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Philmont question - Arrival target time each day?


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#21 Back Pack

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 06:25 AM

Our assigned ranger, we first called him Super Scout but by the next day his nickname was shortened to SS and meant something different. Anyway, he insisted we be on the trail by 0700 fed or not, gear wet or dry. Let's Go!  Go.Go. After he left us, we slacked some, but our gear was dry and we were not eating cereal on the trail - a happy balance.


So much for letting the crew lead lead.
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#22 TAHAWK

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 07:55 AM

Three Ranger experiences.  Two were fine.  Other than the obligatory Shakedown, made suggestions to/asked questions of  the Crew Leader.  

 

No. 3 (the "Aggie") was more directive AND insisted no more than one canteen per hiker needed and no insulation layer.  Fortunately, we smuggled extra water bladders as the itin included a period of 21 hrs with no water source in a rugged stretch of terrain.  Unfortunately, when it got cold (40 and high wind/rain/sleet), we had to bag three Scouts who got hyothermic.  (The Scouts from our troop had retrieved their insulation and extra water bottles when the Agie wandered off after the Shakedown.  The three from other units had been more impressed by titles.)


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#23 RememberSchiff

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 07:58 AM

So much for letting the crew lead lead.

In addition to showing us the outdoor do's and dont's, he hoped our PL would adopt his leadership style and beliefs which may have been better suited for coaching football.


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#24 Back Pack

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 08:27 AM

Three Ranger experiences.  Two were fine.  Other than the obligatory Shakedown, made suggestions to/asked questions of  the Crew Leader.  
 
No. 3 (the "Aggie") was more directive AND insisted no more than one canteen per hiker needed and no insulation layer.  Fortunately, we smuggled extra water bladders as the itin included a period of 21 hrs with no water source in a rugged stretch of terrain.  Unfortunately, when it got cold (40 and high wind/rain/sleet), we had to bag three Scouts who got hyothermic.  (The Scouts from our troop had retrieved their insulation and extra water bottles when the Agie wandered off after the Shakedown.  The three from other units had been more impressed by titles.)


Sorry but that's when the Advisor steps in and over rules stupid decisions. Philmont seven says 4 liters per person minimum.
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#25 TAHAWK

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 09:02 AM

Long "step" from a meeting half a mile away.  

 

And your "Philmont seven," can't find it.  Please help.

 

The issue was personal water container capacity.  The Aggie told them one liter/quart.  We had trained them to have three - four liters personal carrying capacity.  Plus, we had the water bladders - 6 gals worth.

 

Here is what I can find today:

 

http://www.philmonts...404/Safety.aspx [Includes the incorrect statement that filters don't eliminate viruses - untrue of easily-available filters for several years]

 

http://www.philmonts...rSelection.aspx

 

http://www.planphilm...ter-containers/

 

http://www.philmonts...ToAdventure.pdf[p. 21]


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#26 Stosh

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 09:34 AM

My only experience with Philmont was with an adult led troop which meant everyone was on the trail by 7:00 am and we reached our destination by noon each day regardless of elevation or distance.  Bleeding blisters were the norm for everyone except me.  I did not race for an hour and then break for 10 minutes.  I kept a steady pace and did not take breaks except for breakfast on the trail about 9:00 am.  The group constantly broke into two due to the hurry attitude of the SM.  He didn't hassle me much for "lagging" behind, but then I didn't blister and I wasn't dead tired when we reached our destination each day.  We covered 110 miles and got in all 5 of the major peaks in the reservation. 

 

So, one can do the fast and furious and miss out on everything along the trail or one can take their time, pace oneself and enjoy the trek.  Both worked even if the two "attitudes" differed and some of the boys had difficulty.

 

It was interesting that only one other adult was allowed to stay back with the "old laggard", but when it came time to designate a different adult to stay with me, there always ensued a heated discussion.  None of the boys were allowed the steady pace option, only one adult, that always was an argument as to who would lag with me.  Eventually it boiled down to the one adult that insisted he stay back with me and that discussion stopped after the first couple of days.  No one other than the SM and the trek lead (high school football player) wanted the fast and furious option.

 

Slow and steady, wise use of time and resources, and in spite of the two options, I was the first one on top of each peak when the time came.  The SM never asked how I was able to do that.  :)


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#27 desertrat77

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 11:15 AM

Our ranger disliked our crew from the start. 

 

Granted, the ranger had good reason for his attitude.  Long running SM/ASM conflict/power plays, and on-going battles between certain scouts.   I was used to the dysfunction and learned to keep my distance.  Outsiders were always dismayed and our ranger was no exception.

 

The ranger may have approached the SM in private about the dynamics of our crew.  Either way, he would not have gotten very far due to the SM's dictatorial style.

 

(Exhibit A:  in the SM's office in our scout building, he had a framed picture of Hitler and Mussolini right behind his desk.)


Edited by desertrat77, 15 April 2017 - 11:17 AM.

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#28 Back Pack

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 01:47 PM

Long "step" from a meeting half a mile away.  
 
And your "Philmont seven," can't find it.  Please help.
 
The issue was personal water container capacity.  The Aggie told them one liter/quart.  We had trained them to have three - four liters personal carrying capacity.  Plus, we had the water bladders - 6 gals worth.
 
