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2017 Guide to Advancement released


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#1 robert12

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 02:34 PM

The 2017 revision of the Guide to Advancement has been released.  

 

No real big changes, other than the separation of Sea Scouts from Venturing, the most welcome changes/clarifications in my mind:

 

4.2.3.1: Added clarifcation that a Scout must be given credit for active participation time even if a unit takes time off during the summer or any other time of the year

4.2.3.4.3: Added clarifcation that the Scout must be given credit for time served in a position of responsibility even if a unit takes time off during the summer or any other time of the year.

8.0.0.2: Added clarifcation that a board of review cannot be denied or postponed due to nonrequirement reasons such as uniforming or delinquent dues payments.

8.0.3.2: Added clarifcation that a Scout and his parents or guardians must be informed of the right to a board of review under disputed circumstances.

8.0.1.0: Added clarifcation that board members should recuse themselves if they cannot be fair and impartial.

9.0.2.8: Added that signatures on a Scout’s service project report need not be dated before his 18th birthday.

 

 

www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf


Edited by robert12, 23 May 2017 - 02:34 PM.

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#2 fred johnson

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 03:17 PM

These are interesting clarifications.

 

4.2.3.5: Added clarifcation that unit leaders cannot require a Scout to provide certain documentation as a precondition to a unit leader (Scoutmaster) conference.

 

4.2.3.6: Clarifed that counting service hours provided elsewhere in the community is not “double counting” and they should be counted toward advancement.


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#3 NJCubScouter

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 04:26 PM

9.0.2.8: Added that signatures on a Scout’s service project report need not be dated before his 18th birthday.

 

There seems to be a growing list of things that do NOT have to be done before the 18th birthday.  At the time my son made Eagle about 8 years ago the council was insisting that the application had to be in before the 18th birthday.  From what I have read elsewhere in this forum they can't do that anymore.  Now the Eagle project workbook can be signed after the birthday.  I hope that somewhere there is a clear list of what does and does not have to be done before the birthday.


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#4 Stosh

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 06:30 PM

There's nothing in the GTA that says a scout has to wait until his 18th birthday to have it all done.  He could just target say his 17th birthday and then enjoy wearing the rank for a year and not have to worry about all the last minute hassle.  I sometimes tire of hearing all the "Woe is me" stories about how the scout has all kinds of trouble because he waited too long.  He's had 7 years to figure this out.


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#5 mashmaster

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 06:55 PM

If I read this right, we can only encourage scouts to wear their uniform.  It sounds like one method "advancement" is not supporting another method "uniform".


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#6 Stosh

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 07:35 PM

Very few scouts wear a uniform anyway.  Usually it's piece-meal at best and definitely untucked at worst.  Uniforming may be a method, but like the patrol method, it's not universally accepted..


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#7 TAHAWK

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 08:11 PM

If I read this right, we can only encourage scouts to wear their uniform.  It sounds like one method "advancement" is not supporting another method "uniform".

As has been true for many years.  Use of the uniform is encouraged or strongly encouraged.  Like advancement, it is a method - a tool - not a goal or objective.  A good person and citizen is that still in uniform or out, Scout or Eagle, and that is the place we want to end up.  

 

2015 Guide to Advancement (and for years before that)

8.0.0.2 Boards of Review Must Be Granted When Requirements Are Met

 

Except in disputed circumstances as noted in "Initiating Eagle Scout Board of Review Under Disputed Circumstances," 8.0.3.2, the Scout or his parents or guardians shall not be responsible for requesting that a board take place.

8.0.0.4 Wearing the Uniform—or Neat in Appearance

It is preferred a Scout be in full field uniform for any board of review. He should wear as much of it as he owns, and it should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It may be the uniform as the members of his troop, team, crew, or ship wear it. If wearing all or part of the uniform is impractical for whatever reason, the candidate should be clean and neat in his appearance and dressed appropriately, according to his means, for the milestone marked by the occasion. Regardless of unit, district, or council expectations or rules, boards of review shall not reject candidates solely for reasons related to uniforming or attire, as long as they are dressed to the above description. Candidates shall not be required to purchase uniforming or clothing such as coats and ties to participate in a board of review.


