Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

New Eagle Palm Policy, August 2017

eagle palms

  • Please log in to reply
161 replies to this topic

#21 Col. Flagg

Col. Flagg

    Robert E. Lee - Patriot

  • Members
  • 1415 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 01:13 PM

Yes, but "completing" those palms (the "pre-Eagle" palms) will only involve earning 5 "extra" MB's per palm. No additional "active" requirement, no SM conference or anything else.
 

Well, it isn't just guys "who make Eagle and don't have any palms completed." Under the new rule a Scout could have BOTH pre-Eagle and post-Eagle palms, or only pre-Eagle, or only post-Eagle. The post-Eagle palms will still require the 3 months for each one, and the "active" requirement will no longer be limited to the troop and patrol, but can be satisfied by any BSA activity. The examples they give are OA, Venturing, serving on camp staff or NYLT or NAYLE staff.

And there will be no more BOR's for any palm. I don't think that is a great loss. I have participated in several of those and they are really just formalities.

 

Yes, but the point being that a guy who had 5 palms done before Eagle no longer has to stick around to earn them with additional leadership and activity. Just pop in your quarter and get Eagle + 5 palms. Ludicrous!


  • 1

#22 Stosh

Stosh

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 12466 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 01:14 PM

Col. Flagg  Okay, I'll bite.

 

How about this scenario?

 

Disconnect the palms from rank advancement.  They really aren't rank anyway.

 

A boy joins up at 11 years of age and starts rank and MB processes.

 

Here's the next step: AFTER he has attained all of his Eagle required MB's the clock starts running. 

 

At this point he is doing both Rank and MB records. 

 

Let's say he's reached the rank of TF at 13 years of age (some scouts already have Eagle by then.) Assume also he has his 21 Eagle required MB's done.  No last minute panic at age 17.  So he puts in his 4 months of POR/Leadership for Star and has an extra 5 MB's.  So he puts in 3 more months of POR/Leadership at TF and gains palm #1.  Another 3 months of POR/Leadership and 5 more MB's   for palm #2.  Now he's 14, Star Scout with 2 palms.

 

He puts in 6 months POR/Leadership for Life.  Remember all his Eagle required have been done.  So he continues on with 3 months POR/Leadership and another 5 MB's for palm #3, does it again for Palm #4.  He's now 15 Life scout with 4 palms.

 

He puts in his 6 months POR/Leadership for Eagle and has his ECOH at age 15.5.  Every three months and 5 MB's he adds for another palm.  He has two years and can earn 8 more palms easily with an additional 40 MB's providing he does continue POR/Leadership along the way.

 

Every palm could have just a SMC to check on his involvement and encourage him in his Scouting journey.

 

I have no idea why BSA allows only 4 months Star, 6 months Life, and 6 months Eagle for POR/Leadership when with the palm track, he could do continual POR/Leadership throughout his scouting career for credit.

 

We've had the discussion for the boy getting saddled with 12 month POR requirements for SPL, DC National award, etc. and basically either dropping DC or being penalized for dropping out of SPL before his "term" is up.  Those kinds of things are unacceptable.  The boy does the work, he should get the credit.  During a 1 year "term" as SPL, the boy should be able to gain credit for a rank advancement or two or a rank advancement and 2 palms with 10 MB's.

 

Sitting around waiting to get an Eagle rank while accumulating MB's of no value towards palms is a real buzz kill for the go-getter Scout.


Edited by Stosh, 10 July 2017 - 01:18 PM.

  • 1

#23 Col. Flagg

Col. Flagg

    Robert E. Lee - Patriot

  • Members
  • 1415 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 01:18 PM

@Stosh, you just described many kids I know who had 3-5 palms prior to this silly change. They maybe got 1 or 2 palms before 18, but were fully engaged in Scouting and a ton of other stuff.

 

After 8/1/17 such Scouts get all their palms at once. What message does that send to the guys who got palms before? They had to EARN them with activity AND leadership. This new approach gives the palms away and cheapens them even further.

