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911-Need Help--Charter on Hold


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#1 beaglelover

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:27 PM

Sorry, I know I have been posting a lot of drama stuff, but this one has us really worried.

 

Just learned from the CM that our recharter was kicked back from national and put "on hold".  Apparently the DE (which just switched over in Sept/Oct) did not file stuff he/she was supposed to and may have fudged some numbers.  We are not the only one on hold, apparently 5 troops and 20 pack in the district are as well.  In addition, apparently there were several problems with our individual charter, including have more scouts on record than reported on the recharter.

 

No one seems to really know what this means.  We have been told we can not doing anything that is official BSA stuff since we no longer have insurance.  Can we still meet?  Have Den meetings?  Can the boys still earn the ranks they have been working hard for?  We are supposed to go to a Council Camp in 3 weeks, and have been told we cannot register as a pack, can we go as individuals?  

 

Council has said they will only work with 1 person per unit to get this straightened out, so we can't even get information to tell our parents.  The person for our pack is the CC, who did not even feel it necessary to tell the DL this last night when we turned in our payments for camp.  

 

Has anybody had this happen before?  Are our boys going to be able to get the badges they have worked so hard for since Sept.?  


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#2 David CO

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 02:09 PM

I don't know what this means either.  But I do understand the instructions you were given.  Don't do anything.  


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#3 qwazse

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 02:35 PM

Our Crew and Pack had a near miss this year because our church was slow nominating a new charter organization representative (COR). Worse, the dear lady did not have a computer, so she had to jump through numerous hoops with the help of multiple people.

 

If you meet and there is an accident, the liability is entirely on the organization providing the space. BSA provides no insurance.

Likewise, with activities, the liability is entirely on the scout and his parents.

If your scouts are not officially on the roster of a pack, they cannot register at scout camps.

If your scouts' awards have not been purchased, they cannot be ordered.

 

There's nothing stopping parents from helping boys do activities to qualify for awards. But until this mess is straightened out, the best you can do is make up I-owe-you notes for them.

 

Whatever caused this bulk mess should be fixable quickly. Any troop who has scouts up for Eagle will keep a fire lit.

The question to ask your CM: does the CC have a pulse?


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#4 Col. Flagg

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 03:14 PM

@qwazse, if there's no charter then aren't the boys and adults not really considered members of BSA, so they cannot really work on any advancement?

 

I would expect BSA to have some sort of provisional status, no?


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#5 NJCubScouter

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 03:27 PM

Our troop went through this, and we followed the instructions we were given - no meetings, no camping trips, no nothing. Fortunately it was clear what the problem was, and it was resolved in about 10 days. I won't say it was resolved easily, because a new SM had to be drafted on the spot. But it was done, and we only missed one meeting and I don't think any camping trips were missed.

I would take it very seriously. Whatever has to be done has to be done and in the meantime I would not play games with doing things as "individuals". And of course, the more the time goes by the more there is a risk that some boys/families drift away.  If your CC dawdles in doing what they need to do to get this straightened out, your pack is at real risk of disappearing permanently, so if that is the case I think someone needs to go to the CO and try to get a new CC appointed.


Edited by NJCubScouter, 10 March 2017 - 03:30 PM.

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#6 CalicoPenn

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 04:21 PM

I suspect I'm reading this in a completely different way than most.

 

Given the scope of the troubles you've reported - 20 packs and 5 troops - this is not a unit issue at all but a Council governance issue.  Based on what you have written, it appears that the DE may have been fudging membership numbers across the board and s/he's just got caught.  Unfortunately, that affects all of your charters. 

 

You might have more people "on record" than what you reported in your recharter, it could very well mean that you reported your numbers accurately in your recharter document but that someone added "members" during data entry in to the computer system and didn't think anyone would compare it to the recharter document.

 

What is even more unfortunate is that no, you can't register for Council Camp if this has not been straightened out by that time, no your Cubs can't advance (they can work on them at home for when you're charter troubles are taken care of - but you can't go to Council to pick up any awards), you can't have any den or pack meetings or activities - you're in limbo.

 

Your CC either needs to get really active on this right now or get the COR or the head of the chartering organization involved.  The COR should be contacting the President of the Council and the Scout Executive and raising holy heck - as should the representatives of the other 24 units in the district that are affected.

 

Mistakes can happen with charters - but to have this many units in one district have this many issues is way beyond volunteers. 


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#7 qwazse

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 04:30 PM

@qwazse, if there's no charter then aren't the boys and adults not really considered members of BSA, so they cannot really work on any advancement?

 

I would expect BSA to have some sort of provisional status, no?

The specific words to me were, "Units without complete Charters will be “dropped” on March 1 – meaning you lose insurance coverage and can’t process advancements."

 

I figure with cubs, we're not gonna stop enthused parents from doing family activities with their boys. Life goes on, play catch-up later.

 

If a boy scout demonstrates mastery of a square knot while playing Zelda at the PL's house one day while the charter is suspended, are you really gonna invalidate it because the PL's signature date in his book was during the (hopefully brief) suspension period? Same thing if a boy who didn't get the memo has MB sign a blue card in that period.

 

Once the suspension's lifted, you have the SMC, and order the awards. Call the registrar about being allowed to back-date the the big ones.

