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Canada Girl Guides restricting scout unit travel to USA


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#81 Col. Flagg

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:55 AM

Last time I checked, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Iraq, Iran and Syria were about as rogue as you can get in the Middle East. According to the latest reports that have been released from the western governments combating terrorism, planning cells in these countries have been responsible for most of the attacks and foiled attacks in the past two years. The training camps are in these countries, the leaders are in these countries, the apparatus for arming and aiding is in these countries.

 

But by all means, let's not worry about that at all. What's a six month wait while we institute better vetting procedures measured against stopping even the potential for one Paris-style attack?

 

We owe our citizens the protection which is their right. Helping those nationals from other countries is secondary to that duty. 


Edited by Col. Flagg, 17 March 2017 - 09:56 AM.

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#82 bearess

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 06:50 AM

Leaving the politics travel ban out of it, I live in a Canadian border state, and we have seen a lot of local news lately about Canadians being detained at the border/denied entry to the US. In a few cases, this has been because they didn't have their documents inorder, but in most cases it has been people who have crossed the border many times before with no issues. Here's an example: http://www.wcax.com/...-springs-border

With so much of Canada so close to the US, these stories are going to be more prevalent in Canada than in most of the US. I can't say I'm surprised by the decision, although I don't know if it was the right one.
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#83 Back Pack

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 07:03 AM

Assuming that report is even real. Need both sides to know for sure.
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#84 Stosh

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 08:03 AM

Being a state close to the Can/Am border, I have always found getting into Canada far easier than getting back to America....... This has been the case LOOOOONNNG before Trump was even considering running for President.  I'm talking about the fishing trips I frequently made to Canada, the touristy things over the years, etc.  The last time I was in Canada, 2 years ago, the Canadian border guards smiled and waved as I passed by the booth.  Getting into the States?  Well that was not that easy and that was when Obama was president,   So most of these smoke and mirror antics have nothing to do with presidents in as much as it does with political agendas floating around in rumors and hearsay so that the powers that are find it difficult to made mature decisions.

 

I'll add a bit of history to this from a close friend of mine.  His family and another made their annual trip and crossed the border.  When returning the wives and girls were in one car and the dads and boys were in another.  When they got to the border, the women went right on through, but when the guys got there, the border guard pulled open the back door and got right up close to one of the boys and asked him who the two men were in the front seat.  The boy was terrified and said he wanted his "'mommy".  Well, it was hours before the wives could get back there to rescue the guys, otherwise they would still be sitting there in border detention.  This was the Mexican border.


Edited by Stosh, 18 March 2017 - 08:16 AM.

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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#85 bearess

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 09:41 AM

I think the report is accurate. But my point wasn't really about the accuracy- simply that, locally, I see lots of stories like that, as do most Canadians, so that's some context for the decision.
I go up to Canada frequently to visit family, and I find the crossing fairly easy both ways, although the Canadian border guards tend to be more relaxed/jokey.
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#86 Col. Flagg

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 10:25 AM

I think the report is accurate. But my point wasn't really about the accuracy- simply that, locally, I see lots of stories like that, as do most Canadians, so that's some context for the decision.
I go up to Canada frequently to visit family, and I find the crossing fairly easy both ways, although the Canadian border guards tend to be more relaxed/jokey.

 

I see "reports" of all sorts of stuff. Until they are validated they are only one-sided reports that can be either true or lies. Given the state of journalism these days, one cannot put much trust in these reports. Many times the truth lies somewhere in between.

 

I've gone to Sea Base (non US areas) and been interrogated about my visit, length of stay, etc. I've gone on mission trips where we've been held for hours while the government validates our valid visas. I've been held up by my own customs guys on occasion. I've been denied entry in to countries at the border. I've been on trains that were denied entry in to countries and returned back to the station of origin. I been outright discriminated against in Mexico for being American. Spat on, denied entry, held for questions, subjected to search. What I am going to do? Complain? Everyone knows that Americans are not liked there. But I don't go to the media to complain. The response would be, "Yeah, we know. What did you expect?"


Edited by Col. Flagg, 18 March 2017 - 10:35 AM.

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#87 Peregrinator

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 03:16 PM

I have always found getting into Canada far easier than getting back to America

 

I've only crossed the border twice in each direction (both times when Obama was President), but my experience is the same.


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#88 TAHAWK

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 09:39 PM

British passport holder with valid visa refused entry to the USA

 

https://www.tes.com/...-us-school-trip

 

"US president Donald Trump's executive order clamping down on Muslim immigration to the US was hastily unveiled at the end of his first week in office."