 

I'm fine with the change, let's just put that (*) next to their palms so folks know how they were "earned".  :rolleyes:


  • 1

#24 DadScouts

DadScouts

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 72 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 01:34 PM

@Stosh

 

After 8/1/17 such Scouts get all their palms at once. What message does that send to the guys who got palms before? They had to EARN them with activity AND leadership. This new approach gives the palms away and cheapens them even further.

 

I'm fine with the change, let's just put that (*) next to their palms so folks know how they were "earned".  :rolleyes:

Agree 100%.  Call them Merit Badge Palms instead of Eagle Palms because that is exactly what these new things are.  MB Palms would be held in the proper esteem as accomplishments like, well that international revered award, The World Conservation Award, aka the PPP (the Purple Panda Patch).  


  • 1

#25 krikkitbot

krikkitbot

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 177 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 01:51 PM

In my troop I see palms as almost a rubber stamp. The kids who have eagled and want palms but are not engaged, show up have a BOR and get their palm. They are not working towards any additional MBs other that the ones they had already completed before getting to Eagle. 

On the other hand, I see a few Eagles who don't care about palms but are there every week still providing leadership. The SM will usually arrange a BOR for them and tell them to go sit for it. It comes as a surprise to them that they are up for a palm. 

 

I like the second group better because they are still engaged. They got their eagle and now it's about giving back. I don't think that we would lose this group even if they got all of their hardware at once. 

 

Even amongst eagles you have some that are true leaders and some for whom the rank was a checkmark on their (parents') agendas. 


  • 1

#26 Stosh

Stosh

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 12466 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:09 PM

@Stosh, you just described many kids I know who had 3-5 palms prior to this silly change. They maybe got 1 or 2 palms before 18, but were fully engaged in Scouting and a ton of other stuff.

 

After 8/1/17 such Scouts get all their palms at once. What message does that send to the guys who got palms before? They had to EARN them with activity AND leadership. This new approach gives the palms away and cheapens them even further.

 

I'm fine with the change, let's just put that (*) next to their palms so folks know how they were "earned".  :rolleyes:

 

I agree, they really don't earn those extra palms for doing anything other than showing up for an ECOH.  Maybe they did extra POR/Leadership, maybe they didn't.  With the new system there's no way of telling.  That I why I would prefer disengaging the palms from the Eagle rank and have them as MB credit with POR/Leadership attached once they have earned all 21 of their Eagle required MB's.  Okay, at age 13 one has all 21 ER MB's earned.  Now he can start his palms and as long as he doesn't double dip on his rank POR/Leadership, he can earn palms up until he's 18 regardless of rank.  Palms aren't rank anyway, they should not be counted as such.

 

In all my years in scouting in my neighborhood, I only know of one Eagle scout that earned palms and he was one of my ASM's.  Never saw a boy awarded a palm, not even though they had well over 21 MB's.  The majority of boys are last minute Eagles who have done great things for the troop and got no credit for it.


  • 0

#27 Col. Flagg

Col. Flagg

    Robert E. Lee - Patriot

  • Members
  • 1415 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:25 PM

That I why I would prefer disengaging the palms from the Eagle rank and have them as MB credit with POR/Leadership attached once they have earned all 21 of their Eagle required MB's.

 

On this we agree. Get rid of them related to Eagle and simply move them to "extra award" category @DadScouts suggests. Removing the old requirements literally removes them from anything having to do with Eagle or leadership for those palms earned before Eagle.

 

OR, simply not allow anyone to earn EAGLE palms until they ARE Eagle. Star palms, anyone? ;)


  • 0

#28 Chisos

Chisos

    Member

  • Members
  • 146 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:27 PM

Hmmm, didn't see that one coming.

 

I wish they'd of at least left some post-Eagle time in...maybe 3-6 months after Eagle you can get however many palms for your current MB total, then another every three months after that.   I don't think this change will really change much though.  Those what want to stick around post Eagle will, and those that won't, won't.


