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Youth Behavior at 2017 Jamboree


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#41 Rick_in_CA

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 10:21 PM

When one pushes the age of real maturity in the mid-30's and early 40's, one can expect the growth at the teen years to be retarded  I like to compare it to the college students of my era (1960's) to today's college student.  We protested a war, they protest having to pay off their loans.  Kinda makes one wonder how far

 

In a lot of countries the conference of adulthood is in the early teens.  I can't imagine our 13 year olds going out and killing a lion to prove his manhood or a woman in her early teens giving birth to a child.  There are cultures out there that think this as normal.  I guess the big move to adulthood is moving out of your parents basement sometime after you turn 30.

When I was a child, my first babysitters were 12 and 13 year olds. Now 12 and 13 year olds need babysitters. Not a good trend.


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#42 Back Pack

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 10:22 PM

Really? Not new? Maybe not but the Col.'s points are still valid.
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#43 DuctTape

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 04:19 AM

The stated mission of the bsa is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices... IMO, The real mission in many cases has been reduced to patch and award ackowledgement. When one method (advancement) becomes the goal instead of a means or a metric, the true mission is obscured. I believe the most important requirement in advancement is the scout spirit; demonstrating they live by the scout oath and law. It used to be the First requirement, for good reason. In many cases it has been relegated to an automatically checked-off box. I remember when "being a boy scout" meant (sometimes pejoratively) as a person who did the right thing.

Scourge, I apologize to you and everyone else for the behaviors of these boys. IMO, they are not scouts, they just wear the patch.
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#44 SSScout

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:23 AM

"Stuff happens".

 

Scoutson staffed at the 2010 Jamboree.  We drove him down and helped him schlep his trunk etc. to his staff camp, and met his roomies. shook hands/hugged him goodbye and left.  

 

When we picked him up twelve days later,  he was tan and fit and had stories to tell. One of them involved the number of staffers that were kicked out on the second or third day for marijuana use.  He also said he was glad I suggested a padlock on his trunk, as others reported stuff missing....

 

Sad. 


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#45 RememberSchiff

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:39 AM

I should be able to drop my wallet at a scout camp, have it found by a trustworthy scout, and returned intact.

 

Knock, Knock, Knock.

 

Huh?

 

Hello Mr. Schiff. Ready to go to Old Scouter Home In Trees?


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#46 Stosh

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:54 AM

Over the past 67 years I have returned many a wallet or purse.  It was something I learned in Scouts.  Every time I change a tire for a stranded motorist, they want to pay me for my efforts.  I require they do a "good turn" for another stranded motorist they might encounter. 

 

Just yesterday, my son and I were eating at a buffet style restaurant and a whole family left the table to get food.  Mom left her purse hanging on her chair unattended.  I kept an eye on it while she was gone and when it came time to leave I stopped by her table and warned her about the possibility of it getting stolen if left unattended.  She thanked me....but I told her she "owed" me.  She needed to be telling others about this as well when she sees it. 

 

"Good Turns" cost me nothing.  But I insist that sometime in the future the one I did a good turn for has to do one for someone else.  :)  They may learn along the way that the "pay back" really does not cost them anything as well.  Until this process becomes common place, we as a society will not progress.  I don't know what impact my efforts make, but I'm still going to keep doing it trying to change one person at a time.

 

Morality is not something that comes from the situation, it comes from within in relationship to the situation.


Edited by Stosh, 01 August 2017 - 07:55 AM.

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#47 ianwilkins

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 08:05 AM

I should be able to drop my wallet at a scout camp, have it found by a trustworthy scout, and returned intact.


I'm one of the organisers of an annual weekend camp for about 400 Explorer Scouts and Network over here in the UK, so aged 14-25, plus their leaders.

Two or three years ago at the end of the evening's entertainment we turned the house lights up and a someone handed in a £10 note they'd just found on the floor.

The following morning I did the briefing to everyone, I reminded them that a scout is honest, and that we had found a £10 note and would like to return it.
Of course, a few wags yelled "mine!" instantly. But I insisted, if someone really thought they had lost a tenner, then to let their leader know and we'd sort it.
One Explorer, probably 14 or 15, on the coaches to the days activity, opened his wallet to find just £10 not the £20 he'd come with.
He told his leader. The leader gave him a hard stare, assured himself the lad was probably telling the truth, contacted us, then gave him a tenner, and later, we gave the leader the lost tenner.

Yes, it sure did warm the cockles of our hearts. Of course, we can never be 100% sure, but I'm probably 85% sure the money was reunited with the right person, good enough for me.

Edited by ianwilkins, 01 August 2017 - 08:06 AM.

