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Youth Behavior at 2017 Jamboree


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#81 perdidochas

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 09:10 AM

Sorry if you thought I was making any references to you.  We all own the onus of teaching these things to our kids, even outside of scouting.  Sadly there are those out there that don't.

Exactly.  


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#82 fred johnson

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 01:27 PM

BSA was created years ago because of a need to teach youth outdoor skills, citizenship and physical fitness.

Perhaps the Jamboree issues reveal the real timely need for this new generation.  Going fully co-ed would foce youth to learn respect and how to work together.  Isolating one gender does not help when those genders will encounter each other and need to work together.  

 


Edited by fred johnson, 07 August 2017 - 01:29 PM.

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#83 Col. Flagg

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 01:43 PM

BSA was created years ago because of a need to teach youth outdoor skills, citizenship and physical fitness.

Perhaps the Jamboree issues reveal the real timely need for this new generation.  Going fully co-ed would foce youth to learn respect and how to work together.  Isolating one gender does not help when those genders will encounter each other and need to work together.  

 

Not even when that same organization supposed to be teaching the Scout Law and Oath? C'mon, really Fred?

 

Let's not pretend that adding girls to the mix is going to magically stop sexual harassment, stop theft (also a big problem at Jambo) or increase respect of others and self. These are problems attributable to degradation of these principles in society and the break down of the nuclear family. Kids who watch reality TV, come from a single parent families, have poor adult role models or no spiritual forces in their life are likely to have this lack of respect for Scouting ideals and others.

 

Adding girls in to Scouting is not the cure for all socio-economic ills that are manifest in large Scouting events like Jambo. 


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#84 fred johnson

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 02:05 PM

Adding girls in to Scouting is not the cure for ... 

 

I agree it's not a cure all.  But it's unreasonable to not expect questionable behavior when most scouts are in an all male scouting experience and then attend a co-ed Jamoboree.  Civility is not what it was.  Perhaps it should be a new focal point. 


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#85 Col. Flagg

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 02:23 PM

I agree it's not a cure all.  But it's unreasonable to not expect questionable behavior when most scouts are in an all male scouting experience and then attend a co-ed Jamoboree.  Civility is not what it was.  Perhaps it should be a new focal point. 

 

I respectfully disagree. If these young men belong to a program where they are held to the standards they recite a few times a month, they wouldn't act like that. If these young men were held to higher standards at school or in their home, they wouldn't act like that. If these young men had a stronger spiritual influence in their life, they wouldn't act like that.

 

Let's face it, these kids don't act like this because they were in a single-sex environment and suddenly were thrust in to a coed environment. I'd buy that if they lived on a single-sex planet, but they don't. They go to school with girls, they go to the mall or water parks and see girls all the time! 

 

This was little boys not being held to the standards they claim to aspire to. This was adults hiding behind the "boy led" mantra and not getting out and making sure their guys were acting like human beings. These guys know better, they just elected to be tools. Coed is all around them in their daily lives and it had no impact on their behavior. They simply thought they could get away with it.


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#86 perdidochas

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 02:35 PM

I agree it's not a cure all.  But it's unreasonable to not expect questionable behavior when most scouts are in an all male scouting experience and then attend a co-ed Jamoboree.  Civility is not what it was.  Perhaps it should be a new focal point. 

I disagree, as we expect most Boy Scout youth to behave civilly in their non-Scout lives (i.e. in the mostly coed world (for most scouts) of middle and high school).  It is reasonable to not expect questionable behavior from Boy Scouts.  


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#87 Stosh

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 04:38 PM

Lemme see..... Co-ed is good for the BSA just like it's been good for dozens of other youth organizations out there.  Okay, let's then ask the question what's left out there on the market for those who want a all-male, masculine youth development program where boys can learn how to be men, fathers, husbands, and be able to provide those things when they mature.

 

Oh, girls can do all of that, too..... which means the males are no longer a functionally needed part of society anymore.  Which is great, because one can then go fishing, hunting. camping, boating 24/7 and be totally irresponsible.  Let the single moms be the breadwinners, the financial stability, the protector, the provider.  They can be the Zena Warrior Princesses and defend our country along with financially supporting their children in 2 years of 24/7 day care while they are deployed over-seas.

 

They got it covered, what say you and I grab a brewski and head on down to the lake for some serious fishing?   Works for me.

 

And what's seriously going to fill in the gaps in this whole process the BSA is going through?

