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Eagle project hours


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#1 fred johnson

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 10:31 AM

I need advice.  I've got a scout that invested heavily in his first eagle project.  The proposal was signed off and he worked the plan for his project significantly.  Due to outside factors involving city governments etc, he had to abandon that project.  
 
He is now doing a completely different project.  New proposal.  New plan.  New beneficiary, etc.  
 
QUESTION - Would you roll the hours from the first project into the reported time for the second project in the Eagle Project Report?  
 
Listing the hours on the new project doesn't seem right, but the volunteering and effort occurred.  IMHO, the volunteer hours should be still credited even though the project was abandoned.  I'm just not sure where to credit those hours.
 
Currently, I'm advising him to bring his previous Eagle project workbook to his Eagle board of review along with time sheets, plans and pictures.  IMHO, the EBOR should know and see his investment as the first project was a major part of his journey to complete his Eagle requirements.  The EBOR should see it.  I just wish we could formally report the hours.

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#2 RememberSchiff

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 11:06 AM

I would not, I would just chalk it up to experience, it is the project not the hours that count,...but others may want a fuller reporting of a scouts total Eagle Projects hours.

 

Reporting volunteer hours using the same counting method as other volunteer agencies ensures that Scouting as a movement gets proper credit for all the great work our Scouts do.

 

When we present that number to groups and families not affiliated with Scouting, we want it to be as accurate as possible.

 

http://blog.scouting...-probably-hour/

 

My $0.02


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#3 Stosh

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 12:17 PM

I guess I, too, would not count the previous projects hours into the new project.  How would one know if the 100 yours indicated meant that he put 95 of those hours into the first project and only 5 in the new project? 

 

Mark up the first project as the learning necessary to knock the second project out of the park!  Hours are not counted towards the project anyway.  The boy may put in 10 hours or 100 hours, it is irrelevant. 

 

In order to get my boys "ready" for their Eagle projects, they do multiple service projects before hand.  The number of those projects is irrelevant.  The hours they put into them is irrelevant, but when the time comes to step up to the plate, they may in fact put 10 hours in on the project whereas someone with no experience would need to do 100. 

 

Explained to the Eagle candidate in these terms will allow him the insight into doing better than average on his second project.  He needs to be focusing in on doing a good job of leadership on his project and not worrying about how many hours it took him to do it.  After all, showing leadership is the goal, not racking up hours.


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#4 fred johnson

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 12:51 PM

  After all, showing leadership is the goal, not racking up hours.

 

I agree it's about showing leadership, but an Eagle Board Of Review is also looking at did the scout show enough / significant leadership.  Hours is a measurement whether or not we want it to be one.  Also, hours helps set the scope and size of the project.  

 

The newer project is smaller and the scout did exhibit major leadership while trying to do the first project.  The GTA says that an EBOR can look at other leadership to qualify the scout if the project is in question as showing enough leadership.  

 

I suspect I'll keep my advice the same.  Bring the previous project to you EBOR as supporting material to explain the path to completing the Eagle rank.  I suspect his personal investment in the previous project will be twice or three times the amount of total hours of everyone on the new project.  Both were good projects.  Just the new project is smaller.  


Edited by fred johnson, 13 March 2017 - 12:52 PM.

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#5 DadScouts

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 12:53 PM

We don't.  However, we do like it when Scouts have "Swing & a miss" projects since often as much is learned from the non-completed first attempt.  Our district/council has at least a couple Troop committee members on EBOHs and I make sure they know about prior attempted projected before the EBOR.


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#6 Col. Flagg

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 12:54 PM

I will differ from the previous comments. Looking at the GTA, I would read "Eagle Project" to be the PROCESS which results in the final sign off of the requirement, NOT just one single project. 

 

So, a Scout could work on, and get approval for, a project on which he works 50 hours. After that time, for reasons beyond his control, that project is abandoned and he must begin anew. He now has a second project that gets approved where he works another 50 hours. That, to me, is reported as 100 hours toward his Eagle Service Project; 50 hours each time.


Edited by Col. Flagg, 13 March 2017 - 12:55 PM.

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#7 qwazse

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 02:24 PM

Two things to consider:

  1. The actual number of hours does nothing for the boy. National is the one grubbing for reported hours so they can get bragging rights regarding the value of their community service, specifically as a function of Eagle projects.
  2. Hours aside, the documentation of the plan forming, getting approved, then rescinded, etc ... is an interesting story. And, by your description, not at all trival. So, I'd encourage the boy to include the "failed" project in an appendix. For his BoR.

