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Resistance to OA


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#21 Col. Flagg

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 06:55 AM

I'm not in favor of waiving requirements unless it's due to disability or something. The role of OA is supposed to be an honor society of campers. There's NYLT these adults can help staff. There's high adventure trips, there's all sorts of non-summer camp opportunities for these adults to get their 5 day long-term camp. When we start making excepts to rules for folks we create problems and preferences for one group or one person and not others. If they truly want OA there's a way to make that happen but it take desire and sacrifice.
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#22 Snow Owl

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 07:01 AM

We do not encourage OA in our Troop for most of the reason already stated.

 

  1. It is a good ole boys club
  2. Pulls the top Scouts out of our unit
  3. In our council at least, very poorly run
  4. Does not allow females (we have a female Scoutmaster)
  5. Not real thrilled with the ceremonies and Native American mimicry
  6. The Ordeal looks like hazing
  7. Looks like what we tell the scouts they cannot do - secret organization, hazing, exclusion etc.

That all being said, I have seen councils where it looks very well run and very open


Edited by Snow Owl, 11 September 2017 - 07:06 AM.

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#23 fred johnson

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 12:09 PM

        5. Not real thrilled with the ceremonies and Native American mimicry

        6. The Ordeal looks like hazing

        7. Looks like what we tell the scouts they cannot do - secret organization, hazing, exclusion etc.

 

I agree with your points, very strongly.  The induction process looks very dated.  If my son didn't want to go into OA, I'd be okay with it.  Sad, but okay.


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#24 Col. Flagg

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 02:14 PM

We do not encourage OA in our Troop for most of the reason already stated.
 

  • It is a good ole boys club
  • Pulls the top Scouts out of our unit
  • In our council at least, very poorly run
  • Does not allow females (we have a female Scoutmaster)
  • Not real thrilled with the ceremonies and Native American mimicry
  • The Ordeal looks like hazing
  • Looks like what we tell the scouts they cannot do - secret organization, hazing, exclusion etc.
That all being said, I have seen councils where it looks very well run and very open

Your council doesn't allow female OA members? Ours does. Am I the only one? I thought it was national...for a while now.
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#25 deanofmac

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 02:43 PM

We do not encourage OA in our Troop for most of the reason already stated.

  1. Does not allow females (we have a female Scoutmaster)
  2. The Ordeal looks like hazing
  3. Looks like what we tell the scouts they cannot do - secret organization, hazing, exclusion etc.

That all being said, I have seen councils where it looks very well run and very open

Egads! What Council/Lodge is this? My Asst. Scoutmaster for OA is female. And an Vigil member to boot!

 

Hazing? Seriously? Be quiet and work. That's all. If it's more than that someone needs the boot. Geesh!

 

Dean


Edited by deanofmac, 11 September 2017 - 02:44 PM.

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#26 David CO

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:26 AM

We do not encourage OA in our Troop for most of the reason already stated.

 

  1. It is a good ole boys club
  2. Pulls the top Scouts out of our unit
  3. In our council at least, very poorly run
  4. Does not allow females (we have a female Scoutmaster)
  5. Not real thrilled with the ceremonies and Native American mimicry
  6. The Ordeal looks like hazing
  7. Looks like what we tell the scouts they cannot do - secret organization, hazing, exclusion etc.

That all being said, I have seen councils where it looks very well run and very open

 

I don't understand why Snow Owl was given a negative 1 for his reply.  The OP specifically asked to hear from scout leaders who don't support OA.


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#27 RememberSchiff

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 06:44 AM

Perhaps @Cleveland Rocks will explain with his first post in this topic.


Edited by RememberSchiff, 12 September 2017 - 12:10 PM.

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#28 Col. Flagg

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 06:50 AM

I don't understand why Snow Owl was given a negative 1 for his reply.  The OP specifically asked to hear from scout leaders who don't support OA.


Balanced with +1. All is back to order.
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#29 krikkitbot

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 08:55 AM

We do not encourage OA in our Troop for most of the reason already stated.

 

  1. It is a good ole boys club
  2. Pulls the top Scouts out of our unit
  3. In our council at least, very poorly run
  4. Does not allow females (we have a female Scoutmaster)
  5. Not real thrilled with the ceremonies and Native American mimicry
  6. The Ordeal looks like hazing
  7. Looks like what we tell the scouts they cannot do - secret organization, hazing, exclusion etc.

