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Catholic Diocese boots out GS


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#41 Lurking...

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 03:33 PM

I'm sure that one's local church isn't going to host a neo-nazi or clan rally on premises just because they think they can pick up a convert or two.  Discrimination isn't necessarily the evil word everyone makes it out to be.  To a certain extent EVERYONE does it.


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#42 NJCubScouter

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 03:35 PM

Any anti, or pro, source should be taken with the proverbial "grain of salt.  That's why it's so tough to council on the duty and obligation of a citizen to be informed.  Everywhere you go, it's spin. spin, spin.

 

I tend to apply multiple grains.  Truckloads, sometimes.  For example, when I look at that site and see several favorable references to a competing girl's scouting-type organization, I have to wonder about the motivation behind what I am reading.

 

None of which, as I said before, has anything to do with the absolute right of a religious organization to allow or disallow use of its facilities and resources as it sees fit, regardless of whether the facts on which the decision is based are true, false, opinions* or some combination of all of those.

 

*In which case they are not facts and can be neither "true" nor "false", but you know what I mean.


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#43 Col. Flagg

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 04:41 PM

What it looks like is an anti-Girl Scouts web site.  Based on the original article linked in this thread, the GSUSA denies many of the affiliations alleged in this web site.

 

No, I wasn't citing that site, but rather the 3rd party news organizations that originally reported on the topic in question...which the web site uses as their original source. The Imperial Valley Press, while not CNN, is a news organization...as are many of the other sources. But these days citing even offical news organizations is no guarantee of non-partisanism. 


Edited by Col. Flagg, 03 May 2017 - 04:41 PM.

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#44 TAHAWK

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 06:32 PM

*
POPULAR

Only certain forms of discrimination are socially disfavored or, under certain circumstances, illegal.  

 

BSA teaches "values," which often amounts to teaching discrimination in what company you keep.

 

For a church to discriminate against those who support what they regard as murder is consistent with our national values, whether you would agree with that church or not.  You are equally free not to associate with those persons if you find their opinion abhorrent.   Freedom of religion.  Freedom of speech. Freedom of Association.  All that American stuff so disliked by some at Berkeley.


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#45 Carpenb94m

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 06:25 AM

I do not "officially" endorse stosh. But I do agree with and support him and his comments.
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#46 Lurking...

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 06:57 AM

:)  I don't "officially" endorse the indiscriminate use of discrimination.  There's a reason why the root words are similar.  Indiscriminate means without reason, cause, or fair/just judgment, just random application of harm to others is not appropriate.

 

Discriminate, incriminate, indiscriminate, criminal, all come from the root word crime, and how we use words to imply what that means, i.e. the judgment of guilt.

 

You cannot use our facilities because we don't like you and what you are doing, reflects a different judgment than we do not allow the use of our facilities for such activities because it goes against what we have judged to be inappropriate.  One is a judgement against the person, the other is a judgment against the activity.  Sometimes it's difficult to tell discrimination because of this.  Other times it it explicitly obvious. 

 

When I commented we all discriminate, it means we all judge, sometimes with due justice (discriminate) sometimes merely randomly without justice (indiscriminate).  Sometimes we judge the person, sometimes the activity.  And sometimes we even make the judgment BEFORE even meeting the person or experiencing the activity (pre-judice).

 

Judicial process of thought and reason are acceptable to me,  Pre-judicial processes and reason are not.  Indiscriminate rules are a problem for me, but discriminate rules have thought and reason behind them.

 

Sometimes we need to actually think about what we are saying rather than just spouting out words that sound good, might be socially PC, but have a meaning far different than what we think it means.


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#47 David CO

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 10:17 PM

I see a Catholic youth (youth/family) program forming that does not involve a generic,outside youth program which may be doing less than hoped, from the Church viewpoint, to boost youth involvement in the Church.

 

A hard fact, there are fewer Catholic children attending a Catholic school than there are Cub Scouts in the US. Our local elementary/secondary school closes this June. My younger son's weekend Confirmation classes resemble Scouting in terms of activities, service requirements, and time commitment (more reading/study). More and more time conflicts.  Back in the day when more Catholics attended Catholic schools and Catechism classes, the Church taught religion and the troop taught scouting with the Scout Oath and Law as the bridge.

 

http://www.ncea.org/...chool_Data.aspx

 

My $0.01

 

I am seeing the same thing in my town.  Over the past 5 years, our Catholic schools have lost about a third of their enrollment. The grade school and middle school have been consolidated.


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#48 RememberSchiff

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Posted 07 May 2017 - 05:32 AM

Without an increasing number of first generation, non-Catholic students, our local Catholic high school would close. Their parents prioritize paying the tuition for a safe and disciplined academic environment that is found less often in public schools.


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#49 TAHAWK

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Posted 07 May 2017 - 09:39 AM

The predominate denomination of the students at our east-side Lutheran high school is Baptist, despite which the Lutheran Church continues the subsidized operation.


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#50 MattR

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Posted 07 May 2017 - 04:06 PM

I am seeing the same thing in my town.  Over the past 5 years, our Catholic schools have lost about a third of their enrollment. The grade school and middle school have been consolidated.

That's a dramatic drop. Any idea why?

 

Is it possible that it's similar to the reason why there are fewer scouts?

