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"10 kinds of wild animals (birds, mammals, reptiles, fish, mollusks)"


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#41 qwazse

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 10:29 AM

Oops. I only read 2nd class #4 as referenced in the original post.

I didn't realize 1st Class #5a did not have parallel construction.

 

I guess the English Hornbeam on Muddy Creek that stumped an adult and me wouldn't count. ... After all that time drawing the bark pattern and tracing the leaves, and pulling references once home. (Daughter couldn't believe we spent so much time perplexed about that.)

 

I approve of Flagg's approach. Defer to the 12 year-old botanist.


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#42 Col. Flagg

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 11:15 AM

A middle ground that you come close to is to argue that a given plant, brought here in merely historic time, has been so naturalized as to be "native." That, to me, is easier to defend than  "do not limit their list of ten to just 'native' plants."

 

You must be related to the young man I referenced.  ;)  He argued that, depending on when you are defining as the time period, the term "native" is relative. He then went off on all sorts of things like honeysuckle, feral hogs, horses, crazy rasberry ants (I had to google that after thinking he was puling my leg...wasn't)  and a host of other things that are now "native" to our area that were, at one time, an invasive species.

 

I learned more from that kid than any other kid in our troop. He is now the Nature MB counselor for the troop. His class is always packed!


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#43 perdidochas

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 11:45 AM

 Unless it's spring migration and you're on a certain boardwalk in Northern Ohio on Lake Erie where you might find 20 or more of 54 species of warblers in a couple of hours.  :)

 

 

I think we've identified the biggest problem with the requirements - the problem is us - and specifically adults.

 

Identify or show evidence of 10 different kinds of animals.  You're average 10-12 year old is going to be able to understand that at a basic level.  You need 10, they need to be different, and they can't be plants or fungi.  Only adults would try to parse that by phylum, class, order, family, genus or species.  An 11 year old is going to just stick with kingdom, where animal means mammals, fish, birds, molluscs, reptiles, amphibians and insects.  The requirement's limitations are animals and wild (and 10).  It only gives examples of animals when it uses "such as" - that doesn't leave out reptiles, amphibians and insects - it just leaves them unsaid..  The boys can figure that out.  You average 11 year old isn't going to see a dog or cat in the wild and think "oh, feral animal - that's wild too".  They're not going to count dogs, cats, horses, cow, sheep, chickens and pig as wild (unless they live somewhere where there truly are wild horses and wild boar).  Let's give the boys some credit here.  Saying all that, we as adults can push back a bit at times.  Identifying something as a bird, rabbit, deer, fish is really just not enough.  Tell us what kind of deer, what kind of rabbit,what kind of bird, what kind of fish.  That's the point of the requirement.  Of course, if their evidence of deer is deer tracks, you may need to settle for deer if you're in an area where white-tailed and mule deer actually mix.

 

Sometimes though, we write requirements thinking we're being clever.  Identify 10 different kinds of native plants?  You better have a good plant id field guide because a lot of plants out there that folks might call native truly aren't native, if the definition of native is a plant that has not been imported from elsewhere.  Dandelions were brought to the US 100's of years ago - not native.  Queen Anne's Lace - not native.  Narrow-leaved Cattail - not native.  Canada Thistle - not native.  Oxeye Daisy - not native.  I would even go so far as to suggest that for most of us, most of the plants we are most familiar with and can identify most readily are actually not native at all.  I suspect that what the requirement writer was getting at was don't identify plants that were planted in gardens or in cropland.  A better requirement would have been to identify 10 "wild" plants and then identify them as native or introduced and if they are invasive or not-invasive.

 

Oh, and if a boy identifies 10 different kinds of Chickadees in the US, forget Cornell, let's send him to Oxford (there are only 7 species of Chickadees on the US - if he discovers three more, he deserves better than Cornell).

 

Well, still being able to tell the difference between 10 different species of warblers is a feat.  Anyway, based on my years of working with T21 Scouts, that isn't a real problem. 


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#44 TAHAWK

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 06:53 PM

I have no problems with Scouts.  It's the adults at training who come with lists of questions about requirements.  Three weeks to the next round.

 

Some here have said ignore the requirements - usually by substituting better, logical words that could or should have been said but clearly were not.  That is not an option for me, at least, when training Scoutmasters and SAs.

 

Some have said interpret words this way or that.  If native means naturalized in historic times and wild means (individual animals) that are not pets, the biggest quibble goes away.  (After all, the "Eastern Coyote" is supposedly a coyote-domestic dog hybrid.)

 

No one here has really dealt with "identify or show evidence of at least 10 kinds"   That has been brought up three prior years running by someone at training.  Many adults seems focused on finding the easiest possible way for a Scout to get rank.

 

CP, Mollusca is not a Kingdom.  Animalia is.  But I simply tell them this is not about binomial nomenclature or formal taxonomy.  I only brought it up because whoever wrote the requirement knows far less than I do about classification and put a phyla on the same level as classes.   I haven't dealt with classification since I was a lab assistant in Zoology as a history major (only one willing to deal with snakes) in 1964.