That all being said, I have seen councils where it looks very well run and very open

 

  1. Isn't everything? The roundtable crowd isn't the same as the OA crowd, which isn't the same as the WB/NYLT crowd, etc. However, if you put effort into getting to know the people in each group, you will be welcomed. Believe me, every part of the program wants more volunteers.
  2. I've had employers who didn't want to promote their best employees or recommend them for other positions because their team would suffer. It was a disservice to the individual. I think it's the same with scouts. If there is a scout who is a great leader, why hold him back for your own benefit?
  3. It's truly boy lead. Sometimes the leadership group is great and put up great events. Other times, they flounder. Sometimes they need better advisors.
  4. My wife is brotherhood. Several of my son's best advisers are female. There are lots of women who hold the vigil honor. Now, if you are talking about venturers, you are correct. I wish they would open the program to venturing girls but maybe the "New Family Scouting" will fix that.
  5. I agree to a point but I don't have any alternatives that I think would capture kids' imagination.
  6. As has been said before, doing things like trail building or camp maintenance in silence hardly qualifies as hazing. The small amounts of food are still nourishing and there is a feast after. Maybe things were different in the past but so was scouting. 
  7. It's not a secret. Parents are welcome to observe. The ceremonies should not be shared to preserve the awe for the candidates but if you have concerns, you can talk to the adviser. We've discussed the hazing. The exclusion... well, anyone can get in if they put in the effort. I have seen scouts who were not elected (rightfully, in my opinion) change their attitude and work extra hard to make sure they got elected the next year. 

 

I hope I didn't come across as snarky. I was trying to respond point for point. 


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#30 ParkMan

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:57 AM

 

  1. Isn't everything? The roundtable crowd isn't the same as the OA crowd, which isn't the same as the WB/NYLT crowd, etc. However, if you put effort into getting to know the people in each group, you will be welcomed. Believe me, every part of the program wants more volunteers.
  2. I've had employers who didn't want to promote their best employees or recommend them for other positions because their team would suffer. It was a disservice to the individual. I think it's the same with scouts. If there is a scout who is a great leader, why hold him back for your own benefit?
  3. It's truly boy lead. Sometimes the leadership group is great and put up great events. Other times, they flounder. Sometimes they need better advisors.
  4. My wife is brotherhood. Several of my son's best advisers are female. There are lots of women who hold the vigil honor. Now, if you are talking about venturers, you are correct. I wish they would open the program to venturing girls but maybe the "New Family Scouting" will fix that.
  5. I agree to a point but I don't have any alternatives that I think would capture kids' imagination.
  6. As has been said before, doing things like trail building or camp maintenance in silence hardly qualifies as hazing. The small amounts of food are still nourishing and there is a feast after. Maybe things were different in the past but so was scouting. 
  7. It's not a secret. Parents are welcome to observe. The ceremonies should not be shared to preserve the awe for the candidates but if you have concerns, you can talk to the adviser. We've discussed the hazing. The exclusion... well, anyone can get in if they put in the effort. I have seen scouts who were not elected (rightfully, in my opinion) change their attitude and work extra hard to make sure they got elected the next year. 

 

I hope I didn't come across as snarky. I was trying to respond point for point. 

 

 

 

Well said.  My experience has been similar to this.

 

The OA in my area is far from perfect - but it does function and provides scouts a different area of Scouting to explore.  Some like it, some don't.


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#31 Cleveland Rocks

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 06:29 AM

Perhaps @Cleveland Rocks will explain with his first post in this topic.

 

???  I haven't posted any replies on this topic, at least until now.


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#32 RememberSchiff

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 06:46 AM

???  I haven't posted any replies on this topic, at least until now.

In this topic thread "Resistance to OA", you have not. You just gave a thumbs down to a Snow Owl's detailed, considered reply to the OP.

 

So care to elaborate?


Edited by RememberSchiff, 13 September 2017 - 06:49 AM.

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#33 Eagledad

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:50 AM

My struggles with adult leaders in the last few years are that they are guided by ignorance more than the facts and this is just one example. OA is an honor organization that at it's heart is about serving and service. How scary can such an honor be? Arrowmen when I was a scout were super scouts. The best of the best, and they were the epitome of servant leaders.

 

Who knows where Snow Owl imagined the misinformation about, but the scouts suffer the most because not only does Snow Owl not approve of OA, they are restricted from even considering the organization. 

 

I am not surprised that fear of pulling the scouts away from unit activities is Snow Owl's major concern. I have seen a lot of events lately that have convinced me that we live in an age of helicopter parenting. I had a discussion the other day with a scout leader who believe that the majority of scouters today are more of the helicoptering type of adult leaders. So it's not just scouting that is changing from this generation of parents, it's helicopter scout leading, helicopter coaching, and helicopter teaching.

