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TIL it takes a minimum of 86 days to earn first class


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#1 JosephMD

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 08:06 AM

The new requirements have taken me longer to master than I expected.

 

When I was a scout, you had to be a scout for 1 month, to earn tenderfoot, then tenderfoot for 2 months to earn 2nd class, then 2nd class for 3 months to earn 1st class.

 

I had my board of reviews almost exactly on this schedule too.  I think part of it was that I started in June of 89 and the book was changing in January of 91.  At least a month of that six was working on first aid all the time.

 

Now, you would have to have a pretty super troop to make it in 86 days.  The 10 troop activities in about 12 weeks, including six camp outs would probably be the main hold up. 

 

We have actually found that scout is taking really long for most of the boys.  Requirement 4 is really slowing them down: As an individual or with your patrol, use the EDGE method and mini lessons to teach Internet safety rules, behavior, and "netiquette" to your troop or another patrol

 

 

 

 


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#2 Col. Flagg

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 08:23 AM

@JosephMD, you have to be assuming 2 camp outs per month then. FC 1a requires 6 camp outs, SC 1a takes 3 camp outs. That's NINE (9) camp outs, not just six. Most units camp once a month in my area, and we go for two days. We usually don't do single night camp outs.

 

Were you counting Scout to FC in 86 days? Or SC to FC in 86 days?


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#3 JosephMD

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 08:56 AM

Technically you could earn Scout on your first day while you run your laps for tenderfoot the same day.  + 30 days to complete requirement Tenderfoot requirement 6c, + 28 days to complete 2nd class requirement 7a + 28 days to complete FC requirement 8a. 

 

Now, hopefully I'm not reading the requirements wrong - here is what I have for FC requirement 1a

 

Since joining, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities, six of which include overnight camping. These 10 activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On at least five of the six campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect (such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee).     

 

It is my understanding that that includes the activities that you have done in tenderfoot requirement 1b and 2nd class requirement 1a.  so, a total of 6 camp outs for FC.  I take the words "since joining" as the guide there.

 

Really, the # of days thing is more trivia than anything else though, since in reality, it wouldn't work.


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#4 blw2

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 08:56 AM

Our troop scouters broke up the "patrol of new scouts" because they saw it as not working when most of them after a year had not made TF..... while many of their sons under the old program had made FC within that year. 

 

what happened is now we have groups of friends broken up and separated, and even a worse sense of patrol spirit or unity.


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#5 Col. Flagg

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 09:06 AM

Now, hopefully I'm not reading the requirements wrong - here is what I have for FC requirement 1a
 
Since joining, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities, six of which include overnight camping. These 10 activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On at least five of the six campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect (such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee).     
 
It is my understanding that that includes the activities that you have done in tenderfoot requirement 1b and 2nd class requirement 1a.  so, a total of 6 camp outs for FC.  I take the words "since joining" as the guide there.

 

So let's say it is six camp outs. How can a troop that camps once a month have someone make FC in 86 days? You'd have to camp twice a month for that to happen, no?


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#6 JosephMD

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 09:29 AM

So let's say it is six camp outs. How can a troop that camps once a month have someone make FC in 86 days? You'd have to camp twice a month for that to happen, no?

 

Nope, that won't work for most troops, but I'm sure one could be found that does, some of those huge troops I hear about with over 100 scouts might offer camping twice per month.


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#7 JosephMD

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 09:42 AM

Our troop scouters broke up the "patrol of new scouts" because they saw it as not working when most of them after a year had not made TF..... while many of their sons under the old program had made FC within that year. 

 

what happened is now we have groups of friends broken up and separated, and even a worse sense of patrol spirit or unity.

 

My sons' troop is small with only 15 scouts total.  Most of the newer scouts are in the same patrol, but we just let them organize themselves naturally.  The only one that doesn't really fit in with the patrol with most of the new guys when I look at it is our troop's newest Eagle scout, but he is also the troop guide, so it really works out.

 

The new requirements have definitely slowed things down a bit though.  My youngest son (started in February) is an exception, but that is mainly because the involved parent in me talks to him weekly about what he is doing in scouts, then I leave him alone at meetings and on camp outs.  When he joined we talked about goals, and one of them was to earn Tenderfoot by the May court of honor, and he is really close.  He hopes to have second class by the September court of honor, and First Class by January.  A lot more realistic than his first goal, FC by summer camp!  He has figured out that making a little progress each week is working out well.  The troop doesn't really revolve its program around the advancement, so, scouts have to go and get it, grab the TG, PL, SPL, ASM or whoever and say, I would like to work on this requirement. 


