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#41 Chadamus

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 02:47 PM

The nice thing about Troopmaster is the calculations it does for things like the National Outdoor badges among others. I don't have one in front of me so correct me if I'm wrong but tracking ability for those isn't in the handbook.
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#42 Col. Flagg

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 03:19 PM

The nice thing about Troopmaster is the calculations it does for things like the National Outdoor badges among others. I don't have one in front of me so correct me if I'm wrong but tracking ability for those isn't in the handbook.

 

Or OA, STEM, NOVA, World Conservation, service stars, print out blue cards, or printing our reports when you purchase rank advancement at the scout shop.

 

Do one COH where you have to manually tally 30+ ranks and 150 MBs, service stars, etc., and the time TM saves you is worth the annual subscription.


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#43 NJCubScouter

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 05:09 PM

I guess getting boy's their Eagle is more important than getting them their TF.

 

I know it is not a popular view in this forum, but the BSA seems to think the Eagle rank is more important than the others.  There's only one rank that has its own chapter in the Guide to Advancement.


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#44 Stosh

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 06:35 PM

And of course that feeds the fervor around why we have paper Eagles and scouts who's only reason they are in the program is go get Eagle.  And of course the traditional Once an Eagle, Always an Eagle as if simply being a First Class Scout is like being something of a caste pariah. 

 

If BSA were to put as much effort into the other methods of Scouting as they do advancement, things might not be what it is today.  Let your imagination fill in the blanks on what that might be.


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Stosh

 

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#45 NJCubScouter

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 07:04 PM

...we have paper Eagles...


Stosh, when you call the kids names, do you call them names to their face, or only behind their backs?

Lest you feel singled out, I used to ask Kudu the same thing when he called some Scouts "cupcakes."
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#46 Stosh

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 07:08 PM

calling them names?  That description of certain Eagles has been around for literally 100 years.  Do you your research, then make your point.


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#47 Stosh

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 07:25 PM

http://scouter.com/i...6-paper-eagles/

 

Notice the topic was discussed long before many of us currently on the forum were around.

 

And why then is a First Class Scout really a second class scout?


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Stosh

 

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#48 NJCubScouter

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 08:39 PM

calling them names?  That description of certain Eagles has been around for literally 100 years.  Do you your research, then make your point.

 

http://scouter.com/i...6-paper-eagles/

 

Notice the topic was discussed long before many of us currently on the forum were around.

 

And why then is a First Class Scout really a second class scout?

 

The fact that some people 100 years ago or 14 years ago were insulting kids does not make it right.


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#49 Back Pack

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 09:05 PM

Why is paper Eagle insulting? Tenderfoot can be equally insulting, no? It implies inferiority compared to others. Or calling new Scouts "greenhorns", Noobs, first-years, etc.? I know there are other examples on Scouting.

Not sure why we should keep some of these and throw out paper Eagle just because some are offended.
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#50 Chadamus

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 09:15 PM

The distinguishing difference is not the rank itself but how it was earned. No one is saying 'paper Tenderfoot.'
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#51 NJCubScouter

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 09:33 PM

Why is paper Eagle insulting? 

 

Do you think Stosh intends it as a compliment?


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#52 Back Pack

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 06:50 AM

Do you think Stosh intends it as a compliment?


You didn't answer my question. Since Tenderfoot is derogatory should we get rid of that too?
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#53 RememberSchiff

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 07:10 AM

You didn't answer my question. Since Tenderfoot is derogatory should we get rid of that too

Let's take it down a notch. All depends on context.

 

Tenderfoot and Second Class may sound derogatory and First Class and Star elitist, but in the general Scouting context, that is not the case. They are just names. Could they be used in a not courteous way, yes.

 

In the end, it is the perception of the person who is being called that name that matters.

 

If someone called me a paper Eagle, I would not like it.


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#54 Stosh

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 07:33 AM

Mea Culpa. 

 

Let it be known from this time forward the term Paper or Parlour Eagle will no longer be used to distinguish certain Eagles.  Instead I will be using the terms Eagle and Real Eagle.


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Stosh

 

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#55 fred johnson

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 11:13 AM

Or OA, STEM, NOVA, World Conservation, service stars, print out blue cards, or printing our reports when you purchase rank advancement at the scout shop.

 

Do one COH where you have to manually tally 30+ ranks and 150 MBs, service stars, etc., and the time TM saves you is worth the annual subscription.

 

I've been there with lots of ranks and MBs.  It takes time to write the advancement cards and staple the patch.  We tried printing the blue cards and advancement cards.  We just don't like how they look and feel.  And, they are always cut to size and look weird.  Or have rough edges.  ... It's nice to get the hand written cards.  It's personal. 

 

As for the rest we're just not going to invest our time tracking the detailed requirements.  It's just not worth the time.  ... Yeah, we don't do a great job looking at if scouts qualify for other awards.  We'll be doing that when we start using scoutbook ... someday.  But even then, we won't enter individual requirements.  Just summary rank and MBs completed.  The rest is up to the scout.  

 

Our process is ... Scout owns his advancement.  We help by structuring program so that each year there are opportunities to complete first class.  Beyond that, we have an advancement box.  When you finish a merit badge, hand it to the scoutmaster (or adv coordinator) and they put it in the advancement box.  Finish a rank, they log it in the advancement box.  Then periodically the contents of the box are entered into BSA online advancement.  

 

Before each COH, the advancement coordinator prints outs the advancement reports from BSA online advancement.  He goes to scout shop and shops for advancement using those reports.  

