Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

Should BSA develop a "Classic Scouting"


  • Please log in to reply
111 replies to this topic

#101 TAHAWK

TAHAWK

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2816 posts

Posted 06 April 2017 - 10:35 PM

I've seen it taught. Most choose to ignore it.

No official BSA syllabus teaches it - not for decades.  Not in the handbooks for Scoutmasters or Patrol leaders.  Aspects are mentioned in passing, but more time is given in SM basic to the relatively unimportant "three types of patrols" as is given (absolutely none) to the critical annual patrol planning conference.

 

You may get a course at a "University of Scouting" or "Baden-Powell Institute"  - if someone wants to do it.  See, the Patrol method -- our most important method - is effectively optional.

 

Think I'm wrong?  List all the official consequences for the adults if they refuse to allow the Patrol Method.  Must be consequences for ignoring our most important method, right?

 

We'll wait.


  • 1

#102 Back Pack

Back Pack

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 476 posts

Posted 07 April 2017 - 06:42 AM

That's my point. In my area we have an old Scouter that teaches PM. Most who take the course simply think it's nice. Many never try to implement it. Despite getting a road map on how to. I wish BSA would teach it.
  • 1

#103 TAHAWK

TAHAWK

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2816 posts

Posted 07 April 2017 - 08:12 AM

BSA - here and there- still says all the right the words, as it says many other things.  But there is no pressure, recognition, condemnation, reward - nothing to create a positive or negative incentive - nothing to show it means it.

 

The "funny" thing is that the few troops who use it here have robust membership, fantastic outdoor program, service projects to be proud of, and good advancement that comes out of their program.  They supply the lion's share of district and council event SPLs and NYKT staff.

 

 

They are greatly admired - but from a "safe distance."  I mean, you wouldn't want to actually do that, would ya'?  Meaning what you say and doing what you say would be dangerous stuff !


  • 0

#104 qwazse

qwazse

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6405 posts

Posted 07 April 2017 - 08:48 AM

RT break-out discussed "boy-led" last night. I think it was a fairly frank discussion with nobody feeling like there was a party-line they needed to tow. A venturing crew joined us, and I was pleased that one of the young women felt comfortable enough to chimed in on how they operate with their advisor.

 

The good news: A wide spectrum of approaches. Some scouters have fully boy-run CoH's; others, the boys make presentations to pitch their preferred "big-trip" for everyone else to vote on; others are diligent at herding adults away from the scouts and allowing "controlled failure."  My mantra of the pinnacle scouting experience being hiking and camping independently with your mates got lots of nods of agreement. Other scouters had some very good visions like the ones mentioned above.

 

The bad news: Only in a minority of troops does the SPL govern who has the floor at all times. Very few scouters grew up with a CO who granted a room for each patrol and a troop where adults were rarely seen and less often heard. The ideal of 300' separation between each patrol and the adults was alien to all. One seasoned scouter capitulated to the "good reasoning of the times" that independent patrol overnights were a thing of the past.


  • 0

#105 Eagledad

Eagledad

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 5851 posts

Posted 07 April 2017 - 09:09 AM

As the local patrol method activist, I have always blamed National's lack of training for the lack of patrol method in the districts. But the problem is worse than that, Patrol method is just not part of National's concept for a successful scout program.

When we humans have to provide activities with little or no guidance, we develop those activities using reasoning based from our own personal knowledge and life experiences. I used to teach boy run and many adults just wouldn't, or couldn't, comprehend the idea of developing character by giving boys the independence to make choices for how they participated in their small community we call patrol. Adults are driven by ambition and the ambitions of parents is giving their kids the best advantages. Everyone here will probably agree that the first question about your troop by visiting parents is something to do with advancement. That is not typically the first order of priority on their son's list. But don't misunderstand, parents are being normal, it's the patrol method program that doesn't fit in the normal way of things.

The only way to push a trend is to provide overwhelming information to sway adults away from their personal Instincts on the subject. For that to happen, direction has to come from the top and and have support all the way don't to the program users. I don't see National showing that kind of support for patrol method.

Our troop started at its inception a very traditional patrol method program only because the two main adult leaders who started the troop had traditional patrol method experiences as youths. There was no support at the district or council levels for our out-of-norm program. They did, however, start to show an interest when membership grew from 16 to 60 in three years. However, outsiders looking in still had a hard time believing in the simple concept of patrol method. We kept getting pressure to conform to Nationals 3 patrol structure (NSP, Regular Patrols, Venture Patrols) AND also divide off the oldest Scouts into an adventure crew. Being open minded, we tested the waters of some of the suggestions, only revert back when they didn't prove out.

We helped and guided anyone who wanted a program like ours, but that is a rough road for any unit without district or council support. Especially when the adults don't have any patrol method experience as a foundation for their decisions. Without experiences and knowledge, adults tend to fall back on their parental instincts of giving their kids a program that apeals to adults. Advancement based.

I'm not saying it's hopeless, but patrol method is a lot of work. Of course the rewards are worth it, but looking back, I realize a patrol method program requires some passion to maintain positive momentum.

I believe scouting forums can be a great source of support for adults who want a patrol method troop, but im seeing more and more skepticism and resistance these days from even experienced Scoutmasters. The traditional patrol method program is becoming more rare every day. I often wonder if my sons are the last generation to experience it. That being said, I hope to be a source for patrol method for a good while. I still have the passion, and I guess that's why of love this scouting stuff.

Barry
  • 3

"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#106 Col. Flagg

Col. Flagg

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1062 posts

Posted 07 April 2017 - 09:59 AM

I have thought about this for a while. From my experience, I see the implementation of the Patrol Method (or lack thereof) being a function of a few things:

  1. Exposure: The use of the Patrol Method is also tied to one's experience in Scouting, and by that I mean the SM and other key leaders. If they were exposed to it as a Scout they are more likely to use it. If not, they really don't know what it is or how to use it.
     