If I were you, I'd follow the lead of your district advancement chair. Maybe the folks on the advancement committee don't want BoRs to be bogged down with stories of first and second tries. Maybe this is exactly what they want to hear about and to make sure is reported and on record.


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#8 MattR

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 10:03 PM


The newer project is smaller and the scout did exhibit major leadership while trying to do the first project.  The GTA says that an EBOR can look at other leadership to qualify the scout if the project is in question as showing enough leadership.  

 

Just a hunch but are you worried this scout might not pass his BOR?

 

I've seen very different views on what an EBOR should be on this forum. In our council, if the district Eagle person is okay with the project then it's good enough. End of story and nobody at a BOR will challenge it. If that is the case here then, as others have said, the first project makes a good story to tell at the BOR.

 

If the BOR might fail him over this, then there's a mess.


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#9 Back Pack

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:51 AM

How can the EBOR "fail" someone? Doesn't the GTA say it's up to the SM and beneficiary? The latter says if it was done to satisfaction. The former says if it meets requirements. District signs off on the project being worthy. As long as all the signatures are collected in the right order the BOR can't fail a candidate.

Edited by Back Pack, 14 March 2017 - 06:52 AM.

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#10 jjlash

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:57 AM

What does the Scout feel is right with regards to reporting the hours from the first project with the second project?

 

 

My opinion - the hours from the first should not be included with the second.  The hours from the first should definitely be recorded on the JTE service projects website.  The documentation from the first should be made available to the EBOR.  If I were on that EBOR I would spend a lot of time asking about the first project; hearing what he learned from the experience and how he applied those lessons to the second project.  


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#11 fred johnson

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 07:18 AM

How can the EBOR "fail" someone? Doesn't the GTA say it's up to the SM and beneficiary? The latter says if it was done to satisfaction. The former says if it meets requirements. District signs off on the project being worthy. As long as all the signatures are collected in the right order the BOR can't fail a candidate.

 

Actually, they can.  It should be rare, but they can.  And by rare, I mean rare.  

 

Essentially, the SM and beneficiary signatures define a good project in that the project was completed and they think the Eagle rank requirements were met.  But the final decision on whether the scout has displayed sufficient leadership lays with the EBOR.  Just because a district signs off on a Eagle project PROPOSAL, it is not automatic that the final result of how it's planned and implemented will pass the rank requirement.  The SM and beneficiary signatures mainly indicate the project was completed.  Though it should be used extremely rarely, the EBOR evaluates leadership.

 

If the EBOR judges the project contained insufficient leadership, then the EBOR can consider other aspects of the scout's scouting career through which the scout displayed leadership.  Using those other parts of the scout's career, the EBOR can pass the scout on the leadership requirement.  Or the EBOR can ask the scout to find a new project and try again.  But that should be extremely rare and would indicate many other process failures.  

 

I've been looking for the BSA GTA reference to this.  I swear I've read it.  I can't find it right now.  I'm looking 


Edited by fred johnson, 14 March 2017 - 07:41 AM.

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#12 fred johnson

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 07:19 AM

What does the Scout feel is right with regards to reporting the hours from the first project with the second project?

 

 

My opinion - the hours from the first should not be included with the second.  The hours from the first should definitely be recorded on the JTE service projects website.  The documentation from the first should be made available to the EBOR.  If I were on that EBOR I would spend a lot of time asking about the first project; hearing what he learned from the experience and how he applied those lessons to the second project.  

 

Thank you.  That's what I'm thinking too.  


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#13 Back Pack

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 07:22 AM

Actually, they can.  The signatures define a good project.  But the EBOR can look at the project and decide whether the scout displayed enough leadership through the project to meet the requirement.  If not, then the EBOR can consider other aspects of the scout's scouting career through which the scout displayed leadership.  Using those other parts of the scout's career, the EBOR can pass the scout on the project expectation of the scout leading others.


But the GTA says a BOR is granted when requirements are met. That means he's completed his requirements and been signed off. Can't add or subtract, so they can't fail him.

http://www.scouting....dsofReview.aspx
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#14 fred johnson

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 07:43 AM

Just a hunch but are you worried this scout might not pass his BOR?

 

I've seen very different views on what an EBOR should be on this forum. In our council, if the district Eagle person is okay with the project then it's good enough. End of story and nobody at a BOR will challenge it. If that is the case here then, as others have said, the first project makes a good story to tell at the BOR.

 

If the BOR might fail him over this, then there's a mess.