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#8 Col. Flagg

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 09:50 AM

Nope, that won't work for most troops, but I'm sure one could be found that does, some of those huge troops I hear about with over 100 scouts might offer camping twice per month.

 

In my area units with more Scouts actually tend to be more rigid about camping nights and limit them to once a month. I couldn't imagine an SPL and PLC of a large unit planning more than one camp out per month. If they do, it's a good bet it is adult run...at least in my area. No kid has that much time to spend on planning unit activities.

 

Our guys take about a year under the new requirements to make FC. That's around right to make sure they actually know their skills. Of course, we are a medium-sized unit for our area...about 75 Scouts.


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#9 qwazse

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 10:06 AM

If a patrol wanted to hike and camp every other week so that their new scouts would wrap up T2FC ASAP, I would load hem up with locations, maps, first aid drills, gear, activity plans. ... Whatever they needed.

I might even suggest rescheduling meetings for the morning they depart/return so the rest of the troop could see them off!
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#10 JosephMD

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 10:14 AM

In my area units with more Scouts actually tend to be more rigid about camping nights and limit them to once a month. I couldn't imagine an SPL and PLC of a large unit planning more than one camp out per month. If they do, it's a good bet it is adult run...at least in my area. No kid has that much time to spend on planning unit activities.

 

Our guys take about a year under the new requirements to make FC. That's around right to make sure they actually know their skills. Of course, we are a medium-sized unit for our area...about 75 Scouts.

 

My thought was that they would have multiple camp outs per month because they had to break it up to fit in camp sites, fit schedules, etc.  Not that the entire troop would go each time.


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#11 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 10:19 AM

My son is caught up in the 84 day thing. He wanted to do the AT trip this summer, and the requirement is First Class and do the prep hikes, or do the AT last year. Prep hikes are open to everyone, so he's going on those.  But he did not keep accurate records when he did the Tenderfoot physcical fitness. So he has to restart that requirement, and won't make it.

 

Mixed emotions. On one hand I would love to see him go. Heck I want to go. I think it was a good goal for him to get First Class in order to go. On the other hand, he waited to the last minute, despite some reminders about the importance of keeping up with paperwork and planning. Despite me telling him there is no way he will be able to make it now, he still thinks he may be able to pull it off. I think this will be a good lesson for him on time management, and keeping records.

 

 

My thought was that they would have multiple camp outs per month because they had to break it up to fit in camp sites, fit schedules, etc.  Not that the entire troop would go each time.

 

Since BSA no longer allows patrols to camp without adults, most troops only do troop camping. Closest thing I've seen to patrol camping is venture patrols doing a HA activity on their own with 2 adults.


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#12 Torchwood

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 10:21 AM

Our troop scouters broke up the "patrol of new scouts" because they saw it as not working when most of them after a year had not made TF..... while many of their sons under the old program had made FC within that year. 

 

what happened is now we have groups of friends broken up and separated, and even a worse sense of patrol spirit or unity.

That is the Troop Guide's failure, assuming of course that you had one.


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#13 JosephMD

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 10:25 AM

That is the Troop Guide's failure, assuming of course that you had one.

 

I suppose you could look at it as the next troop guide's opportunity!


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#14 Torchwood

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 10:27 AM

I suppose you could look at it as the next troop guide's opportunity!

Absolutely, but I would also have been having regular SMCs with the Troop Guide if I wasn't seeing progress with the NSP's advancement.


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#15 Col. Flagg

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 10:31 AM

My thought was that they would have multiple camp outs per month because they had to break it up to fit in camp sites, fit schedules, etc.  Not that the entire troop would go each time.

 

Nice idea for some. Would not work in my area. Just too many other demands on time across the board. Once a month is all most can afford.

 

 

My son is caught up in the 84 day thing. He wanted to do the AT trip this summer, and the requirement is First Class and do the prep hikes, or do the AT last year. 

 

Doing the AT should be more a function of his physical abilities and his Scout skills combined. If he were in our troop we'd evaluate him based on his ability to carry gear, meet the physical and psychological demands, and his ability to demonstrate needed skills (camping, hiking, first aid, cooking, etc.). If he met those, we don't care if he's Scout or Eagle, he can go.


