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Youth Behavior at 2017 Jamboree


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#21 Col. Flagg

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 09:54 AM

What's up with the Food?  that was the second complaint I heard.

 

Think institutional food for 40,000. Units would be better off bringing their own.


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#22 Scourge

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 10:57 AM

I strongly can attest to your son's assessment of unscoutlike behavior at the 2017 Jamboree.  So many of my fellow crew members were stolen from.  Entire backpacks, chargers, patches, phones, shoes, anything.  My biggest problem was catcalling.  As a female venture scout, me and other females were constantly being catcalled and made uncomfortable.  A boy said he would enter the youth female changing tent while I was in there. I yelled at him (not a nice thing at all) from inside the tent and he ran away.  My friend was patch trading down in Charlie and decided not to make a trade.  Because of this she was called a "dumb whore".  I was throwing away trash and a scout tried to grab my attention yelling "Hey baby mama!" I decided to ignore it and keep walking.  But he ran in front of me, looked me up and down and said " Wassup baby mama!?"  I tried to address his behavior but he went away.  I wanted to talk to his scout master but lost him in the huge crowds.  I was also walking back from a show last night.  A boy approached my friend and told her. "Ma'am you dropped something." she looked at the ground confused.  He said "You dropped your standards, hi, I'm Issac."  Then less than a minute later a scout walked up behind me and sounded like a broken record saying "Romance, romance, I want a romance, romance, romance, I want a romance!" The entire time us venture scouts were treated like novelties that were there to be flirted with and embarrassed.  This made me lose a lot of respect for the BSA.  If it's ok to treat women like that with no consequences whatsoever, what kind of organization is it? 


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#23 wdfa89

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 11:30 AM

What's up with the Food?  that was the second complaint I heard.

It was fine.  He just wasn't a big fan but it had much more to do with what his troop mates picked out every day and how they prepared it than anything BSA/Jambo staff would be responsible for.  Camp food for 40K, it isn't going to be Smith and Woll.  I wouldn't count it as a valid complaint, just a picky teen.  He didn't go hungry.


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#24 Col. Flagg

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 11:41 AM

The entire time us venture scouts were treated like novelties that were there to be flirted with and embarrassed.  This made me lose a lot of respect for the BSA.  If it's ok to treat women like that with no consequences whatsoever, what kind of organization is it? 

 

A female Venturer from our district wore a "body cam" the whole time she was there. If guys pulled that stuff she simply said "This thing's rolling and I have your face and your unit number. Expect a visit from the Camp Director." She's a budding police officer and refused to put up with that stuff. According to her she turned in about 6 guys. She said she could have turned in 5 times that but it would have been a full time job.

 

Exactly why we are dissing the Intl Jambo and going to Alaska for high adventure instead. The girls want adventure, not harassment.


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#25 wdfa89

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 11:47 AM

breaks my heart.  as I said before I am realist,  but I just want to be an idealist  when it comes to Scouting.  Luckily, these reports have been an anomaly in my son's experience and I will work to keep it that way--for all.


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#26 Eagledad

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 12:07 PM

 

Exactly why we are dissing the Intl Jambo and going to Alaska for high adventure instead. The girls want adventure, not harassment.

Do you believe the boys will behave better?

 

Barry


Edited by Eagledad, 31 July 2017 - 12:08 PM.

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#27 qwazse

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 12:09 PM

@Scourge, thanks for the boots-on-the-ground viewpoint.
I am speaking as a guy who who was enamored with the Swedish scouts visiting Jambo way back when ....

No, sexual harassment and thievery is not scout like. The handbook makes it very clear. As doss the 5th point of the law.
But Boy Scouts don't often read these pages. And they apply the law to little old ladies, but not their peers.
Obviously they know that their SM's would not approve of this behavior, so they aren't going to act up when anyone they should respect is watching.

So, it's up to you and your fellow venturers and any noble scout in the vicinity to call them out on this at their first uncouth action or deed.
"Scout, your troop number!"
Would go a long way. You were all well within your rights complaining to the scout's SM, if you or your Jambo advisor could find him.

You and your advisors should write a letter to your Scout Executive and the Chief Scout Executive.
And this really isn't about defending you and your friends. It's about life skills. Both yours and the scouts who behaved badly.
You need the skills to build a workplace where you can do the best job you can. So do those scouts.
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#28 Scourge

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 12:14 PM

A female Venturer from our district wore a "body cam" the whole time she was there. If guys pulled that stuff she simply said "This thing's rolling and I have your face and your unit number. Expect a visit from the Camp Director." She's a budding police officer and refused to put up with that stuff. According to her she turned in about 6 guys. She said she could have turned in 5 times that but it would have been a full time job.

