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Female SPL


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#1 KentuckyScouter

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 12:56 AM

So,

 

This summer my daughter will be the first female SPL for NYLT in our council.  I was wondering how many other councils have broken this barrier?


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#2 RememberSchiff

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 06:27 AM

Welcome to scouter.com

 

This should be an interesting first topic.

 

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Edited by RememberSchiff, 11 May 2017 - 06:27 AM.

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#3 Back Pack

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 06:53 AM

So,

This summer my daughter will be the first female SPL for NYLT in our council. I was wondering how many other councils have broken this barrier?

We've had a few. They run things just like they do their crew. Giving that Venturing is more focused on project and event planning as part of rank advancement, Venturers are usually best prepared to run such events. All staff should have gotten plenty of training prior to the course starting.

The biggest issue is understanding and teaching the patrol method.

Edited by Back Pack, 11 May 2017 - 06:53 AM.

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#4 Lurking...

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 07:03 AM

Welcome to the forum!


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#5 qwazse

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 07:56 AM

@KentuckyScouter, welcome to the forums!

And congratulations to your daughter. You should be proud.

 

However, among seasoned venturers, she's no novelty. We routinely push our venturers into leadership and service, so NYLT is a natural draw for many of them. Since at that level, the odds of a venturer being of either sex are about even, and the odds of finding venutrers on NYLT staff are high if even only a couple crews in your council are functioning as they ought, it is more than likely that a female NYLT SPL will turn up from time to time.

 

Are you sure this is the first time this has happened in your council?

 

Back Pack is correct. Unless she is from a small crew, or a large crew that operates small "activity committees", the patrol method will have only been a theoretical construct. She will have to sell it without ever having tried the product for several years continuously. But, unfortunately, that's not unlike scouts from many of our troops these days.


Edited by qwazse, 11 May 2017 - 07:58 AM.

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#6 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 07:58 AM

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!

 

2) I thought NLYT no longer uses the terms SM, SPL, etc since the program,includes not only Boy Scouts, but also Sea Scouts and Venturers?

 

3) Can Explorers now do NYLT?


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"Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt


#7 Col. Flagg

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 08:29 AM

However, among seasoned venturers, she's no novelty. We routinely push our venturers into leadership and service, so NYLT is a natural draw for many of them. Since at that level, the odds of a venturer being of either sex are about even, and the odds of finding venutrers on NYLT staff are high if even only a couple crews in your council are functioning as they ought, it is more than likely that a female NYLT SPL will turn up from time to time.

 

I think all but one of the new national VOA are girls. The website hasn't quite caught up to social media just yet.

 

We had a new girl join our crew. She's just turned 14 and she's already Pres and running the crew as if she'd been in Venturing for 5 years!


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#8 perdidochas

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 11:54 AM

So,

 

This summer my daughter will be the first female SPL for NYLT in our council.  I was wondering how many other councils have broken this barrier?

Why isn't she the Crew President?  


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#9 qwazse

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 12:09 PM

Why isn't she the Crew President?  

@perdidochas, as an advisor, I have no problem with venturers working their crew using the patrol method. I have had problems with boy scouts working their troop using a club method. I don't know if it's the age range, mixing of sexes, or something cultural, but the propensity for boy scouts to sit on their hands when someone else steps in to work is much higher than with venturers. The PM makes those boys more responsible for the working of things. So, for NYLT, the lingua franca of the patrol structure is a better option.


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#10 NJCubScouter

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 02:13 PM

Welcome to the forum, KentuckyScouter!

 

I have never heard of this, but then again I wouldn't know who the staffers of our council NYLT troops are.  (When my son did NYLT I don't think Venturers had been included in NYLT yet.)

 

It sounds to me like a natural result of including Venturers in the NYLT program.  It is kind of amusing that, due to the terminology used at NYLT, a young woman can hold a title that she wouldn't be able to hold in the program on which the NYLT staff structure is modeled.  Congratulations to your daughter!


Edited by NJCubScouter, 11 May 2017 - 02:15 PM.

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#11 gumbymaster

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 09:08 AM

Congratulations on her achievement.

 

As for how common and where, this is all a matter of the local culture. In the White Stag leadership development program (they offer a program very similar to NYLT but run by venturing posts not council), this is not at all uncommon over the last 30-50+ years.


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#12 JosephMD

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 04:07 PM

When my son took NYLT the SPL was a female.  I don't think he noticed. 