 

The ban applied to any traveler from seven predominately Muslim countries.  Not the largest Muslim countries, as it happens, or to 85% of the world's Muslims but to Christians from those countries too (those alive, of course).   What the Fox-class story omits is the reason why he was barred.  From one of the the seven? Bureaucratic fowl-up?

 

I was delayed for almost three hours getting two American-born Scouts of Vietnamese heritage back into the U.%. in 1984.   Methodists, as it happens.  

 

Now I couldn't get into Canada or back to the U.S. unless I have a Passport or Pass Card.  That would be due to law from the Obama government era.  Nor may I enter the U.K. without a Passport or "identity card."  "You may also need a visa to come into or travel through the UK, depending on your nationality."


Edited by TAHAWK, 18 March 2017 - 10:00 PM.

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#89 TAHAWK

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 10:13 PM

The teacher was from Bangladesh according to some "journalists," "Pakistani" according to others, and British-born according to yet others.  I either case, he was not subject to the Executive order in question.  

 

The reason why he was "kicked," "booted," thrown," "ordered," or "pitched" off the plane in Iceland is only speculated at, according to the political or ethnic saga being advanced.

 

He didn't like the hotel he was placed in until his return flight. (“horrendous hotel“)

 

The story apparently stopped being "news" in about a week.

 

I can find no explanation, if it was a U.S. decision.  Anyone else?


Edited by TAHAWK, 18 March 2017 - 10:14 PM.

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#90 RememberSchiff

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 06:57 AM

The 36th Annual Hands Across the Border will be held in Canada at Camp Stone,
near Kimberley British Columbia, September 29-Oct 1, 2017.
 
This is the first time in several years the event will be held in Canada. This is very exciting news and I believe those units going will have a great experience.
 
... the camp’s location is a 5-hour drive from Missoula, not taking into account border crossing time.
 

How much time would/should border crossing time take? 2hours, 4hours, more? With cellphones and social media accounts being examined without a warrant at US border, what what be your electronics policy for trip?

 

In link, I was not aware of passport cards ($30 versus $100 passport) for US-Canada-Mexico land border crossing.
  http://www.montanabs...across-border/ 

 

FriendsAcrossBoarder.jpg


Edited by RememberSchiff, 19 March 2017 - 07:11 AM.

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#91 TAHAWK

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:24 AM

I take it the Girl Guides are separate from Scouts Canada, which includes female Scouts.


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#92 RememberSchiff

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:26 AM

I take it the Girl Guides are separate from Scouts Canada, which includes female Scouts.

 

Yes, Girl Guides is not part of Scouts Canada. Scouts Canada is coed.


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#93 Back Pack

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:25 AM

How much time would/should border crossing time take? 2hours, 4hours, more? With cellphones and social media accounts being examined without a warrant at US border, what what be your electronics policy for trip?
 


If you mean US side of the border, warrants are not necessary, nor have they ever been.
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#94 RememberSchiff

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:38 AM

If you mean US side of the border, warrants are not necessary, nor have they ever been.

 

Not at the US border or within x miles of it, but everywhere else in US, yes I think.


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#95 TAHAWK

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:38 AM

If you mean US side of the border, warrants are not necessary, nor have they ever been.

He was noting, as do you, the lack of a need for warrants.  " With cellphones and social media accounts being examined without a warrant at US border,..."


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#96 TAHAWK

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:48 AM

https://en.wikipedia...earch_exception


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#97 bsaggcmom

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:21 PM

@RememberSchiff



As a very frequent border crosser and having family members that cross daily here are a few tips/guidelines for your trip.

1. Make sure you have notarized travel documents for each Scout you are bringing with you across the border. These include a permission to travel abroad with a list of specific adults on specific dates. Permission to obtain emergency medical care for each member (youth and adult) while in Canada if needed. Create a travel packet for each member. A gallon Ziploc bag that contains notarized forms, passport/border cards/enhanced state ID/original raised seal birth certificate, troop permission slip, and a copy of the member's health form.

2. Packets accompany the members and are held by the driver of each vehicle. Driver hands the packets to Canadian/US customs agent at the border. Identification document on top, notarized permission to travel abroad form next, then notarized emergency health and regular health forms round out the bundle. Driver's packet is first. Organize packets by front seat, middle row and back row of the vehicle, driver to passenger sides. This is how we have done it for 25 years with our Girl Scout troop when we travel to Canada each Mother's Day weekend for a big camporee near London Ontario. Never had a problem crossing either way.

