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second class first class nights camping

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#41 qwazse

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 08:38 PM

Never settle! Our camp director asked us how we felt about him dropping cooking from the course schedule after the requirements changed. We nearly give the guy a standing ovation.
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#42 Back Pack

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 08:58 PM

It's hard when staff from multiple summer camps consistently make errors and show inconsistencies in MB requirements on blue cards every summer. So Back Pack, you've never questioned or disagreed with the completed/partial MB report for your boys at the end of summer camp?
 

 
Hmmm I'm hot sure how teaching a Scout to collect stamps is the same as serving in our Military, but ok...
 

 
LOL don't worry Back Pack, I do.  :)


You imply we shouldn't expect much from college age students. I pointed out the very same are fighting and dying for our liberties.

Point being that if they can fight for us the same age group can teach a class and sign a darn blue card properly. You just have to raise the bar.
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#43 Chadamus

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 09:14 PM

Agreed! Believe me, I don't want to question whether or not a Scout fulfilled a requirement, but sadly, that's the reality at times. I'll gladly help those summer camp directors hoist that bar if I can!


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#44 walk in the woods

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 06:36 AM

You imply we shouldn't expect much from college age students. I pointed out the very same are fighting and dying for our liberties.

Point being that if they can fight for us the same age group can teach a class and sign a darn blue card properly. You just have to raise the bar.

 

Instead of staff week we should have staff boot camp!  Three days bread and water for fraudulently signing off a blue card!  :)


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#45 RememberSchiff

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 06:55 AM

It does seem inconsistent that camp staff, either by camp policy or troop preference, commonly does not sign off on S-T-SC-FC requirements, their core competencies (I hope :confused: ) , while merit badge blue cards they do.  :blink:


Edited by RememberSchiff, 19 July 2017 - 07:00 AM.

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#46 qwazse

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 08:26 AM

It does seem inconsistent that camp staff, either by camp policy or troop preference, commonly does not sign off on S-T-SC-FC requirements, their core competencies (I hope :confused: ) , while merit badge blue cards they do.  :blink:

Technically, at our camp, each area director signs blue cards. The sum of every MB in that area should be the director's "competency."


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#47 mashmaster

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 12:07 PM

OK, funny/sad comment from a parent to me today.  "How dare you go against what camp is saying they did.  If you do this, you will lose scouts!"  My response was scouts should be able to demonstrate what they did or learned otherwise they really aren't prepared.  "But they will leave for another troop".  I said that was their prerogative and I'm happy to provide them the contact information for other troops in the area.....  This was from someone that wanted their son signed off on the 1000 foot climb for camping where the trail was 400 foot elevation gain.  What lesson are they teaching their son?


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#48 Col. Flagg

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 03:02 PM

OK, funny/sad comment from a parent to me today.  "How dare you go against what camp is saying they did.  If you do this, you will lose scouts!"  My response was scouts should be able to demonstrate what they did or learned otherwise they really aren't prepared.  "But they will leave for another troop".  I said that was their prerogative and I'm happy to provide them the contact information for other troops in the area.....  This was from someone that wanted their son signed off on the 1000 foot climb for camping where the trail was 400 foot elevation gain.  What lesson are they teaching their son?

 

That's why we go to CO, NM or NC for summer camp.  ;)

 

We've had a similar conversation in the past with folks. The worst reply I received was: "We live in Texas! How is a kid who misses summer camp supposed to get their Camping MB for Eagle!!!??" (The intent of the question was that 1000 ft and snow are hard to come by in Texas.

 

My replay was: "Do two of the other allowed sub-requirements such as a) take a bike trip of 15 miles or at least 4 hours, b) take a canoe trip for four hours or 5 miles, c) rappel down a route of 30 ft or more."

 

They finally understood.


Edited by Col. Flagg, 19 July 2017 - 03:03 PM.

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#49 mashmaster

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 03:27 PM

That's why we go to CO, NM or NC for summer camp.  ;)

 

We've had a similar conversation in the past with folks. The worst reply I received was: "We live in Texas! How is a kid who misses summer camp supposed to get their Camping MB for Eagle!!!??" (The intent of the question was that 1000 ft and snow are hard to come by in Texas.

 

My replay was: "Do two of the other allowed sub-requirements such as a) take a bike trip of 15 miles or at least 4 hours, b) take a canoe trip for four hours or 5 miles, c) rappel down a route of 30 ft or more."

 

They finally understood

I wish they would understand,  It was everything I could do to hold it together and not say something that couldn't be retracted....

 

Another fun one we had was a boy that earned his totin chip from camp without holding a knife or axe....  The parents weren't happy I said no, but seemed to be ok when I explained that their son can ask any of our older boys on the next campout to teach him properly.  I told them, it is better that way than us having to stitch him up.


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#50 qwazse

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 04:14 PM

... Another fun one we had was a boy that earned his totin chip from camp without holding a knife or axe....  The parents weren't happy I said no, but seemed to be ok when I explained that their son can ask any of our older boys on the next campout to teach him properly.  I told them, it is better that way than us having to stitch him up.

Why I'm not an SM:

He'll get it as soon as he learns

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to axe nicely.

:laugh:


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#51 MattR

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 05:42 PM

On this subject I've never had to deal with parents. If there was a problem I'd talk to the scout, ask him what he did, finally get to the point that parts were missed, and then I asked him what the right thing to do was. Even if they started off with "just let it go" it eventually got to "I guess I have to do it." When I promised to work with them on it they were usually happy about it. My guess is it never got to the parents.