Here is what I can find today:
 
http://www.philmonts...404/Safety.aspx [Includes the incorrect statement that filters don't eliminate viruses - untrue of easily-available filters for several years]
 
http://www.philmonts...rSelection.aspx
 
http://www.planphilm...ter-containers/
 
http://www.philmonts...ToAdventure.pdf[p. 21]


Snide are we?

Below is the packing guide. Note the number of liter containers per person they recommend.

Since rangers are adults I always make sure I am close by and hear what they tell my crew. That's my job while there.

http://www.philmonts...hattoBring.aspx
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#29 TAHAWK

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 04:43 PM

"Snide"?  I don't understand.  I was literally a half mile away when Aggie was culling out the water bottles and insulation.  I didn't learn it had happened until Day 3.  How is it "snide" to point out that fact?

 

The capacity of containers in a couple of the places I linked agreed with your opinion about a minimum of 4 liters capacity per person.  You have a problem with someone citing opinions that agree with yours?  That's a new one for me.

 

Or perhaps you are offended because someone else in Scouting asked you for help in understanding your reference to "the Philmont Seven."  I Googled could not find anything about your "Philmont seven."  So far as I can tell, it is also not referenced at http://www.philmonts...hattoBring.aspx 

 

As Contingent Adviser I had a list of things said to be my responsibility, including attending that meeting  Watching over the Ranger, in hindsight, might have been on the list, but it was not, and did not occur to me.  The four other adults who were at the Shakedown, simply accepted the Ranger as THE authority.


Edited by TAHAWK, 15 April 2017 - 04:44 PM.

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#30 Back Pack

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 06:19 PM

Snide for pointing out an obvious unintentional spelling error..twice. But I'll leave it there.
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#31 TAHAWK

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 08:56 PM

What spelling error?

 

You are really working at being offended.


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#32 Col. Flagg

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 08:51 AM

I suspect he meant to say "Philmont even" and not "Philmont seven", and you pointed it out. Maybe the thought you were mocking him given how it was quoted and the lack of smiley faces makes it tough to know if it was meant jokingly or otherwise. I'd just let it go.

 

That not withstanding, Philmont was pretty clear with us that 4 liters of water was considered a per person minimum.Our ranger hammered it home over and over.


Edited by Col. Flagg, 17 April 2017 - 08:51 AM.

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#33 TAHAWK

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 09:08 AM

If you assume the worst . . . . 


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#34 Stosh

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 10:51 AM

We always assume the worst, it's human nature to always find fault.

 

People do things correctly 99% of the time, but the one time they slip up, we remember.... and often times we don't let them forget it either.

 

If it involves child molestation or abuse, it would surely be serious enough to remember, but how often does that really happen in the vast majority of cases? 


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#35 TAHAWK

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 04:16 PM

HANLON'S RAZOR

 

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.


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#36 Back Pack

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 07:24 PM

Getting back on topic, I appreciate the responses of those giving advice about their experiences at Philmont.
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#37 Sentinel947

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 08:58 PM

I've been to Philmont twice. Once as a Crew leader in 2011 , once as a crew advisor in 2015.

 

It really depends. Is your crew doing a big "peak bagging" type trip where your crew is doing 80+ miles? If they don't care about the program at the next camp/camps they are hiking through, then a wake up time is not as important. 

 

If your crew is really keen on doing a certain activity at a camp they are staying in/hiking through then they need to consider what time programs generally end at philmont (I want to say it's 4 pm but I could be wrong...they also need to consider there may be a line...) Most backpackers generally walk between 1 and 3 miles per hour depending on the terrain, weather, temperature. Depending on the section of philmont that is something to important to consider. Breaks are another thing to consider. With a crew your group is generally going to be taking breaks. This depends on again on the terrain and weather. 

 

I would sit down with my crew leader and navigator at night and ask them questions. "Do you know where we are going tomorrow?" "What route are we taking?" "How long do you think it will take us to get there?" "What activities do you plan to do?"  Based on that, they would decide when we needed to get up. The earliest we woke up on my 2015 was 5:30 AM. That was the day we hiked up Baldy Mountain, which has a time restriction on how late you can begin the summit. 

 

Unfortunately, with stuff like this, there is no perfect answer. It's always some flavor of "it depends." 

 

One thing is for certain, your Scouts will love Philmont. 


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#38 Eagledad

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 07:38 AM

Yep, Scoutmaster Sentinel has a nice ring to it.

Barry
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"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#39 RememberSchiff

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 07:47 AM


I would sit down with my crew leader and navigator at night and ask them questions. "Do you know where we are going tomorrow?" "What route are we taking?" "How long do you think it will take us to get there?" "What activities do you plan to do?"  Based on that, they would decide when we needed to get up. The earliest we woke up on my 2015 was 5:30 AM. That was the day we hiked up Baldy Mountain, which has a time restriction on how late you can begin the summit. 

 

 

Back in the day, I don't recall a time restrictions to starting hikes. The no-go or time-to-return decisions were ours to make.


Edited by RememberSchiff, 18 April 2017 - 07:47 AM.

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#40 Sentinel947

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 08:53 AM

Back in the day, I don't recall a time restrictions to starting hikes. The no-go or time-to-return decisions were ours to make.


@RememberSchiff,

There is only one at Philmont I know of. Summiting Baldy has a time you must check in at Baldy Town Camp. Philmonts reason is so that crews have a reasonable time to summit and descend the mountain before frequent afternoon thunderstorms.
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