 

Tracking whether a scout completed FC requirement 1 sub point B option 2 detail D is just not worth the implication of how much time it would take. 


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#56 Col. Flagg

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 11:24 AM

I get ya @fred johnson, you like old school. I bet your cell phone is like the one Danny Glover used in Lethal Weapon.  :D

 

With the plethora of sources for information these days, it's nearly impossible for adults, let alone Scouts, to manage the symbiotic relationship of all the various award possibilities out there. Spreadsheets built by volunteers used to help. Now we have software that does it pretty well. The boys still manage their books, but they can now get print outs (which they get themselves) that allow them to see they can get the World Conservation badge if they do x or y.

 

I see the use of software as I do power tools. Sure you can waste 10 minutes trying to screw in a screw OR you can do it in a few seconds with the right drill and bit. You like screwdrivers. I like power tools.

 

I bet you've got some biceps from carrying around that batter pack.  :eek:  ;)

 

arma-letal-telefono-lethal-weapon-cell-p


Edited by Col. Flagg, 23 March 2017 - 11:25 AM.

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#57 fred johnson

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:00 PM

I get ya @fred johnson, you like old school. I bet your cell phone is like the one Danny Glover used in Lethal Weapon.  :D

 

With the plethora of sources for information these days, it's nearly impossible for adults, let alone Scouts, to manage the symbiotic relationship of all the various award possibilities out there. Spreadsheets built by volunteers used to help. Now we have software that does it pretty well. The boys still manage their books, but they can now get print outs (which they get themselves) that allow them to see they can get the World Conservation badge if they do x or y.

 

I see the use of software as I do power tools. Sure you can waste 10 minutes trying to screw in a screw OR you can do it in a few seconds with the right drill and bit. You like screwdrivers. I like power tools.

 

I bet you've got some biceps from carrying around that batter pack.  :eek:  ;)

 

Mr. Flagg ... You are a funny man.  :)  ... I just don't believe in creating a big role for an adult, especially when I see the benefit as relatively small.  I'm looking to keep the infrastructure light and easy so that we can focus on letting the scouts be scouts.  We could use the software, but the software requires lots of adult time to keep accurate and useful.  I remember a leader that would periodically collects the scout's handbooks so they can enter the advancements into TroopMaster.  We did that too years ago.  When we stopped, no one missed it.  

 

Yeah, we probably could get a scout or two more awards ... but I suspect it's fairly rare and I'm not sure the scouts care themselves.   In another words, tracking all that data means lots of work with little value.  Plus, I think there is huge value minimizing the adult roles.  


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#58 Col. Flagg

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:30 PM

Yeah, we probably could get a scout or two more awards ... but I suspect it's fairly rare and I'm not sure the scouts care themselves.   In another words, tracking all that data means lots of work with little value.  Plus, I think there is huge value minimizing the adult roles.  

 

I suspect we see this differently because nearly all the parents and kids in our unit are hugely in to IT. Frankly, the amount of time it was taking Scouts and adults to manage paperwork and processes using the manual method was many time what it is today. The software has literally cut our management of these things -- both Scout and adult -- by 90%. For us, at least, that was a huge value for both sides.

 

What was cool was watching the PLs running reports for their guys, helping the figure out -- using both book and software -- how to get the Scout from A to B. But we have near 100% uptake on all the computer-related MBs too, so maybe we are just nerds.  :D

 

My unit...

revenge-of-the-nerds-tri-lam-sweaters.jp

 

Your unit...(meant jokingly, of course) :p

cavemen.jpg


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#59 fred johnson

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 01:45 PM

Your unit...(meant jokingly, of course) :p

cavemen.jpg

 

Sadly with a bit of pride, you might not be that far off.  If summer camp had a primitive hunting program, they would take it.  Our scouts like being active and getting dirty.  ... Sometimes they even talk to us and tell us their plans.  

 

Na for us, if a PL wanted to help his scout with advancement, he'd ask the scout for his BSA Boy Scout Handbook.  

 

I don't really understand how you can save time.  I've used scoutbook and troopmaster.  It takes time to keep the individual records up to date.  Simply recording who attended a camp out in those tools takes time.  Recording service takes time.  Recording individual requirements takes even more time. I'd have to have an adult who's sole job was to keep those systems updated and accurate.  And, another person who posts the records to BSA and purchases advancements.   

 

We're really concerned with just having the handbook right and having BSA online records right.  Beyond that, it just doesn't matter to us.  

 

Each to their own.  I can understand where you like having that data and the reports.  I actually don't want it because of the implications.  Each to their own.


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#60 Col. Flagg

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 01:58 PM

I don't really understand how you can save time.  I've used scoutbook and troopmaster.  It takes time to keep the individual records up to date.  Simply recording who attended a camp out in those tools takes time.  Recording service takes time.  Recording individual requirements takes even more time. I'd have to have an adult who's sole job was to keep those systems updated and accurate.  And, another person who posts the records to BSA and purchases advancements.


In short, TM's new web interface does a few cool things:

  • You are no longer tethered to having to sit at your desk. You can use via web so tablet, smart phone, pc, laptop.
  • No single person in the database anymore. You can have as many people as you want entering date at the same time.
  • Failover. If the database goes down (never has) you have a back up in the cloud. Simply don't lose data.
  • Mobile. There's an app. So an Instructor can sit in the field and update the records of first year Scouts.

I'll grant you, before these changes TM didn't save much time. Now? Holy cow!!!


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