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second class first class nights camping

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#21 CalicoPenn

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 09:43 AM

Why is that an issue worth changing the whole program back for?

 

 

Just as an aside to the discussion - I find it rather interesting that there were no big discussions about National changing the requirements in the first place given how generally reluctant folks are at accepting changes by National in the first place.  I didn't see anyone asking if there was an issue worth changing the program for in the first place. 

 

(Col - not a reflection on you - your post was just very convenient for the observation).


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#22 CalicoPenn

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 09:46 AM

First class-first year should not be a goal.

 

I suspect that even if Troops are pushing First Class-First Year, 6 camping trips a year might be ambitious for some troops trying to provide a balanced program.


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#23 DuctTape

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 09:56 AM

I suspect that even if Troops are pushing First Class-First Year, 6 camping trips a year might be ambitious for some troops trying to provide a balanced program.


6 trips is one every other month. 6 nights is 3 trips from Fri-Sun. A troop which puts other limits on number or type of trips may introduce additional obstacles to, but that is their choice.
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#24 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 10:03 AM

My current troop:

January            Lock in, mostly because we get new Scouts in December/January.

Feburary          Camp

March              campStaff the Webeloree

April                 Council camporee Practice (required for points)

May                  Council Camporee

                         HA prep trip

June                  Camp

July                    Summer Camp

August               Camp

September         camp

October             District Camporee

November         Camp

December     Christmas party, if early enough and no conflicts camp


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#25 Col. Flagg

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 10:17 AM

Just as an aside to the discussion - I find it rather interesting that there were no big discussions about National changing the requirements in the first place given how generally reluctant folks are at accepting changes by National in the first place.  I didn't see anyone asking if there was an issue worth changing the program for in the first place. 

 

(Col - not a reflection on you - your post was just very convenient for the observation).

 

I suspect the lack of discussion around the increase in nights is because -- I suspect -- the majority of us would prefer more camping, not less. Truth be told, I'd like the "old, old" requirements that required even more camping.

 

My unit camps Jan-June (2 nights x 6 months), July summer camp (6 nights), August (HA usually 6-10 nights), Sept-Nov (2 nights x 3 months), Dec is a lock in. So without summer camp and HA that's 18 nights.

 

Not sure why units can't get any kid to FC in 12-14 months unless they simply are not camping.


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#26 NJCubScouter

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 12:03 PM

Just as an aside to the discussion - I find it rather interesting that there were no big discussions about National changing the requirements in the first place given how generally reluctant folks are at accepting changes by National in the first place.  I didn't see anyone asking if there was an issue worth changing the program for in the first place. 

 

I think there were so many changes made at the same time that the discussions got kind of "scattered" among the different changes. I recall raising concerns about a few of them, but not this one, which I thought was a good idea.  As for First Class First Year, I think that is mostly a relic of the past anyway.  When I see it expressed these days, it is usually a "softer" version along the lines of, a troop should have a program that gives Scouts the opportunity to make First Class within the first 12 to 18 months, as opposed to a "forced march" to make it in a year.  I don't think 18 months is unrealistic.  We have had kids make First Class in 6 months (not many) and kids make it in 2.5 years, and everywhere in between, so 18 months is right in the middle.


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#27 The Latin Scot

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 12:07 PM

I didn't realize there was a time limit on First Class. So it takes them 18 months to earn First Class. Why is that an issue worth changing the whole program back for?

 

I must be missing something here too? If LDS units no longer operate over 14 years old, is the push to get them Eagle before 14 now? What's the problem if kids make FC in 18 months. I have several guys that took 18 months to get FC. Several of those were the first to make Eagle from their peer group. I just don't see why we needed to reverse the requirements to allow making FC in one year for one particular group.

LDS units DO and WILL operate over 14 years old. The only change is that instead of automatically being registered into a varsity unit at 14 and then a Venturing crew at 16, now the boys simply continue to be registered in the Troop if they want to continue Scouting. LDS Scouts can stay in Scouting all the way until they are 18 if they want; they just won't be registered in a Church-sponsored Varsity or Venturing unit is all. People really need to understand this; there are a LOT of misconception being thrown around everywhere. 

 

But yes, we keep the 11-year olds separate from the boys 12 and up because of the way we divide our programs for youth. Children under the age of 12 fall under the Church's Primary program for children, so 11 year-old Scouts fall under a different overall program than the boys 12 and up, which fall under the Young Men's program. Because of the fundamental divide in how the Church runs it programs, 11 year-olds are still treated as children (which they are), so we don't like to throw to much camping on them at that age is all. At 12 we let them camp all we want. Some people do it younger, some wait till they are even older than that. But as a Church we do it at 12. 

 

Now, what the BSA chooses to do is its own choice, so let's not create all kinds of misguided or incorrect information about the Church's role in this when really, that isn't the case.


