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A scout is Obedient....or should that be Responsible?


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#21 Col. Flagg

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:40 PM

... but the Scout Law was as good a guidance as any orders, regulations, or training I have been given.   But I guess I am just simple.

 

I was going to say something similar.

 

Just because I have had to use a weapon to take someone's life, doesn't make me a bad Christian. 


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#22 David CO

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:48 PM

I was going to say something similar.

 

Just because I have had to use a weapon to take someone's life, doesn't make me a bad Christian. 

 

It certainly doesn't.


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#23 MattR

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:51 PM

You guys are sort of wandering off in the weeds. Maybe David's point was that 12 words alone can't teach a scout, or anyone else for that matter, how to be good. Of course, neither can 10, 13, or 613 commandments. If that were the case then the Bible would be a lot shorter.

 

So, to answer the original topic, I don't have a problem with obedient and it ain't broke. I'd leave it as is.


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#24 NJCubScouter

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 03:52 PM

I think it's worth noting that the Scout Law says a Scout "is" these 12 things.  It does NOT say he is not necessarily other positive things, whether it be responsible, fair, self-reliant, careful, etc., all of which I think are implied in the Scouting program, if not in the words of the Oath and Law.  It does not exclude "a Scout exercises critical thinking", which is something I might add if I were given the power (and if I could find a way to boil it down to one word.)  But I agree with MattR, the Scout Law ain't broke so we don't need to fix it.


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#25 Stosh

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 04:42 PM

If someone were to offer another all the secrets of the universe, secrets of getting along with everyone they meet, being an above the rest in popularity and charisma, and the person were to say, "That's too simplistic and juvenile." would you listen anyway?


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#26 David CO

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 06:25 PM

Above the rest in popularity and charisma?  Seriously?  You can't be talking about boy scouts.


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#27 Stosh

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 07:39 AM

Above the rest in popularity and charisma?  Seriously?  You can't be talking about boy scouts.

 

"Help other people at all times"  Oh, yes I am talking about boy scouts who actually believe the program is more than box checking and having fun out in the woods.  One goes to school to learn how to live out in the real world, one goes to scouts to learn how to live out in the real world.  Sometimes one's opinion of the school is because the curriculum isn't being effectively taught.  Don't blame the curriculum for ineffective teaching.


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#28 David CO

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 08:39 AM

The scouting program has many good features, and my scouts are a great group of kids.  But the boy scouts are definitely not the most popular and charismatic group of boys in the school.


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#29 NJCubScouter

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 09:05 AM

The scouting program has many good features, and my scouts are a great group of kids.  But the boy scouts are definitely not the most popular and charismatic group of boys in the school.

 

I don't think anyone would disagree with that second sentence.  (There may be exceptions for individual Scouts here and there, but generally it is true.)  But who cares?  And did Stosh say the opposite?  All I saw was him asking a question (post #25 in this thread), which I am not sure I understand, and it did not even specifically mention Scouting.  I'm not even sure you and Stosh are talking about the same thing.


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#30 Stosh

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 12:50 PM

The scouting program has many good features, and my scouts are a great group of kids.  But the boy scouts are definitely not the most popular and charismatic group of boys in the school.

 

Yeah, popular and charismatic people are often seen as the leaders.  If it were me, I would be asking myself why my boys aren't leading? if that be the case.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#31 David CO

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 01:56 PM

In order to be a leader, you need to have followers.  Very few boys at school would accept the boy scouts as their leaders.  The scouts just don't have what it takes to pull it off.

 

That is why the scouting program is so important to them, and why we continue to charter a unit.  Scouting gives these boys an opportunity to experience leadership.  They would probably never get a chance to experience it otherwise.


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#32 Col. Flagg

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 02:43 PM

In order to be a leader, you need to have followers.  Very few boys at school would accept the boy scouts as their leaders.  The scouts just don't have what it takes to pull it off.

