Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

Rejected Adult Application


  • Please log in to reply
34 replies to this topic

#1 Ranman328

Ranman328

    Member

  • Members
  • 54 posts

Posted 25 June 2017 - 03:49 PM

Does anyone know what the policy is in BSA for a rejected application? A Charter Organization has rejected an Adult Leader Application for an Assistant Scoutmaster position. No paperwork went forward to District for processing so they have the application which contains the Applicants Personal Identifying Information (PII, SSN, Address, Phone, Drivers License Number, email, etc.). They also have the applicants medical forms that have his Insurance information to include medical info. The applicant has requested that the forms be returned to him as they contain this sensitive information. The Charter Organization to date has not responded or returned his forms. Does BSA have a policy on this? Seems like a valid request to me.
  • 0

#2 qwazse

qwazse

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6841 posts

Posted 25 June 2017 - 06:22 PM

A policy for when paperwork flows don't proceed as usual?
I doubt it.
Keep calling the CO and COR, until you get a response.
  • 0

#3 Stosh

Stosh

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 12466 posts

Posted 25 June 2017 - 06:29 PM

A CO can eject an application for any reason it so desires.  It is under no obligation to the BSA.  A little common courtesy would be in line here, however.  An explanation would be appropriate as well as a wee bit of honesty.  Unfortunately, a CO does not need to adhere to the BSA's Oath and Law, only provide a venue for the BSA program.

 

It might go better of the SM and CC were to chase down the paperwork and explanation. 

 

Good luck with that.  It would seem that in this day and age, common sense and common courtesy isn't as common as one would assume.


  • 0

#4 Ranman328

Ranman328

    Member

  • Members
  • 54 posts

Posted 25 June 2017 - 06:35 PM

They have already contacted the COR and CO three times. All started by having the SM and CC contact them. No big deal about being rejected but they are concerned about the PII floating around out there. They carry the highest level Security Clearance for their job and know how important this information is. I am trying to assist so it doesn't go legal.
  • 0

#5 Stosh

Stosh

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 12466 posts

Posted 25 June 2017 - 06:38 PM

Let it go legal.  That legalese letterhead will definitely catch their attention and they won't assume this request will just go away over time.

 

By the way, how does one hold high security clearance for a job and get rejected as an ASM for a scout troop?  That's gotta be some strange politickin' going on there.


Edited by Stosh, 25 June 2017 - 06:39 PM.

  • 2

#6 desertrat77

desertrat77

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2260 posts

Posted 25 June 2017 - 07:29 PM

Let it go legal.  That legalese letterhead will definitely catch their attention and they won't assume this request will just go away over time.

 

By the way, how does one hold high security clearance for a job and get rejected as an ASM for a scout troop?  That's gotta be some strange politickin' going on there.

 

Agreed.


  • 1

#7 Back Pack

Back Pack

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 691 posts

Posted 25 June 2017 - 08:41 PM

Having these forms at a CO won't jeopardize their security clearance anymore than it would at a BSA office or in the car of a DE. That's a red herring. Courtesy is to give it back but it won't cause them to lose clearance.

As for holding clearance and yet being rejected, I've seen active duty personnel be rejected before. Some because they served in the box and the COis afraid of PTSD or some junk like that.

Edited by Back Pack, 25 June 2017 - 08:43 PM.

  • 1

#8 CalicoPenn

CalicoPenn

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3179 posts

Posted 26 June 2017 - 07:49 AM

Having these forms at a CO won't jeopardize their security clearance anymore than it would at a BSA office or in the car of a DE. That's a red herring. Courtesy is to give it back but it won't cause them to lose clearance.
 

 

I don't think this is about the applicant worrying about losing his clearance - it's about people that no longer need it keeping his personal information.

 

I concur on letting it go legal.  If he's that concerned, throwing his attorney a hundred bucks to put together a letter demanding the return of the application by a certain date should be worth it.


Edited by CalicoPenn, 26 June 2017 - 07:52 AM.

  • 0

#9 Col. Flagg

Col. Flagg

    Robert E. Lee - Patriot

  • Members
  • 1415 posts

Posted 26 June 2017 - 08:42 AM

I don't think this is about the applicant worrying about losing his clearance - it's about people that no longer need it keeping his personal information.