Edited by The Latin Scot, 12 July 2017 - 12:08 PM.

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There is no such word as "Webelo." 

The only proper singular of Webelos Scouts is ... WEBELOS SCOUT!  


#28 qwazse

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 12:36 PM

... We have had kids make First Class in 6 months (not many) and kids make it in 2.5 years, and everywhere in between, so 18 months is right in the middle.

LOL, NJ. You all are high speed! :wub:

 

We usually have a good cadre who take 3+years. Typically swimming in that 250 acre lake (even though we're only testing them in a 200 sq ft section of it) looms large for many of them, but it can be anything and usually it boils down to a lack of focus.

 

Needless to say, all of our guys have racked up dozens of nights camping and oodles of service hours ... to the point where I chide adults when they announce a project and add "counts for service hours." These boys don't care!

 

So, I am coming from a different point of view. Time outdoors is not what keeps our boys from ranking up, so in my frame of reference, it is a wasted stipulation to an already wordy requirement. I'd rather the requirement read:

 

Do 10 activities that you planned in advance with your troop or patrol during your regular meetings.


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#29 Col. Flagg

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 01:43 PM

Now, what the BSA chooses to do is its own choice, so let's not create all kinds of misguided or incorrect information about the Church's role in this when really, that isn't the case.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

I don't think we can assume away that this wasn't done for the LDS units either, given that they are the largest single CO group. What baffles me is why the "FC in 1 year" is such an issue. Big deal. Take 18 months. There is simply no reason to change back. 


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#30 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 03:52 PM

 What baffles me is why the "FC in 1 year" is such an issue. Big deal. Take 18 months. There is simply no reason to change back. 

 

Back in the 1980s, some research was done on why Scouts stay involved. One of the things the survey harped on was If a Scout gets First Class in the 12 Months, they tend to stay, Hence "OPERATION FIRST CLASS" as it was called in 1989. What the study didn't address was how active was the units these Scouts were in.

 

I hate to say it, but  IMHO "OPERATION FIRST CLASS" was one of the things that has led to the "One and Done" and "pencil whipping" that I see more and more of. 


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#31 NJCubScouter

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 04:17 PM

Back in the 1980s, some research was done on why Scouts stay involved. One of the things the survey harped on was If a Scout gets First Class in the 12 Months, they tend to stay, Hence "OPERATION FIRST CLASS" as it was called in 1989. What the study didn't address was how active was the units these Scouts were in.

 

I hate to say it, but  IMHO "OPERATION FIRST CLASS" was one of the things that has led to the "One and Done" and "pencil whipping" that I see more and more of. 

 

I think the problem was that the BSA was unable to tell the difference between a "cause" and an "effect."  Which is ok, a lot of people can't, but it does create an issue when you turn an entire program upside down because you drew an incorrect conclusion from the data.  They saw that there was a correlation between Scouts who made FC in 12 months and Scouts who stayed in Scouting (let's call those two things A and B), and they drew the conclusion that A caused B.  It probably didn't, and doesn't.  In all likelihood, C causes A and B, where C = A highly motivated and interested Scout, especially one in an active unit that follows the program.  In other words, if you have a highly motivated and interested Scout, in an active unit that follows the program, it is likely that that Scout will make First Class faster AND will stay in Scouting.  A forced-march through the ranks by a Scout who would rather move at a slower pace is not good for anybody.  We had a couple transfers in from a troop that took FCFY literally, 11 or barely-12 year olds who had been "advanced" to FC in a year, and I think it took all the fun out of it for them.  One of them quit within a year after transferring, the other one kind of moped along through Life and quit at around 16.

 

And then we had 3 kids who crossed over together, one made FC in 6 months, one in about 8 months and the other in about 9 months.  Nobody told them they had to.  They wanted to. (And ok, maybe they were in a friendly competition with each other, just a little.)  And they all made Eagle and were either SPL or ASPL, for whatever that's worth.


Edited by NJCubScouter, 12 July 2017 - 04:24 PM.

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#32 Stosh

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 05:05 PM

I had 6 boys in my Webelos den, they crossed over and stayed in their own patrol and encouraged each other throughout their careers.  The all Eagled in an adult led troop.  But, they were "My" boys and I worked hard at keeping their wishes to stay as a patrol and not have adults interfere with their scouting.  It was because of them I became a strong proponent of the NSP, regular and older boy patrols.


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#33 TAHAWK

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 05:10 PM

"Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature."  BSA 2017.

 

Overnight camping is just one example of the outdoor program, but what is replacing overnight camping to represent the use of outdoor programming?

 

Advancement is supposed to come naturally out of an outdoor-centered program, not be a program driver in and of itself.  Much less should advancement be a rationalization for reducing outdoor program.  Unless BSA is, sub silencio,  making [more] fundamental changes in Boy Scouting.


