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Unfortunate issue at Cub Scout Day Camp, seeking advice


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#21 mashmaster

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 11:07 PM

I agree with Stosh.  I still think the range master (and camp director) setup the range in the wrong place.


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#22 Back Pack

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 08:31 AM

I agree with Stosh.  I still think the range master (and camp director) setup the range in the wrong place.


That issue still needs to be addressed.
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#23 Lurking...

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 08:46 AM

That issue still needs to be addressed.

 

Probably, but it has nothing to do with the broken window.  Even if the range was set up correctly, a stray shot could have gone off in any one of 360o's.  Or up for that matter.  It is a rather convenient excuse to blame the BB gun range. But who's to say it had anything to do with a BB gun and/or range placement.  Unless the ATF does an investigation, an unsupervised kid throwing a rock in the parking lot could have done the same thing.  Better yet a slingshot works great for getting into trouble.

 

No witnesses, no evidence, just speculation and assumption.  Not much to go on.


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#24 Back Pack

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 05:26 AM

If there's no witnesses then you can't say it has nothing to do with the broken window. As you say, it's conjecture and assumptions either way. But if you don't follow set procedures for a firing range the probability of an accident goes up.
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#25 Lurking...

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 07:53 AM

Yeah, you can shoot your eye out with those BB guns.


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#26 Col. Flagg

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 08:26 AM

Yeah, you can shoot your eye out with those BB guns.

 

I think the point is that if the range violated the shooting sports guidelines that the chance of a kid aiming 30 degrees right (on purpose or not) is a lot higher than if the parking lot is 180 degrees from down range. 

 

Can all those other things break windows? Sure. But the liklihood of a stray BB making it in to a lot adjacent to a range is much higher than if proper layout was followed. It does bear investigation.


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#27 Lurking...

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 12:23 PM

If BSA gets enough complaints about how Cub BB gun ranges are set up, BB guns will follow suit to squirt guns and that will solve the problem altogether.


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#28 Col. Flagg

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 12:30 PM

If BSA gets enough complaints about how Cub BB gun ranges are set up, BB guns will follow suit to squirt guns and that will solve the problem altogether.

 

So we don't hold a council's feet to the fire to follow the shooting sports manual for range safety? That makes no sense.


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#29 Lurking...

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 12:45 PM

So we don't hold a council's feet to the fire to follow the shooting sports manual for range safety? That makes no sense.

 

Yes, enforce the rules if one has to have rules, they are there for a reason.  BUT, in this case the rules weren't followed.  Now what does one do?  Obviously, the council cannot be held responsible for rogue leadership not following the rules.  Yes, the council was remiss in their enforcement of the rules because things go south when it happens. This incident should never have happened had the range been set up appropriately.  This time it was a car window, next time it could be a person.  Those setting up the range need to have their feet held to the fire and yes, the council should have done a cursory follow up to make sure safety was maximized.


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#30 Col. Flagg

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 12:51 PM

Yes, enforce the rules if one has to have rules, they are there for a reason.  BUT, in this case the rules weren't followed.  Now what does one do?  Obviously, the council cannot be held responsible for rogue leadership not following the rules.  Yes, the council was remiss in their enforcement of the rules because things go south when it happens. This incident should never have happened had the range been set up appropriately.  This time it was a car window, next time it could be a person.  Those setting up the range need to have their feet held to the fire and yes, the council should have done a cursory follow up to make sure safety was maximized.

 

Change "not following the range rules" to "not following YPT" or "not following age matrix" or "not following climbing safety rules" and tell me if this argument still holds water.

 

Council event. Council property. Council responsibility. I don't think it gets any clearer than that.


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#31 Lurking...

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 01:20 PM

I agree, but not everyone follows the rules.  What then?  Do they get kicked out of scouting?  Most of the time it's just a slap on the wrist unless the media gets involved.


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#32 Col. Flagg

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:30 PM

I agree, but not everyone follows the rules.  What then?  Do they get kicked out of scouting?  Most of the time it's just a slap on the wrist unless the media gets involved.

 

Just like getting your national camp certification is important to some camps, maybe having this issue flagged for council demonstrates their attention to detail. If they miss this what's next? Lack of water front coverage? Improper records for climbing gear maintenance? Dinning hall health violations?

 

I have sympathy because I have worked at and run a camp before. I have friends that run council camps now and see all the crud they deal with to maintain their rating, so it is unfair to look the other way when a council clearly violates one of the easiest things to police.

 

I'd simply like to see the incident be reported and the council take steps to make sure that they never set a range up like that again. One has to wonder if they missed something as simple as this, what other corners are they cutting? Maybe none. Maybe many. One never knows until you shine the light under the stove how many roaches you have....if any.  :D


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#33 Lurking...

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:53 PM

If this was a Cub activity held at the council camp, why was the BB gun activity not set up at the rifle range instead of the parking lot?  I can see where Cub camps are different locales than Boy camps, but if one is going to go through all the hoops to have a separate Cub camp, maybe they ought to jump through ALL the hoops necessary to hold all the Cub activities safely, even more safety considering the maturity of the boys.


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#34 NJCubScouter

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 03:31 PM

Council event. Council property. Council responsibility. I don't think it gets any clearer than that.


The OP said it was not council property. But it was a council event. From the various posts I get the impression that the Camp Director told the OP one thing and the council something else. In other words he told everyone what they wanted to hear. That sounds like the problem right there.

Edited by NJCubScouter, 10 July 2017 - 03:32 PM.

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#35 EmberMike

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 07:45 AM

The letter from the Program Director was a bit dissapointing. Even taking the same stance that they did, denying any wrongdoing, they certainly could have worded it better. Implying that you were having this covered by insurance yet still seeking reimbursement was inappropriate. Surely the director knows as well as anyone else that quite likely your deductible would prohibit an insurance claim on $300.

 

If it were me, and if I really did believe that the range setup wasn't at fault for the window, I still would have taken a different approach in responding. 


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