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How to address gaps in Eagle project


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#61 Stosh

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 01:08 PM

I've seen that over and over again.  Your advice is dead on.

 

Brow beating occurs by adults trying to justify their own value as an adult lead.  Sometimes the best thing we adults can do is just back off and let scouts own what they are doing.  

 

And this, folks, why I don't have any involvement in the process unless asked, I don't allow my ASM's to be involved, I threaten all parents that get involved, and keep them away from the candidate!!!   It is my experience under this assumption that with a few mini-projects the boys have practiced on in the past, the Eagle project is nothing more than hoop-jumping paperwork.  The boy should already know how to lead, his project is only confirming it.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#62 dfolson

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 07:28 AM

To close the loop.  The board did pass the Scout.  There was some good discussion with the Scout about writing as little as possible and leaving details out.  Also was good feed back for the unit in that they thought the final project write up was reviewed by the council when the Eagle application was submitted.  In reality it is only reviewed to see it has been signed off.  Good feedback for the district to add the message in the Eagle presentation that they DON"T see the final until the BoR.  Good feedback to the Council that there needs to be better communication between Eagle coaches and unit leaders to the district volunteers. 


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#63 Stosh

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 08:03 AM

To close the loop.  The board did pass the Scout.  There was some good discussion with the Scout about writing as little as possible and leaving details out.  Also was good feed back for the unit in that they thought the final project write up was reviewed by the council when the Eagle application was submitted.  In reality it is only reviewed to see it has been signed off.  Good feedback for the district to add the message in the Eagle presentation that they DON"T see the final until the BoR.  Good feedback to the Council that there needs to be better communication between Eagle coaches and unit leaders to the district volunteers. 

 

Yeah, I think more adult involvement is always a good answer.

 

I have often wondered whether the write-up is more important than the project.  It would seem that every time I turn around this whole process becomes one more step convoluted that it requires adults to step in and make things right.

 

If a scout is trying to scam the system by doing a lousy job on a project that some beneficiary signs off on a project just to get by, then after all those years "A Scout is Trustworthy" really doesn't mean much to him.  One does not need a 10-page detailed report of every penny and every minute spent on every aspect of the project to let everyone know that.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#64 NJCubScouter

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 08:56 AM

To close the loop.  The board did pass the Scout.  There was some good discussion with the Scout about writing as little as possible and leaving details out.  Also was good feed back for the unit in that they thought the final project write up was reviewed by the council when the Eagle application was submitted.  In reality it is only reviewed to see it has been signed off.  Good feedback for the district to add the message in the Eagle presentation that they DON"T see the final until the BoR.  Good feedback to the Council that there needs to be better communication between Eagle coaches and unit leaders to the district volunteers. 

 

I'm not sure exactly what that means in light of your original post.  Do you mean that there WAS sufficient development, planning and leadership,  but it just hadn't been reflected in the workbook?  Or that the Scout was given a break because the adults had messed up the approval process?


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#65 qwazse

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 09:08 AM

Yeah, I think more adult involvement is always a good answer. ...

Actually, I think @dfolson's council is acting in a way that makes the scout (and his SM) the quality assurance people for the scout's project. I know boys who are very uncomfortable with the thought of adult strangers in some office somewhere pouring over their write-ups for weeks without telling them. Letting the scout (and the SM) know that there are only a fixed number of adults in the process helps them. That's why promptly scheduled EBoRs are important. Finish your workbook, turn it in, be prepared for your review in a couple of weeks, know that those reviewers will only have a few minutes prior to read your materials, and they will ask about your project anything they couldn't grasp from your write-up. So, read what you wrote and be prepared to fill in the gaps.

 

Along these lines, Bryan's forums have an interesting discussion regarding online vs. handwritten workbooks. Some of you may wish to chime in there: http://blog.scouting...cout-workbooks/


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#66 NJCubScouter

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 09:44 AM

Yeah, I think more adult involvement is always a good answer.

Actually, I think @dfolson's council is acting in a way that makes the scout (and his SM) the quality assurance people for the scout's project. I know boys who are very uncomfortable with the thought of adult strangers in some office somewhere pouring over their write-ups for weeks without telling them. Letting the scout (and the SM) know that there are only a fixed number of adults in the process helps them. That's why promptly scheduled EBoRs are important. Finish your workbook, turn it in, be prepared for your review in a couple of weeks, know that those reviewers will only have a few minutes prior to read your materials, and they will ask about your project anything they couldn't grasp from your write-up. So, read what you wrote and be prepared to fill in the gaps.
 
Along these lines, Bryan's forums have an interesting discussion regarding online vs. handwritten workbooks. Some of you may wish to chime in there: http://blog.scouting...cout-workbooks/


My assumption was that Stosh was being sarcastic there.
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#67 fred johnson

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 11:21 AM

If a scout is trying to scam the system by doing a lousy job on a project that some beneficiary signs off on a project just to get by, then after all those years "A Scout is Trustworthy" really doesn't mean much to him.  One does not need a 10-page detailed report of every penny and every minute spent on every aspect of the project to let everyone know that.