 

Name the #1 ranked all male youth group in America today?  Yep urban gangs.  Oh, but you say they are co-ed?  Seriously?  How many females really are in any form of leadership in those groups?  Without the moral compass of course it'll become even worse.  Idle males hanging around with nothing to do.  Lord of the Flies anyone?

 

Okay, name the second all-male groupings in today's society?  ....   Yeah, me to, I'm still thinking.


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#88 mashmaster

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 12:54 AM

Lemme see..... Co-ed is good for the BSA just like it's been good for dozens of other youth organizations out there.  Okay, let's then ask the question what's left out there on the market for those who want a all-male, masculine youth development program where boys can learn how to be men, fathers, husbands, and be able to provide those things when they mature.

 

Oh, girls can do all of that, too..... which means the males are no longer a functionally needed part of society anymore.  Which is great, because one can then go fishing, hunting. camping, boating 24/7 and be totally irresponsible.  Let the single moms be the breadwinners, the financial stability, the protector, the provider.  They can be the Zena Warrior Princesses and defend our country along with financially supporting their children in 2 years of 24/7 day care while they are deployed over-seas.

 

They got it covered, what say you and I grab a brewski and head on down to the lake for some serious fishing?   Works for me.

 

And what's seriously going to fill in the gaps in this whole process the BSA is going through?

 

Name the #1 ranked all male youth group in America today?  Yep urban gangs.  Oh, but you say they are co-ed?  Seriously?  How many females really are in any form of leadership in those groups?  Without the moral compass of course it'll become even worse.  Idle males hanging around with nothing to do.  Lord of the Flies anyone?

 

Okay, name the second all-male groupings in today's society?  ....   Yeah, me to, I'm still thinking.

Are you serious?   Because BSA goes co-ed, people leave the program for gangs?  There will be adult leaders of both sexes teaching the boys and girls the scout law and values.  It seems to work for Venturing quite well.


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#89 qwazse

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 04:13 AM

Are you serious?   Because BSA goes co-ed, people leave the program for gangs?  There will be adult leaders of both sexes teaching the boys and girls the scout law and values.  It seems to work for Venturing quite well.

Really? "quite well"? If "quite well" means fastest decline of all divisions, then it's no wonder BSA machinates over unpopular programs.
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#90 skeptic

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 03:38 PM

We continue to act as if somehow BSA is going to be able to overcome the flaws that so dominate in our current society, if only we can make them live by the codes of honor that are the foundation of BSA. It is true that Scouting began as an approach to deal with wayward youth of the nineteenth and early twentieth century.  Then there were many issues that have since gone away, or been rendered far less of a problem at least.  But, of course, we have continued to have new negative distractions created, many which may seem far worse than those of over a century ago.  While they are different, the basic problem is still in the way adults respond, especially those supposedly closest to the youth, or in positions of particular authority or instruction.  

 

If you spend much time in our school systems, even the best, it is obvious that far too many students have not learned basic social skills at home, nor do many parents seem to feel obligated to support the needed discipline when their child over steps the school or societal boundaries.  We more and more have similar challenges as Scout leaders.  

 

But, as "leaders" we must decide how much effort we want to spend on dealing with the recalcitrant scouts and often non-supportive parents.  IF we are to succeed more than fail, we have to understand we will never win them all, but also, my experience has shown that many battles I have feared lost, later have proven to have left a spark that germinated into a positive change later in a scout's life, even if they had left the program.  

 

Yet, I am particularly bothered by how often today many Scouters(?) no longer set the examples we hope our youth will aspire to based on the Oath and Law.  Still, that then is our continued challenge.  It is sad that it needs to be pointed out more to the adults today than we might expect.  On the other hand, perhaps it has always been this way, only portrayed in a different manner.  My father told me once, when I had only been a leader about ten years or less that my frustration with the level of parental involvement was nothing new.  He took me back to our time together in my Scouting youth and pointed out how many boys there were and how few parents.  

 

So, we work to continue to expose as many youth as we can to what we still consider worthwhile endeavors, while setting our best examples and trying to keep the fun in it at the same time.  It does little good to abandon the good, which is still the largest part of the program when run, with the basic tenets as a guide, just because it changes with the fast paced societal confrontations and challenges.