 

Now, talking to parents about leadership positions that were stopped in the middle .... Most scouts are good about it. There were only a few over 12 years but man that left a bad taste.


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#52 TAHAWK

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Posted 20 July 2017 - 09:06 PM

1. The Scoutmaster decides who is allowed to pass a Scout on T-F requirements, not a Council employee - not ANY Council employee.

 

2. Since 2015, if  Scoutmaster decides a merit badge could not have been earned (E.g. Personal Management from zero to "completed" in five days), the Merit badge has not been earned.  Guide to Advancement at p. 52 (2017).

 

If your camp is an advancement mill, stop going there.


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#53 Back Pack

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 06:13 AM

What camp ISN'T an advancement mill? They all are. That's their purpose now.
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#54 TAHAWK

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:22 AM

What camp ISN'T an advancement mill? They all are. That's their purpose now.

A good many state on their home page: "Camp ___ is not a merit badge mill."

 

I have attended camps in six states in the last twenty year. including in four of the last six weeks.  All gave away at least some merit badges without individual testing as supposedly required.  But none were the camps with the disclaimers, so I have hopes - perhaps dreams.


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#55 RememberSchiff

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 08:46 AM

Some merit badge mills are touting themselves as "patrol method' camps in that patrols do their own patrol cooking.

 

Camp Bell in Griswold Scout Reservation (NH) once was a true patrol method camp. Not only did patrols plan and cook their own meals but planned their daily activities as well. MB classes were not offered., rather activity area. Sure a scout might get some rank, mb requirements but no completed blue card at end of the week.  Looking at the 2017 Leaders' Guide in appears to be moving  towards a mill. Hope I'm wrong.


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#56 TAHAWK

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 09:06 AM

As long as there are adult advancement addicts, there will be advancement pushers.


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#57 Col. Flagg

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 09:49 AM

A good many state on their home page: "Camp ___ is not a merit badge mill."

 

I have attended camps in six states in the last twenty year. including in four of the last six weeks.  All gave away at least some merit badges without individual testing as supposedly required.  But none were the camps with the disclaimers, so I have hopes - perhaps dreams.

 

Been to 16 different camps. All mills to some degree or another. It is a function of staffing the camps and having proper procedures in place to make sure they implement the 4 methods of advancement and use EDGE. If all camps did that I am sure troops would have fewer complaints regarding "mills".

 

Most recently:

  • Scout earned Cooking at camp. Cooked one meal.
  • Many Scouts earned Geology. Spent the whole week talking about Minecraft.
  • Scout earned Personal Mgmt...in one week. Asked the MBC how, he said he "compressed" the class.
  • Group of Scouts earned First Aid...being taught via PowerPoint slides...no hands on.
  • A group earned Astronomy at camp. Problem? I was cloudy EVERY night.
  • Cit in the Nation was given without confirming pre-reqs were done.

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#58 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 21 July 2017 - 10:33 AM

Unfortunately that is what many Scouters and parents want: merit badge mills.  I had a Scout take Swimming MB a 2nd time so that he could cool off in the middle of the day. One Scouter thought that was a waste of the Scout's time. I thought it was a good way to get wet. Although I admit, I wish he would have retaken Lifesaving MB instead so A) he could practice those skills and B) so I could try and drown him as his victim :)

 

I know of camps that give away Chess MB, which has ticked my son off to no end because He's done everything but teach another person to play. Hopefully he'll meet this requirement in December prior to the troop's chess tourney. Sadly he has to run it and cannot compete to keep his title

 

I also know that some Scouters are giving Scouts MBs that they got partials in. Unless they provide paperwork beforehand, when I do Indian Lore, I give out partials.  I saw one of the Scouts and followed up on it. He said the SM tol him he completed it at the MBU, which he didn't.

 

Regarding First Aid, sadly that is how it is taught via AHA. Minimal hands-on skills tested. Watching a 4+ hour movie.


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"Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt


#59 DadScouts

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 01:47 PM

As long as there are adult advancement addicts, there will be advancement pushers.

Never more a true statement written anywhere.

 

Went to an excellent camp this summer, as far as MBs go.  Strict (& low) limits on # of Scouts who could take each MB.  Leader guide had highest # of pre-reqs for MBs I have even seen.  The week went as expected on both fronts.

 

Saturday morning at the end of camp had a couple of missing MBs I needed to track down for my Scouts.  Every dept head and the camp manager were in a building ready for Troop leaders to come in and discuss.  I went right up to the camp manager, shook his hand, and thanked him and his staff because I had the highest # and % partial MBs of any camp I had attended in a dozen years.  The manager looked at me strangely, didn't say a word, and finally said "thank you very much; I don't get that said to me often and I wish leaders didn't complain all the time about the exact opposite."


Edited by DadScouts, 24 July 2017 - 01:49 PM.

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#60 qwazse

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 03:21 PM

Okay @DadScouts, name names. Some of these scouters will no doubt want the camp's brochure.

 

You might also want to consider drafting a thank you letter to that managers camp director, copy the SE, and have all the boys who earned partials sign the bottom with the by-line "Scouts proud to have good MBCs!"


Edited by qwazse, 24 July 2017 - 03:21 PM.

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