  2. Training: Let's assume they know what it is, can they implement it? Do they know how to identify what phase along the Patrol Method continuum they are on? How do the get to full PM implementation from where they are? As @TAHAWK points out, there is no standard BSA training on this subject. @backpack may have some in his area, but it seems more grassroots than anything.
     
  3. Pride: I use the word "pride" but I really mean "ego" or worse, "existence justification". By this I mean that the adults leading the program actually WANT to be adult-led because it's fun for them. They LIKE being in charge and running things and don't want to give up the reigns.
     
  4. Frustration: The last group I see are the adults who want to use the Patrol Method, but they are impatient. They can be bothered waiting for the boys to come to their decision, they want immediate action. They get frustrated when new leaders are elected and you have to train them all over again to lead. They think the Patrol Method is the final destination, rather than something that is cyclical. Just because a Scout understands the PM does not mean when he first becomes a PL he's going to execute the PM perfectly.

As folks have stated here many times, even if BSA came up with an excellent PM training module, and resurrected Bill Hilcourt to teach it, adults will pick and choose what they want to use and discard the rest. Sad.


  • 0

#107 Cambridgeskip

Cambridgeskip

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 766 posts

Posted 07 April 2017 - 11:58 AM

A quick chip in from me.... one of my ASLs who's been doing this stuff for over 50 years has a great saying, he reckons the job of the scout leader is to make themselves redundant. A quite simple way of describing of what we should be aiming for.
  • 3

#108 MattR

MattR

    Member

  • Members
  • 935 posts

Posted 07 April 2017 - 10:28 PM

Very good points by all, regarding the lack of patrol method.

 

But ... go back and read the bottom line of the last bunch of posts (other than Skip's)  It's kind of like a dysfunctional patrol. Everyone knows why it won't work but nobody seems to believe it will work.

 

I certainly don't have an answer but you guys are in a rut. What would you do if your PLC sounded this negative?

 

You have an advantage over a new PL in that you have a lot of experience. And maybe that's also a disadvantage. Didn't someone say it's harder to change the older scouts because they're set in their ways? So what's that mean if you're, like, older than dirt?

 

One thing you have going for you is you have the same passion as a new PL. You believe in scouts. If you had a new PL or a new parent come and ask for help you'd get all excited. Be that.

 

Maybe you guys have answers but you just don't see them yet.

 

So, think young. Be positive. Believe in it. Help each other out. Have fun.


  • 0

#109 Stosh

Stosh

    BSA Heretic

  • Members
  • 11971 posts

Posted 08 April 2017 - 06:40 AM

Being bummed out about any thing is the first stages of burnout.  Too many people just blow it off as a bad day and grit their teeth and press on through.  Nope, not gonna work.

 

One of the reasons for my longevity in anything is it is valuable and exciting for everyone involved.  If it's not, move on to something that inspires passion instead of sapping it..... and heaven forbid you are not the one being the wet-blanket for others.  It's contagious.


  • 0

Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#110 qwazse

qwazse

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6405 posts

Posted 08 April 2017 - 08:01 AM

@MattR - I was going to post that I didn't intend my report to end on the negative. The overall positive was that our rountable commish was pushing everyone to put their cards on the table. So, we all got to hear how far each was taking or wanted to take the definition of youth leadership. The fact that a young woman on her first visit felt comfortable enough to be part of our conversation shows that we've got scouters who will listen.

 

The challenge, I suppose, is dealing with all of the folks who don't come to round-tables or committee meetings. They are the ones who need hear SM/ASMs set boundaries for the adults.

 

It seems that "dumping and running" was the first instinct for folks my parent's age. Parents my age and younger were preached "watch like a hawk."


Edited by qwazse, 08 April 2017 - 08:03 AM.

  • 0

#111 TAHAWK

TAHAWK

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2816 posts

Posted 08 April 2017 - 07:58 PM

The "youth-led troop" is one aspect of the Patrol Method and naturally follows from the Scout-led patrols which plan the troop program to be led by the leadership team (PLC) headed by the SPL.  If program centers in the Scout-led patrol, where BSA still says it belongs (when BSA bureaucrats are not contradicting BSA's own words), the Scout-led troop follows as the night the day.

 

Stosh, I owe too much to Scouting to give up simply because things seem to need change.  I can try to change things where I am and support those trying to change things nationally.  My Grandmother had a sampler in a frame on her wall.  Her grandmother had sewn it.  "And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."   


  • 0

#112 Stosh

Stosh

    BSA Heretic

  • Members
  • 11971 posts

Posted 09 April 2017 - 07:03 AM

 Everyone has their style.  What works for some doesn't work for others.  The hierarchical management style has worked for years for some out there.  And the collaborative service style works for others.  It's not an issue of what's right and wrong, it's an issue of what works for you and what works for the next guy.  

 

I've worked with scout groups, community youth groups, and faith-based youth groups.  They all work differently under different expectations.  A one-size fits all doesn't work. 

 

I have a huge billboard I drive by every day.  The current message is "Boys & Girls Club a program of character and leadership development." and a phone number.  The phone number is not for the council office.  Saw a pick truck parked in the restaurant parking lot last Thursday with the huge logo emblazoned on the door K.A.M.O - Kids and Mentors Outdoors. 

 

Youth Baseball Association runs from June through July.  Fall sports at the schools starts in August.  There goes the summer.

 

Like the song in the musical "Gypsy" says, "Ya gotta have a gimmick."

 

What's BSA's gimmick other than everyone doing their own thing?

 

We as adults need to focus a bit more on the purpose of scouting rather than sitting around wondering who's running the show.


  • 0

Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


IPB Skin By Virteq