 

That is why the scouting program is so important to them, and why we continue to charter a unit.  Scouting gives these boys an opportunity to experience leadership.  They would probably never get a chance to experience it otherwise.

 

Not sure I understand that comment. 

 

Are you saying that, because school kids usually equate popularity with leadership -- and generalizing that Scouts are not cool enough to be popular -- that they (Scouts) are not equipped to lead their school mates?


Edited by Col. Flagg, 22 March 2017 - 02:44 PM.

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#33 Eagledad

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 03:10 PM

In order to be a leader, you need to have followers.  Very few boys at school would accept the boy scouts as their leaders.  The scouts just don't have what it takes to pull it off.

 

That is why the scouting program is so important to them, and why we continue to charter a unit.  Scouting gives these boys an opportunity to experience leadership.  They would probably never get a chance to experience it otherwise.

Our scouts come from three local high schools. The students each year at one of the schools votes for the top 8 students  who provide leadership qualities. The student body population of this school is 2800 students. One year 7 out of the 8 students selected for the leadership award were scouts in our troop. The eight was a girl.

 

That is an interest coincidence to me. Now imagine the odds that 7 scouts out of a troop of 80 scouts at the time being selected as the top student leaders from 2800 of their peirs. 

 

The power of the BSA program is only limited by the vision of it's adults.

 

Imagine, all eight of the students selected as leaders might have been in our troop is we were coed. Ah, different discussion. LOL

 

Barry


Edited by Eagledad, 22 March 2017 - 03:14 PM.

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#34 RememberSchiff

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 03:25 PM

Like David CO, our scouts are not the popular, cool kids that win school elections, nor are they school politics savvy. Our scouts have lead robotics teams, chess clubs,...


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#35 Cambridgeskip

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 03:59 PM

In order to be a leader, you need to have followers.  Very few boys at school would accept the boy scouts as their leaders.  The scouts just don't have what it takes to pull it off.

 

That is why the scouting program is so important to them, and why we continue to charter a unit.  Scouting gives these boys an opportunity to experience leadership.  They would probably never get a chance to experience it otherwise.

 

I'll turn this on its head.

 

Would your scouts want to be the leaders at their school?

 

The reason I ask..... in my days as a scout I didn't fit in well at school. In short I was the working class kid at the very middle class school. My dad got his hands dirty in a factory while most of my class mates had dads who were lawyers or doctors or something similar. And I was rarely allowed to forget it and I got a really hard time about it. My scout troop though was filled with kids more like me. And I fitted in there. I was PL of Bulldog* patrol. It was where I fitted in. Back at school where I didn't fit in I have to say that I don't think I would want to have been a leader. We had elections for Head Boy and Head Girl and their deputies (this may be a very British thing, apologies if you're not familiar with the concept!). It was inevitably a popularity contest and frankly not one I had any interest in winning. I was completely done with half of those I went to school with. I'd go so far as to say I actively didn't want to win it.

 

So out of curiosity, would your scouts want to be the leaders at their school? Is it something they aspire to but don't get the chance? Or do they avoid it?

 

*previously we'd been panthers. But the panther patrol badge looked more like a gerbil. So we changed to bulldogs. Turned out the bulldog badge looked more like a Scottish Terrier. Not quite the image we were looking for!


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#36 NJCubScouter

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 04:01 PM

In order to be a leader, you need to have followers.  Very few boys at school would accept the boy scouts as their leaders.  The scouts just don't have what it takes to pull it off.

 

That is why the scouting program is so important to them, and why we continue to charter a unit.  Scouting gives these boys an opportunity to experience leadership.  They would probably never get a chance to experience it otherwise.

 

Based on the responses to your post, and my experience, I think it varies from place to place and maybe from time to time.

 

I'm not sure why I remember this, but when I was somewhere around the fifth grade, the student council president (an eighth-grader, it was a K-8 school) was a Scout, and sometime during his eighth grade year he made Eagle.  Of course, this was about 50 years ago.  (!)

