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More Advancement Revisions...

second class first class nights camping

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#1 Col. Flagg

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 03:33 PM

So...it appears the nights camping for SC and FC will change...again...back to what it was. According to this article the change will take place on 8/1/17. 

 

Stay tuned. More changes sure to come tomorrow if the last two days are any indication. :rolleyes:


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#2 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 04:26 PM

I liked when they upped the number of campouts. But I know LDS units complained since none of their 11 year old Scouts can get First Class under the 2016 changes.


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#3 Col. Flagg

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 04:38 PM

I liked when they upped the number of campouts. But I know LDS units complained since none of their 11 year old Scouts can get First Class under the 2016 changes.

 

Why?


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#4 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 05:21 PM

Why I liked the more camping or why LDS units complained?

 

I liked more camping for a variety of reasons. One is that IMHO the more they camp, the better they master the skills. Yes in my day only 2 camp outs were required to earn Camping Skill Award, and hence First Class. But the 2 months between Scout and Tenderfoot, Tenderfoot and Second Class, and Second Class and First, gave time for Scouts to master those outdoor skills. At least in the troops I've been involved with, that 5 to 6 camp outs and/or summer camp.

 

As to why LDS units cannot have 11 year old First Class Scouts under the January 2016- today requirements, LDS units segregate their 11 year olds into a separate patrol and they are limited to a maximum of 3 camping nights.


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#5 qwazse

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:37 PM

I'm no fan of bean counting.
Although I do want youth to get it into their heads that this is an outdoor program, I'd rather focus on mastery than marking time.
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#6 Back Pack

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 09:11 PM

So bsa makes the change back to avoid losing more lds kids? Great. They'll leave anyway in three years so why water down the program?
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#7 Stosh

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 09:32 PM

I'm no fan of bean counting.
Although I do want youth to get it into their heads that this is an outdoor program, I'd rather focus on mastery than marking time.

 

Sorry, qwazse, you just don't get it.  Mastery of outdoor skills in the classroom setting, an environment more conducive to the style of education they are used to, verses going out and mastering the skills in the environment in which they are supposed to be used.  I have boys that are masters of tying up chairs, door knobs, and water faucets and yet they can't tie down a tent or put op a dining fly.  That opportunity has to wait until all the chairs, door knobs and faucets are mastered first.  Is it any wonder why boys have a tendency to tie other scouts to trees?  It's the only thing they know how to do.


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#8 The Latin Scot

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 11:04 PM

So bsa makes the change back to avoid losing more lds kids? Great. They'll leave anyway in three years so why water down the program?

 

I wouldn't suggest promoting rumors that have no basis in fact. As a devout Latter-day Saint who keeps a close watch on the Church's policies and directions, I can assure you there has been no hint nor rumor nor suggestion that the Church has any plans to leave the Cub Scouting or Boy Scouting programs anytime soon. Furthermore, this isn't watering down the program, but restoring it to what it was before because of numbers that were affected by the change in the first place. Simply because you choose to cast it in a negative light does not actually make it a bad thing. By your logic, the change somehow, suddenly produced better Scouts, and now the BSA wants to make them worse again by going back to the ways things were not two years ago. I can hardly imagine that being so. 


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#9 RememberSchiff

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 03:43 AM

I think National realizes that scouts and their units are camping less for multiple reasons. The traditional weekend, two-night campout is devolving into the Saturday overnighter.  I suspect, Camping MB requirements will change, maybe count summer camp more say up to two weeks (two summers).

 

My $0.02,


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#10 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 05:09 AM

One of the guys on the 411 committee on Facebook said it best. That committee spent 4+ years working on the requirements to improve them and make them more  "outing." They used their own experiences and non-Boy Scout experts to create them. They had beta units testing for 2+ years.  And they were told no changes to their recommendations would be made for 3 years after implementation to see how they really work. Somewhere I read 3 years is the true mark of success or failure since First year is implementation, and second year is tweaking implementation. Third year is true test.