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#45 Back Pack

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 07:13 AM

Identify= Using the five senses recognize the animal.

Show= Have physical evidence you can visually show the counselor. That's anything left by the animal.
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#46 TAHAWK

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 07:41 AM

This is a kind of plant because it has leaves and plants have leaves.

This is a different kind of leaf.  That's two.

This is a nut.  That's three
This is a different nut. That's four.
This is a seed. That's five.
This is a different seed. That's six.
This is bark.
Different bark.
Wood
A root.
Each came from a different plant in the woods.
Evidence of 10 different kinds of wild plant ??  Don't have to identify any of them as that would be "identify"

Edited by TAHAWK, 25 April 2017 - 07:41 AM.

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#47 Back Pack

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 09:27 AM

Identify= @TAHAWK's name is x, he's a x year old man living in x with his wife, 10 kids and likes ice cream.

Not

Identify= @TAHAWK is a semi-gelatinous carbon based life form of unknown origin.
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#48 qwazse

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 09:34 AM

This is where seasoned scouters keep the BS out of the BS of A.

 

Tell your word-smithy IOLS students: "Which scout would you hire to weed your lawn or garden (or for some, vineyards and orchards)? The one who shows you all the different plants he's pulled from it, or the one who's identified the desired from undesired?"

 

Also, this is where you point out the importance of youth sign-offs. Controversies like this should be reviewed by the PLC who should then decide what the uniform course of action within their troop should be. Remind your students that, were they earning this rank from their SPL while in service to their troop, their search for the lowest common denominator would be a source of derision among their youth for years to come.

 

P.S. - My camporees growing up involved scavenger hunts of, among other things, specific plants. We therefore memorized the pictures of all of the plants named in the BSHB. Our commissioner stumped us sorely when he added "hawkweed" to the list. We were the "college town" troop, and our patrols had to concede defeat to some "country bumpkins" on that one. Not our proudest moment.


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#49 TAHAWK

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 02:38 PM

Identify= @TAHAWK's name is x, he's a x year old man living in x with his wife, 10 kids and likes ice cream.

Not

Identify= @TAHAWK is a semi-gelatinous carbon based life form of unknown origin.

 

You raise a different but also important issue: how much information is required to "identify"?   Spruce.  Alberta Spruce.  Dwarf Alberta Spruce.  Surely, as I have opined, not the Latin Genus and Species.

 

 

Try this on for size.  If you do not in some sense "identify" how do you know you have sign of ten different "kinds"?   The leaf, bark, and nut may come from a single "kind."

 

 

4.2.1.2 The Scout Is Tested

The unit leader authorizes those who may test and pass the Scout on rank requirements. They might include his patrol leader, senior patrol leader, an assistant unit leader, another Scout, or the unit leader himself.

 

BSA, Guide to Advancement


Edited by TAHAWK, 25 April 2017 - 02:43 PM.

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#50 Col. Flagg

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 02:52 PM

I think most units I have seen treat "identify" as knowing common names and differentiation, such as pecan tree, peach tree, red oak, etc. I have not seen units use genus and species. Same with animals. Domestic animals are out. Squirrel is okay but they usually teach the difference between fox squirrel and grey squirrel.

 

@TAHAWK, if you are looking for standardization on this subject I don't think you will get it. The language of the requirements do not allow standardization of teaching.

 

If you are looking for options, you will certainly get plenty of those. ;)


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#51 Stosh

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:00 PM

All from the genus Quercus

 

Red Oaks

  Northern Red Oak

  Southern Red Oak

  Black Oak

  Pin Oak

  Scarlet Oak

  Shumard Oak

  Cherry Bark Oak

  Nuttall Oak

  Turkey Oak

  Blackjack Oak

 

White Oaks

  White Oak

  Burr Oak

  Overcup Oak

  Post Oak

  Oregon White Oak

  Swamp White Oak

  California White Oak

 

Chestnut Oaks

  Swamp Chestnut Oak

  Chestnut Oak

  Chinkapin Oak

 

Willow Oaks

  Live Oak

  Willow Oak

  Water Oak

  Laurel Oak

  Shingle Oak


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#52 CalicoPenn

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 09:30 AM

I have no problems with Scouts.  It's the adults at training who come with lists of questions about requirements.  Three weeks to the next round.

 

Some here have said ignore the requirements - usually by substituting better, logical words that could or should have been said but clearly were not.  That is not an option for me, at least, when training Scoutmasters and SAs.

 

Some have said interpret words this way or that.  If native means naturalized in historic times and wild means (individual animals) that are not pets, the biggest quibble goes away.  (After all, the "Eastern Coyote" is supposedly a coyote-domestic dog hybrid.)

 

No one here has really dealt with "identify or show evidence of at least 10 kinds"   That has been brought up three prior years running by someone at training.  Many adults seems focused on finding the easiest possible way for a Scout to get rank.