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#48 Eagledad

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 08:08 AM

We had several hundred scouts pass through our troop over the years I was a scouter. I've worked with all kinds of boys of different personalities, but we never had a single theft in the troop. I think that one statistic alone gave me a lot of faith in the values of the program. We had dozens of instances where scouts approached the senior scouts or the adults claiming someone had stolen some of their property. It just seems to be human natures first natural reaction. But as we gained experienced, we learned to point out to the scout that theft in the troop was very rare. We suggested the scout ask his patrol help him search for the property because it more than likely just misplaced. And it was EVERY time. The stuff scouts lost and found at summer camp was actually comical.

 

Now I know that we were likely just lucky, but I can't help feel that the patrol method and the practice of the scout law in large part deserve much of the credit for the trust in the patrols. 

 

This is a disappointing discussion for me because I know the scouting program works. And yet we are shown in this discussion several examples of scout behaving badly. I don't have a good response for how to change the trend, if it is a trend. But I do believe that a lot of scouters are running their programs wrong. Now I wonder if we need a course in developing street smarts in our scouts, because my scouts would certainly have been naive today.

 

Barry


Edited by Eagledad, 01 August 2017 - 08:11 AM.

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"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#49 ianwilkins

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 08:09 AM

Actually, this thread has left me a little shocked. We're shortly going to select people to come to the world scout jamboree in 2019. I guess I'll have to hope that the attitudes shown is the exception rather than the rule amongst the boy scouts, and that as people will be from all corners of the world, things will be somewhat different.
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#50 RememberSchiff

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 08:32 AM

IMO, there is a disconnect between the Scout Oath and Law and rank Advancement requirements. Rather than Explain Scout Spirit , maybe some observed tests of trustworthy, loyalty, ... of scouts during activities.

 

For example, I have used animals as an indicator of kindness. In my experience, you can tell a lot about a person in how they treat animals.  Most scouts will pet a  tail-wagging dog, fewer kind scouts will notice his water dish is empty and needs to be filled.

 

My $0.02


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#51 DuctTape

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 08:39 AM

Stosh, your response that "she owed me" is similar to what I say. I agree with the rest of your sentiments.
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#52 Eagledad

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 08:54 AM

IMO, there is a disconnect between the Scout Oath and Law and rank Advancement requirements. Rather than Explain Scout Spirit , maybe some observed tests of trustworthy, loyalty, ... of scouts during activities.

 

Probably true, I don't really understand how advancement would drive the practice of the law, but I'm always surprised how leaders think about the program.

 

However, we did try to demonstrate the differences of our decisions once in a while. I would give the SPL a box of tootsie-roll pops to set in the middle of camp with the instructions that anybody can have as many as they want provided they only take one at a time and leave the rapper and stick in the trash. If a scout is found with more than one tootsie pop, or a discarded rapper or stick was not found in the trash, the SPL will take the box and give it back to the SM. It took a couple of campouts for the first box to empty. I never saw a box again after that.

 

We did other simple demonstrations as well so scouts could see their decisions in action. I don't like calling them tests because they were really more of opportunities to learn how oneself would choose without any outside intimidation. And hopefully change from some of the choices they made.

 

Barry


Edited by Eagledad, 01 August 2017 - 08:56 AM.

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"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#53 Gwaihir

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 08:55 AM

I should be able to drop my wallet at a scout camp, have it found by a trustworthy scout, and returned intact.

 

Knock, Knock, Knock.

 

Huh?

 

Hello Mr. Schiff. Ready to go to Old Scouter Home In Trees?

 

now, at least on the street, if you pick up a wallet or purse, you get arrested via abandon wallet sting operations.  better to forget doing your good turn. 


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#54 RememberSchiff

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:12 AM

Probably true, I don't really understand how advancement would drive the practice of the law, but I'm always surprised how leaders think about the program.

 

However, we did try to demonstrate the differences of our decisions once in a while. I would give the SPL a box of tootsie-roll pops to set in the middle of camp with the instructions that anybody can have as many as they want provided they only take one at a time and leave the rapper and stick in the trash. If a scout is found with more than one tootsie pop, or a discarded rapper or stick was not found in the trash, the SPL will take the box and give it back to the SM. It took a couple of campouts for the first box to empty. I never saw a box again after that.

 

We did other simple demonstrations as well so scouts could see their decisions in action. I don't like calling them tests because they were really more of opportunities to learn how oneself would choose without any outside intimidation. And hopefully change from some of the choices they made.

 

Barry

 

I think it should be more situation observations of Scout Law by SM/ASM  as in your example than a test like tie a knot.. We would have to be creative with situations.

 

So come SM conference, a SM ask scout to recite Scout Law with the SM interrupting at each law, Yes Trustworthy I remember you honored your promise to... Oh helpful, I heard that you have shoveled snow away from hydrants,...But thrifty, I'm having trouble. You lived beyond your budget at summer camp trading post....