 

I found this about Catholic schools: In the 10 years since the 2006 school year, 1,511 schools were reported closed or consolidated (19.9%), while 314 school openings were reported. Due to different definitions used by dioceses for consolidations, closings and their transitions into new configurations, along with actual new schools opened, the actual decrease in number of schools since 2006 is 1,064 schools (14.0%). The number of students declined by 409,384 (17.6%). The most seriously impacted have been elementary schools.

 

I'm not at all picking on Catholics, it's just that I see a similarity between why a parent would put a kid in a catholic school and boy scouts. I'm just wondering if whatever is driving parents away from Catholic schools is similar to what's driving parents away from scouts. We've seen numerous packs fold in the past year. It's usually a case of nobody wants to volunteer. That says to me that it's become too expensive (money or time) or less important.

 

I would like to know why there were 314 school openings.


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#51 David CO

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Posted 07 May 2017 - 06:15 PM

Scandals.


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#52 RememberSchiff

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Posted 07 May 2017 - 06:40 PM

I'm just wondering if whatever is driving parents away from Catholic schools is similar to what's driving parents away from scouts.

 

I would like to know why there were 314 school openings.

Agree about scandals. Cost too. Are vouchers coming? Another is a lack of services and accommodations (transportation, IEP and 504's). Around here IMO, Catholic education is one size fits all.

 

Two or more schools close and a new school is opened. Kansas City closed two suburban elementary schools and opened an urban school.

http://www.kansascit...le57111728.html


Edited by RememberSchiff, 07 May 2017 - 07:06 PM.

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#53 Chadamus

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Posted 07 May 2017 - 09:36 PM

As a parent faced with a $10,000+ tuition decision in a few months, I can say cost can be a major reason for some.
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#54 Peregrinator

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 08:57 AM

The scandals have certainly played a part, but Catholic school enrollment has been declining for decades. Tuition goes up, enrollment declines. It's a never-ending cycle. And frankly, there is not much reason to pay tuition so your kids can learn the same thing in Catholic school that they would learn in public school.


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#55 Chadamus

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 09:06 AM

The Catholic school curriculum is significantly different than the one offered by public schools in my neck of the wooks. Cursive penmanship to give one minor example. A religious education is a major example. Your mileage may vary obviously.
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#56 CalicoPenn

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 09:18 AM

 

Thanks!!


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#57 RememberSchiff

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 09:20 AM

The scandals have certainly played a part, but Catholic school enrollment has been declining for decades. Tuition goes up, enrollment declines. It's a never-ending cycle. And frankly, there is not much reason to pay tuition so your kids can learn the same thing in Catholic school that they would learn in public school.

 

Good points. Our Catholic schools still do speed arithmetic drills (100 problem sheets), memorize multiplication tables, no calculators,..

 

For my older son, Catholic class size was smaller from elementary school through high school (12-16 Catholic vs 28 public). Private schools have a huge discipline advantage - they do not have to take or keep your child enrolled. Don't follow the rules - good bye. Our lay teachers were all ex-public teachers who took a huge pay cut to teach in a safer environment.

 

His high school took an enrollment hit when the sports director was fired. He was more popular and "winning" than the whole administration, BUT he hired great coaches who cursed and maybe did some recruiting, like Notre Dame. Now the high school no longer had a sports director who knew all the college AD's on the East Coast. No sense paying Catholic tuition if a college sports scholarship is less likely.

 

My $0.02


Edited by RememberSchiff, 08 May 2017 - 09:21 AM.

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#58 TAHAWK

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 09:23 AM

"And frankly, there is not much reason to pay tuition so your kids can learn the same thing in Catholic school that they would learn in public school."

But some people live in Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Newark, St. Louis, Jackson, Mobile, Fresno, Birmingham. Nevada  . . . .

 

So they don't learn the same thing(s).   :( 
 


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#59 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 09:54 AM

One reason why those number dropped could be Hurricane Katrina. The New Orleans metro areas not only had the largest number of private schools in the US, but also the largest number of Catholic schools.  Lot of people who moved out of the NO metro area never returned. I know my mom never did return, and my old troop died when most of the leaders and Scouts did not return.

 

Regarding public versus Catholic, it depends on where you are located. I know in New Orleans, you want to go to Catholic school, even if you are not Catholic. My mom worked for the public school system, and sent me to Catholic school. I knew a bunch of folks whose parents were teachers in the public school system, but they attended Catholic schools. Heck, both parents of one girl I dated in high school were PRINCIPALS (emphasis) in the public school system, but sent both her and her sister to Catholic school.

 

Regarding discipline, That is a fact. Some of the things my mom had to deal with at work would not have been tolerated at my school. And the principals acted as if their hands were tied. And at the high school I attended, we had folks waiting for teaching positions to open up. One of my friends from college took a significant pay cut to teach at my alma mater.

 

I know one of the things that made my Catholic high school affordable was fundraising. Parents and alumni gave what they could. I would not have been able to go to my HS if it wasn't for financial aid. In fact the highlight of my senior year was being able to  thank the alumnus who gave the endowed scholarship I was on.


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#60 David CO

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 10:00 AM

The scandals have certainly played a part, but Catholic school enrollment has been declining for decades. Tuition goes up, enrollment declines. It's a never-ending cycle. And frankly, there is not much reason to pay tuition so your kids can learn the same thing in Catholic school that they would learn in public school.

 

Are you talking about common core?  


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