 

Scouting is an outward activities program that forces scouts to make independent decisions and that kind of program is being pushed out of the culture. Kids today live in a bubble created by adult fears and that bubble is getting smaller. I recently read and article that was explaining how the combination of technology (personal cell phone media) and our over the top fears for our children have led to the anti-free speech movement that some of the college campuses are experiencing. Kids today find restricting free speech easier than dealing with the challenges of free thought that comes from free speech. What are these kids calling themselves, "snowflakes"? Sounds about right.

 

This reminds me of a local a group of boys who created a sand lot baseball team that have been in the news lately. You may have even seen them on Good Morning America. Can you believe it, a bunch of boys in the neighborhood get together weekly to play baseball, and it becomes national news. Well these boys have become popular enough that adults are coming to watch. But they are held by the rules of no cheering, no coaching and pretty much stay out of the way of the boys (I don't remember adults at any of my sand lot sports). You would not believe the uproar from some of the local adults that these boys are playing without any adult supervision. Helicopter baseball fans? Sad.

 

You think that is over the top? Go read Snow Owls post again. Snow Owl is not alone. Snow Owls imaginative fears may even be typical.

 

It's been trending this way for a few years now, but discussions like this throw cold water in my face that snowflakes are the future adult leaders of the BSA. Some folks think it's unfair that I view the future of BSA as an after school program. But after school programs were created to keep kids safe and out of trouble until the parents got home. Everything I see is that an afterschool scout program to keep their kids out of trouble is exactly what todays parents want.Well, that is what Badon Powell was trying to do as well. Still, Badon Powell was no Snowflake.

 

Thank goodness that my family of men, from my dad thru his grandsons, were scouts when scouting was about developing boys into men. 

 

Barry


Edited by Eagledad, 13 September 2017 - 08:51 AM.

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#34 RememberSchiff

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:54 AM

Scouts could have done without the "snowflakes" insult, but if  your local OA lodge is not fulfilling its mission of service ( and Snow Owl observed other lodges do) why encourage membership? 

 

If from my experience a MBC or a scout camp was not fulfilling the BSA stated standard, I would not encourage either.  Same with teachers, schools, youth programs, ...


Edited by RememberSchiff, 13 September 2017 - 09:54 AM.

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#35 CNYScouter

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:09 AM

Back when I was a Commissioner(5+ years ago) it seemed that the units that were resistant to OA were also the same units that didn't send anyone to NYLT or Jambo or Woodbadge and the same units didn't like the Venturing program.
Most had the fear that these pulled Scouts/Leaders away from their unit.

This was most likely true as these units had a weak program and these other programs were offering a activities and challenges that were not getting in their units

I also noticed that the stronger units were the ones where they had members fully involved in all of these.


Edited by RememberSchiff, 13 September 2017 - 11:54 AM.
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#36 fred johnson

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:15 AM

Hazing? Seriously? Be quiet and work. That's all. If it's more than that someone needs the boot. Geesh!

 

Also, limiting food ... being told where to sleep (walked to an unknown place, without tent, with only what they could carry, etc) ... roping them together ... standing in formation multiple times ... limited information on what's happening ... etc.  

 

It was a meaningful and special experience to me.  Not everyone will be glad they were put through it.  But it is pretty much the exact definition of hazing.  Especially as you can't become a member without going through the "ordeal".  Sort of breaks the "friendly" promise of scouting.


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#37 krikkitbot

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:34 AM

Also, limiting food ... being told where to sleep (walked to an unknown place, without tent, with only what they could carry, etc) ... roping them together ... standing in formation multiple times ... limited information on what's happening ... etc.  

 

It was a meaningful and special experience to me.  Not everyone will be glad they were put through it.  But it is pretty much the exact definition of hazing.  Especially as you can't become a member without going through the "ordeal".  Sort of breaks the "friendly" promise of scouting.

 

They are no longer tied together. Everything else, you just kinda described the Wilderness Survival merit badge. I guess we should drop that badge. 

 

I don't know what you mean by standing in formation multiple times. Do you mean walking somewhere single file? That's hazing? 

 

Just wait until they see the paddles!

 

I'm kidding! There are no paddles. :)


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#38 Eagledad

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:43 AM

 

It was a meaningful and special experience to me.  Not everyone will be glad they were put through it.  But it is pretty much the exact definition of hazing.  Especially as you can't become a member without going through the "ordeal".  Sort of breaks the "friendly" promise of scouting.

My complaint about OA today is that it allows members who are too immature to understand the distinction and priviledge of the organization. Friendly? Is that like the friendly the atmosphere of taking a test in school, CPA or Law Degree.  Practicing the discipline of self control may not have a lot of jokes or laughs, but I certainly wouldn't describe ordeals as unfriendly. In it's day the honor required the maturity  for understand the nobility of service and taking on the role with full enthusiasm. In the day, every scout that participated in the ordeal not only wanted to be there, they felt very honored. I beleive that comes under friendly.