3. All phones/electronics turned off and stowed at the time of crossing. No sunglasses or hats on. If your driver wears prescription glasses have them switch temporarily to indoor glasses from their sunglasses. Border agents don't like sunglasses. Or they can take the glasses off for discussion with the agent.

4. No cameras at either border or near the border area. NO PICTURES OF BORDER AGENTS OR SURROUNDINGS.

5. Keep all vehicles in the same lane and together so that everyone deals with the same agent. Trailer comes through last. Designate a meeting spot after clearing customs. DO NOT gather the convoy on border crossing property. That way you will be close if there is a problem but not interfering with traffic flow. Everyone should be organized the same way going on to the border zone property too.

6. Parents and their kids should be in the same vehicles at the time of border crossings. As should siblings. You can regroup before entering or after exiting the border zone if siblings don't want to travel together. NEVER, EVER REGROUP IN THE BORDER ZONE.

7. NO WEAPONS, MACE, PEPPER SPRAY, NOTHING BIGGER THAN A POCKET KNIFE in vehicles or on person. CANADA DOESN'T DO GUNS!!!!!! Make sure all guns and ammunition are left at home. You will go to jail and they will seize your vehicle forever if you bring a gun in. Larger cooking knives need to be secured in a patrol box in a trailer or trunk. Pocket knives put away pockets or backpacks.

8. Proper current identification for everyone. Passports, passport cards (obtained just like a regular passport with the same forms and processes, only good for land crossing to US/Canada/Mexico), enhanced state ID (similar process to getting passport but done at your state DMV office, not available in all states). Our group and several school groups here also use raised seal/original birth certificates for youth under 18. There has always been an exemption for organized youth groups traveling between Canada/US to travel on birth certificates. Anyone over 18 has to have a passport/passport card/enhanced state ID. Check guidelines before travel.

9. Turn off data usage and roaming services for mobile devices unless the device has an international usage plan. It isn't uncommon for people to rack up hundreds if not thousands of dollars of roaming/international usage charges. A quick text can cost $5 or an email check can cost $25 or more if you don't have an international plan. My daughter tallied up $550 in 2 days because her phone didn't connect properly to the hotel wifi. Phone company was good about it, but they didn't have to be. Just turn the devices off. One leader can get a temporary international plan for a month and roll the cost of that into trip costs. We are doing that when the girls go to England in August.

Hope this helps. I have been crossing the border for over 50 years, and 7 years with Girl Scouts and never had a major problem. A few crabby agents here and there, only 2-3 vehicle searches. Searches were because my vehicle matched a vehicle of interest (Amber alert type things). Follow the Scout law and you shouldn't have a problem. Courteous, kind, obedient, friendly, cheerful and most of all Be Preapred. Nothing worse than rifling for documents at the agents shack.

Have a great trip.
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#98 RememberSchiff

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:06 AM

@bsaggcmom

Thanks for your very informative reply;


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#99 NJCubScouter

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:53 AM

@bsaggcmom 's very helpful post reminded me of this thread from a few years ago: http://scouter.com/i...-detains-group/

 

As I recall, there was never any clear "conclusion" about what happened in that case, and specifically no clear answer about whether the border agent actually pulled a gun.  The government said no gun was pulled, which satisfied the Scouts' council, and some people here (including me) believed it, and others didn't.

 

One thing that was clear in that case is that one or more Scouts were taking photos beyond the point where there was a big sign that warned against the taking of photos.  (See #4 in bsaggcmom's post.)  I did not re-read the entire thread but I seem to recall that this resulted in the agents inspecting one of the kids' phones and finding one or more photos that created a problem.  I also seem to recall that one or more Scouts were (allegedly) not following the instructions of the officers, which created more of a problem.


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#100 RememberSchiff

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 04:48 AM

Maybe add a requirement to Citizenship in Nation or World regarding border crossing procedures, both US and foreign.

 

IMHO, add requirement to Nation right after requirement #4

 

4. Discuss each of the following documents with your counselor. Tell your counselor how you feel life in the United States might be different without each one.

   a. Declaration of Independence

   b. Preamble to the Constitution

   c. The Constitution

   d. Bill of Rights

   e. Amendments to the Constitution      

 

What happens when old Schiff returns to US wearing his old Argus 35mm camera, does BCP seize my undeveloped film? :(

 

220px-Argus_C3_35mm.jpg   <--- imagine a camera that didn't need a battery :)

 

With more people storing info remotely in a "cloud" and clearing history, I wonder about the law enforcement value as well as the constitutionality of these measures.

 

My $0.02


Edited by RememberSchiff, 21 March 2017 - 05:03 AM.

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