 

There's one worst-case scenario that you may have to call in some favors on. If you have a 17.99 year old Eagle who needs to do his SMC, git 'er done. Let your pro's (i.e., the SE and the registrar) know you're doing it. Maybe even call an SM in a troop from another district to back you up on it. If your council is blowing smoke about it, send the boy to HQ with his Eagle paperwork and a signed transfer application + 1$ and have him earn that bird under the auspices of that other troop.

 

Heck, if someone asked if I could bail them out in this circumstance, I'd drive the scout there myself and wouldn't leave until they printed his "new crew" membership card. (Then, of course, I'd give him an adult leader application and tell him to take Venturing YPT the next day!)


Edited by qwazse, 10 March 2017 - 04:33 PM.

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#8 NJCubScouter

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:00 PM

I agree with qwase that "advancements will not be processed" does not mean the same thing as "all work done on advancements during the period of lapse/suspension/whatever are null and void."  I do not think the latter is true.  First of all, unless the unit is without a charter for many months (maybe the end of the next charter period?  But I'm not sure) when the recharter finally does occur, there should be no "break in service", so everything that was signed off during that period is "validated."  I would NOT rely on that for a last-minute Eagle candidate whose 18th birthday falls during the "lapse" period; I would recommend some sort of emergency action as qwasze suggests.  But this thread is about a Cub Scout pack.  If the pack is rechartered within, say, a couple of months, the kids will get their badges, if maybe a little delayed.  I don't think the BSA really cares much about the timing of these badges with the exception of the Arrow of Light, which impacts on eligibility to join a troop for a boy who is not yet 11 and has not completed fifth grade.  (On the Eagle application, the only Cub Scout advancement that is mentioned is Arrow of Light, and they don't even ask for the date.)

 

But all this assumes that the charter problem is resolved within a few months.  I'm going to make a guess here, that once the school year ends and there is still no charter, meaning that the boys are not registered as Cub Scouts, and they have not completed their requirements for Wolf, Bear, etc., someone could raise an issue about whether they can ever actually earn those badges.  Although, as I said before, by that time people have probably drifted away and you may not have a pack anymore, if and when the paperwork is finally completed.


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#9 Back Pack

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:27 PM

If you don't have a valid membership how can you work on requirements? Doesn't it say you need to be a member of a troopmor pack?
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#10 Stosh

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:03 PM

If you don't have a valid membership how can you work on requirements? Doesn't it say you need to be a member of a troopmor pack?

 

I don't think it is appropriate to penalize the boys because of the actions of the adults.  I would honor any "advancement" done during the period while the adults get their act together and/or quickly register the boys in a neighboring troop/pack and then for $1 transfer them back once the paperwork gets done.  It might be a little bit of extra work, but as the unit leader, I would do everything in my power to make sure the boys are not harmed by the mistakes of the adults.  Even a DL can register his boys in a neighboring pack until the smoke clears.  One does what one has to for the boys.  After all this is what the program is all about and a good leadership lesson for the boys is the example set by the caring adults.


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#11 Back Pack

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:06 PM

I get not punishing the boy. But is it fair to all the others that follow the rules?

I get a brief charter interuptis, but more than a month? At some point fairness comes in to play.
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#12 Stosh

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:18 PM

I'm not at all suggesting one not follow the rules, but if the adults aren't following the rules, it might behoove another adult to apply problem solving leadership to keep the others from being hurt in the process.  There's nothing in the rules that one has to stay with a sinking ship.  Register in a valid unit and keep the integrity of the boy's advancement in tact.  That's not breaking any rules and is fair to everyone involved.

 

Just remember, the box is often bigger than what we think it is.


Edited by Stosh, 12 March 2017 - 03:20 PM.

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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#13 qwazse

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:46 PM

If you don't have a valid membership how can you work on requirements? Doesn't it say you need to be a member of a troopmor pack?

simple, open a book, master a knot, stop playing video games for 5 minutes, show your PL you did it, PL signs book, done.

Same applies to a cub and his akela.

Sometimes the world looks to you to take the BS out of the BS of A.
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#14 Rick_in_CA

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 05:24 PM

Register in a valid unit and keep the integrity of the boy's advancement in tact.  That's not breaking any rules and is fair to everyone involved.
 
Just remember, the box is often bigger than what we think it is.

I agree with Stosh here. If it looks like the recharter is going to take a while, find a friendly pack with a charter, and see if they would be willing to "host" your pack's members for a while. Register everyone with that pack, and you are good to go until things get sorted out (register a few of your adults as an Assistant Cub Master or Member of Committee with the host pack so you are covered for YPT).


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#15 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 07:23 PM

1) Beaglelover, you are not in a council in NC by any chance? We had 5 units with rechartering issues receive letters and emails with exact verbalize.

 

2)

 

I get not punishing the boy. But is it fair to all the others that follow the rules?

I get a brief charter interuptis, but more than a month? At some point fairness comes in to play.

 

 

In some cases, the Scouts do not know that the unit's adults have not followed through with the charter.  We had a case where a charter was lapsed, and a Scout went for his Eagle. The district did not penalize him by  not allowing him to have his EBOR. But I know the completed paperwork was on hold until the issues was resolved.


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