  • 0

#29 Stosh

Stosh

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 12466 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:49 PM

On this we agree. Get rid of them related to Eagle and simply move them to "extra award" category @DadScouts suggests. Removing the old requirements literally removes them from anything having to do with Eagle or leadership for those palms earned before Eagle.

 

OR, simply not allow anyone to earn EAGLE palms until they ARE Eagle. Star palms, anyone? ;)

 

An Eagle with no palms indicate that the boy did just enough to get Eagle.  If he were to earn MB palms along the way, it would show that he did more than just the minimum, too.


  • 1

#30 NJCubScouter

NJCubScouter

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 6315 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 03:27 PM

An Eagle with no palms indicate that the boy did just enough to get Eagle.


Only with regard to one requirement, the merit badge requirement. There are other requirements for Eagle, in which the Scout could have done far more than the minimum.

Comments about "doing just enough" remind me of the old joke:

Q. What do you call someone who graduated last in his class in medical school?

A. "Doctor"
  • 2

#31 Stosh

Stosh

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 12466 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 03:41 PM

That may be true, but the boy that goes above and beyond gets no more recognition than the boy who needs a check mark on their college application.

 

And as a note to your comment, half the doctors out there graduated in the lower half of their class, too.  I have three children and their spouses that hold Dr. as their title.

 

I just think that a boy who puts in the extra effort should get some sort of recognition for it. 


  • 0

#32 desertrat77

desertrat77

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2260 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 03:44 PM

Only with regard to one requirement, the merit badge requirement. There are other requirements for Eagle, in which the Scout could have done far more than the minimum.

Comments about "doing just enough" remind me of the old joke:

Q. What do you call someone who graduated last in his class in medical school?

A. "Doctor"

 

I agree. 

 

Searching my fading memory, I can't recall any discussion back in the day about palms, other than an occasional "did you know" trivia-style comment about their existence. 

 

Can't remember any opinion among Eagles about palms, pro or con.  

 

If I had to sum it up, it seems the Eagles that stuck with the program enjoyed not being on the advancement tread-mill, and were happy to focus on other matters, like camping, helping others progress, and getting ready for life after high school.

 

Today, it's my impression that many scouts earn Eagle at the last minute, and palms are the last thing they are worried about. 


Edited by desertrat77, 10 July 2017 - 03:46 PM.

  • 0

#33 DuctTape

DuctTape

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 604 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 06:48 PM

pre-eagle palm makes no sense to me. the mbs are their own recognition. an award for an extra arbitrary number does not compute; just say Eagle and 5 extra mbs. A palm is an award beyond Eagle. Just as eagle is an award beyond life, and star. J7st like those earlier awards (now ranks) one could earn extra mbs for later awards, those weren't the only requirement for the next award (rank) and thus one could not receive them concurrently. one had to also complete the "as a star scout..." requirements. I fear we have slid even further down the slippery slope allowing rank requirements to become just a checklist and diminishing the other aspects more and more.

In the early ranks it has been a significant detriment to the program in many areas because allowing a scout to do requirements for any rank at any time, waters down the learning by decreasing the opportunities for growth in a progression of small steps with increasing difficulty and rigor.

/offmysoapbox
  • 1

#34 Stosh

Stosh

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 12466 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 07:47 PM

I guess I'm the only one that views palms NOT as ranks above Eagle.  Otherwise, an Eagle with two palms would be better than a scout with just an Eagle.  I've never viewed it as such and I don't like the palms as part of any rank advancement.  Eagle is the highest rank, not Eagle with palms.


  • 0

#35 oldbuzzard

oldbuzzard

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 8 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 08:54 PM

I have a different objection than any I've seen here. 

 

The insta-palm thing bothers me not at all. I think the non-eagle required merit badges are sufficiently weak and inconsistent that they should be entirely interest not reward driven. Having a young Eagle going to a monthly MBU to get 5 MBs in 3 month to meet the palm schedule sounds misguided. 

