $4 a head, there is a neighboring troop that does this as well. To be clear we've average the cost of outings to $25 to make everything easier and more consistent for parents. I personally think we could get the cost down closer to or below $15. We have a very large troop so there is an economy of scale that we have yet to leverage correctly. This methodology becomes a success-begets-success situation. As the average number of scouts and adults per outing goes up, the average cost of site rentals spreads thinner and thinner across more people. We still have some outings where portion sizes are out of control; we need to get better at teaching the scouts to read portion sizes (especially on dehydrated foods) more accurately; we could shave some cost off of food as well. Circling back to adults paying their own way; I know that there are units that can't do this. We have an economy of scale situation where we just re-registered 34 troop leaders and we're looking to pick up at least 4 more at crossover in March. There is a core of about 10 of us that go on every outing, we have about another 5 that do some outings. The remainder of leaders perform that more administrative purpose. A troop that has 6 leaders period can't do this right? If you have 3 leaders that can't afford pay their own way on every outing the troop is forced to figure something out which is often that the cost is passed on to the scouts. This economy of scale situation also keeps costs down for the scouts as there are so many of us that just order something online and donate it when the troop needs it instead of the troop having to budget a lot for equipment maintenance and replacement.

Something on my newsfeed. https://sports.yahoo.com/articles/soaring-price-youth-sports-50-174913819.html

You hit the nail on the head again. Our unit send some poorly written emails and it drives my wife nuts. But the senders are willing to do the work and they do it pretty well, so you'll never hear me gripe about their communication style. Their efforts have made the Pack's program much stronger, but some people can't get past the amateur emails because they're used to a higher standard at work or through other kids' activities run by a for-profit operator.

A few more suggestions: take responsibility for portions of a family reunion (differentiated from immediate family) assist with a local parks and rec event (doesn't require an ongoing commitment) participate in a school service project (again, doesn't have to be an ongoing commitment) contribute to an online discussion (with parent supervision) write a letter to the editor of the local paper (civic engagement) I hope this Scout is able to earn Eagle, if he desires, but I would think improving his grades should take priority over a merit badge. Not every Scout needs to aim for straight A's, but passing all classes is a fair expectation.

Circa 2012 to 2014.

When NCAP started, day activity like PWD had to follow NCAP? What year was that? Are you sure? It is only like 5 years or so that camporees and OA weekends had to follow NCAP and brought about the "Short Term Camp Administrator" concept. That was a big shock to people.

I see now that day camp is at least 2 days now. when NCAP started, that wasn't the case, and a district single day activity, like PWD, had to follow NCAP.

My old troop had 1 fundraiser a year. Every Scout had a goal to sell x number of plates. Paid for all advancement, weekend campouts (except food, $ varied by patrol) and depending upon the year 50% to 100% of summer camp. Before National skyrocketed the dues, also paid that and Boy's Life. Depending upon where you are at, you can get by cheaply, especially backpacking. One national forest nearby has no fees for backpackers. One state park charges only for parking if you are backpacking. One place we went biking cost us $100 for everyone for the weekend. That was less than $10/person. Key is willingness to explore new places.

As mentioned, the $250 trip is for three days in Vermont with dogsledding and cross-country skiing or biking. Snow Base (in Wisconsin? Minnesota?) charges $289 for their dogsledding trips, so this price isn't outrageous for what it is. How are you doing $25 with no Troop dues? Our Troop dues cover advancement items (merit badges, rank patches, cards, Eagle kits) and camping reservations, along with trailer registration, adult registration, and a bunch of miscellaneous things. A mid-size cabin in our scout camp will run us about $250 for the weekend, and tenting sites are $100. Camping fees are just for food. We don't charge adults to camp, so the $35-$40 from each scout covers both scout and adult food.

I will also point out: social media posts intended to trigger rise up on feeds. Meanwhile proper discourse like what people may ponder in this moderated forum is not clickable. Even if a decent comment from a seasoned scouter here were to get memeified, it would be framed so terribly that half of us would think their membership should be revoked. When I was advising my coed crew, my most strident opponents provided some excellent program activities for my youth. Words may hurt me, but sticks and stones make for a great cooking fire.

I’m afraid that your expected timeline for change is far too soon. Seven or eight years is far too soon for any of these young women to rescue the lost in an avalanche, explore some unknown frontier, lead her nation through war, secure a peace, or become mom of the year or any of the other feats where, as such an adult, she will look back and say her time on the trail to eagle was the first step toward the rarified height where she now stands. Then and only then will people not have time to complain about the rise of a single scouting program for Americans of both sexes. I have a niece who I believed was presidential material. She balked when I said it years ago. She is now on her school board. I envision in another decade or two half of you will be voting for her, and the other half will be making up partisan excuses not to. (I’m just writing this now to be able to link to it in the future.) But for that to happen, she will have prevail in a sea of nay-sayers. Same for my daughter when she’d play dress-up. I told her to never settle for princess, or even queen. It’s empress or bust. The metaphor still applies now that she is an engineer solving a major corporation’s largest problems. My son’s wives are in similar positions. I sincerely hope one day they have their own firm. But that kind of growth only occurs when those who oppose you manifest for who they are. These “bullies” are doing your scouts a favor. They have something to overcome. It will make them great.