Edited by TAHAWK, 23 May 2017 - 08:17 PM.

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#8 NJCubScouter

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 08:25 PM

There's nothing in the GTA that says a scout has to wait until his 18th birthday to have it all done.  He could just target say his 17th birthday and then enjoy wearing the rank for a year and not have to worry about all the last minute hassle.  I sometimes tire of hearing all the "Woe is me" stories about how the scout has all kinds of trouble because he waited too long.  He's had 7 years to figure this out.

 

There is a difference between what would happen in an ideal world, or even a better world, and what the actual requirement is.  The rules should be clear and, if you'll pardon the expression, uniform.  Whether a Scout makes Eagle should not depend on some council staffer's interpretation of what has to be in before the 18th birthday.  It should all be clearly set out.  Do you disagree that it should all be clearly set out?


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#9 TAHAWK

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 08:45 PM

Very few scouts wear a uniform anyway.  Usually it's piece-meal at best and definitely untucked at worst.  Uniforming may be a method, but like the patrol method, it's not universally accepted..

The Patrol Method is mostly not allowed by adults in Scouting.  Most, for example, appoint the theoretical leaders and themselves directly lead the Scouts.  

 

That state of things is hardly a shock given that BSA has failed for decades to explain its "most important method" in any single list, chapter, article, training session, or entire training course.  (Wood Badge is said to teach the method solely by "demonstrating" it  -- without explanation or guidance and solely by showing the staff, by analogy the adults, in near total control throughout almost all aspects of the course.)  

 

Indeed, the troop receives the overwhelming emphasis in current BSA literature.  To point out one example that ought to be shocking, there is a total lack of any mention of patrol program-planning when a Scout, according to BSA elsewhere and to this date, is supposed to primarily experience Scouting int he context of the patrol to which he belongs, not the troop to which the patrol belongs.  Many here could give examples.

 

And all this in spite of the fact that there are certainly professional Scouters who understand and support the Patrol Method, having experienced it as Scouts and, in some cases, by using it as Scoutmasters.


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#10 robert12

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 06:09 AM

There seems to be a growing list of things that do NOT have to be done before the 18th birthday.  At the time my son made Eagle about 8 years ago the council was insisting that the application had to be in before the 18th birthday.  From what I have read elsewhere in this forum they can't do that anymore.  Now the Eagle project workbook can be signed after the birthday.  I hope that somewhere there is a clear list of what does and does not have to be done before the birthday.

 

Here is the list that shows what has to be completed by the scouts 18th birthday, if it's not on the list then it can be completed afterwards.

 

9.0.1.1 Complete All the Requirements
Confirm that the following requirements have been completed before the 18th birthday: active participation, Scout spirit, merit badges, position of responsibility, service project, and unit leader conference. Note that the unit leader (Scoutmaster) conference need not be the last item accomplished. The board of review may be conducted after the 18th birthday. For details, see “Boards of Review,” 8.0.0.0. A candidate must be registered through the time he is completing requirements but need not be registered thereafter or when his board of review is conducted.


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#11 Tampa Turtle

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 10:25 AM

I think they were good clarifications. My Troop tried pre-Scout Master Conference forms that went down (as they should have been) like Lead Zeppelins. Why do so many adults feel like they need to 'improve' the programs by forms, forms, forms. Bores so many boys to tears.


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#12 fred johnson

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Posted 24 May 2017 - 04:13 PM

There seems to be a growing list of things that do NOT have to be done before the 18th birthday.  At the time my son made Eagle about 8 years ago the council was insisting that the application had to be in before the 18th birthday.  From what I have read elsewhere in this forum they can't do that anymore.  Now the Eagle project workbook can be signed after the birthday.  I hope that somewhere there is a clear list of what does and does not have to be done before the birthday.

 

I view these less as clarifications and definitely not change in expectations.  IMHO, the changes explicitly state what should have already been clearly read.  