 

Scamming ... Yeah, I've seen that both in scouts and at work.  Essentially, the person wants success based on the end product being accepted and avoid evaluating the idea, the effort, the planning or if it was even a quality product.  And, then acting as a victim if you push back because of their circumventing expectations.  

 

In scouts ... I've seen a few EBORs where the scout just didn't do a quality job planning and developing the concept of his project.  In fact, I've seen some where the scout effectively just put in worse than junk in his plan.  If he had been on my team at work, I question whether I could trust him to lead again.  He'd require more observation until that trust is earned again.  And, I would have not signed off on his work product.  I would have extra work now finding a way to get him or someone else to fix it. 

 

The challenge is EBORs want to pass the scout.  They want to give him that positive experience and recognition.  I think the front end and back end need to be taken more seriously.  The proposal reviewers need to emphasize the planning, developing and leading.  The project report reviewers and the EBOR members need to be willing to push back on poor quality.  


Edited by fred johnson, 02 May 2017 - 11:26 AM.

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#68 Col. Flagg

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 11:32 AM

How can a District avoid these issues if the unit and beneficiary sign off on a project that may not meet the requirements.  The Council checks that the report is there but not necessarily the content. Now as the District rep, I am questioning whether the project meets the requirements before the board has even been scheduled.

 

 

I'm not sure exactly what that means in light of your original post.  Do you mean that there WAS sufficient development, planning and leadership,  but it just hadn't been reflected in the workbook?  Or that the Scout was given a break because the adults had messed up the approval process?

 

I am curious about this too. If the Beneficiary, Unit and District/Council sign off on the Proposal then why would they not sign off on the plan? Or, as the recent post indicate, why DID THEY finally sign off without issue?


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#69 fred johnson

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 01:13 PM

DID THEY finally sign off without issue?

 

It's a positive that comforts me.  EBOR members made a mistake in the scout's favor to approve him.  I'd rather have mistakes in the scout's favor than against.  EBORs should have know the path toward addressing failures.  But if a failure happens, I'd rather have it made in favor of the scout. 


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#70 Col. Flagg

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 02:45 PM

It's a positive that comforts me.  EBOR members made a mistake in the scout's favor to approve him.  I'd rather have mistakes in the scout's favor than against.  EBORs should have know the path toward addressing failures.  But if a failure happens, I'd rather have it made in favor of the scout. 

 

Totally agree. I am just curious what happened or was said to make them (the district/council) do the 180.

 

The district signed the proposal and final report so there should have been no surprises. If there were any they should have been raised after reviewing the final report and comparing against the proposal, not at the EBOR.


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#71 fred johnson

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 10:00 AM

Totally agree. I am just curious what happened or was said to make them (the district/council) do the 180.

 

The district signed the proposal and final report so there should have been no surprises. If there were any they should have been raised after reviewing the final report and comparing against the proposal, not at the EBOR.

 

District doesn't sign the project final report.  The district chance to review the project is the EBOR.  


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#72 Col. Flagg

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 10:16 AM

District doesn't sign the project final report.  The district chance to review the project is the EBOR.  

 

That's what I get for typing ahead of my brain. I meant to say Beneficiary signs twice, as does the SM, attesting to the completion of the project. The district signs the application attesting to the fact the BOR was completed. Unless something is seriously amiss in the EBOR, and runs contrary to the attestation of the Beneficiary/SM as the project being completed, the EBOR should have no issues with the project counting.


Edited by Col. Flagg, 03 May 2017 - 10:17 AM.

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#73 dfolson

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 11:07 AM

In this case there was adequate planning and development, it just did not make it into the report.  I was glad to find out he had answers to my questions.  The report is less important than the project.  The project is also only part of the evaluation.   I was just wishing there was better communication between the district and the unit after the proposal, and would not be opposed to the district signing on final report, yet that decision was made by national already...


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#74 qwazse

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 11:28 AM

In this case there was adequate planning and development, it just did not make it into the report.  I was glad to find out he had answers to my questions.  The report is less important than the project.  The project is also only part of the evaluation.   I was just wishing there was better communication between the district and the unit after the proposal, and would not be opposed to the district signing on final report, yet that decision was made by national already...

Let's be careful what we wish for. More signatures means more time away from important things, like camporees and roundtables.
The EBoR is when the district reviews and signs on the package. And, in this case, you were able to wrap that up without obliging the scout to jump through more hoops.
Do you really want to meddle in the affairs of hundreds of Eagles for the sake of one whose writing is shy on detail?
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#75 fred johnson

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 12:04 PM

In this case there was adequate planning and development, it just did not make it into the report.  I was glad to find out he had answers to my questions.  The report is less important than the project.  The project is also only part of the evaluation.   I was just wishing there was better communication between the district and the unit after the proposal, and would not be opposed to the district signing on final report, yet that decision was made by national already...

 

District does sign-off on the eagle application.  The signature is on the Eagle application.  :)


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