 

I am not yet to the point of giving up, especially since I have reached the point where I have grown scouts reaching out to me for advice with their own children, or telling me how much their time with us meant to them.  It is a point of sincere pride that I can honestly point to so many of my past scouts that are doing well in the world, and that a few of those that I was so disappointed at having "lost", have come back twenty years later to tell me how those principles they chafed at or ignored, eventually came to make sense and lit their paths later in life.  Now, some of them have their own children in the program, even a few in our troop.

 

On MY HONOR, I will do MY BEST.  Hopefully I will continue to find ways to meet that simple challenge and pass the principles on to another generation.  


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#91 SpEdScouter

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 02:55 PM

On theft,

I dont understand. At camp my son always had a locked storage container. Actually our SM requires them and the SM also keeps a set of the keys.

 

Bigger items, why were they not kept in a secured area like a tent? Plus we always had someone watching over our area.

 

Fact is these are kids and kids do stupid things.


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#92 Col. Flagg

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 02:59 PM

Scouts that steal should be kicked out. Sorry but that's a deal breaker. Everyone knows it's wrong ESPEICALLY a Scout.
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#93 Eagledad

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 03:21 PM

On theft,

I dont understand. At camp my son always had a locked storage container. Actually our SM requires them and the SM also keeps a set of the keys.

 

Bigger items, why were they not kept in a secured area like a tent? Plus we always had someone watching over our area.

 

Fact is these are kids and kids do stupid things.

At what point in the program do your adults feel the scouts are no longer kids who do stupid things?

 

Barry


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"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#94 Ankylus

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 03:26 PM

BSA was created years ago because of a need to teach youth outdoor skills, citizenship and physical fitness.

Perhaps the Jamboree issues reveal the real timely need for this new generation.  Going fully co-ed would foce youth to learn respect and how to work together.  Isolating one gender does not help when those genders will encounter each other and need to work together.  

 

 

Well, I don't know about your scouts, but 98% of ours go to fully coeducational schools and fully coeducational churches and have siblings including sisters. They are not what I would call "isolated" from girls. And I would bet that is true for most of the boys at the National Jamboree. I think going coed would have no effect on these problems. 

 

I personally believe this kind of behavior is largely a product of the breakdown in social mores, poor parenting, and lax adult supervision.


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#95 HelpfulTracks

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 09:37 AM

I agree it's not a cure all.  But it's unreasonable to not expect questionable behavior when most scouts are in an all male scouting experience and then attend a co-ed Jamoboree.  Civility is not what it was.  Perhaps it should be a new focal point. 

 

I respectfully disagree. If these young men belong to a program where they are held to the standards they recite a few times a month, they wouldn't act like that. If these young men were held to higher standards at school or in their home, they wouldn't act like that. If these young men had a stronger spiritual influence in their life, they wouldn't act like that.

 

Let's face it, these kids don't act like this because they were in a single-sex environment and suddenly were thrust in to a coed environment. I'd buy that if they lived on a single-sex planet, but they don't. They go to school with girls, they go to the mall or water parks and see girls all the time! 

 

This was little boys not being held to the standards they claim to aspire to. This was adults hiding behind the "boy led" mantra and not getting out and making sure their guys were acting like human beings. These guys know better, they just elected to be tools. Coed is all around them in their daily lives and it had no impact on their behavior. They simply thought they could get away with it.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^ This! I completely agree.

 

The argument that making scouting co-ed because the scouts need to be exposed to co-ed environements is always one I have a problem with. Because.....

  1. Our youth (at least my son and most of the scouts I deal with) are in more co-ed activities than single gender.
  2. The Scout Oath and Law, if it is being taught and lived by, would preclude this behavior at all times.

I hear the argument that scouting is the best (or only) place can get X or Y.  My question is always then why not change other organizations to be like scouting, rather than change scouting to be like all those other organizations they say are failing to achieve was scouting does for boys. I have yet to hear a convincing argument.


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#96 HelpfulTracks

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 10:09 AM

I was an SM for a Jambo troop. I and my scouts had a great time. When asked, all 36 said they would do it again.

 

Where there issues? Yes.

 

Theft, yes. Any theft at a scouting event is disappointing, (yes, that is Pollyanna). So clearly there was too much. But I would say that 1/3 -1/2 of the "theft" turned out to be misplaced. I cannot tell you how often I heard, "Yes sir, I found it under my cot (and I suspect a large pile of dirty cloths).  The AT&T stations made for hassles, as scouts stole the charging cables. Occasionally some scout would put his phone on a charger and leave it there, come back later and it was gone. I encouraged our parents to get them charging blocks and solar chargers, which made out life much esier because we didnt have to deal with theft as much. The troop did lose a single phone. We did lose a couple of charging blocks that were left unattended at charging stations.

