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#21 fred johnson

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 11:02 AM

I get scared when I see discussion of checklists and evaluation criteria.  IMHO, this is more a power issue and a way for adults to justify their position and also a way to insert themselves into the process.  

 

I'd highly recommend reading GTA and then BSA advancement news and other sources.

 

 

I think the best comment comes from the Feb 2012 BSA advancement news ...  https://www.scouting...512-075_Feb.pdf

 

"In any of these scenarios if the youth makes a reasonable effort to fulfill the duties described, the requirement should be considered fulfilled."

 

IMHO, the best way to evaluate PORs is for the scout and the SM to talk about it during the scout's SMC.  It's the natural time to talk about how the scout his helping the troop and the natural place to sign off on the POR.


Edited by fred johnson, 13 November 2017 - 11:05 AM.

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#22 Tampa Turtle

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 11:20 AM

We had a SM that had a 4 page POR contract with sign-offs, metrics, etc. We were tasked with going over the contract with each boy at the start of their term...their eyes would just glaze over after the first 15 seconds. I think it rarely works but adults have to put up with these things in the working world so why not spread the horror earlier? 

 

I have on occasion helped coach a few confounded POR's at the SPL's request (Historian, Librarian, OA Rep, Chaplin Aide). I would go over the BSA duties (for some like OA Rep it is pretty hard) and stress they need to DO something, what do they intend to do, do they need any help from the PLC (or me), etc. I can see a little counseling when they get 'stuck' but I see it as more of a Brownshirt than a Committee job.


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#23 prof

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 11:22 AM

All,

Thanks so much for your replies!

My troop is in a bit of a rebuilding period.

I kinda figured how to proceed, but as a courtesy to the other committee members, thought I would ask your opinions in case I was missing something (which I often do!)

So again, my thanks!

 

Fred,

Thanks for those links!! Very useful!

Prof!


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#24 John-in-KC

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 12:20 PM

This is the job of the Scoutmaster, teaching the SPL how to monitor performance. 

 

That's the long and short of it.


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#25 TAHAWK

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 12:59 PM

We had success with "tickets" written by the Scout.   He had to have three measurable goals.  The "ticket" could only be one page.  The SM periodically discussed the SPL's progress with him.  The SPL periodically discussed the other position-holder's progress.  "Tickets" were subject to amendment pretty freely.  The hard part was helping them pick goals that they could control, rather than goals that depended heavily on others' performance.  The goals were to provide draw, not to be barriers.  Thought and planning was expected as training in life skills.  Effort was the major issue.


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#26 qwazse

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 07:33 AM

@prof, let us know what your people ultimately settle on and how it works.


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#27 Tampa Turtle

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 07:41 AM

We had success with "tickets" written by the Scout.   He had to have three measurable goals.  The "ticket" could only be one page.  The SM periodically discussed the SPL's progress with him.  The SPL periodically discussed the other position-holder's progress.  "Tickets" were subject to amendment pretty freely.  The hard part was helping them pick goals that they could control, rather than goals that depended heavily on others' performance.  The goals were to provide draw, not to be barriers.  Thought and planning was expected as training in life skills.  Effort was the major issue.

KISS principles apply here. Some boys will be extremely challenged planning the most ordinary duty and therefore this is a very worthwhile experience. When our Troop was large our ASPL monitored the progress and coordinated support so the SPL concentrated on the Patrol Leaders and Troop morale...


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#28 Stosh

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 07:58 AM

How much of this adult "evaluations" add to the requirement?

 

SM: "Hey, Johnny, how's that new PL of yours doing?"

Scout: "Great!"

 

SM: "I see there's a new QM."

PL: "Yep, Freddie said he wanted to give it a shot.  Doing okay, but not as good as the last guy.  We'll get by as he gets better."

 

Really?  What's so difficult about this whole thing?  If the boys are happy with the POR set up, why aren't the adults?  Start with the adult's problem instead.

 

This whole thread reeks of year-end job performance management practices of a large corporation doing multiple evaluations deciding on some supervisor's job promotion.  Now, if that doesn't suck the fun out of the issue, nothing will.


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#29 Eagledad

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 08:36 AM

 

 

This whole thread reeks of year-end job performance management practices of a large corporation doing multiple evaluations deciding on some supervisor's job promotion.  Now, if that doesn't suck the fun out of the issue, nothing will.

Really! The trend of the discussion appears just the opposite. I think the OP got very good responses.

 

Barry


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#30 deanofmac

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 08:55 AM

How much of this adult "evaluations" add to the requirement?

 

SM: "Hey, Johnny, how's that new PL of yours doing?"

Scout: "Great!"

 

SM: "I see there's a new QM."

PL: "Yep, Freddie said he wanted to give it a shot.  Doing okay, but not as good as the last guy.  We'll get by as he gets better."

 

Really?  What's so difficult about this whole thing?  If the boys are happy with the POR set up, why aren't the adults?  Start with the adult's problem instead.

 

This whole thread reeks of year-end job performance management practices of a large corporation doing multiple evaluations deciding on some supervisor's job promotion.  Now, if that doesn't suck the fun out of the issue, nothing will.

 

Exactly! Let the boys deal with it.

