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Integration and Ceremonies

c-team gender integration ordeal brotherhood

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#1 John-in-KC

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:02 AM

From my view of the camp,

 

It seems to me the Order will be somewhat easy to gender integrate. 

 

The biggest issue will be the attire of youth on Ceremonies Teams and supporting ceremonies as runners and such.  With young women, with gender equality, if they have to close their chests in with clothing, so will the young men. 

 

Your alls' thoughts?

 

ICS.


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#2 krikkitbot

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:13 AM

All of our ceremonialists wear shirts. I don't see a problem.

 

Also, per national, they all must wear pants under breech cloths. I heard something about an blanket incident at NOAC in the 80's that prompted that change. :laugh:


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#3 NJCubScouter

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:31 AM

All of our ceremonialists wear shirts. I don't see a problem.


Not that I have much connection with OA these days anyway, but I think that's probably the answer, assuming that the Native American theme is to be retained anyway (which is a separate issue from admitting girls.)
 

Also, per national, they all must wear pants under breech cloths. I heard something about an blanket incident at NOAC in the 80's that prompted that change. :laugh:

In 21st-century-speak I guess that would be called a "wardrobe malfunction."
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#4 qwazse

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:52 AM

Modest dress is not a big issue around here. Most traditional dress is long-sleeved.

I suppose each lodge should take the lead from NA dance teams, which tend to be mixed.

 

Many of the local tribes around here are matriarchal, and often host girl scouts and boy scouts to visit their pow-wows.

So this is likely to be quite interesting if there is an infusion co-ed youth learning native culture together.


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#5 WAKWIB

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 01:59 AM

Currently in our Lodge, the 4 principles are fully attired including a ribbon shirt.  We have other Arrowmen at ceremony that tend fires, beat the drum, escort inductees, etc. They are in some type of regalia. I've seen some shirtless, but that would be an easy fix.

All inductees, for Ordeal and Brotherhood, appear in Class A for ceremony.

So...really, not a big deal. Just make sure the relatively few guys serving a ceremonial role are not topless, and all is well.


Edited by WAKWIB, 26 October 2017 - 01:59 AM.

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#6 JosephMD

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 08:10 AM

All of our ceremonialists wear shirts. I don't see a problem.

 

Also, per national, they all must wear pants under breech cloths. I heard something about an blanket incident at NOAC in the 80's that prompted that change. :laugh:

 

That was a rule in the 80's?  Wow.  I feel like 90% of the things I did in my late 80's / 90's era scouting were against the rules.


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#7 Back Pack

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 09:50 AM

Our team has traditional clothing and half don’t cover well enough to avoid exposing what girls don’t want exposed. I know the guys on our old team wouldn’t change. They’d quit before that.
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#8 JosephMD

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 10:30 AM

From my view of the camp,

 

It seems to me the Order will be somewhat easy to gender integrate. 

 

The biggest issue will be the attire of youth on Ceremonies Teams and supporting ceremonies as runners and such.  With young women, with gender equality, if they have to close their chests in with clothing, so will the young men. 

 

Your alls' thoughts?

 

ICS.

 

I don't think we required boys to wear shirts at the waterfront do we?  I don't think it will be a problem.  They will wear what they like. 


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#9 walk in the woods

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 12:47 PM

Modest dress is not a big issue around here. Most traditional dress is long-sleeved.

I suppose each lodge should take the lead from NA dance teams, which tend to be mixed.

 

I'm curious what you mean by mixed.  I've only been to a few actual pow wows, but in each one the drums were entirely male.  There were women present but they didn't participate in the drumming, rather sitting in an outer circle around the drummers.  As for the dancing, the specialties were separated by gender. Male fancy dancers wearing the bustles, bells, and head gear; female dancers wearing and participating in shawl and jingle dress dances.  Is your experience different?


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#10 Tampa Turtle

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 12:55 PM

I saw a big OA production at a unnamed camp. They did wear tight white pants under their loin cloths and were bare chested with technicolor feathers. All our leaders, including the women, were rather uncomfortable with the rather homo-erotic nature of it. I much prefer our local Lodge with the attempt to dress in Seminole fashion.


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#11 perdidochas

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 01:42 PM

From my view of the camp,

 

It seems to me the Order will be somewhat easy to gender integrate. 

