Outside Magazine: Boy Scouts Should Allow Girls

[Col. Flagg 909]

I know we can argue endlessly whether co-ed will help the BSA with membership numbers, and there are as many opinions about this as there are members of this forum. So I'd rather not re-open that can of worms. But one thing I think is worth keeping in mind is that the BSA was and is fading away fast already. Some years losing over 100,000 youth members and 20,000 volunteers. And they repeat these numbers sometimes several years in a row.

Let's take a business angle to this topic then. Name a successful company that got rid of its flagship product, the product with the most consumers or members, totally changed that product and GAINED market share or substantially increased sales. Remember New Coke? 

 

The difference with a membership organization like Boy Scouts is, once you let the genie out of that bottle (introduce coed Scouting and replace single-sex Scouting) those former members will be gone for good. They won't come back and buy your "Scouting Classic" when BSA realizes what a colossal mistake they made.

[EmberMike 144]

...The difference with a membership organization like Boy Scouts is, once you let the genie out of that bottle (introduce coed Scouting and replace single-sex Scouting) those former members will be gone for good. They won't come back and buy your "Scouting Classic" when BSA realizes what a colossal mistake they made.

 

I hate to say it, but what if the BSA doesn't care if they lose some people for good? I know, it sounds terrible. But the BSA knew it would lose members when they opted to let in gay members. For sure they knew it would happen, zero doubt about it. Some people would very fairly view that as a mistake. But maybe it's not a mistake from the National perspective. Maybe it's part of some (possibly crazy) plan to reform the BSA into a different organization. 

 

It's a huge gamble, for sure. If this is indeed what they're doing, they're betting on a progressive demographic to replace a more traditional one. But they've sort of been doing that throughout their existance. BP would probably flip his campaign hat if he saw skateboarding at a jambo or STEM activities. The BSA today operates way outside of the traditional scouting practices that were established in the early days of the movement. And it's a fact that people have left the BSA all through these years of change because the BSA continuously moves away from traditional scouting and towards a continually modernized version of the program. 

 

But just maybe, this is the way National wants to go. Maybe it's not a mistake to them, but a way forward with a broader long-term vision of what the BSA needs to be if it is to survive and eventually thrive in this century. 

 

From a business angle, is it really that crazy to abandon your flagship product when the ship is sinking? 

 

New Coke is a terrible comparison, by the way. A lot of consumer negativity around that was due to marketing influence, both on the part of Coke and also because of well-timed advertising campaigns by Pepsi to create skepticism about New Coke at launch. They also faced backlash from manufacturing partners who were already suing them over price disputes.

 

And Coke was never in as bad a position as the BSA is in. Coke and Pepsi were the top cola brands, just competing for that #1 spot. Whoever was in 2nd was still doing extremely well. Coke could have done nothing and still lived on as a healthy company, even if they weren't running next to Pepsi anymore. 

 

The BSA isn't at war with another mega company. And there is no 2nd place for the BSA. It's either they figure out the membership problem or it might be all over.

[Zuse 9]

I know we can argue endlessly whether co-ed will help the BSA with membership numbers, and there are as many opinions about this as there are members of this forum. So I'd rather not re-open that can of worms. But one thing I think is worth keeping in mind is that the BSA was and is fading away fast already. Some years losing over 100,000 youth members and 20,000 volunteers. And they repeat these numbers sometimes several years in a row. 

 

Is co-ed the solution? Or will co-ed increase the rate of decline? I think we're going to find out because it's happening whether anyone likes it or not. But let's be real about this. The BSA is already fading fast, and I think we'd hit a critical low membership level in 10 years if nothing else changes. There has to be a number at which it becomes problematic for National to even function as-is. 

 

I agree with you- there's so much that goes into the declining trends as contributing factors.

 

I personally think that among other things, you have:

1. Families being less connected, spending less time together and more single-parent families (as cited by Mr. Surbaugh during his presentation), which undermines the family-centered support that youth need to really be successful and invested in scouting.
   1. On a related note, I see more and more parents expecting scouting to fill in their gaps as parents. Scouting thrives and does its best when it is merely reinforcing what should already be taught in the home; it should not be the main vehicle whereby these principles and values are taught.
2. Technology has taken over people's lives more than ever- ask a boy or girl if they would rather play a video game/browse Facebook or learn how to cook in the outdoors, and 9/10 will say they prefer the former.
3. Scouting is increasingly expensive and families have to make hard choices about where to spend their money. Sure, membership fees are cheap, but when you talk about equipment, uniforms, awards, travel, etc- it starts to look more like a really expensive hobby.

