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#21 Stosh

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 03:48 PM

Actually, the way you have described it in the past, not only are there no "term limits" in your troop, there are no terms, either.  They are two different things.  A term would be six months or a year or whatever, and term limits would be that you can only serve two, or three, or whatever, of those terms.  You cannot have term limits without terms, but you can have terms without term limits (as my troop does.)  I suspect that there are many troops without term limits, but relatively few without terms.  The way you do it, the boys choose someone and he serves until the boys choose someone else, but there is no set procedure for how they decide when it is time to choose someone else.  Right?

If there are no term limits it also means there are no number of terms to consider.  A lazy scout's term in office might be a week or two and a go-getter scout's term might end when he turns 18.  Either way, it's one term.  There's no selection/election process defined.  No schedule of elections on a periodic basis either.  The 6 month, 12 month stuff is made up by the adults, not the BSA.  Also who can and who can't be considered for office isn't a BSA policy either.  I just don't play the game and if something goes wrong, I don't get caught holding the bag.  If there's a problem, it's up to the boys to work it out.  PL, "For the next 3 months I will be busy with basketball in school.  Joey, the APL will be standing in for me, his phone number is: (000)-000-0000.  I'll try to make the meetings, but he will still be the acting PL during this time."    Of course PL Johnny might find in his absence, Joey is doing the job 10 times better, just to find out the boys now have made Joey PL.  :)  That's life.


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#22 NJCubScouter

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 05:45 PM

If there are no term limits it also means there are no number of terms to consider.  A lazy scout's term in office might be a week or two and a go-getter scout's term might end when he turns 18.  Either way, it's one term.


It really isn't. It's not one term, it's no terms. It sounds like the Scouts huddle together and select (by unknown means) a President-for-Life, who serves either until he is 18 or until there is a coup and a new President-for-Life is chosen.
 

There's no selection/election process defined.  No schedule of elections on a periodic basis either.  The 6 month, 12 month stuff is made up by the adults, not the BSA.  Also who can and who can't be considered for office isn't a BSA policy either.

 

That isn't really correct either. BSA policy, as expressed in the Patrol Leader's Handbook, is:
 

Rank and age requirements to be a senior patrol leader are determined by each troop, as is the schedule of elections.

 

See http://www.scouting....p_Positions.pdf

So the idea of set eligibility requirements and a "schedule of elections" (which means "terms") is definitely supported by the BSA. They just leave it up to the troop to determine those things.


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#23 Stosh

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 07:22 PM

It really isn't. It's not one term, it's no terms. It sounds like the Scouts huddle together and select (by unknown means) a President-for-Life, who serves either until he is 18 or until there is a coup and a new President-for-Life is chosen.
 

Yep, that's how the boys have chosen to do it.  If they wish to do something else, they can change it any time they wish.

 

That isn't really correct either. BSA policy, as expressed in the Patrol Leader's Handbook, is:
 

 

See http://www.scouting....p_Positions.pdf

So the idea of set eligibility requirements and a "schedule of elections" (which means "terms") is definitely supported by the BSA. They just leave it up to the troop to determine those things.

 

By troop you mean the boys?  Then yes, there's no strict policy, the boys make the determination as to how they wish to handle who leads them.  For this unit it seems to be working very well.  Your mileage may vary.


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#24 qwazse

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 08:02 PM

At issue @Stosh and @NJCubScouter, is how much access you give boys to BSA literature, and then allow them to make a decision on operations. If you leave the room and then tell them to have a slate upon your return, with no knowledge of the possibility of scheduling regular elections, that's as adult led as any more regimented troop.

If, on the other hand, you have the boys read the pertinent sections of the handbook(s), ask them how they think it should apply to their troop, and give them a means to approve that mode of operation, with the scribe noting it in their minutes, and the historian filing a copy, you've allowed youth to lead and provided a decent management skill in the process.

You also leave open the possibility for future youth to make a course correction.


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#25 Stosh

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 08:22 PM

Ownership with an educated decision by the boys makes life so much easier on the adults, too.


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#26 Eagledad

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 05:28 PM

Ownership with an educated decision by the boys makes life so much easier on the adults, too.

Not really, doesn't matter the term or the process for determining who's in what positions, what the Scouts learn from their choices and performance is determined by adults. Seems many of us get stuck in the weeds with the small stuff when it's the big stuff that makes the difference. Some of us focus on details, some of us focus on the big picture. Either way, understanding Aims and Methods makes the scout growth process easier.