That is great, I wish I had a go pro to do that.  Props to her for not only calling them out but making sure their behaviors would be dealt with later. 


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#29 Col. Flagg

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 12:31 PM

 I am saddened by what Jambo has become (edited by RS to remove reference to deleted post. No drama, just a mistaken posting. ). The patch trading was less commoditized than it is today. Girls weren't around (other than staff) and we were too shy to approach them. In any event, we certainly would have acted better than a pack of dogs in heat as is described above.

 

My guys and gals avoid Jambo for one simple reason: Cost. It costs them $2300 or more to go as part of our council contingent. For that money they can go on three high adventure trips and live like royalty! When you figure in cost, weather, crowds, thefts, etc., I could not pay my youth to go to Jambo. 

 

We have been to Kandersteg instead. Cost the same, MUCH better environment.

 

 

Do you believe the boys will behave better?

 

Barry

 

We have had great luck at council camps for summer camp and high adventure. Only a few reports over the years of girls being poorly treated. Both camp and unit staff nipped that in the bud and the Scout(s) in question either repented or were sent home. Never had an issue at Kandersteg. To be honest, my girls would give any guy a "big does of Texas" if they treated them like that. They figure if you are going to break the Oath and Law, they will too.  ;)  As the father of a daughter I do not blame them.


Edited by RememberSchiff, 31 July 2017 - 12:55 PM.
Removed reference to requested deleted post

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#30 wdfa89

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 12:49 PM

slightly off topic, but related, how does Jambo environment (obviously not activities) compare with NOAC (w/in the context we have been discussing) if anyone has some insight?  my limited anecdotal evidence is there is patch trading but much less cutthroat and emphasized for example.


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#31 Eagledad

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 12:51 PM

Col., my apologies for my first post.  I didn't mean to post it, but I hit the wrong key in my effort to get out of the editor. When I edited it after it posted to remove the content, the editor would not accept my changes, I don't know why. I sent a note to the moderators.

 

Since you brought it up, I'm not sure where exactly the crux of the problem lies, I have a few stories where the female (both adult and scout) members of the BSA behaved badly (in a sexual aggression context) as well. I am truly disturbed by Scourge's post and embarrassed. Not as a male, but as a Scout. If I were the SM of those boys, there would a realignment process in order.

 

But I feel this is bigger than just a BSA event. And that is what really bothers me. I am the grandfather of an 18 month girl. What do her parents, as well as my future grand son's, have to look forward to?

 

I want to add that I am impressed by Scourge's controlled reactions to these boys. Someone held up the reputation of the programs values. Thanks Scourge.

 

Barry


Edited by Eagledad, 31 July 2017 - 01:07 PM.

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#32 RememberSchiff

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 12:59 PM

Col., my apologies for my first post.  I didn't mean to post it, but I hit the wrong key in my effort to get out of the editor. When I edited it after it posted to remove the content, the editor would not accept my changes, I don't know why. I sent a note to the moderators.


Barry

My apologies too. I was slow to respond. Hopefully all reset now.  - RS


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#33 Eagledad

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 01:06 PM

We have had great luck at council camps for summer camp and high adventure. Only a few reports over the years of girls being poorly treated. Both camp and unit staff nipped that in the bud and the Scout(s) in question either repented or were sent home. Never had an issue at Kandersteg. To be honest, my girls would give any guy a "big does of Texas" if they treated them like that. They figure if you are going to break the Oath and Law, they will too.  ;)  As the father of a daughter I do not blame them.

I'm not sure this means much because there are a lot more unit leaders around in these camps to prevent the aggression Scourge experienced.

 

Our troop worked by a motto that we developed our scouts maturity so that if the adults didn't show up, their behavior wouldn't change. Scourge's experience is exactly what we are talking about. 

 

I'm not going to say our scouts would never embarrass themselves with bad behavior because the whole idea of the patrol method program is that we hope they learn proper boundaries from their poor decisions. But I will say we gave them a lot of rope (independence) to fail within our program.

 

I have said here many times that the troop experience is the real world experience scaled down to a boys size experience. We want the boys to fail in the troop program so the lessons they learn help them mature for the real world. From a cultural perspective, I wonder if that is the problem with today's society. 

 

Barry


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#34 Col. Flagg

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 01:25 PM

Col., my apologies for my first post.  I didn't mean to post it, but I hit the wrong key in my effort to get out of the editor. When I edited it after it posted to remove the content, the editor would not accept my changes, I don't know why. I sent a note to the moderators.