 

Thsi change is not tweaking.


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#11 qwazse

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 05:20 AM

Sorry, qwazse, you just don't get it. Mastery of outdoor skills in the classroom setting, an environment more conducive to the style of education they are used to, verses going out and mastering the skills in the environment in which they are supposed to be used. I have boys that are masters of tying up chairs, door knobs, and water faucets and yet they can't tie down a tent or put op a dining fly. That opportunity has to wait until all the chairs, door knobs and faucets are mastered first. Is it any wonder why boys have a tendency to tie other scouts to trees? It's the only thing they know how to do.

No @Stosh, you don't get it. I don't need a scout mark time to know if a scout has mastered skills. I need him to set up a tent and sleep in it, to make a full set of hearty meals for his patrol, to navigate well, to recite the pledge, the anthem, his rights/responsibilities, and help another boy or two along the way. It may take 3 nights in the woods with my troop, it may take thirty -- depending on how little.he camps with his youth group, family, or folks outside of scouting and devotes time to practicing those skills. But I don't need BSA telling me that X of ten of his activities with the troop need to be overnight camping.
For a given boy and his patrol, they might need to be visits (in uniform) to the county seat, a nature society, barn raisings, first aid meets, and emergency prep drills. The list may be as diverse as the number scouts times ten.

Edited by qwazse, 12 July 2017 - 05:22 AM.

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#12 Back Pack

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 05:43 AM

So what exactly prevents lds Scouts from meeting the new camping requirements? No one has offered a reason why.
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#13 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 05:56 AM

11 year olds in LDS troops cannot camp more than 3 times a year. With the january 1, 2016 to yesterday requirements, they could not earn First Class in a year.


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#14 Stosh

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 06:19 AM

No @Stosh, you don't get it. I don't need a scout mark time to know if a scout has mastered skills. I need him to set up a tent and sleep in it, to make a full set of hearty meals for his patrol, to navigate well, to recite the pledge, the anthem, his rights/responsibilities, and help another boy or two along the way. It may take 3 nights in the woods with my troop, it may take thirty -- depending on how little.he camps with his youth group, family, or folks outside of scouting and devotes time to practicing those skills. But I don't need BSA telling me that X of ten of his activities with the troop need to be overnight camping.
For a given boy and his patrol, they might need to be visits (in uniform) to the county seat, a nature society, barn raisings, first aid meets, and emergency prep drills. The list may be as diverse as the number scouts times ten.

 

I gotta do better with my sarcasm.  Spending week after week teaching boys to tie up chairs is really stupid.  They need to be out in the woods tying those knots on tents.  "Mr. Stosh, did I tie that knot correctly?"   "I dunno, let's wait until the next thunderstorm hits and we'll see how wet you'll get."  As I mentioned before, at summer camp the boys used the wooden line tighteners that have the two holes in them.  All the boys' tents went down in a thunderstorm and soaked everything they had.  The leaders' tents were all still standing.  After a quick lesson on doing it right, all the boys could then do double half-hitches and taunt-line hitches in their sleep.  There's no way to teach that except at a campout.  After that they paid more attention to the other requirements as well.


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Stosh

 

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#15 blw2

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 06:22 AM

I agree that the hands on is good.  get these boys out of the building!!!

 

but my question is this, what do you think will happen...an insert page to put in the book?

   are the scouts supposed to line out the requirement in the book and pencil in what it is now?