 

Scoutmaster Teddy


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Dean Roberts

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#31 blw2

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 09:07 AM

Just my opinion, but it is not the job of the unit committee to monitor how each boy is doing in their position of reasonability.  Let me take that back they can monitor by getting feedback from the SM on how the SM on how they are feeling the position, but that is all.    Also for advancement purposes if the youth holds the position then they are signed off on that position no matter how good are bad a job they did in that position.  It is alright for the SM to meet with the SPL to help him become a better SPL, but when it comes to the other youth positions it should be left to the SPL and the other youth in the troop mentor them in their position. 

another way the committee can and should "monitor" this sort of thing is through the boards of review....with the goal being to monitor the "health" of the troop and advise the SM....nothing more

 

Is it just me or do the responses seem a bit harsh?  .....

well, I had a somewhat "harsh" reaction to reading the post

    I think tampa turtles photo nailed it....

        ...as a natural reaction to arm the anti-aircraft defenses!

 

It's just another example of helicopter adults with too much time on their hands apparently, making up new ways to over complicate the works


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#32 fred johnson

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 10:50 AM

I wanted to make one more comment.  It's about philosophy.
 
Scouting is person-to-person.  Scouting is doing and interacting.  I really fear checklists changing a relaxed talk into a bureaucratic performance review.  Troop committees are not corporate human resources.  It's a similar argument against MB workbook.   As I believe the best MB counseling occurs sitting on the grass leaning against a tree, the best POR review happens with the SM at camp during sunset as part of a friendly relaxed chat.  Not only do you NOT need a checklist.  Checklists damage the experience.

Edited by fred johnson, 14 November 2017 - 11:02 AM.

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#33 NJCubScouter

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:07 AM

I agree with many of the posts that the formal monthly evaluation and scorecards are unnecessary, that it should be the SPL dealing with the other POR-holders, and the SM deals with the SPL.  I also think that if the SM notices that the holder of a POR is basically doing nothing, and the SPL does not seem to be succeeding in motivating/mentoring the Scout, the SM can talk to the Scout directly.  I realize that may be heresy with some here, but the fact is that the SM can have a conference with any Scout at any time, and a Scout who is not adequately performing his POR is reason enough for a conference, in my opinion.

 

I also agree with MattR that some of the responses here have been a bit harsh.


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#34 AltadenaCraig

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:28 PM

I'm more sympathetic to mentorship.

 

I agree we should avoid "checklists" and "policies", etc., which in my experience result in tying my hands as Scoutmaster more than they compel performance in a POR.  On the other hand I do see value in the mentor idea in order to "set a scout up for success" when refocusing or starting a troop anew.  At the risk of taking some quotes on this thread out of context, here are a couple of examples:

 

...

A Committee has three major roles and one minor role:

...

Major 2:  Provide logistical, financial and administrative support to the Troop.

...

 

In providing logistical and administrative support, a fully staffed Troop Committee typically has an Equipment Coordinator and a Chaplain.  Isn't it reasonable to expect these adults to have some interaction - mentor, if you will - the scout Quartermaster and Chaplain's Aide?

 

The committee is responsible for the SM guiding the program toward the vision and goals.... I have no problem with them asking questions or suggesting ideas ...

As for who mentors who, it really depends on how much the program is using the patrol method and the maturity of the youth leaders. 11 and 12 year old PLs need a lot more mentoring than 15 year olds. Who does that mentoring depends on the maturity of the older Scouts.
..
Mentoring is important to our program, but the goal is for most of the mentoring to be done by Scouts.
...
So, to answer the OP, I would suggest the mentors should approach their role as mentoring future mentors. Not leaders.

 

I agree in a fully operational troop the prior holders of POR's would guide and mentor the incumbents.  But for those troops just starting out, or for established units undergoing a major shift (I can't imagine how a major equipment purchase, e.g., wouldn't require coordination between the adult Equipment Coordinator and the scout Quartermaster) I think temporary mentorship is a worthwhile idea.  With a little creativity, I would expect other adult and scout roles could be lined up as well.  Not for evaluation, simply for guidance.

 

Respectfully -

Craig


Edited by AltadenaCraig, 14 November 2017 - 12:29 PM.

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And miles to go before I sleep.

 

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#35 NJCubScouter

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:53 PM

In providing logistical and administrative support, a fully staffed Troop Committee typically has an Equipment Coordinator and a Chaplain.  Isn't it reasonable to expect these adults to have some interaction - mentor, if you will - the scout Quartermaster and Chaplain's Aide?

 

Not only is it reasonable, but the Troop Committee Guidebook specifically says that those two committee members are supposed to work with (or "guide" - they use different words for each position but I think they mainly mean the same thing) the Scouts in those POR's - AND the Advancement Coordinator is supposed to work with both the troop Scribe and troop Librarian, and the Treasurer is supposed to "train and supervise" the troop Scribe in record-keeping.  See http://www.magnifice...eeGuidebook.pdf, Chapter 4.  (That is not an official site but the books looks authentic to me.)


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#36 Eagledad

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:15 PM

 

I agree in a fully operational troop the prior holders of POR's would guide and mentor the incumbents.  But for those troops just starting out, or for established units undergoing a major shift (I can't imagine how a major equipment purchase, e.g., wouldn't require coordination between the adult Equipment Coordinator and the scout Quartermaster) I think temporary mentorship is a worthwhile idea.  With a little creativity, I would expect other adult and scout roles could be lined up as well.  Not for evaluation, simply for guidance.

 

Respectfully -

Craig

Absolutely!

 

I grow tired of the rigid idealism that seems to hold these forum discussions hostage from outside-the-box ideas and suggestions. Troops in the real world have the freedom to use life experiences and creativity for dealing with the unusual and unexpected situations that challenge their program. It's one thing to use general principle as a compass for direction. It's something different to be held to the inflexible rails of idealistic theory.

 

The direction I give to new scout leaders of new troops is very different from the direction given for mature experienced programs, and between.

 

Barry


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