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#16 qwazse

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 10:54 AM

That is the Troop Guide's failure, assuming of course that you had one.

i never blame the failures of the students on the teacher.
There is a book. Read.
There is rope. Tie.
There is a weekend. Camp.
There is food. Cook.
There is land. Navigate.
There are your fellow scours. Lead.

The minute I picked up my handbook, I knew exactly the minimum time it would take for T2FC. Still took me more than a year, and my patrol leaders were the best.
But, on Saturdays, there was cartoons, sci-Fi theaters, and Wide World of Sports.
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#17 Stosh

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 02:54 PM

Activities other than troop and patrol meeting can mean more than just campouts.  As far as I know a patrol can bike, hike, service project, etc. without adult supervision.


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Stosh

 

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#18 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 09:14 PM

Doing the AT should be more a function of his physical abilities and his Scout skills combined. If he were in our troop we'd evaluate him based on his ability to carry gear, meet the physical and psychological demands, and his ability to demonstrate needed skills (camping, hiking, first aid, cooking, etc.). If he met those, we don't care if he's Scout or Eagle, he can go.

 

First Class Scouts are traditionally supposed to be able to handle themselves in the outdoors by them selves. Yeah we met, and unfortunately had, a First Class who was pretty useless camping. But having the basic outdoor skills is one reason for the First Class. The other is an attempt to limit the number of folks going. The section we are going wants groups no larger than 10. We only able to have 5 adults go, so we can not split into 3 groups, only 2.


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#19 qwazse

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 08:42 AM

First Class Scouts are traditionally supposed to be able to handle themselves in the outdoors by them selves. Yeah we met, and unfortunately had, a First Class who was pretty useless camping. But having the basic outdoor skills is one reason for the First Class. The other is an attempt to limit the number of folks going. The section we are going wants groups no larger than 10. We only able to have 5 adults go, so we can not split into 3 groups, only 2.

There is something to the maintenance of fitness at each rank.

 

Moreover, attention to detail is something I expect from through-hikers. That includes record-keeping. (E.g., small note-book and pencils are required equipment for wilderness excursions.) I'm sorry that E-94's son had a clock reset. But if it was a result of him not being willing to stay organized starting from day 1 after Scout rank, then maybe he needs to think about how that may affect his performance on an adventure.

 

For my venturers, it's pretty organic. I approve plans based on their commitment to training and sharpening their first-class skills. We have established land-navigation days months in advance, half of them are blowing off that commitment. This directly impacts their vision for independent hiking in wilderness areas. They have to earn the trust of myself and one other adult before we allow them to insert on their own and rendezvous with us in the evening. So, in their case, physical fitness is not the problem (in fact their sports commitments are what's affecting attendance), but map-and-compass savvy is.

 

Don't get me wrong we'll still hike in the same area, but I'll revise their plan if they don't sharpen the skills as I expect them to.

 

Anyway, that's how I transition our youth from "be prepared" to "lead the adventure". It's not about some oval patch you earned once upon a time. It's about years later being a first class scout, the concept, not the patch.

 

So back to E-94's young son. If he goes to his leaders, points out that he blew off the fitness tracking requirement, but did all the others, and has been exercising routinely regardless - including conditioning hikes, and can boldly say that having learned his lesson, he is their 1st class scout, patch pending  ... I'd like the leaders to consider scheduling SMCs for at least one or two of those ranks at some point(s) on the AT. :)


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#20 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 09:40 AM

So back to E-94's young son. If he goes to his leaders, points out that he blew off the fitness tracking requirement, but did all the others, and has been exercising routinely regardless - including conditioning hikes, and can boldly say that having learned his lesson, he is their 1st class scout, patch pending  ... I'd like the leaders to consider scheduling SMCs for at least one or two of those ranks at some point(s) on the AT. :)

 

Actually the trek leader is adamant on the First Class rank because we already have 14 or 15 Scouts and 5 adults going and cannot really open it any more. And there are 3 my son's buddies who want to go. Concern is if he allows my son, he'll need to allow them, and others. And we are limited to groups of 10 max. The Scouts already got creative in setting up 2 groups on the same trail.

 

I am actually not too concerned; I only asked if he met all the requirement but the BOR and the PT requirements because the wife wanted me to. SWMBO went into momma bear mode for a bit until she finally comprehended that he was reminded multiple times to pay attention to the requirements and keep accurate records.

 

I think he learned his lesson. Buckling up on things. I'd rather he learned this lesson as a Scout, than as a 17 year old Life Scout with 2 months before turning 18 and still needing Personal Management MB.


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