 

CP, Mollusca is not a Kingdom.  Animalia is.  But I simply tell them this is not about binomial nomenclature or formal taxonomy.  I only brought it up because whoever wrote the requirement knows far less than I do about classification and put a phyla on the same level as classes.   I haven't dealt with classification since I was a lab assistant in Zoology as a history major (only one willing to deal with snakes) in 1964.

 

I don't believe I said Mollusca is a kingdom - I believe I said Mollusks are part of the Animal Kingdom - but perhaps I wasn't clear.

 

The requirement is to identify or show evidence of 10 different kinds of animals - the rest of that sentence is just filler really.  Let's think about this from an 11 year-olds perspective.  Animal means anything within the animal kingdom - whether its a phylum, a class, and order, a family, a genus or a species.  This is a second class requirement - it's not Zoology Merit Badge (oh right, the BSA discontinued the Zoology merit badge).   Think the common usage of the words, not the scientific uses.

 

As for 10 kinds - you need 10 kinds.  A white-tailed deer is one kind.  An American Robin is one kind.  An Eastern Coyote (which appears to be a genetic mixture of Western Coyote, Western and Eastern Wolves (whatever "Western" and "Eastern" wolf means - Timber Wolf?  Red Wolf?  Mixtures?)) and Domestic Dog is one kind.  So what is a kind?  For most of us, it's 11-year old speak for Species.  Here's the thing though - unless the BSA has defined it in the BSHB, then you just have to rely on people's common sense.  If a Scout unit wants to accept Bear, Bird, Rabbit, Deer, Insect, Clam etc., which can encompass dozens to thousands of individual species, we just have to accept it.

 

I think the same goes for native plants.  If you follow the definition of native that most conservation groups and government organizations use, then you're essentially limited to the plants that existed here before European settlers got here.  If that's the case, then your standard field is likely to be out of bounds (there is a reason they are often called Eurasian meadows) because almost all of the species in them are not-native.  For training purposes, I think you just have to spell out that at its most basic level, native means not-domesticated - it means no food crops, no flowers planted in gardens, no lawn grass and hope for the best because this isn't Botany Merit Badge (oh wait, the BSA eliminated that merit badge too).

 

When training, I think we need to start emphasizing more that people need to start thinking like 10-15 year olds.  Its really not about the easiest way to reach rank - it is about not reading more in to the requirements than is stated.


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#53 NJCubScouter

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 10:30 AM

As for 10 kinds - you need 10 kinds.  A white-tailed deer is one kind.  An American Robin is one kind.  An Eastern Coyote (which appears to be a genetic mixture of Western Coyote, Western and Eastern Wolves (whatever "Western" and "Eastern" wolf means - Timber Wolf?  Red Wolf?  Mixtures?)) and Domestic Dog is one kind.  So what is a kind?  For most of us, it's 11-year old speak for Species.  Here's the thing though - unless the BSA has defined it in the BSHB, then you just have to rely on people's common sense.  If a Scout unit wants to accept Bear, Bird, Rabbit, Deer, Insect, Clam etc., which can encompass dozens to thousands of individual species, we just have to accept it.

 

 

I think bear, rabbit, deer and clam all qualify as a "kind" when viewed from an 11-year-old viewpoint, and I believe our troop would accept those.  Same for coyote and wolf, without the regional variants.  I think "bird" is too general, but "robin" or "hawk" is fine.  Similarly, I think "fish" is too general but "bass" or "trout" are fine, even though there are a number of different species of each.  So I don't think "species" is the key.  I don't think "kind", as used in the requirement, necessarily means any particular level on the taxonomic scale.  I think it will usually be somewhere in the genus/family range, maybe sometimes a species, as Wikipedia is telling me that all coyotes are the same species.


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#54 TAHAWK

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 11:02 AM

I would pick almost anyone here to do the rewrite.  Council?  Not so much: "The Council reguires that BALOO-trained leaders are also trained in Wouth Protection. The BSA reguires Wouth Protection training for all registered volunteers."


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#55 qwazse

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 11:04 AM

I would pick almost anyone here to do the rewrite.  Council?  Not so much: "The Council reguires that BALOO-trained leaders are also trained in Wouth Protection. The BSA reguires Wouth Protection training for all registered volunteers."

Sounds like I have an weevil twin in the typo dept.


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#56 Col. Flagg

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 11:08 AM

I would pick almost anyone here to do the rewrite.  Council?  Not so much: "The Council reguires that BALOO-trained leaders are also trained in Wouth Protection. The BSA reguires Wouth Protection training for all registered volunteers."

 

Don't Elmer Fudd-shame. ;)  


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#57 TAHAWK

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 11:13 AM

Sounds like I have an weevil twin in the typo dept.

 

I kant tipe ether.  Butt itz knot mi jobb to doo the kounsil webbcite.


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#58 CalicoPenn

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:37 PM

Werd!


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#59 TAHAWK

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 12:45 PM

Gǣð ā Wyrd swā hīo scel!


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