 

Since you brought it up, I'm not sure where exactly the crux of the problem lies, I have a few stories where the female (both adult and scout) members of the BSA behaved badly (in a sexual aggression context) as well. I am truly disturbed by Scourge's post and embarrassed. Not as a male, but as a Scout. If I were the SM of those boys, there would a realignment process in order.

 

But I feel this is bigger than just a BSA event. And that is what really bothers me. I am the grandfather of an 18 month girl. What do her parents, as well as my future grand son's, have to look forward to?

 

I want to add that I am impressed by Scourge's controlled reactions to these boys. Someone held up the reputation of the programs values. Thanks Scourge.

 

Barry

 

No worries, Barry. I didn't see anything requiring an apology. You're probably just being nice. 

 

I have no clue where this problem lies. Actually, that's not true. I do have a suspicion where it lies but it is not a popular one and will likely make me sound like the old Dana Carvey character on SNL, "Grumpy Old Man".

 

I think the problem lies with society. It lies with the video games kids play (and parents allow). It lies with the TV shows networks air and what passes for entertainment. It lies with instant gratification. It lies with the "trophies for everyone" mentality. It lies with the social media approach to news, information and narcissistic display of one-upsmanship we see every day. It lies with the lack of manners and respect for one's self and others. It lies with the slow eroding of family values and teaching of morals. That's not code for anything, it just simply means that most boys won't act like that when they have a solid, working father figure in their life that respects women. It means that when families eat together, instead of in front of the TV or at a fast food restaurant every night, their son can be taught respect for his mother, sister and female relatives. He can learn to honor them instead of objectifying them.

 

Darn it....see, I got on my soap box again.  Sorry.

 

image.gif


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#35 Stosh

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 02:57 PM

Not an excuse, just an observation.

 

Church youth groups of this age are co-ed and there is very little problem with "hormonal aggression".  Being adult led, the adults deal swiftly and often times quite harshly with it.  It depends a bit on the liberal/conservative nature of the church.  Usually the more conservative groups tend to be more well behaved.

 

Scout groups I work with Cub/Scout are not co-ed and I don't have to deal with it.  We did have a problem with a female Venturing scout who wore short-shorts and tied her t-shirt and "waltzed" around among the boys until a female SM stepped in and told her to grow up and get dressed.  In Venturing as an advisor, I didn't run into any male-female issues.  Just had a nice bunch, I guess.

 

The community youth groups I work with are the worst.  'nuff said.


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#36 Gwaihir

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 03:10 PM

No worries, Barry. I didn't see anything requiring an apology. You're probably just being nice. 

 

I have no clue where this problem lies. Actually, that's not true. I do have a suspicion where it lies but it is not a popular one and will likely make me sound like the old Dana Carvey character on SNL, "Grumpy Old Man".

 

I think the problem lies with society. It lies with the video games kids play (and parents allow). It lies with the TV shows networks air and what passes for entertainment. It lies with instant gratification. It lies with the "trophies for everyone" mentality. It lies with the social media approach to news, information and narcissistic display of one-upsmanship we see every day. It lies with the lack of manners and respect for one's self and others. It lies with the slow eroding of family values and teaching of morals. That's not code for anything, it just simply means that most boys won't act like that when they have a solid, working father figure in their life that respects women. It means that when families eat together, instead of in front of the TV or at a fast food restaurant every night, their son can be taught respect for his mother, sister and female relatives. He can learn to honor them instead of objectifying them.

 

Darn it....see, I got on my soap box again.  Sorry.

 

image.gif

 

for the most part, that sounds about right.  :/ 

 

I think instant gratification is a big one in that mix, and the BSA is catering to that problem year in and year out unfortunately.  


Edited by Gwaihir, 31 July 2017 - 03:11 PM.

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#37 MattR

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 03:29 PM

This is one of those situations where I have to remind myself that not all people that talk about morals are good. But still, this is disheartening. The fact that one young women even thought of bringing a body camera says a lot to how bad things are.

 

So why weren't there any boy Scouts backing up Scourge? My guess is the scouts that made all these stupid comments would not have done this if there were adults around or if any scouts had told them to shut up. Something about your character is best shown when nobody important is around.

 

How about the irony of this situation? One of the speakers at the jamboree has a history of saying crude things to women. But we had to invite him or else we'd get into a discussion about freedom of speech. Scouts have a high standard but our elected leaders don't. How confusing is that to a kid?

 

Don't think I'm picking on just one side. So many of us hate the other guy so much that anything is justified.