 

Another $0.02


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#55 Col. Flagg

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:43 AM

IMO, there is a disconnect between the Scout Oath and Law and rank Advancement requirements. Rather than Explain Scout Spirit , maybe some observed tests of trustworthy, loyalty, ... of scouts during activities.

 

Some of this comes from home. Parents tend to manage their kids in the areas of MBs and rank advancement. "Fill out an MB sheet and you're done with the MB, right?" asks a mother. Tell her no, and she will wonder why since the "work" was done. One wonders if she tracks their child's homework with the same veracity. 

 

Parents have become box checkers. Is it any wonder that their kids are as well? And then an SM tries to correct this in the Scouting program and meets resistance; the SM eventually gives up because the task and cacophony of screaming parents and harassing emails becomes too great. The cycle continues and you get mediocrity in Scouting.


Edited by Col. Flagg, 01 August 2017 - 09:44 AM.

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#56 Fehler

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 02:01 PM

Some of you are comparing a incident of sexual harassment to finding loose change on the ground.  That is not comparable.  And I'm deeply troubled that someone brought a "what was she wearing" argument into it. 

 

This girl was assaulted at a scouting event.  By scouts.  Maybe large events like these need to institute an "attitude deposit", an extra $200 (heck, what's another 10%) charged to each scout that is forfeit if another scout in their contingent behaves in a criminal or abusive manner.


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#57 Back Pack

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 02:17 PM

Some of you are comparing a incident of sexual harassment to finding loose change on the ground.  That is not comparable.  And I'm deeply troubled that someone brought a "what was she wearing" argument into it. 
 
This girl was assaulted at a scouting event.  By scouts.  Maybe large events like these need to institute an "attitude deposit", an extra $200 (heck, what's another 10%) charged to each scout that is forfeit if another scout in their contingent behaves in a criminal or abusive manner.


I think you misread a great deal. All of the replies addressing harassment were supportive of stopping it. Other posts were addressing the stealing. No one equated the sexual harassment to loose change.
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#58 qwazse

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 02:55 PM

@Fehler, I don't think these guys were making a moral equivalence. They were going over ways that scouts at age 11 and 12 develop courtesy and loyalty.

Loyalty comes in to play here, because venturing females are exotic creatures among Boy Scouts. They can either be respected for what they bring to the scouting table, or they can be treated as outsiders invading their scouting turf. When the latter happens, there is a misplaced loyalty to some gang land vision of manhood.

But this slices in the opposite direction as well. I've had girls who wanted to "style up" their image in their uniform (leave open more than one button on a green shirt, or tie it off in a mid-riff). It's a really tough sell convincing them that loyalty to the organization should triumph loyalty to some fashionista. Although @Scourge, I'm sure, made no comprise with her uniform, others have.

Norming both groups takes time.
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#59 Ankylus

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 04:38 PM

Is this the norm for Jambo, I am not saying that.  I have no idea how widespread this was and I get this is all anecdotal based on what the boys from our troop experienced. 

 

I will say it: yes, this is normal for jamboree. The undesirable patch trading attitude and practices...I saw that when I was at the 1977 National Jamboree, too. People selfishly abusing the electrical outlets? 

 

There are tens of thousands of people at Jamboree. Statistically speaking you  KNOW there are going to be people doing all of which you complain and then some. And even a small percentage of a very large number of people is still a lot of people. Yes, it is disappointing that scout don't act in a scout-like manner. But it's the way of the world that every large group will have some bad apples.

 

The trick is to know it and successfully navigate it so that you still have a good time. It seems your son did. Kudos to him, for he has experienced a good life lesson and come out on top. And that sounds a bit like scouting to me.


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#60 Stosh

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 04:49 PM

I keep going back to sticks and stones.  If the girl was molested, call the police, that's their job to handle not the BSA.  If money was stolen call the police, that's their job. etc.  Now if the police don't think this is a big enough issue to deal with, why are we arm-chair quarterbacks so worked up.

 

A girl was hassled, happens every day, they learn to deal with it.  Scout's break the Scout Law, it happens every day, we learn to deal with it.

 

This what we DO as adults working with immature youth.  It's our job.  Start doing it and quit complaining about how you haven't handled it to allow it to get to this point.  If your boys witness this girls harassment and did nothing about it, you've got work to do.  Worry about your boy's inaction and let others handle the harassment issue of the boy and any issues with the girls.  I'm sure this isn't the first time some over-hormoned teen boy has said anything to her.  One cannot change the behavior of boys in other troops, but one can start with the behavior or lack there of of one own troop.

 

And from my arm-chair, I didn't see it, I don't even know if it really happened, Whatever story I get is hearsay, and in the meantime, I'm going to store away the possibility of it happening and work with my boys so that they aren't the ones in the next story I hear.


Edited by Stosh, 01 August 2017 - 04:51 PM.

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