Barry

Edited by Eagledad, 03 August 2017 - 05:29 PM.

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#27 Stosh

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 06:24 PM

...Or one can teach the boys the various choices and then give them the permission and authority, sit back, trust them to make the right choices for their particular needs.  It's tough as an adult to turn over such ownership to the boys and trust them to make the decision.  After all isn't that what an election really is - them making the decision?  The only difference if allow is the choice of election, selection, consensus, straws, volunteering, or whatever.  The decision is still the boys'. they own it.

 

If they opt for Rock-Paper-Scissors and it causes problems, isn't that really the same as election of a popular scout over a qualified scout?  In my case, they don't have to suffer until the next election cycle, they are empowered to fix the problem right away.


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#28 Kcaine

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 06:54 PM

Ok I am all about boys deciding. In the last 3 elections we have had 3 horrible SPL and the same ASPL who just kind of stands there. The problem our troop is that we went from a troop of 8 boys to now having g about 40 boys. But the oldest boys have set the tone of it just being social hour. They have so much time vested in them but they aren't teaching. It has become a domino effect on the next age group. And I am seeing these boys start to show this as well. Our younger scouts look up to these older scouts. So they are like a big deal to them. Our SM is a mess too. I feel the reason our SPL have been horrible is due to lack of guidance from our SM. The biggest problem isn't our scouts. It is our SM who doesn't oversee, guide, or set the tone or expectation. We have a SM who has these ideas, but doesn't follow through or rely on her ASM to help. We have a leadership in adults issue . But feel that due to this going on for so long, it has set the tone for the boys. If that makes sense.
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#29 Stosh

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 07:22 PM

Welcome to the forum!

 

How much training do your boys get beyond the requirements?

 

If no one lays out the expectations, the boys aren't going to just magically come up with what to do on their own.

 

Are you using the Patrol Method and are your PL's trained

 

If all 40 boys are just hanging around socializing, they need to be broken up into patrols and start functioning as patrols.  At least the socializing will get cut into smaller groups.

 

You have enough boys for 5 patrols and that would be enough for a PLC.  Have the SPL focus on just the PLC until the PL's get functional.

 

I had an SPL for 3 patrols and his sole responsibility was the support and work with the PL's.  There was no "troop" just 3 patrols.   

 

Sounds like the growth was way to sudden that no one could keep up.  If the adults are overwhelmed so will the boys be.  Break it up into smaller more manageable pieces.


Edited by Stosh, 03 August 2017 - 07:26 PM.

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#30 MattR

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 08:04 PM

Going from 8 to 40 scouts is going to be hard for anyone to figure out. What works for8 will not work for 40. It will be hard enough for the adults to figure out what is needed for all the change. For the scouts it will be worse. I don't think you can expect the scouts to lead without some guidance. The question is what guidance is needed? It's important that all the adults are on the same page with this. It can't just be one adult that's developing the leadership.

Maybe you can help start that discussion with the SM.

With 30 new scouts my guess is there's a need for the young scouts to understand what teamwork means before real leadership can take hold. Everyone having their responsibility, helping out, solving problems, that sort of thing. Not just the words but doing it. After that's in place adding leadership will be much easier.
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#31 Eagledad

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 08:42 PM

...Or one can teach the boys the various choices and then give them the permission and authority, sit back, trust them to make the right choices for their particular needs.  It's tough as an adult to turn over such ownership to the boys and trust them to make the decision.  After all isn't that what an election really is - them making the decision?  The only difference if allow is the choice of election, selection, consensus, straws, volunteering, or whatever.  The decision is still the boys'. they own i.


I don't know stosh, you are a lot more hands on with the Scouts than we are. The Scouts run a simple process where each scout can apply for a chance to be a leader. It's not rocket science and I don't think the Scouts need a masters degree to pick leaders. They have their handbooks if theywant new ideas. It's such a small part of the program that We don't see the big deal. The one time I proposed something different, the PLC politely voted me down. They like how they pick leaders. Who am I to say otherwise.

Elections are a big deal for you. Maybe because your 5 Scouts are so young. Our troop is more mature, so are adults don't get involved.