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#38 Stosh

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 05:09 PM

When one pushes the age of real maturity in the mid-30's and early 40's, one can expect the growth at the teen years to be retarded  I like to compare it to the college students of my era (1960's) to today's college student.  We protested a war, they protest having to pay off their loans.  Kinda makes one wonder how far

 

In a lot of countries the conference of adulthood is in the early teens.  I can't imagine our 13 year olds going out and killing a lion to prove his manhood or a woman in her early teens giving birth to a child.  There are cultures out there that think this as normal.  I guess the big move to adulthood is moving out of your parents basement sometime after you turn 30.


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#39 mashmaster

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 05:33 PM

I strongly can attest to your son's assessment of unscoutlike behavior at the 2017 Jamboree.  So many of my fellow crew members were stolen from.  Entire backpacks, chargers, patches, phones, shoes, anything.  My biggest problem was catcalling.  As a female venture scout, me and other females were constantly being catcalled and made uncomfortable.  A boy said he would enter the youth female changing tent while I was in there. I yelled at him (not a nice thing at all) from inside the tent and he ran away.  My friend was patch trading down in Charlie and decided not to make a trade.  Because of this she was called a "dumb whore".  I was throwing away trash and a scout tried to grab my attention yelling "Hey baby mama!" I decided to ignore it and keep walking.  But he ran in front of me, looked me up and down and said " Wassup baby mama!?"  I tried to address his behavior but he went away.  I wanted to talk to his scout master but lost him in the huge crowds.  I was also walking back from a show last night.  A boy approached my friend and told her. "Ma'am you dropped something." she looked at the ground confused.  He said "You dropped your standards, hi, I'm Issac."  Then less than a minute later a scout walked up behind me and sounded like a broken record saying "Romance, romance, I want a romance, romance, romance, I want a romance!" The entire time us venture scouts were treated like novelties that were there to be flirted with and embarrassed.  This made me lose a lot of respect for the BSA.  If it's ok to treat women like that with no consequences whatsoever, what kind of organization is it? 

I am so sorry you had to deal with this.  None of this is acceptable in any situation.  Sadly, as others have pointed out, they are mimicking bad behavior they have learned somewhere and think it is ok. 


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#40 Rick_in_CA

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 10:18 PM

I have no clue where this problem lies. Actually, that's not true. I do have a suspicion where it lies but it is not a popular one and will likely make me sound like the old Dana Carvey character on SNL, "Grumpy Old Man".
 
I think the problem lies with society. It lies with the video games kids play (and parents allow). It lies with the TV shows networks air and what passes for entertainment. It lies with instant gratification. It lies with the "trophies for everyone" mentality. It lies with the social media approach to news, information and narcissistic display of one-upsmanship we see every day. It lies with the lack of manners and respect for one's self and others. It lies with the slow eroding of family values and teaching of morals. That's not code for anything, it just simply means that most boys won't act like that when they have a solid, working father figure in their life that respects women. It means that when families eat together, instead of in front of the TV or at a fast food restaurant every night, their son can be taught respect for his mother, sister and female relatives. He can learn to honor them instead of objectifying them.

Actually I don’t think things are that much different now then they were 30, 40 or 50 years ago. There have always been a segment of our society that believe that women shouldn’t <insert here>, and that they are entitled to harass women that <insert here> anyway.

I think it may have been worse at jambo because of the anonymity of the whole thing, 40,000 people? And the scouts aren’t really with their troop mates, but with council contingents. It probably makes the bad apples feel freer to misbehave.

And the way I have heard some male scouters talk about girls and women in the BSA lately (about either female leaders, or the hypothetical female boy scouts) is rather derogatory to females. If these scouters talk this way in front of the scouts, they are communicating to the scouts that girls don’t belong in the BSA because they will “ruin it”. How do you think that effects the male scouts attitudes to female scouts?

Just look at the history of women trying to enter new career fields. The harassment and disrespect women got (and sometimes still get) for trying to be officer workers, engineers, construction workers, police officers, firemen, military officers, doctors, lawyers, etc.

I had a female coworker that was a former girl scout. She went camping and backpacking with her unit a lot (this was in the late 50s and early 60s). She talked about the terrible times her unit sometimes had when they had the misfortune of camping near a boy scout unit. Catcalls, stolen clothing, sand, itching powder and worse in their sleeping bags, etc (including one attempted gang rape - the fact that their girl scout leader had a revolver stopped things. She did remember units that were “perfect gentlemen” - she told a story of a boy scout troop that invited her troop over for dinner. They put out an amazing spread that made the girl scouts seriously rethink the definition of “camp cooking”). So I don’t think it’s really all that new.


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