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"Boy lead" Programs - Presentations?


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#1 kckirwan

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:10 AM

All,

I hope this is the correct forum, as I interpret Boy-lead as a result of an effective patrol method implementation.

 

I really want to come up with a presentation to explain what a "boy-lead" program should look like and the purpose for doing so.

 

Our troop has some new parents and some of those "hands-on" parents that always seem to "help out" with camping trips.

 

My question to the group is:

Are there any presentations (like from BSA, etc) that have already been devised? 

 

I don't mind putting together something, but don't want to re-invent the wheel if it's already out there.

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance,

 

YiS,

 

Kevin Kirwan

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#2 Stosh

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:25 AM

Welcome to the forum!

 

Go back to the Green Bar Bill materials from the 40's and 50's if one wishes to have an idea of what the Patrol Method is all about.  Today's BSA has very little, if anything, of use on that program.  

 

If you do come up with something on your own, share it on this forum, it is much needed.  Just because we put a PL patch on a boy's uniform does not make the program boy-led.


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#3 DuctTape

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:43 AM

The BSA used to have filmstrips as part of its training materials. I wonder if any of those are still available to be used as a source to create a skit or presentation.
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#4 qwazse

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:44 AM

There are some articles on Scouting, but most of them are by way of example .. not really setting ground rules.

 

I found the quotes here to be really useful http://inquiry.net/patrol/index.htm

 

Plus one of my own: "As an adult in a youth-lead movement, I've eaten plenty of burnt grilled cheese. Now it's your turn. You'll be fine."

 

I think with modern scouting, I lean on the Aims and Methods. Especially Leadership Development, and Adult Association to give parents a vision of what we're after. You have to start simply ... Leaders develop while leading ... Boys associate with adults who they know won't take the reigns from them.

 

P.S. - I'm not a fan of Power Point. So, a page of brief notes for a one hour parent meeting (preferably when they are camping with you and most likely to be intrusive on the boys) is my style.


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#5 blw2

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:59 AM

I would point you to look around over at scoutmastercg.com, rather than the bsa.  i get the idea that the bsa has really drifted away form the fundamentals of the patrol method.

He has tons of great info over there, info graphics, podcasts, and blog write-ups that address this topic.


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#6 Stosh

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 11:30 AM

There are some articles on Scouting, but most of them are by way of example .. not really setting ground rules.

 

I found the quotes here to be really useful http://inquiry.net/patrol/index.htm

 

Plus one of my own: "As an adult in a youth-lead movement, I've eaten plenty of burnt grilled cheese. Now it's your turn. You'll be fine."

 

I think with modern scouting, I lean on the Aims and Methods. Especially Leadership Development, and Adult Association to give parents a vision of what we're after. You have to start simply ... Leaders develop while leading ... Boys associate with adults who they know won't take the reigns from them.

 

P.S. - I'm not a fan of Power Point. So, a page of brief notes for a one hour parent meeting (preferably when they are camping with you and most likely to be intrusive on the boys) is my style.

 

I have found out over the years that cheese sandwiches are a bit more healthy than cheese sandwiches fried/burnt in butter.  Most nutritionists will agree.  :) 


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#7 fred johnson

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 12:16 PM

Over the years, I've grown to detest the "boy led" phrase.  It's just too overused with too little agreement on what it means.  It's often used to malign another unit or another person's efforts while trying to avoid specifics.  Too often it's just used to claim the high ground in an argument  

 

IMHO, you can tell parents your troop is boy led.  But then be specific as to what you would do. 


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#8 Col. Flagg

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 12:30 PM

Over the years, I've grown to detest the "boy led" phrase.  It's just too overused with too little agreement on what it means.  It's often used to malign another unit or another person's efforts while trying to avoid specifics.  Too often it's just used to claim the high ground in an argument  

 

IMHO, you can tell parents your troop is boy led.  But then be specific as to what you would do. 

 

I think if you define how you use the patrol method, as well as outline how the boys run the unit, the extent of "boy led" becomes evident.


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#9 qwazse

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 12:42 PM

Over the years, I've grown to detest the "boy led" phrase.  It's just too overused with too little agreement on what it means.  It's often used to malign another unit or another person's efforts while trying to avoid specifics.  Too often it's just used to claim the high ground in an argument  

 

IMHO, you can tell parents your troop is boy led.  But then be specific as to what you would do. 

I would like to +20 Fred. Although I do agree that this is youth-led movement, that doesn't create a unified vision. I want parents in a troop to come away with the patrol method.

 

Maintaining that with a diverse group of boys whose other activities invade those evening and weekend slots is the real challenge. So, I want parents to think of ways they can support a patrol (e.g. property to camp on, a favorite trail-head they can car-pool the boys to, a shop where they can work on their Klondike sleds, a business of theirs that could provide raw materials, etc ...) while staying outside of the patrol.

 

I often use the phrase "pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping together with your mates." But, that's usually to try and correct the vision of folks who want to invest extremely in big-ticket scouting (e.g. Jambo's, High Adventure Bases, etc ...), and boys who are so advancement-obsessed that they don't have a good gauge on when they've "arrived" as a scout. Cross-over parents might agree with that vision, but don't have a clue of how to get out of the way just enough to make it happen.