Barry
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#32 Stosh

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 06:31 AM

I have no idea where you get the notion that that I am "hands on" or even focused on leadership selection.  My experience comes from large troop of 40+ boys to a troop that grew from 5 to 30 in 3 years and now a new troop sporting 6 boys.  I have observed a large troop of adult led elections and even SPL placement by adults down to total hands off boy led (Lord of the Flies) approach and observed how the boys how it all works.  Presently I have 6 boys and their selection of PL has occurred twice.  The first PL quit because he preferred sports and the second PL has been in that position for well over a year.  No one has said anything about the leadership being a problem.  In the second troop I was involved with the transition between adult led and boy led produced the quick growth of 5 to 30 and I never was involved in the leadership selection process.  Again, there was only incident where two boys wanted to be PL and APL of a new patrol, went out and tried to get new recruits from the community, decided it wasn't any fun and then went back to their old patrol.    The main issue for them was while they were off camping with their "new" patrol that didn't happen, all their buddies were hanging out having a great time.  The patrols were kept as separate as possible considering the site.  I watched this process for almost a year without saying anything and they finally made the decision to return to their own patrol on their own. 

 

I am about the least involved adult in any youth leadership selection.  I really don't care.  But I'll add the caveat that all the boys are mentored in the leadership process, so that eventually all have a chance to be involved.  For me leadership is required of all participants, not just a few.  Sometimes the PL leads, sometimes the APL leads, sometimes the QM leads, sometimes the GrubMaster leads, sometimes the Chaplain's Aide leads.  Just depends on the needs of the patrol at any given time.  The only time a duty roster is posted is at summer camp where the camp staff insists on it.  Everyone ignores it because it really isn't needed.  My job as SM is to offer advice when asked and watch and make sure it doesn't turn into Lord of the Flies which has never happened. 

 

I initiated the process in both my last two troops with Green Bar Bill's leadership training process.  It's terribly outdated, but it still works just fine for my boys.  I had only one boy take NYLT and he came back and let everyone know that the system we were using was better than what he learned there.  It was impossible for me to get boys to NYLT after that.  Why?  Because the boy was one of my best scouts and everyone in the troop respected his leadership.  I was kinda disappointed in his comments, but I didn't interfere. 


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Stosh

 

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#33 KenD500

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 06:12 AM

 

 

The SM is the advisor to the PLC, SPL and PLs. Scouting is not like Lord of the Flies, where the boys reign without input. The SM is like a firearms instructor. He ensures safety, teaches technique but in the end allows the shooter to aim, fire and adjust. The SM gives advice and they try again.

This is one of the best comparisons I've heard.  Analogy?  Simile?  Metaphor?


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#34 Col. Flagg

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 08:25 AM

This is one of the best comparisons I've heard.  Analogy?  Simile?  Metaphor?

 

As a shooting sports instructor I have always believe this example of the SM's role. We never grab the gun (unless it's a safety issue). We instruct on form, technique and process. They miss the target and we advised them based on observations how to correct their mistake. They hit a few, miss a few. We readjust, provide more commentary and advice and they try again.

 

My biggest issue with leadership within the unit is not with the youth, it's with the adults. We hold TLT every year. We have special classes on program planning and event planning. But the parents think that "once taught, forever retained". Again, I use the shooting sports analogy: Scouts don't become expert marksmen (leaders) overnight. It takes practice, practice, practice.


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#35 TAHAWK

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 08:48 AM

Scouts, you are about to vote for Senior Patrol Leader.

 

In case you have not noticed, I want you to understand the job of Senior Patrol Leader,

 

The SPL is responsible for running all Troop activities, including troop meetings, campouts, and Patrol Leaders' Council meetings.  He is responsible for keeping those activities running properly.  He must help resolve any conflicts at those activities.  That takes maturity, understanding, organization, and a certain level of intelligence.

 

The SPL represents the Troop at district events such as the Camporee and Klondike Derby.  So your SPL needs to be someone the other SPLs respect and will listen to.

 

Your APL runs the [annual/semi-annual] planning meetings where the troop's program is planned.  Once that plan is decided on, the SPL must convince the adults of the Troop Committee to go along with the program.  So you better elect someone whom the adults will take seriously.

 

The SPL appoints his assistant(s) and the other Troop officers, such as the Quartermaster and Scribe.  This means he needs to be good at deciding who can do a job and good at supervising their work.

 

Above all, the SPL has to be present to do his jobs.  Someone who is not present almost all the time simply cannot be a success as SPL.  So think about who is almost always at the meetings and other activities.  That is the kind of Scout you want as your SPL.

 

Make a good choice.  You will have to live with how well - or how poorly - your chosen SPL performs.


Edited by TAHAWK, 10 August 2017 - 08:49 AM.

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