 

The biggest issue will be the attire of youth on Ceremonies Teams and supporting ceremonies as runners and such.  With young women, with gender equality, if they have to close their chests in with clothing, so will the young men. 

 

Your alls' thoughts?

 

ICS.

Why would the young men have to close their chests, just because the  young women do?  We currently don't require that for mixed gender swimming at scout camps.  That, my sons' lodge has the ceremonies teams with shirts on anyways.  


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#12 Oldscout448

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 05:24 AM

I did ceremonies for 5 years until I turned 21. Then coached them for another 10. The problem of regalia is a minor one in my view.

The bigger issue,assuming the Order starts allowing girls in, is how do we deal with the inevitable demands to rewrite the ceremonies to make them more "inclusive "?

It takes a huge amount of time and effort to learn to do a ceremony well. Very few are willing to invest so much and then only when they clearly see a tangible benefit. If national hands down a new set of scripts from their ivory tower saying " here you go, toss out everything you spent countless hours studying and learning just so the girls feel more 'welcomed'" I fear the reply will be short and most impolite.

The Order is by definition a brotherhood. I really don't know how many of "my" team would sadly walk away but the team dynamic would most certainly be profoundly altered.

Edited by Oldscout448, 27 October 2017 - 05:38 AM.

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#13 Back Pack

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 06:55 AM

Can’t call it a brotherhood anymore. Can’t say Arrowmen.

The concept of inducting braves into the ranks of the warriors is also gone.
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#14 WAKWIB

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 11:51 AM

Can’t call it a brotherhood anymore. Can’t say Arrowmen.

The concept of inducting braves into the ranks of the warriors is also gone.

Sounds like you are acquainted with Mic-O-Say.  I've been very involved with that for over 40 years. Suffice it to say, we have some work to do in the years ahead...


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#15 Back Pack

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Posted 27 October 2017 - 04:29 PM

Sounds like you are acquainted with Mic-O-Say.  I've been very involved with that for over 40 years. Suffice it to say, we have some work to do in the years ahead...


Stupid system gave you a neg rep instead of positive. Meant +1. :)
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#16 Oldscout448

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Posted 28 October 2017 - 06:53 AM

Can’t call it a brotherhood anymore. Can’t say Arrowmen.

The concept of inducting braves into the ranks of the warriors is also gone.

I am forced to differ with you on one point BP.  Allowat names them Arrowmen in the Brotherhood ceremony.  If it is good enough for the mighty chief, 'tis good enough for me.


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#17 qwazse

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Posted 28 October 2017 - 07:12 AM

I'm curious what you mean by mixed.  I've only been to a few actual pow wows, but in each one the drums were entirely male.  There were women present but they didn't participate in the drumming, rather sitting in an outer circle around the drummers.  As for the dancing, the specialties were separated by gender. Male fancy dancers wearing the bustles, bells, and head gear; female dancers wearing and participating in shawl and jingle dress dances.  Is your experience different?


My observation as well. There are different roles for men and women. This is why youth should be encouraged to study their local tribes. Sex roles should be honored, together.
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#18 RememberSchiff

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Posted 28 October 2017 - 07:43 AM

Stupid system gave you a neg rep instead of positive. Meant +1. :)

Wish I could fix software; you should be able to change your own vote.   :(   Anyway used my vote to help correct. 


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#19 Back Pack

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Posted 28 October 2017 - 04:29 PM

I am forced to differ with you on one point BP.  Allowat names them Arrowmen in the Brotherhood ceremony.  If it is good enough for the mighty chief, 'tis good enough for me.


I’m not saying I want the name changes. I’m betting that folks cave in and make the name changes to be more inclusive. I think the next five years is going to test even the most patient person. We watched a speech from PGB1 the other day in class. I was stunned at how valid it was to stuff going on today.

https://youtu.be/Y3IFbJQzDxo
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#20 Back Pack

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Posted 28 October 2017 - 04:31 PM

Wish I could fix software; you should be able to change your own vote.   :(   Anyway used my vote to help correct.


Thanks. I tried to change it but when I click on the rep box it only tells me who has voted. Doesn’t allow me to change it. Thanks for having my back.
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