 

No.  I know everyone involved.  They will support the scout.  It's just seems like a major part of his Eagle rank journey and it should be visible.  Judging his scout career without considering the previous project effort leaves a big hole.  


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#15 Back Pack

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 08:15 AM

@fred johnson, according to this section of the GTA, the SMs signature and other signatures not only indicate a completion of requirements, it signifies their support that the application and associated materials are complete AND they support the candidacy. At that point the BOR is just reviewing, not passing anything. Unless it is a disputed BOR then there are other issues and processes.

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#16 eagle90

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 08:27 AM

One of the questions in the workbook is something like "What changes did you make in your project from the start to finish?"  I would have the scout  tell the story about the aborted project and the change to the new, successful project.


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#17 qwazse

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 08:44 AM

One of the questions in the workbook is something like "What changes did you make in your project from the start to finish?"  I would have the scout  tell the story about the aborted project and the change to the new, successful project.

When you think about it, if under the same beneficiary a boy said, "Because of border disputes, I couldn't build a bridge across the ravine, instead I was requested to built a guard tower. So I changed plans ..." The bridge-planning hours would count.

 

But, it the boy said "I couldn't build a bridge for community Y, so I built a wall for community X ,,,"  The bridge-planning hours would not count.

 

:confused:


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#18 Col. Flagg

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 09:10 AM

 

When you think about it, if under the same beneficiary a boy said, "Because of border disputes, I couldn't build a bridge across the ravine, instead I was requested to built a guard tower. So I changed plans ..." The bridge-planning hours would count.

 

But, it the boy said "I couldn't build a bridge for community Y, so I built a wall for community X ,,,"  The bridge-planning hours would not count.

 

:confused:

 

 

But the requirement is to give leadership to a project. The project can have two parts, the bridge (not completed for reasons out of his control) and the wall (which was completed). Not sure why he wouldn't include both. There's nothing in the workbook or other BSA docs that I can find that would preclude doing this, so why not include them?


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#19 Col. Flagg

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 09:26 AM

Sorry to post again, but there are two issues that keep bugging me about this thread. First, is whether or not to count the hours spent on the first project. Second is this whole concept of "failing" a Scout in the BOR.

 

On the first point (two projects for one requirement) I can't find anything in the materials that specifically address this issue, though I think I have found a possible smoking gun. Also, like @fred johnson, I would have sworn that I read somewhere that the BOR could "unapprove" a project as meeting Requirement 5.

 

In looking for proof one way or the other, I came across this in the Eagle Workbook. The quote below in blue I believe would apply here for issue of two projects.

 

Evaluating the Project After Completion (See the Guide to Advancement, topic 9.0.2.13)
 
Eagle Scout projects must be evaluated primarily on impact—the extent of benefit to the religious institution, school, or
community, and on the leadership provided by the candidate. There must also be evidence of planning and development. This is
not only part of the requirement, but relates to our motto to, “Be Prepared.” However, in determining if a project meets
requirement 5, reviewers must not require more planning and development than necessary to execute the project. These
elements must not overshadow the project itself, as long as the effort was well led, and resulted in an otherwise worthy outcome
acceptable to the beneficiary.
 
There may be instances where, upon its completion, the unit leader or project beneficiary chooses not to approve a project. One
or the other may determine, for example, that modifications were so significant that the extent of the service or impact of the
project was insufficient to warrant approval. The candidate may be requested to do more work or even start over with another
project. He may choose to meet these requests, or he may decide —if he believes his completed project worthy and in
compliance—to complete his Eagle Scout Rank Application and submit his project workbook without final approval. He must be
granted a board of review should he request it. If it is thought a unit board may not provide a fair hearing, a board of review
under disputed circumstances may be initiated according to the Guide to Advancement, topic 8.0.3.2.

 

 

This quote is from the workbook's Final Report section. I provides for the Beneficiary and the SM to approve the completion of the requirements. Once that is done, no one should be able to take away credit for the completion of the requirement. Disallowing the completed project during a EBOR as being "appropriate" would do just that, and is on its face, not allowed.

 

In my opinion, this Eagle Scout service project meets Eagle Scout requirement 5, as stated on page 4 of this workbook.

 

 

Or is there other documentation within BSA that contradicts this position?

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#20 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 10:00 AM

I'm going by memory and 3rd party story. We had one Eagle who did so poorly on his project, the beneficiary cancelled it mid project, hired a contractor to fix the problem, and no longer allows Boy Scouts to do projects on their property. 

 

I know this problem was in his book as part of the process, especially the mistakes he made, and what he learned from it. And he did another project to completion.


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