 

National Capital Area Council


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#13 HulkSmash

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 01:38 PM

I can speak from experience.  I know this is my first post but I was curious how people felt on this topic as I searched the internet.  I am the current Scoutmaster/Course Director for my council's NYLT course for 2017 and 2018.  We run two years as Scoutmaster and two years as advisor.  Last year when I was over program it was obvious who the most qualified person was for SPL and that was one of my female staffers.  We had a male SPL at that time and he did an absolutely amazing job.   For 2017 I put her in place (as well as a number of other females as guides and such) and she knocked it out of the park.  This year I will have another female but only because when I look at qualifications and who's heart is truly in the program that's what makes the most sense.  It doesn't hurt that I have young ladies who have staffed multiple NAYLE courses, sit on the VOA and hold regional leadership positions that help them to be the leaders they are.  To me we should be gender blind and pick the candidate who is most qualified to bring the best program to the youth.  We preach diversity in both Wood Badge and NYLT so I see it as just another way we live the values we are teaching.  Unfortunately there are those that do not feel that way.    


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#14 qwazse

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 03:26 PM

I know this is my first post but I was curious how people felt on this topic ...  Last year when I was over program it was obvious who the most qualified person was for SPL and that was one of my female staffers.  We had a male SPL at that time and he did an absolutely amazing job.   For 2017 I put her in place (as well as a number of other females as guides and such) and she knocked it out of the park.  This year I will have another female ... 

Welcome to the forum @HulkSmash!

 

The biggest practical concern that folks here may have (that may or may not come with underlying opinions about sex and development) is the level of experience implementing the patrol method.

With a Boy Scout's resume that experience is measured straightforwardly by years in a patrol, as a patrol leader, as SPL, etc ...

 

What about your female staffers' experience do you take as equivalent to the patrol method ... or what about her performance did you decide could be translated into being a guide to nascent PL/SPLs?


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#15 Lurking...

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 04:59 PM

Welcome to the forum!


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#16 TAHAWK

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 09:35 PM

Welcome to the forum @HulkSmash!

 

The biggest practical concern that folks here may have (that may or may not come with underlying opinions about sex and development) is the level of experience implementing the patrol method.

 

With a Boy Scout's resume that experience is measured straightforwardly by years in a patrol, as a patrol leader, as SPL, etc ...

 

What about your female staffers' experience do you take as equivalent to the patrol method ... or what about her performance did you decide could be translated into being a guide to nascent PL/SPLs?

Only in theory does a Patrol Leader lead.  Not to repeat too much (as I repeat), BSA advocates the Patrol Method, has not explained it in its literature in decades, does not measure its USE in Journey to whatever, provides no incentive to the adults to allow its use, provides no disincentive for adults who do  not use it, does not train youth in it short of the minority experience of NYLT, and not completely even there, and does not train adults in what it is since the 1970's.   If it happens, it's by chance, luck, and the Blessing, not by design backed by behavior.  


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#17 qwazse

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 07:47 AM

Only in theory does a Patrol Leader lead.  Not to repeat too much (as I repeat), BSA advocates the Patrol Method, has not explained it in its literature in decades, does not measure its USE in Journey to whatever, provides no incentive to the adults to allow its use, provides no disincentive for adults who do  not use it, does not train youth in it short of the minority experience of NYLT, and not completely even there, and does not train adults in what it is since the 1970's.   If it happens, it's by chance, luck, and the Blessing, not by design backed by behavior.  

All that is to say that it is equally likely that any given NYLT staffer could have had more PM experience from being outside of a Boy Scout troop than from being in.

So, what does NYLT a course director look for in their SPL?


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#18 HulkSmash

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 07:53 AM

Thanks for the welcome.  With regard to the patrol method.  It is as much if not more the adults as it is the youth's ability to facilitate.  I find that in more cases than not it is the adult leader who is not allowing the patrol method to operate rather than the youth.  I have been very critical in my adult staff selections to ensure that I get adults who are willing to be in the background.  I would support that argument as evidenced in the wood badge course criteria.  The entire course is modeled around putting adults in a unit setting to emphasize the patrol method (among other things of course but you get the point).  I find that when you have adults who are willing to step back and let the youth lead the patrol method tends to implement itself.    

 

From a perspective of a females ability to implement the patrol method, I have been fortunate in having multiple females who have staffed NAYLE, been to Philmont/Northern Tier/Kodiak staffed Wood Badge/Powder Horn and a variety of other leadership courses.  That in itself does not qualify them, however from an experience standpoint it surely helps.  To be candid, the patrol method is something that can be taught and shown to a good leader and for females in active crews they are entirely youth led already so it is very easy.  When I am looking for my youth staff I look for young men/women who have the following traits:  

  1. Have the organizational skills, drive and commitment to show up to all meetings and put the work in to prepare for the course.  
  2. Their heart must be in the program.  Knowing the syllabus is one thing but living the values and being a true servant leader is something altogether different.  
  3. Maturity.  Both females and males.  I don't have tolerance for staff drama.  There are too many things going on during a course for me to have to divert attention to staff issues.  