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#10 MattR

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 12:45 PM

In a way it's all out there but you have to know what you're looking for. So, no, it doesn't exist and is needed. A wiki would be good.

 

I think a lot of parents confuse methods with aims. The aim is not advancement. Learning how to make decisions requires a) the scouts make decisions and b) the parents, wait for it, not making decisions. Hence, burnt sandwiches are okay. However, that's not to say there's nothing for adults to do. Scouts need help learning how to make decisions, how to solve problems, how to fix things they've messed up, how to listen. None of that happens by telling them what to do.

 

Clearly delineating what the scouts and adults are responsible for would help.

 

I like qwasze's idea of a one hour parent meeting with nothing but some notes and maybe a one page synopsis to hand out. Some stories might help to explain things but you want them engaged. If you can get all the parents on the same page it will make things much easier.


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#11 ValleyBoy

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 12:54 PM

There are a number of videos on youtube that come up under searching "Patrol Method"


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#12 Eagledad

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 01:12 PM

 

I like qwasze's idea of a one hour parent meeting with nothing but some notes and maybe a one page synopsis to hand out. Some stories might help to explain things but you want them engaged. If you can get all the parents on the same page it will make things much easier.

I did exactly this after every SPL election. We added a few bits of information like summer camp dates or something, but most of the meeting was as you descried with a one page handout. All parents were required to attend. But after a couple years of these parents meetings, I think some parents....forgot about them. :D

 

In my opinion, they couldn't explain Aim, Methods, or boy run, if I were to ask them later. But I think the meeting gave them the trust that we had goals for their sons and a plan or process for reaching those goals.

 

Barry


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#13 kckirwan

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 01:30 PM

WOW!!!!  You guys are awesome!!

A bunch of information to digest. 

Thanks for all of your advice.....

 

 

This is part of one of my Wood Badge ticket items. 

If I end up with something "shareable", I will definitely share with the group.

 

YiS,

Kevin


Edited by kckirwan, 07 November 2017 - 01:31 PM.

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#14 qwazse

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 01:40 PM

By way of fair attribution:

... I like qwasze's idea of a one hour parent meeting with nothing but some notes and maybe a one page synopsis to hand out. Some stories might help to explain things but you want them engaged. If you can get all the parents on the same page it will make things much easier.

Although my style, this was not my idea. The adults who came before me in the troop did this. In particular, one former SM who came to camp for National Inspection and the food (no joke!) led this discussion day 1 of summer camp.


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#15 Stosh

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 02:28 PM

I have always viewed "boy-led" has creating opportunities for boys, not taking them away.

 

Sometimes these opportunities are opportunities to learn, sometimes lead.  I am involved in the learning.  I teach, but I will not do it for them because that cheats them out of an opportunity to lead.

 

I just went through a discussion about 6 months ago when the boys were learning their knots.  I showed them how to tie them, then let them have at it to learn.  I did give out the caveat that there will come a time when we get to camp, it's going to be dark, it's going to be raining, and the quicker you can do the knots the quicker you can get the tents up and your gear kept dry.  No one believed me at the time.  Well about a month ago, BINGO, it was late, it was dark and it wasn't just raining, it was pouring.  Everyone was soaked and the weekend hadn't started.  They struggled, they cried, they helped each other and finally one boy came to me and said, is this the lesson on knots?  Yep.  Well last Sunday evening we were doing training on First Aid and the boys were goofing off.  I told them there's going to be a time when you will really need to know this or someone you care about is going to suffer or even die.  The PL asked, "when that time comes will it be dark and raining?"  I told him if it isn't you're going to feel that way anyway.  They paid attention and worked seriously for the next hour on the training processes.

 

One of the major hurdles in teaching leadership is to give full authority to the boys.  This is not something many adults are willing to do.  Failure is not an acceptable outcome in our society.  Yet, in the BSA program, it is supposed to be a time where failure is one of the necessary stepping stones to leadership.  For those who are too afraid to fail, they will never become even mediocre leaders.  

 

In order to be boy-led, one needs boy leaders first. 


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#16 blw2

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 10:21 AM

I would like to +20 Fred. Although I do agree that this is youth-led movement, that doesn't create a unified vision. I want parents in a troop to come away with the patrol method......

 

Agreed.

A long time ago, I started a thread about "one program".  What I was trying to get at was this "unified vision".  In my thinking, boy lead patrol method really isn't all that hard of a concept....IF one spends just a bit of time to research the idea, do a bit of reading, and reflect on what was originally laid out.  The problem I suppose is that there is no unified level as to how much reading, reflecting, and understanding one needs to form an opinion.

It really is a very basic concept, but I'd venture to guess that there really aren't two troops that operated exactly the same.


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#17 Eagledad

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 11:46 AM

Agreed.

A long time ago, I started a thread about "one program".  What I was trying to get at was this "unified vision".  In my thinking, boy lead patrol method really isn't all that hard of a concept....IF one spends just a bit of time to research the idea, do a bit of reading, and reflect on what was originally laid out.  The problem I suppose is that there is no unified level as to how much reading, reflecting, and understanding one needs to form an opinion.