BSA--and scouting in general--is fading more by the day. The program is great when implemented effectively with dedicated volunteers and invested youth, but I really don't see a way for BSA to modernize and go back to the glory days of high membership numbers regardless of what changes they make. What scouting has to offer is more needed than ever, but modern society doesn't see its value.

 

I can't help but feel bad for BSA's professional staff in some ways because under their watch, the decline of Scouting continues and they desperately want to change that. I commend them for exploring any option because Scouting is wonderful, but I think the factors really contributing to it are out of their control. 

[Back Pack 431]

So let's change the ENTIRE focus of scouting to meet today's narcissistic, technology-centric, non-engaged parenting households so they have a place to park ALL their kids so they can go to their golf and wine parties?

[Stosh 3452]

I'm beginning to think this co-ed thing is a good thing.

 

Dump the Scouts and the Mrs. and I start putting on traveling, camping, hiking, kayaking, fishing, 6 week trip to Alaska (my bucket list) The Canyon Country of the Southwest (her bucket list), and maybe get the granddaughters out into the woods camping.

 

Oh, you say Family Scouting is a program that can do all that?  Yep, when pigs fly. 

 

Both my daughters are homeschooling their children.  I have been tasked to be part of that process.  They didn't need to twist my arm very hard.

[Zuse 9]

So let's change the ENTIRE focus of scouting to meet today's narcissistic, technology-centric, non-engaged parenting households so they have a place to park ALL their kids so they can go to their golf and wine parties?

 

Hopefully I'm not being dense, but I'm guessing you were joking. It wasn't my intent to suggest that BSA should pander to these trends- quite the opposite, I think Scouting needs to stand its ground because these principles really do matter and they build strong youth. Scouting just can't work without strong families, and families need to be investing the time to build those strong households with or without scouting.

[Back Pack 431]

Hopefully I'm not being dense, but I'm guessing you were joking. It wasn't my intent to suggest that BSA should pander to these trends- quite the opposite, I think Scouting needs to stand its ground because these principles really do matter and they build strong youth. Scouting just can't work without strong families, and families need to be investing the time to build those strong households with or without scouting.

Nope it was just a running commentary.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Back Pack

[Gwaihir 198]

 

From a business angle, is it really that crazy to abandon your flagship product when the ship is sinking? 

 

New Coke is a terrible comparison, by the way. A lot of consumer negativity around that was due to marketing influence, both on the part of Coke and also because of well-timed advertising campaigns by Pepsi to create skepticism about New Coke at launch. They also faced backlash from manufacturing partners who were already suing them over price disputes

 

Not sure how old you are, but New Coke was bad because it tasted like liquid garbage.  

[Sablanck 26]

So those of you planning on leaving if they vote to add girls to Boy scouts.  What is your decision based on?

I have a daughter and she has no interest in scouting of any kind but if she came to me asking me how to do something I wouldn't turn my back on her and tell her to find a female to teach it to her.

I get all of the arguments on boys development, girls development this and that but maybe these girls are seeking to learn what the boys are learning and their program isn't making it happen.

Maybe all male adult volunteers need to picket outside of Girl scout offices telling them to fix their program? 

When were dissatisfied with a product we go looking for a better one.

I dont agree with forcing a program to change but I can see why they are after the Boy Scouts.

[Col. Flagg 909]

So those of you planning on leaving if they vote to add girls to Boy scouts.  What is your decision based on?

I have a daughter and she has no interest in scouting of any kind but if she came to me asking me how to do something I wouldn't turn my back on her and tell her to find a female to teach it to her.

I get all of the arguments on boys development, girls development this and that but maybe these girls are seeking to learn what the boys are learning and their program isn't making it happen.

Maybe all male adult volunteers need to picket outside of Girl scout offices telling them to fix their program? 

When were dissatisfied with a product we go looking for a better one.

I dont agree with forcing a program to change but I can see why they are after the Boy Scouts.

 

I have daughters too. I have raised them to be respectful of beliefs and opinions, as well as to stand up for what they believe in. I volunteer in both Boy Scouts and Venturing. My son and daughter are involved in Boy Scouts and Venturing respectively (my son in both). That's my preface.

 

Why no girls in Boy Scouting? 