 

We also had some rock throwing incidents from scouts sitting at charging stations, fortunately no one was seriously hurt. A few tents got damaged.

 

Food. Frankly it was much better than I expected. A good bit of that I will contribute to my 2nd ASM and QM. They did a great job of planning meals, getting up early everyday and getting down to the commissary. We always had plenty of food, a pretty good selection and fairly tasty. My biggest complain was everything was processed, so my salt intake shot up. But other than that nothing major to complain about food wise. We did have some issues with the process of getting the food, but as I understand it, each sub camp was a little different, so they could test different ways of doing things.

 

Patch trading. Yes, there were some obnoxious and UN-scoutlike traders. Being an old patch trader, I coached our guys on just moving on if you got that attitude or crazy demands. There were plenty of other people to trade with. I even took a few of them out to coach them in the "pits". I also "brokered" some deals for some scout with adults, since they were not allowed to trade with each other. IN all they learned a good bit about trading, had fun, came home with some cool patches and most importantly did not spend an inordinate amount of time trading.

 

Sexual aggression issues. I never saw that. We were in Delta and the closest troops to Foxtrot (were the crews and international scouts were based). We had a fair amount of interaction with Foxtrot and never had any issues of a sexual nature. Some of our younger scouts had siblings, some just wanted to meeting foreign scouts and some of the older ones knew there were girls up there, lol. Our 3rd ASM is still a Venturing Scout,s o he knew several people up at Foxtrot and took some scouts with him a few nights. I went up a couple of times. There were some aggressive patch traders, but that was about it.  But there were also some very generous scouts there as well. I ran into a crew from Liberia on the wait for rafting and we talked for a while. They gave me this beautiful neckerchief slide made from a native tree. I had nothing with me at the time to give them, but insisted I take it. They seemed very happy when I was able to track them down at Foxtrot and gave them one of our council patch sets. Those are great memories.

 

We had a great time at Jamboree, and while it is expensive, our proximity makes Jamboree a little less expensive than going to the High Adventure bases (unless they do the OA crews).

 

I would recommend Jambo, the upside beats the downside by a mile in my opinion.

 

Hopefully Helpful Tracks


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#97 skeptic

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 10:33 AM

Being an optimist, pretty much, I would surmise that if given similar situations outside of the Boy Scout environment, the negative issues would be greater, probably far greater.  But, Scouts are still youth.  And they are still exposed to a wide arena of negative so called role models that fifty years ago, probably even twenty years ago, are questionable.  Our expectations of most of our scouts are met more often than not, or at least that has been my experience.  You hope for the best and try and use the slips as learning experiences.  You will never win them all, though some of the success may never be seen by you, but will pop up later in their more mature years.


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#98 SR540Beaver

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 09:59 AM

Scouting is like church. There is a saying amongst some Christians that a follower isn't perfect, just forgiven. We like to think a Scout has reached a level of perfection and would never do anything wrong. People are people and they will at times disappoint you. I was an ASM for the 2005 and 2010 Jambos at AP Hill. We required the youth to keep their footlockers locked and always left two adults in camp during the day for security. There were youth there who would look for empty campsites and help themselves. Sad but true. In 2010, our sub camp had very nice big rig trailers that were set up with stainless steel showers. They had even contracted with a group who cleaned them thru the day. That was until some kids decided to take bowel movements in the shower stalls and the cleaning crew said they were done. The showers were locked. Fortunately, the boys in our contingent......who valued showers.....went to the sub camp leadership and asked for cleaning supplies and suggested having shower monitors present to get the showers reopened. It worked. That's the kind of behavior you wouldn't expect from a Scout, but when you have 40,000 parents plunk down the cash to send junior to the Jamboree, the odds are you will get some bad apples in the mix. There are plenty of lessons to be learned when these types of issues come up.
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#99 qwazse

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 10:46 AM

I recently met an Alumni of Scout's Pakistan. He said going to World Jamboree was their "apex" event, and it was contingent on accumulating badges given out over the scout's career for attendance and skill challenges. That how their scouting organization made sure they put their best face forward. I suspect that also discouraged attendance by thieves and brigands.


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