 

For example you cite, the project is required before being 18.  That's the requirement.  The adult signature is paperwork.  If the scout had his project done before turning 18 but did not get the scoutmaster or beneficiary signature before turning 18, it should not be a wall stopping the scout from getting Eagle.  

 

I think this is a good consistent clarification.  The scout's journey of advancement (learning and doing) is to be done before turning 18.  Paperwork.  Rank advancement submittal.  BORs.  etc.  Can happen after you turn 18.  

 

The real issue is the council you reference requiring paperwork being submitted before the scout turns 18.  That was never a national requirement ... in the last fifteen years that I know.  I pray it was never the grounds for a scout not earning Eagle.


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#13 blw2

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 09:59 AM

this whole "uniform for BOR" thing is interesting to me.  Our CC and generally our troop "culture" is full uniform for BOR.

 

I sat on once where we sat and waiting for the scout, who was scrambling to borrow another scout's belt (and maybe necker and socks)

I was very uncomfortable with the idea that "we" were making this scout jump through those silly hoops, and while I didn't make a federal case of it I believe that I sad so to the board while we were waiting....  

I would have much rather have just run the board, and maybe steered a few questions his way about the uniform he's wearing..... just to provoke some thought and discussion.

 

We do some other things too that I don't really care for, such as making the scout stand the whole time...

 

hummm, come to think of it I think that may have been one of the last boards I did and it was a while ago. 


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#14 Col. Flagg

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 10:07 AM

@blw2, Our new advancement chair is an engineer. He's already digested the BOR section and is revamping a few things to come more in to compliance with the GTA. I'd say 98% of what we do was compliant. A few things, like uniform, were not...though the uniform remains heavily suggested.


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#15 NJCubScouter

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 10:22 AM

We do some other things too that I don't really care for, such as making the scout stand the whole time...

 

Just when I thought I'd heard everything.  We ask the Scout to stand at the beginning, give the Scout sign and recite the Oath and/or Law, but other than that the Scout is seated.  It doesn't sound very reasonable to require the Scout to stand during the entire BOR.

  

I looked at the GTA (section 8.0.1.0) and it does not say anything about making Scouts stand during a BOR - though now that this has appeared in "print" maybe it will find its way into the 2019 version - but it does say this:

 

A certain level of formality and meaningful questioning should exist, but it is important that the atmosphere be relaxed and that the review is conducted with the Scout Law in mind.

 

Having the Scout stand does not sound like a very "relaxed atmosphere" to me.  Well, unless EVERYBODY is standing, but I assume that is not the case.


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#16 T2Eagle

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:23 AM

The problem with Boy Scouts is that we let people run it who aren't BOYS.

 

Stand for the whole BOR is a new one on me.  If you asked me what the ideal setting for a BOR was I would say some folks sitting around a campfire having a good discussion with a boy about his scouting experience.  My troop rarely achieves that, but it seems the further away from that we are the less well we're doing it.


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#17 Cleveland Rocks

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:49 AM

The Uniform BOR discussion made me think back to my Eagle BOR eons ago (1988). The advancement chair who ran Eagle BORs in my council was a stickler for full, complete uniform at his Eagle BORs.  It was such that there was an unofficial uniform closet for Scouts going for EBOR. It was not uncommon if there were multiple EBORs on one night for a Scout who just completed his BOR to take something off his uniform and hand it to the next Scout up if he was missing a part.  The Scoutmasters would work with each other to make sure their Scouts had uniform parts available for EBORs if they were missing something.

 

I had a complete uniform so I didn't have to worry, but I remember my Scoutmaster reminding me before the meeting that I'd better make sure I had all my uniform parts and that everything was in its proper place, which it was.

 

No one that I am aware of ever questioned or challenged it. Everyone thought it was a good idea to be in complete uniform.  GTA and Methods of Scouting aside, it sure sounds like a good idea!

 

He never failed anyone that I know of, but he would give you a good lecture if you came in an incomplete uniform.  A friend of mine, who was in a troop that wore bolo slides instead of neckerchiefs, got questioned about why he wasn't wearing a necker. He explained that his troop chose the bolos instead, but that didn't sit well, apparently. 