 

In high school I was elected student council treasurer (not sure where that stands in the pantheon of "leadership") and I was a Boy Scout.  Our student council presidents and class presidents were not Scouts as I recall.  In fact if I remember correctly our class president (all four years) was really not involved in any other activities of consequence, but he must have done something right along the way because he is now a state court judge (an appointed, not elected position.)

 

When my son was in high school, and on the robotics team, for all four years the overall student captain of the team was a Boy Scout - three different Scouts from two different troops, all of whom were either Eagle at the time of their election or made Eagle in their senior year.  (My son was a sub-team captain.)  And yes I realize that the robotics team is not necessarily a microcosm of the school, and not necessarily composed of the "most popular" kids anyway.

 

And then again, leadership ability and popularity are not necessarily the same thing.


Edited by NJCubScouter, 22 March 2017 - 04:06 PM.

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#37 MattR

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 04:13 PM

Yeah, I remember the popular kids from high school. Half of them are in 12 step recovery programs now. Most of the rest are in marketing. I'm not making this up. I went to my 40th year reunion and I was the only one that had a technical degree. It was a ton of fun though.

 

There certainly are scouts that are socially awkward. And a lot of them have been asked to lead projects in their school because, as many have told me, they just know how to get things done.

 

Popularity and leadership have a small overlap. Popularity is often about being selfish and confident. Leadership is often about being selfless and confident.


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#38 David CO

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 05:52 PM

I'll turn this on its head.

 

Would your scouts want to be the leaders at their school?

 

The reason I ask..... in my days as a scout I didn't fit in well at school. In short I was the working class kid at the very middle class school. My dad got his hands dirty in a factory while most of my class mates had dads who were lawyers or doctors or something similar. And I was rarely allowed to forget it and I got a really hard time about it. My scout troop though was filled with kids more like me. And I fitted in there. I was PL of Bulldog* patrol. It was where I fitted in. Back at school where I didn't fit in I have to say that I don't think I would want to have been a leader. We had elections for Head Boy and Head Girl and their deputies (this may be a very British thing, apologies if you're not familiar with the concept!). It was inevitably a popularity contest and frankly not one I had any interest in winning. I was completely done with half of those I went to school with. I'd go so far as to say I actively didn't want to win it.

 

So out of curiosity, would your scouts want to be the leaders at their school? Is it something they aspire to but don't get the chance? Or do they avoid it?

 

*previously we'd been panthers. But the panther patrol badge looked more like a gerbil. So we changed to bulldogs. Turned out the bulldog badge looked more like a Scottish Terrier. Not quite the image we were looking for!

 

Yes, I think so.  Most of my scouts would love to be a star athlete, popular student, and charismatic leader. 


Edited by David CO, 22 March 2017 - 06:00 PM.

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#39 Eagledad

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 06:04 PM

Yeah, I remember the popular kids from high school. Half of them are in 12 step recovery programs now. Most of the rest are in marketing. I'm not making this up. I went to my 40th year reunion and I was the only one that had a technical degree. It was a ton of fun though.
 
There certainly are scouts that are socially awkward. And a lot of them have been asked to lead projects in their school because, as many have told me, they just know how to get things done.
 
Popularity and leadership have a small overlap. Popularity is often about being selfish and confident. Leadership is often about being selfless and confident.


The school has 2800 students spread over four grades. I cant agree with your cynicism. Not one of those Scouts ever mentioned their honor to the SM. I Learned it from a freshman proud of his troop.

Kind of funny, we have dozens of discussions on this forum of the behavior benefits of the patrol method, but when someone gives proof, SMs here justify it away as adolescent selfseveringness. Why are you here? For those who are less skeptical, the program works because I witnessed it both as a youth and adult.

Barry
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#40 Stosh

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 06:45 PM

Gee, when a scout looks around and sees that no one is actually following him, it must make it quite difficult to convince him he's a leader in a leadership program.  At least that's not the way it has always been, but it is what it has become.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)





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