 

My objection is getting rid of the BOR requirement. I don't think you need a strict 3mo BOR for each palm but I think requiring a periodic BOR is still worthwhile. Why not require a BOR within the last 6 months for any palm. BORs are clearly stated to be needed periodically, not just for advancement. Without a requirement is that likely to happen.

 

BORs are useful to keep kids interested. I know a couple of Eagles through my homeschooling circles who earned all the merit badges. They were exemplary scouts.... camping, camping staff, OA, troop involvement, ROTC/service academies,etc, etc... but how common is that...Beyond/instead of palms I would want BORs to point kids towards more holistic meaningful awards such as Hornady Badge/Medal, National Outdoor Medal, Congressional Gold Award, Venturing awards, or outside activities, Eagle should be a gateway to doing bigger stuff within and without scouts and that should be the personal growth focus after Eagle.

 

With that in mind, I think Girl Scout Gold Award, Congressional Gold, Duke of Edinburgh, National Outdoor Medal, Venturing, Ranger,etc etc... should have adult square knots just like Eagle and Hornady, Kids asking what that is for should have the full scope of scouting and affiliated awards available for inspiration.


  • 1

#36 Stosh

Stosh

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 12466 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 09:03 PM

Acquiring meaningless palms isn't the problem, watered down MB's are.  Why in the world is Fingerprinting a MB?  Shouldn't there be a revamp of the MB program so that the MB's actually mean something.  It would bring value to the palms regardless of how they are awarded.


  • 0

#37 DuctTape

DuctTape

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 604 posts

Posted 10 July 2017 - 09:23 PM

I do not view palms as ranks above eagle. But then I also do not see eagle as a rank either. I see them as awards, like they used to be. The awards are recognition of a set of requirements achieved beyond the ranks. After first class, the awards signify more in depth knowledge, experience and service and differentiate from rank because the skill and knowledge base is determined mostly by the scouts chosen paths of interest in their merit badge selection. At least until all 21 of the mbs are from the required list.
  • 0

#38 John-in-KC

John-in-KC

    Moderator and nice guy

  • Moderators
  • 6825 posts

Posted 11 July 2017 - 06:28 AM

Just a moderator note:

A Scouter is Courteous.
  • 2

#39 gumbymaster

gumbymaster

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 304 posts

Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:15 AM

When my son earned his karate black belt, he had reached his goal, but he decided to stay in the program until he completed his first degree.  He wanted to demonstrate that he was in it for more than just that initial goal.  Most people, when you say black belt, don't really care or understand about what goes into degrees after that.

 

I kind of look at the (old method) eagle palms like that.  If I saw someone with Eagle palms, I knew that they didn't just get their Eagle and immediately leave.  They stuck around and presumably gave back to their unit.  With the new method, I wouldn't be sure - I guess I'll just have to talk to them. :)

 

In all seriousness, I do like that it rewards scouts who really did more than the minimum, and we've had that discussion on this forum before.  Even if they were a late bloomer and didn't get the Eagle until close to their 18th, they are recognized for the additional work they did.  What I don't like is that it reduces the motivation to stay in the unit and continue to contribute.

 

Either way, that's the policy, and that's what we'll do.


  • 0

#40 Stosh

Stosh

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 12466 posts

Posted 11 July 2017 - 08:46 AM

I like the analogy of the karate system.  With palms, however, the credit comes AFTER the Eagle regardless of what he did BEFORE he attained rank.  A scout may have aged out at 18 with Eagle at the last minute, but what about the 2-3 years prior that he did stay in scouting and continued to work on progress throughout that time.  He gets no credit for that.  Yes, the after palms keeps boys going for more bling after Eagle at an earlier age, but those that use their whole scouting career to work with the troop and Eagle at the last minute receive no recognition.  I wish there were a way of indicating that and although the system can be abused by the early Eaglers, it does shows the extra work the boy put in prior to Eagle rank. 

 

It's kind of a shame to penalize the dedicated Eagles who put in the effort when abuse on the front end of pencil whipping S->FC is just as questionable.


Edited by Stosh, 11 July 2017 - 08:46 AM.

  • 1




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users