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#34 mashmaster

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 12:52 PM

The problem I have with the First Class in the first year is that, they go to camp and do the trail to Eagle program or whatever it is called and they start marking off requirements for being present and not actually doing it.  We check the boys after camp but I know most just say ok they get credit for it.  We had a boy get the swimming merit badge while having a broken arm and never getting into the water.  The camps are just mills....  And no he didn't get credit for the merit badge from us.


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#35 fred johnson

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 01:59 PM

Here's a rundown of an average year in my Troop growing up:

 

 

I always enjoy seeing what other units do.  We are similar, but try to target 10 weekend trips (2 nights), one summer camp (7 nights) and one adventure program a year.  We try to have one activity available per month, but that's 100% up to the scouts.  So it's pretty easy to get 25 nights camping a year and possible to get 33 or more nights a year.  


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#36 Eagledad

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 03:03 PM

The problem I have with the First Class in the first year is that, they go to camp and do the trail to Eagle program or whatever it is called and they start marking off requirements for being present and not actually doing it.  We check the boys after camp but I know most just say ok they get credit for it.  We had a boy get the swimming merit badge while having a broken arm and never getting into the water.  The camps are just mills....  And no he didn't get credit for the merit badge from us.

Over time we found this to be quite frustrating as well. We tried several camps and they all work about the same. So we asked the patrol leaders to kind-of retest the scouts to get a book sign off. I know that is a big taboo on the forum, but it helped our program by shifting the integrity of the skills onto to us. We also don't push advancement at summer camp, we push fun. The new scouts still take some of the skills classes, but don't feel pushed to earn rank by the end of the week. Our program typically provides skills sessions on most campouts all year long for any scouts who request, so there is no do or die expectation needed at summer camp or MB fairs. Also, along with a couple badges like swimming and camping, we ask scouts pick jsut plain fun MBs. And we find that new scouts typically add a couple of easy fun badges during the week as they find their schedule will allow.

 

Summer camp for the adults is more about patrol method than advancement. Summer camp is typically the first time boys are given the independence to make choices and to learn by those choices for several days at a time. I've told the story before about the new scout who skipped all his classes for stuff that was more fun like swimming, biking, and so on. No big deal to us, but his mom volunteered next year to go to camp and make sure all new scouts went to all their classes and come back with some kind of rank advancement. She was not happy that her son, who Eagle two years later, was behind most of his friends in advancement. She was kindly asked to stay home. LoL

 

Barry


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#37 Col. Flagg

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 05:22 PM

The problem I have with the First Class in the first year is that, they go to camp and do the trail to Eagle program or whatever it is called and they start marking off requirements for being present and not actually doing it.  We check the boys after camp but I know most just say ok they get credit for it.  We had a boy get the swimming merit badge while having a broken arm and never getting into the water.  The camps are just mills....  And no he didn't get credit for the merit badge from us.

 

We actually don't allow books to be signed by camp staff. Our Instructors hold a session at the end of the day where the first year Scouts demonstrate what they learned. If they know it, book gets signed. If they don't, it is re-taught until they can demonstrate it (EDGE) then book gets signed.

 

Re/ MBs signed but not earned, there's a section in the GTA for that and we use it. If you could not possibly have done the requirements we don't award it. Case in point, I was told by a Scout last night that he got Cooking done at camp. Impossible!!! Yet he has a signed blue card.


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#38 Chadamus

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 06:44 PM

Wow. That trumps the one we saw this summer where a boy attend one day of Engineering yet completed all the MB requirements.

We remind ourselves not to expect blue card perfection from college age volunteers.
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#39 Back Pack

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 07:49 PM

We remind ourselves not to expect blue card perfection from college age volunteers.


We don't expect college students to be able to effectively teach something they're being hired to teach AND do the proper paperwork!?!?!

I think you sell college students short. Should we take away any weapons from 18-22 year olds serving overseas?

That type of thinking is what's wrong with society. Expect more from people, not less.
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#40 Chadamus

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 08:38 PM

We don't expect college students to be able to effectively teach something they're being hired to teach AND do the proper paperwork!?!?!
 

 

It's hard when staff from multiple summer camps consistently make errors and show inconsistencies in MB requirements on blue cards every summer. So Back Pack, you've never questioned or disagreed with the completed/partial MB report for your boys at the end of summer camp?

 

I think you sell college students short. Should we take away any weapons from 18-22 year olds serving overseas?

 

Hmmm I'm hot sure how teaching a Scout to collect stamps is the same as serving in our Military, but ok...

 

That type of thinking is what's wrong with society. Expect more from people, not less.

 

LOL don't worry Back Pack, I do.  :)


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