It really is a very basic concept, but I'd venture to guess that there really aren't two troops that operated exactly the same.

Yes, that is the struggle. The Camporee discussion highlighted to me how much different my patrol method experience was in the 70s compared to the scouting program the BSA is pushing today. Same age patrols alone have made a huge shift in how adults perceive the process of patrol method. Patrol method, boy run and scout led, weren't common terms when I was a scout because patrol method was the normal way of scouting in most troops. It's just how it was done.

 

Part of having a successful patrol method program is giving the scouts enough independence that they feel motived to change some of their habits of how they make decisions. But most adults who were kids back then will agree that our parents gave us a lot more trust and independence than the culture of parents allow today. Helicopter parents today are the norm. Adult leaders in the 70s didn't struggle to let scouts make wrong decisions like parents today. So, as a result, boy run is defined in each troop more by the limitations of the adults' fear to let boys make decisions.

 

From Nationals perspective, scout independence is directly related to the cost of liability. So, they aren't all the motivated to push patrol method very far. IMHO, restricting patrols from camping without adults was a liability cost decision. The process of a true patrol method program is difficult for adults today because they really don't want the stress of worry that comes from not controlling the actions of youth. We have become a culture of Helicopter Scout Leaders and we aren't really sure we want to change.

 

Barry


Edited by Eagledad, 08 November 2017 - 11:46 AM.

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#18 Tampa Turtle

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 12:28 PM

I always use "Boy Led mixed-age Patrol Method". I typically do the new parent briefing.


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#19 MattR

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 05:07 PM

Part of having a successful patrol method program is giving the scouts enough independence that they feel motived to change some of their habits of how they make decisions. But most adults who were kids back then will agree that our parents gave us a lot more trust and independence than the culture of parents allow today. Helicopter parents today are the norm. Adult leaders in the 70s didn't struggle to let scouts make wrong decisions like parents today. So, as a result, boy run is defined in each troop more by the limitations of the adults' fear to let boys make decisions.
 

This is more than just the parents at fault at the scout events. The same people that are helicopters have not let their children make any decisions their entire life. Teaching them how is really hard. A road map for that would really help. To be honest, waiting until they're 13 seems to be too late. It is so ingrained that the oldest person around, whether adult or SPL or PL, makes all the decisions that just saying let the scouts do it isn't enough to get them to do it. So the new scouts still don't make significant decisions until they're 13 and suddenly PL, at which point they're completely new at it and struggle.

 

As much people don't like the NSP idea I've found a use for it. Namely teaching the younger scouts to make decisions. Hopefully they'll get it and next year I can mix them with the next new group of scouts. By the time these scouts are 13 and ready to be PLs mixing the scouts together will work and the NSP will be less needed in the future.


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#20 Stosh

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 07:18 PM

This is more than just the parents at fault at the scout events. The same people that are helicopters have not let their children make any decisions their entire life. Teaching them how is really hard. A road map for that would really help. To be honest, waiting until they're 13 seems to be too late. It is so ingrained that the oldest person around, whether adult or SPL or PL, makes all the decisions that just saying let the scouts do it isn't enough to get them to do it. So the new scouts still don't make significant decisions until they're 13 and suddenly PL, at which point they're completely new at it and struggle.

 

As much people don't like the NSP idea I've found a use for it. Namely teaching the younger scouts to make decisions. Hopefully they'll get it and next year I can mix them with the next new group of scouts. By the time these scouts are 13 and ready to be PLs mixing the scouts together will work and the NSP will be less needed in the future.

 

As much as the NSP isn't liked, often times it isn't used much, but you have touched on one of the key assets for having one.  This leadership/decision making doesn't need to wait until they are 13, FC, and well into scouting.  With NSP, it starts immediately.  Although it's somewhat of a misnomer, the NSP only means that the TG and maybe an ASM keep an eye on things a bit more than if they were a regular patrol.  The caveat comes when they "break up" the guys into regular patrols rather than just renaming them a regular patrol.  They have struggled and bonded during that first year and unless there are major personality conflicts, they really want to stay together.  As one who stays out of patrol selection matters, often times maybe one or two will bail to another regular patrol, but I find friendship holds the group together.  If the patrol is small, often times they will merge into one of the younger regular patrols where the age difference might only be a year or two.  If that doesn't work, they take on the next year's NSP into their patrol to increase numbers to the magic 6-8 boys.

 

That first year is critical for the opportunity to learn to fail and come up smiling.  The burnt grilled cheese seems to be the traditional indicator in most cases.  Pancakes comes in a close second.  And nothing trumps failure like burnt bacon!  But they learn, that by the time they get to 13, they are seasoned scouts, with FC skills.  I prefer that over delaying the pain until they are 13 and in two years of struggle, they leave at 15.  And of course, if the older boys are the ones making all the decisions in the patrol, what chance does the new guy get to get his hands dirty?

 

Just my opinion, worth about 2-cents.


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