• BSA has a coed program, it's called Venturing. No need to open Boy Scouts to girls. Girls can do MORE in Venturing than they can in Boy Scouts. Why? BSA does not allow some activities in Boy Scouts that they *DO* allow in Venturing. Why would any girl want to do less?

   

• If girls want an all girl program they can go to GSUSA. If that program does not meet their needs then CHANGE THAT PROGRAM!!! Why change Boy Scouts? Go to the organization lead by women and designed for women and make them change their program!!!

[Gwaihir 198]

 

I have daughters too. I have raised them to be respectful of beliefs and opinions, as well as to stand up for what they believe in. I volunteer in both Boy Scouts and Venturing. My son and daughter are involved in Boy Scouts and Venturing respectively (my son in both). That's my preface.

 

Why no girls in Boy Scouting? 

• BSA has a coed program, it's called Venturing. No need to open Boy Scouts to girls. Girls can do MORE in Venturing than they can in Boy Scouts. Why? BSA does not allow some activities in Boy Scouts that they *DO* allow in Venturing. Why would any girl want to do less?

   

• If girls want an all girl program they can go to GSUSA. If that program does not meet their needs then CHANGE THAT PROGRAM!!! Why change Boy Scouts? Go to the organization lead by women and designed for women and make them change their program!!!

 

 

Same.  Almost verbatim. 

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

Agree with Flagg and Gwaihir above.

 

I'll add though that I will be following the lead of my sons. Oldest is not looking forward to it, and I don't know what he will do. Middle son says it's a bad idea, but again do not know what he will do. I do know of one troop that will stay all male, and they may want to join them. Heck the more I see of that troop, I wish I would have taken oldest to see them as they are a true, Scout-led, active troop.

 

 

I am going to throw in a conversation I had with a parent on this topic. 1) If BSA creates a "separate but equal" program, he will do everything in his power to make the troop coed. There may be 2 units on paper, but in reality it will be one.  Also, and I really want to hear from our Venturing leaders about this one, parent stated that if they cannot find a female Scouter to camp so that the girls can camp as Scouts, turn the camp out into a "family camp out" so the girls can camp as "family members" and stay with their dad, or with their friends, and get around having a female Scouter.

[Eagledad 2777]

Agree with Flagg and Gwaihir above.

 

I'll add though that I will be following the lead of my sons. Oldest is not looking forward to it, and I don't know what he will do. Middle son says it's a bad idea, but again do not know what he will do. I do know of one troop that will stay all male, and they may want to join them. Heck the more I see of that troop, I wish I would have taken oldest to see them as they are a true, Scout-led, active troop.

 

 

I am going to throw in a conversation I had with a parent on this topic. 1) If BSA creates a "separate but equal" program, he will do everything in his power to make the troop coed. There may be 2 units on paper, but in reality it will be one.  Also, and I really want to hear from our Venturing leaders about this one, parent stated that if they cannot find a female Scouter to camp so that the girls can camp as Scouts, turn the camp out into a "family camp out" so the girls can camp as "family members" and stay with their dad, or with their friends, and get around having a female Scouter.

Eagle, what do you think is the motivation behind parent #1?

 

Barry

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

I just started to broach the subjects with my two sons and both voted "out for me" which is a shame since Son#1 is an Eagle who came back as a young ASM and Son#2 will soon get his Eagle, loves OA, and was going to come back too. Son#2 has lots of girls who are friends and said "I am friends with them in band do I have to see them all the time".

 

80% of the Scouts that have brought it up by rumor said they would probably leave. That includes the 2 Gay scouts. 

[Col. Flagg 909]

Also, and I really want to hear from our Venturing leaders about this one, parent stated that if they cannot find a female Scouter to camp so that the girls can camp as Scouts, turn the camp out into a "family camp out" so the girls can camp as "family members" and stay with their dad, or with their friends, and get around having a female Scouter.

 

Venturing is pretty clear on the need for a female leader to be around when its a coed outing. I cannot see BSA giving up that rule if Boy Scouts go coed. If anything it would require a female leader (not simply a registered mom) to be around EVERY Boy Scout event.

 

Oh, and it would require all current Boy Scout leaders to take a new coed YPT course. Typically, BSA does not see the down stream issues.

 

I just started to broach the subjects with my two sons and both voted "out for me" 

 

This reflects a poll our TC conducted and one the PLC conducted. Nearly all the guys want to keep the troop boy-only. The Venture Crew was more than willing to take more girls, not surprisingly.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Col. Flagg