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#16 DuctTape

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 06:53 AM

changing requirements does little to change a poor program into a better one, and a quality program will still be a quality program. As long as bsa, councils, troops focus on requirements and advancement almost exclusively little will change to improve program. IMO the best, and only way to improve the program is to focus on fun and adventure. If this is the focus, the program will improve and advancement (as a secondary interest) will take care of itself. My suggestion to bsa is to stop playing with requirements and focus on how to help councils and troops create a fun, adventure filled program which is truly boy led using the patrol method. Pencil whipping occurs when the goal is paper and pencil.
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#17 CalicoPenn

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 08:42 AM

Here's a rundown of an average year in my Troop growing up:

 

January - Klondike Derby - outdoors but not camping

February - Cabin Campout - though overnighting inside, activities take place outside - no camping

March - First Aid Meet - not camping

April - Galena Grant Encampment - 1st camping overnight

May - Camporee - 2nd camping overnight

June - Canoe Trip - day trip - no camping

July - Summer Camp - 3rd camping overnight - using pre-set tents - doesn't meet the "in shelter you set up" requirement

August - Service Project - help sponsor with corn roast - no camping (our unit considered this a rest month from Summer Camp - we camped for two consecutive weeks at summer camp)

September - Camporee - 4th camping overnight

October - Troop campout - 5th camping overnight

November - Brown County Biking & Hiking - stayed in lodge - no camping

December - day hike - no camping

 

I'm biased but that's a pretty decent set of activities for a Troop.  It just doesn't meet the 6 camping trip requirements - it only meets 4 of them (because the Scouts aren't setting up tents for summer camp).  And keep in mind, its trip, not nights because ironically, this schedule does give a Scout 13-15 nights towards their camping merit badge requirement depending on if you count a week of summer camp as 5, 6, or 7 nights (our Troop camped for two consecutive weeks - we used 7 nights as a week).  It does meet the 10 activities, 6 outdoors, 3 camping and setting up tent requirements.  A Patrol might go camping on their own a couple of times but even back then, patrol overnight camping trips were fairly rare. 

 

If the goal is First Class/First Year, then 6 camping trips a year might be difficult for an averagely active unit that provides a variety of activities. 

Could some of these activities be turned to overnights?  Sure - in theory - until it meets the reality of wives telling their husbands that they need to spend time with the rest of the family. 

 

I thought it was a mistake to have changed the outing requirements to the "new old" ones in the first place - it seemed to me that the advancement folks were narrowing their definition of "outing" to camping - I, for one, am glad that they've recognized that outing is a lot more than camping - and that they recognized it sooner than later.


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#18 Col. Flagg

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 09:21 AM

11 year olds in LDS troops cannot camp more than 3 times a year. With the january 1, 2016 to yesterday requirements, they could not earn First Class in a year.

 

I didn't realize there was a time limit on First Class. So it takes them 18 months to earn First Class. Why is that an issue worth changing the whole program back for?

 

I must be missing something here too? If LDS units no longer operate over 14 years old, is the push to get them Eagle before 14 now? What's the problem if kids make FC in 18 months. I have several guys that took 18 months to get FC. Several of those were the first to make Eagle from their peer group. I just don't see why we needed to reverse the requirements to allow making FC in one year for one particular group.


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#19 qwazse

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 09:25 AM

Flagg, I could be wrong, but I think this one is as much about scouters in general feeling micromanaged as it is about LDS being bent out of shape that its 11 year olds can only advance to 2nd class.

 

...  All the boys' tents went down in a thunderstorm and soaked everything they had.  The leaders' tents were all still standing.  After a quick lesson on doing it right, all the boys could then do double half-hitches and taunt-line hitches in their sleep.  There's no way to teach that except at a campout.  After that they paid more attention to the other requirements as well. ...

 

I'm told that some scouts can go for 6 camping nights without ever their knots being proven in a storm. Never seen it happen, because any scouts I know wind up camping with me. :p


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#20 DuctTape

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 09:28 AM

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First class-first year should not be a goal. That only encourages pencil whipping and focuses exclusively on advancement. I subscribe to GBB, "When you go hiking and camping the subjects contained in the requirements come up all the time. With plenty of Scouting work before them your boys simply cannot help advancing." Focus on scouting adventures, and the advancement will occur as a result.
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