 

I concur on letting it go legal.  If he's that concerned, throwing his attorney a hundred bucks to put together a letter demanding the return of the application by a certain date should be worth it.

 

Aren't BSA forms the property of BSA and not the CO? I don't know the answer, so I am curious.

 

Our unit lucky enough to have a data security expert on staff. We've put in place a process for storing and shredding all personal information we collect, as well as deleting it out of troop software so SSN and health info is not archived.

 

I agree that if the CO keeps the docs they should be required to return them if that's what the law says.


  • 0

#10 NJCubScouter

NJCubScouter

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 6315 posts

Posted 26 June 2017 - 11:30 AM

The SSN is only supposed to be on the council copy of the application anyway, so it can be used for the criminal background check. The space for the SSN is blacked out on the unit copy. Which of course does not mean that there isn't other personal information on the application, so an app that is rejected by the CO should immediately be returned to the applicant.
  • 1

#11 Ranman328

Ranman328

    Member

  • Members
  • 54 posts

Posted 26 June 2017 - 06:09 PM

They aren't worried about losing their clearance. Financials play a part in the clearance process. If this application is misplaced or lost or gets in the wrong hands, someone could open up all kinds of credit or anything else for that matter and do some real damage.

The rejection part is apparently due to the CO having hard feelings against this guy. A few years ago the Cub Scout Pack he was the Cubmaster for left this CO. It is a Lutheran Church and the COR decided to quit scouting due to the new leadership policy. He did this in September and the CO could not find a replacement. As you know you are required to have a COR to recharter. The Pack had 50 scouts and the Pack Committee took a vote on what to do because by mid October, no one had stepped up to be the COR. This District requires their Charters to be turned in November 1. So this left them in a very difficult spot. The Pack Committee voted to move to a new CO. They didn't leave because of any hard feelings or anything like that, only because they couldn't get a COR.

There is also a very small Troop there as well. They only had about 6 scouts (another story in itself). This guy had made promise to the Scoutmaster and CC that he would do his best to build that troop back up. This past March the guy brought over eight bridging Webelos Scouts and two additional scouts that he got to rejoin Scouts. 10 total with four more coming at the end of summer. The SM and CC had already asked him to join as an ASM and he accepted which is why all these other families decided to join this troop that only had 6 scouts at the time. Little did he know there was a lady on the church council that had it in for him because of the Packs move a few years ago. The funny thing is, he had nothing to do with it as the CM doesn't have voting rights on the Pack Committee. The Council told the CC that starting with this guys application, they were going to review and approve all Adult Applications. They were not going to take the SM and CC recommendations. As all of you know is just fine and well within their rights. They decided to reject his application based on the Pack moving. Seems a little silly to me as this guy is well liked in the district and in scouting in general.

There was a big uproar at the District level asking why any troop would reject an adult leader that has been in scouting over 10 years with the credentials this guy has. It appears that the lady with the axe to grind sits on CS Roundtable. Five other Troops have contacted this guy and offered him an ASM position at their Troops. Last I talked to him, he was visiting other troops to find a good fit for his two scouts. He was torn because he made a promise to these two guys about building the troop back up and if he leaves, so will the 10 possibly 14 of the scouts that followed him there. They all get along well have quite a bit of fun. It is a shame that someone that doesn't even have a kid in scouting wants to ruin it for others.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on, but his major concern was that he just doesn't want his Personal info floating around especially since there seems to be some hard feelings on the other end. I don't blame him, I guess I wouldn't want mine out there either. I told him as a UC (not this troops UC), I would try to help. But as always, when I come here for advice, you guys and gals come through. Thanks for all you do!
  • 0

#12 desertrat77

desertrat77

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2260 posts

Posted 26 June 2017 - 07:14 PM

Ranman, thanks for the insights.  I'm sorry he had to go through all of that, but I'm sure he'll be a valued leader elsewhere. 

 

Re his personal info:  I understand his concern.  Being retired military, I know my full SSAN is on a truckload of performance reports that I wrote on subordinates.  Some days it bothers me a bit, other not.