 

His rationale for it was, you've been in Scouting for X years, you should have purchased all the components for a complete uniform by now; you buy a shirt when you first join, add the pants a year or so later, add socks later, add headgear later, and before you know it you've got a complete uniform (he rationalized it that way to counter-argue the "uniforms are expensive" argument).


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#18 NJCubScouter

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 12:40 PM

When I was a Scout (60's/70's) nobody would even think about showing up for a BOR not in full uniform.  Of course at the time there probably was no National rule saying that a Scout does not have to wear a uniform at a BOR.

 

I think a number of units have a "rule" requiring uniforms at BOR's, and they either don't know or don't care what National has to say on the subject.  Our troop has what I guess would be called an "expectation" that a Scout will be in full uniform at their BOR, and everybody knows that is the expectation, and there is almost never a problem. Has a BOR ever been postponed because the Scout did not show up in the expected attire?  Well, maybe a few times, but nobody has ever challenged it.  We have BOR's "on demand" so if you don't have it this week you can have it next week or at the latest in two weeks.  Hopefully the issue will never come up again while I am doing BOR's.


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#19 Stosh

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 02:07 PM

Uniforms are not required, but if they have one they are encouraged to look nice for the BOR and they can sit down.  Our BOR's are very informal and have been held during camping weekends...around the fire.  When we didn't have enough people at the outing to make up a board, we asked neighboring troop leaders to do it for us.  We usually run with only 2 adults, both leaders (SM/ASM), neither qualify to be on the board.  So far we haven't had any problems with the process. 

 

I do as SM assist the boy in gathering up adults when asked, otherwise many of the boys will go to other campsites and enlist enough adults to to a board for him.  I don't know of any adults that ever refused them.


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#20 blw2

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 02:52 PM

I should have added earlier, that I'm fairly sure (but can't recall an exact case) that we have had times where a board was delayed because the scout was not in full uniform at the meeting.  It's not like the meeting started, just that the SM or someone would have just told him that he can't go for a BOR like that, let's do it next week....

Just when I thought I'd heard everything.  We ask the Scout to stand at the beginning, give the Scout sign and recite the Oath and/or Law, but other than that the Scout is seated.  It doesn't sound very reasonable to require the Scout to stand during the entire BOR.

  

I looked at the GTA (section 8.0.1.0) and it does not say anything about making Scouts stand during a BOR - though now that this has appeared in "print" maybe it will find its way into the 2019 version - but it does say this:

 

 

 

 

Having the Scout stand does not sound like a very "relaxed atmosphere" to me.  Well, unless EVERYBODY is standing, but I assume that is not the case.

 

No, that's not the case.  Typical set-up is 3 or sometimes 4 board members seated behind a table.  SM or ASM escorts scout front and center, and is introduced.

For young scouts, the CC or Adv chair will usually give them a little coaching schpeel about standing up straight, being formal and respectful, etc... try to make them understand that they can be relaxed, but they should remain formal.... not in so many words, but that is the gist

then ask them if they can recite the oath, law, outdoor code

then the questioning begins...

 

The problem with Boy Scouts is that we let people run it who aren't BOYS.

 

Stand for the whole BOR is a new one on me.  If you asked me what the ideal setting for a BOR was I would say some folks sitting around a campfire having a good discussion with a boy about his scouting experience.  My troop rarely achieves that, but it seems the further away from that we are the less well we're doing it.

exactly my thoughts as well.  

It wouldn't be sittin' around with feet propped up, munchin' on smores...

but comfortable and relaxed

 

for the less than ideal indoor setting, if it were up to me, I'd have the scout stand for the oath, etc.... then everyone would be seated, no table forming a symbolic wall, unless maybe if we were all just sitting around a table

 

I believe this practice was started as the troop norm long before the current folks were involved..... but they disagree with the idea of more relaxed settings.  They think it should be like a job interview.... to which i say I never had a job interview where I stood the whole time....  no matter, they don't get it....

 

regardless....while I don't agree with the practice, don't let this picture I've painted make it seem like the scouts are standing at attention getting dressed down military style....  It's approaching that in concept but it's not that rigid.  Not that bad.


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