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Should BSA develop a "Classic Scouting"


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#41 NJCubScouter

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 04:22 PM

1) not many of the adults in the program were either not brought up in it so they have no reference


I'm guessing there is one more "not" in that phrase than you intended there to be. Those extra and/or missing "not"s will get you every time.
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#42 Stosh

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 04:23 PM

I'm guessing there is one more "not" in that phrase than you intended there to be. Those extra and/or missing "not"s will get you every time.

Too many nots, got all tied up.


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#43 SSScout

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 04:43 PM

1953  Brit First Class Scout Test:   http://www.thedump.s.../firsttests.pdf

 

Can't find a web copy of the BSA First class requirements from , oh, say 1960's when Morse Code and signaling was still required.  Seems to my poor fevered memory there was more "campcraft" stuff required. 

 

Time required between ranks,   must be First Class to begin earning MBs,   ummmm.


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#44 Stosh

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 05:07 PM

I remember Morse Code, it was a requirement for 2nd Class.  It held me back for quite some time.  Just couldn't get into it very well.  Later in Civil Air Patrol, I used it a lot, I was a radio operator for search and rescue.


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#45 Rick_in_CA

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:05 PM

1953  Brit First Class Scout Test:   http://www.thedump.s.../firsttests.pdf
 
Can't find a web copy of the BSA First class requirements from , oh, say 1960's when Morse Code and signaling was still required.  Seems to my poor fevered memory there was more "campcraft" stuff required. 
 
Time required between ranks,   must be First Class to begin earning MBs,   ummmm.

Wow, now that is what BP mean when he said "first class scout"!

 

Of course if we tried this today, we would be sued and then arrested.

 

Just this requirement alone would send multiple people to jail and get CPS involved:

(b) Go on foot, alone or with another Scout, a 24-hour journey of at least 14 miles. In the course of the journey he must cook his own meals, one of which must include meat, over a wood fire in the open; find his camp site and camp for the night. He must carry out any instructions given by the Examiner as to things to be observed en route, and make a log of his journey. He must hand to the Examiner within one week of his return his completed log together with any rough notes made on the journey. A Sea Scout may do this journey partly by water and partly by land - at least 5 miles of the 14 being done on foot. This test should be taken’ last.

 

It's only a matter of time before the lifesaving merit badge replaces actual rescue techniques with "demonstrate how to summon help" and "discuss the dangers of trying to rescue a drowning person".


Edited by Rick_in_CA, 09 March 2017 - 07:05 PM.

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#46 RememberSchiff

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 08:30 PM

I remember Morse Code, it was a requirement for 2nd Class.  It held me back for quite some time.  Just couldn't get into it very well.  Later in Civil Air Patrol, I used it a lot, I was a radio operator for search and rescue.

I think you meant 1st Class which had a Signaling requirement, either semaphore (flags) or Morse Code. I was 2nd class for a long time. :o


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#47 Stosh

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 08:55 PM

No, I finally passed Morse Code and got 2nd Class.  I was disappointed in the whole process that I left scouting soon after that.


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#48 EmberMike

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 09:24 PM

If they really feel that a classical scouting program would fail on its own, the liberals ought to give it 100% support, and let it sink or swim.

 

It's really unnecessary to try and make this a political issue. 


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#49 David CO

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 09:48 PM

It's really unnecessary to try and make this a political issue. 

 

The OP chose to put the topic in Issues & Politics.  That makes it fair game.

 

Besides, it really is a partisan political issue.  It isn't the conservatives who have been forcing all these membership changes on us.  Liberals own it.  


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#50 Stosh

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 11:42 PM

David and I don't always see eye-to-eye on a lot of issues, but he does make a fair point.  There aren't that many "conservatives" that I know are who are in the PC camp.  I would think that from the number of posts I have made over the past 10 years, being PC hasn't been one of my forte's and promoting a historical basis for Scouting does seem to separate the wheat from the chaff during the discussions.

 

There's a few of us over-the-hill passe folks here on the forum that had done well at dragging our heels with all these "changes" going on and yet in the back of my mind, it kinda saddens me that boys today will never know what I know having been a scout back in the 50's and 60's.  I didn't particularly have a good experience in Scouting, I had a very wide spectrum of school, church and community activities I was involved in, but Scouting was the one that had a positive impact in my background that played a role in the 45+ years of working with youth during my adulthood.  I don't know if it still has that ability for our young boys of today or not.  It will be too bad if it doesn't.


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Stosh

 

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#51 DuctTape

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 05:03 AM

The issues being discussed as classical scouting, are the focus on the outdoors, the requirements etc... These are not the membership changes nor about being "pc". Discussing camping requirements and other outdoor program issues, need not delve into politics.
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#52 Pale Horse

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 05:18 AM

If they really feel that a classical scouting program would fail on its own, the liberals ought to give it 100% support, and let it sink or swim.

 

Interestingly enough, the younger generation (millennials, especially the ones you would call "liberals") are far more environmentally active and into hiking, camping and outdoor activities compared to most of the Gen X or Late Boomers I know, Liberal or Conservative.

 

But agree that this topic is regarding Traditional Scouting and not political ideology.


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#53 David CO

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:07 AM

The issues being discussed as classical scouting, are the focus on the outdoors, the requirements etc... These are not the membership changes nor about being "pc". Discussing camping requirements and other outdoor program issues, need not delve into politics.

 

Since RememberSchiff seems to agree with you, I will concede the point and bow out.  

 

Perhaps a moderator could move the discussion to Advancement, since the originator of the thread doesn't want to talk about issues and politics.

 

To the moderator, please delete my posts on this thread.


Edited by David CO, 10 March 2017 - 07:12 AM.