 

To bad hazing has lost it's general definition. It wasn't very long ago that Council was suggesting that scout units not recognize scout's birthdays because the act of standing in front of a group while singing happy birthday could be interpreted as hazing to some scouts. And of course there was the silly holding a cub scout up-side-down to award the Bob Cat. The boys begged for the ceremony. 

 

Sigh, sign of the times.

 

Barry


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#39 HelpfulTracks

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 02:19 PM

We do not encourage OA in our Troop for most of the reason already stated.

 

  1. It is a good ole boys club
  2. Pulls the top Scouts out of our unit
  3. In our council at least, very poorly run
  4. Does not allow females (we have a female Scoutmaster)
  5. Not real thrilled with the ceremonies and Native American mimicry
  6. The Ordeal looks like hazing
  7. Looks like what we tell the scouts they cannot do - secret organization, hazing, exclusion etc.

That all being said, I have seen councils where it looks very well run and very open

 

How does the concept to "not encourage OA" manifest itself?

 

Does that mean:

  • Your Troop does not hold elections or request election teams?
  • Your Troop holds elections and attends Ordeal, but once they are over, the troop discourages discussion of OA in the troop?
  • Is it an active campaign against OA? (i.e. The OA is a bad organization?)
  • Does the Troop participate in events at Camporee or Jamboree that are hosted by OA?
  • If you do not hold elections, what happens when a Scout wishes to join?

I am not being snarky, I just don't truly know how a troop can take a passive stance toward OA in a boy led troop.

 

To your points:

  1. It is a good ole boys club  - If that is true, then have a discussion with the Council Scout Executive, he is the Supreme Chief of the Fire, if your Lodge is not acting as it should, he can and almost certainly will, address the issue. OA servers too important a function for a Council to let it wither on the vine because of poor behavior
  2. Pulls the top Scouts out of our unit - if utilized by the Lodge AND the UNIT, the OA will give far more back than it takes from a unit. An Arrowman's first obligation is to his troop. Most Lodges will gladly provide all types of service to the unit if asked. Not to mention Leadership training, skills training and keeping older scouts involved in Scouting past when they may have normally moved on.
  3. In our council at least, very poorly run - Fair enough, some are poorly run, the best way to fix that is to become involved, get trained and help fix the problems. OA is boy led just like troops, sometimes things run well, other times not so much. The Scouts are learning and need good mentors to help them.
  4. Does not allow females (we have a female Scoutmaster) - OA absolutely DOES allow female adult Boy Scout Leaders as members. Only two types of units currently have youth members, Boy Scouts and Varsity, neither have female youth. If your Lodge is restricting adult females, then they are not following OA policy.
  5. Not real thrilled with the ceremonies and Native American mimicry - this is a debate that will rage on both Pro and Con. I have seen members of various tribal nations on both sides of the argument. Personally, in recent years at least, I have not seen a display that was intentionally disrespectful. A small portion of my heritage is Cherokee and Chickasaw, I will occasionally cringe at certain things I see, but I would rather help them learn about what they were mistaken about than restrict them. Events like Wachipi (recently at Philmont) are held to educate Arrowmen about Native American culture and how to maintain OA traditions and to be respectful.
  6. The Ordeal looks like hazing - The work is reasonably difficult, but not more than they can handle, and certainly nothing more than they would do during regular OA service as a member. Food is scan, but more than enough to meet dietary needs. Frankly, Ordeal taste pretty good too. Silence during ordeal portion, I cant see how that is hazing, in fact Elangomats go through every bit of Ordeal with the candidates, some Elangomats serve multiple times. All members go silent when candidates are in the area. Nothing abut Ordeal is meant to embarass, harass, belittle or abuse.
  7. Looks like what we tell the scouts they cannot do - secret organization, hazing, exclusion etc. - Nothing is secret, parents can and do attend Ordeal, see hazing above, and OA could not be exclusionary if it wanted, primarily non-OA members are the ones that elect members to OA.

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#40 deanofmac

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 02:21 PM

I consider anything less than what I went through in Marine Corps Boot Camp as non-hazing. The Ordeal wasn't that bad, even with the scant food and formations, etc. I enjoyed my time as did most, if not all, of the scouts who were with me. We even had adults with CPAPs. If the work was too physically demanding for you they had the option of assigning you sit-on-your-arse work.

 

Scant food, maybe. In volume, yes. In calories, no. Although after the "feast" I did stop at McDonald's and get dinner.  :) The feast was nothing more than a snack.

 

And we wonder why they are so "snowflaky"...


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Dean Roberts

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I used to be an Owl, C3-133-11
..and a Staffer too! C3-133-14 and C3-133-16





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