 

However, even if he got all of the documents back, there is nothing preventing the CO from making copies for their own files.   I'm all for fighting city hall, but in this case, I'm not sure he'll get any results that will be worth the trouble.


Edited by desertrat77, 26 June 2017 - 07:16 PM.

  • 0

#13 Ranman328

Ranman328

    Member

  • Members
  • 54 posts

Posted 26 June 2017 - 08:01 PM

Desertrat77. I feel bad for the guy. I just found out tonight that he is letting his scouts decide if they want to go to another troop. The boys went to the SM and CC and asked if they could meet with the council and discuss the unfounded accusations with them and let them know that the troop and scouts are going to be the ones hurt by this decision. Apparently no one has even met the COR or anyone on the council. They do not attend any of the Troop activities. The SM contacted the scouts to say their request was immediately denied. If that doesn't speak volumes, I don't know what does. I spoke to the UC for this unit and he told me there have been years of issues with the one lady and the troop. She apparently was a member of the troop with her son and did nothing but badmouth the SM, CC and former ASM. She works behind the scenes to discourage people from going to that troop. Not sure why nothing has been done to discourage this type of activity but that is above my pay grade. The UC met with the SM, CC and COR to find a resolution because the SM and CC were fighting the rejection decision. They apparently had emails proving this lady was spreading false information regarding this guy but the COR wouldn't budge. Looks like this troop will be back to 6 scouts soon. The good news is that some other troop will pick up a fine group scouts and leaders to build the future.

I agree about the making copies but I would hope a church organization would do the right thing and just let this guy move on. They obviously don't have much interest in promoting scouting and to continue messing with the guy is just bad business.
  • 1

#14 Stosh

Stosh

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 12466 posts

Posted 26 June 2017 - 09:32 PM

As a former pastor, I can assure you no one fights dirtier than churches.  They hold the best grudges and rumor monger better than anyone out there even those promoting Fake News. 

 

I attend church just about every Sunday and haven't held church membership in over 30 years.  WAY TOO MUCH DRAMA, not enough ministry going on.


  • 2

#15 qwazse

qwazse

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6841 posts

Posted 27 June 2017 - 04:33 AM

As a former pastor, I can assure you no one fights dirtier than churches.  They hold the best grudges and rumor monger better than anyone out there even those promoting Fake News. 
 
I attend church just about every Sunday and haven't held church membership in over 30 years.  WAY TOO MUCH DRAMA, not enough ministry going on.

So much for "if you remember your brother has anything against you ..." :(
  • 0

#16 Back Pack

Back Pack

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 691 posts

Posted 27 June 2017 - 05:25 AM

So much for "if you remember your brother has anything against you ..." :(


I laugh on Sundays during lunch out with friends. The rudest people are those who've just left church. It's not just Christians either.

I hope this guy finds a new troop. Would serve the old CO right for losing him. Not a Christian attitude but certainly a Biblical one.
  • 1

#17 scoutldr

scoutldr

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4472 posts

Posted 27 June 2017 - 06:18 AM

If the applicant works for DoD or a DoD contractor, the Office of Personnel Management has already breached his information...several times.  I know, I got free "credit monitoring" , not that it's worth anything.


  • 0

#18 Back Pack

Back Pack

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 691 posts

Posted 27 June 2017 - 06:20 AM

That's what they get for not using a DISA data center. :)
  • 0

#19 Eagle94-A1

Eagle94-A1

    Been there. Done that.

  • Members
  • 1992 posts

Posted 27 June 2017 - 09:21 AM

I feel for the guy.  But I really feel for the Scouts since they are the ones going to get hurt the most.

 

My troop growing up was in a similar situation. We had a church council member very anti-Boy Scout. She eventually became the IH, and expressed her displeasure with the troop by calling the police on us for trespassing when we over the scheduled time for an Eagle Court of Honor. Eventually the troop moved to a different CO that wanted us.


  • 0

"Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt


#20 desertrat77

desertrat77

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2260 posts

Posted 27 June 2017 - 09:22 AM

I'm reminded of something a fellow student told me while I was attending a religious college many years ago.   Late one night, after discussing a recent scandal at the school involving another student and his local church:

 

"The Lord definitely sends His people to this college.  The problem is, the Devil sends his people too."


  • 2




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users