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#54 Back Pack

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:29 AM

Interestingly enough, the younger generation (millennials, especially the ones you would call "liberals") are far more environmentally active and into hiking, camping and outdoor activities compared to most of the Gen X or Late Boomers I know, Liberal or Conservative.
 
But agree that this topic is regarding Traditional Scouting and not political ideology.


And yet they are far less likely to volunteer their time for their kids, as evidenced by the plethora of older adults running Packs and troops.
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#55 Back Pack

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:34 AM

The OP chose to put the topic in Issues & Politics.  That makes it fair game.
 
Besides, it really is a partisan political issue.  It isn't the conservatives who have been forcing all these membership changes on us.  Liberals own it.

One need look no further than the second post to see the first refence to "changes". I too took the "changes" to be every change that's been made, both program and policy. You're not the only person who feels that way. Don't be bullied off.
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#56 Pale Horse

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:35 AM

And yet they are far less likely to volunteer their time for their kids, as evidenced by the plethora of older adults running Packs and troops.

 

Most Millennials, are too young to have kids, especially those of Cub Scouting age, much less in Boy Scouts.  

 

I imagine changing the admission standards to be more inclusive could be seen as BSA trying to appeal to this future generation of parents.


Edited by Pale Horse, 10 March 2017 - 07:36 AM.

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#57 RememberSchiff

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:43 AM

Issues and Politics seemed a more flexible (rules-wise) forum for a highly opinionated discussion about whatever Classic (traditional) scouting might be in terms of membership, advancement, leadership, lawyering, Methods and Aims, reverence (DRP), volunteer quality, safety-concerns, uniform, role of scouting, visibility of scouting...

 

I don't see that the changes were internally driven by politics, but I could be wrong. Who knows who is on the Executive Committees? I see money (ligitation, donation, salaries), publicity, and just poor leadership as driving factors.

 

Please more substance and less labeling in these posts.

 

Anyway that was my thinking. If I had to honestly label my opinion, I would say non-caffeinated. :sleep:


Edited by RememberSchiff, 10 March 2017 - 07:49 AM.

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#58 Back Pack

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:52 AM

Most Millennials, are too young to have kids, especially those of Cub Scouting age, much less in Boy Scouts.  
 
I imagine changing the admission standards to be more inclusive could be seen as BSA trying to appeal to this future generation of parents.


Odd. Because most of the places I've looked say demographers and researchers typically use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years. So that would make them plenty old enough to not only have kids, but to have kids of Scouting age.

The problem is you have to move out of one's parent's basement to do that.
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#59 EmberMike

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 08:35 AM

The OP chose to put the topic in Issues & Politics.  That makes it fair game.

 

 

So any topic in Issues and Politics can turn into a debate over government and/or social politics? I thought this was a scouting forum, and this section was about the issues and politics of scouting. 

 

I personally know plenty of liberals who favor a traditional back-to-basics scouting program that emphasizes outdoor skills and bushcraft. Government and social politics have no bearing on this subject. 


Edited by EmberMike, 10 March 2017 - 08:38 AM.

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#60 blw2

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 08:36 AM

I think a traditional program would struggle even more than the modern program to keep kids interested, especially over the long stretch of time many kids are in this thing from 1st grade through high school.

 

There's a traditional scouting program in the US. I'm not sure what kids think of it but their membership isn't exactly swelling these days. 

fair point.... the never ending repeat of requirements and activities could really bore a person.

Just the other night they the last troop meeting.... "they" decided to set up first aid stations.  Not sure who's idea it was, but I know "they" have a renewed focus on trying to get the younger scouts moving along with their advancement...

anyway, I'll admit to not actually watching what they were doing... I got called out of the room for something... but I can make a really incredibly safe bet on what it was like...no doubt you all can too

and even though I never discussed it with my son, I'm willing to bet he was bored with it.

how many times can you sit through halfhearted "talks" about wrapping an ankle, or applying a pressure bandage...that may or may not actually have some half hearted attempt at "hands-on" practice

I know that in scouts along, son has done the very same thing more times than i can count, and he's only been with the troop about a year.... several times in cubs...den meetings doing requirements a few times, twice at webelos akela weekend events while he was a cub, a few more times at cuboree type events, several times with the troop, 1st aid merit badge at summer camp last year, maybe at a U of Scouting class, those countless times at work for various annual 1st aid and responder courses through the years, during dive master training years ago, and once during IOLS (oh wait, those last few were me and not him, sorry...things are getting blurry..  :confused: )

 

 

One of the biggest problems I see with the classic scouting emphasis is that 1) not many of the adults in the program were either not brought up in it so they have no reference and 2) aren't outdoors people in the first place.  It is as if the "leaders" of today would have a difficult time getting through the FC requirements without first having extensive training just for them.

 

Other than starting the grill with lighter fluid, how many people know how to start a fire?  Without a GPS, how many could find their way using a paper map? How many know basic first aid? etc.Knots and lashings?  No clue.  Camping in a tent?  Yeah, right.

 

i was just recently thinking along similar lines for the context of this discussion....

summing things up, and taking from something Clarke Green said in one of his podcasts..... we adult scouters are in the opportunity business.... bringing opportunity to scouts for adventure and chances to lead.

Many scouters are like me...I've done a fair bit of adventuresome stuff in my day (flying airplanes, sailplanes, hang gliders, some backpacking, mountain biking)... but the majority is really tame stuff.... plop camping stuff, day tip paddling excursions, day hikes.... and even though I'd love to do more of that stuff now, both on my own and with scouts, real life gets in the way and there is only so much time......and add to that all the other reasons.... the program has been stripped in many ways for real adventure


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