The biggest decision I feel I make as Scoutmaster is my SPL.  I want the best leader possible out of the group regardless of sex.  I pick someone I feel has the traits above and we then start the process of selecting additional staff.  That's where the patrol method starts.  I trust my SPL completely.  From staff selection to SD scheduling and organization I work directly with the SPL but he/she makes the calls and organizes everything with my confirmation and/or guidance in the background.  They understand from the start that they are responsible for their staff and their development.  At the same time they know the adults are there for support but they run absolutely everything leading up to the course.  If there are any questions about patrol method on SD1 they are quickly resolved by the time course starts because all of our meetings are run by the youth leaders.    

 

Hopefully this answers some questions.  Sorry it was long winded.  


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#19 TAHAWK

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:20 AM

Wood  Badge may do many things, depending on the quality of the Staff.  

 

It teaches the Patrol Method hardly at all and emphasizes the "troop method."

 

Let's bounce Wood Badge III against BSA's EDGE method.

 

EXPLAIN

In what session are the elements of the Patrol Method explained to the participants?  As those elements have not appeared coherently in BSA literature in decades, it is hardly surprising that the answer is "Nowhere."  Example: The Scout primarily experiences Scouting in the context of his patrol.

 

DEMONSTRATE

Are the patrols largely self-selected groups of friends? 

Do the participants spend most of their time in separate patrol activities?

Does learning primarily take place in a patrol setting vs a troop setting?

Do the participants democratically plan the program for their respective patrols and, through their elected representatives, for the troop as well?

Do the participants elect the SPL?

Are the PLs elected by the other members of their respective patrols?

Who primarily directly leads, the PLs and the SPL they elect or the adult analogs, the Staff?

Does Troop 1 exist for the administrative convenience of the patrols or visa-versa?

 

GUIDE

You cannot "guide" what is not allowed to happen.

I am told that "guidance" happens in the PLC meetings.  Not only is that guidance primarily about troop leadership, which is secondary to patrol leadership in Boy Scouting, but most of the decisions have already been made by the "adults."  After all, the "adults" know best.  The remit of the PLC is to decide limited issues from among a choice set supplied by the "adults."

 

(Do I propose that learners or trainees plan their training?  That would be interesting to try,  but no.  Just don't claim this training primarily or even significantly trains in the Patrol Method by example or by doing unless you are prepared to show how that is true.)

 

ENABLE

What are the PLs enabled to do as leaders as a percentage of what is going on?  One of them is PL when their patrol plans its "backpacking"

menu and patrol gear (See the wagon-loads of gear rumbling down the road.).  Hardly planning the "what, where, and when," only planning the details of what the "adults" have planned.  He or she could also lead  planning the patrol project, the "adults" already having decreed that there should be a "project" and the timing of it.  The patrol's choice how to comply with the "adults" vague charge OR, inconceivably in this authoritarian setting, whether to face the consequences of not obeying the "adults." Far from a "school of democracy."

 

I submit that the claim that Wood Badge teaches the Patrol Method is indefensible.  A far better argument is that It teaches the adult-run troop method.

 

It teaches other things and those primarily by lecture, a path we have been warned against since B-P started the hike.  More school than learning by doing - more school than Scouting.  The "mountain top" is far away.

 

It does serve as a very good tool for networking and the topics taught are significant and useful, just in isolation from the Patrol Method (and, really, the Outdoor Method).

 

Perhaps the current review will turn Wood Badge into something greater.  


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#20 HulkSmash

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 10:23 AM

TAHAWK you make good points.  With that said I guess it depends on how the course you were a part of is run.  The course I went through and the courses I staffed I felt like the patrol method was emphasized heavily through a number of games presentations and activities.  I believe it also depends on how we would define the "patrol method."

 

For a WB course there are things that are pre-determined.  The same is for NYLT.  The participants do not pick their SPL, the patrol they are in or the games they play.  Those would simply be unrealistic to do given the planning and preparation necessary for a successful course.  I feel like the fact that we do not conduct troop elections in these training settings and that we have structured activities does not take away from the ability to teach and instruct the proper methodology.  That's just my outlook and opinion but I see where there are valid points to both sides.  It will always be a struggle to model it 100% in a training environment.  I too am looking forward to how a re-write will help to improve the courses.  


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