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BSA Folds Again


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#41 NJCubScouter

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 05:17 PM

As soon as one opens the flood gates, it is only a matter of time before BSA leadership will accept pedophiles because after all, these people love to work with children just like everyone else.

 

Sooner or later, every thread in Issues and Politics ends up in ridiculous analogies like this.


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#42 Stosh

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 05:22 PM

In New Jersey that's actually not how it works. Self-identifying gender is even allowed on a NJ drivers license. 

 

So in this case, in this state, yes indeed the gender is what Joe and his parents say it is. 

 

In my state it is illegal to sell butter produced outside the United States.  After all does anyone know what is going on in the food production beyond the scope of the FDA?  Or Wild Alaskan Salmon, a product of China (yes, that's what the label said),

 

Sooner or later, every thread in Issues and Politics ends up in ridiculous analogies like this.

 

And it wasn't that long ago that I thought anyone thinking females could be BOY Scout leaders, and the boys could be gay, and the leaders could be gay and now girls can be boy scouts if they lie on their application.  What makes one think this analogy is ridiculous?  Just exactly when will we be getting to the bottom of the slippery slope?


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#43 Back Pack

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 05:45 PM

We're pretty close to the bottom of this slope now.
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#44 Stosh

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 06:04 PM

We're pretty close to the bottom of this slope now.

 

One has yet to reach the limits of the public's imagination.  We're a long ways from being done.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#45 EmberMike

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 09:46 AM

In my state it is illegal to sell butter produced outside the United States.  After all does anyone know what is going on in the food production beyond the scope of the FDA?  Or Wild Alaskan Salmon, a product of China (yes, that's what the label said),

 

 

Ok. But we're not talking about butter or salmon. Were talking about gender identity, and the rules about that are pretty clear in the state in which this case took place. School laws in NJ are similar. The fraud suggestion just doesn't hold up. 


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#46 Col. Flagg

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 09:49 AM

Ok. But we're not talking about butter or salmon. Were talking about gender identity, and the rules about that are pretty clear in the state in which this case took place. School laws in NJ are similar. The fraud suggestion just doesn't hold up

 

Sure it does.

 

If BSA required you to put your gender from your birth certificate on the membership application, and you didn't, you've committed fraud.

 

It would be the same not checking the box if you've ever been arrested and you had been. 

 

It's not situational. It's black and white. You have a birth certificate. It says your sex. You put that on the BSA form. Done.


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#47 NJCubScouter

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 12:42 PM

And it wasn't that long ago that I thought anyone thinking females could be BOY Scout leaders, and the boys could be gay, and the leaders could be gay and now girls can be boy scouts if they lie on their application.  What makes one think this analogy is ridiculous?  Just exactly when will we be getting to the bottom of the slippery slope?

 

I don't think there is a slippery slope here.  I think what we have is a series of decisions on membership policies, and so far the last decision on each issue has been, in my opinion, the correct decision.  (Well, except that I think the policy on openly gay Scouts should have been a matter of local option, as is the new policy on transgender Scouts.)  So I do not think there is any possibility that the BSA is going to allow, for example, known pedophiles to become members.  The BSA has learned how to draw the line between membership decisions that increase the risk of harm to youth members, and those that don't.  So there is no slippery slope.  This is, of course, my opinion, and I understand that your opinion is different.


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#48 CalicoPenn

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:05 PM

In my state it is illegal to sell butter produced outside the United States.  After all does anyone know what is going on in the food production beyond the scope of the FDA?  Or Wild Alaskan Salmon, a product of China (yes, that's what the label said),

 

 

 

 

In your state, it was once illegal to sell margarine - and I'm surprised it's legal to sell butter produced in other states.  Can Wild Alaskan Salmon be a product of China?  Sure it can, if the fish was caught in Alaska, lightly processed (read gutted), frozen and then shipped to China for canning. 


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#49 CalicoPenn

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:08 PM

The same place Reuters quoted maybe?

http://mobile.reuter...e/idUSKBN15F022

 

Reuters got that impression from an interview with a spokeswoman for the BSA - they didn't get it from any documentation that the BSA has - at least none that any of us has seen.


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#50 CalicoPenn

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:23 PM

No, the application asks what IS the person's sex, not what do they think or what they want it to be. 

 

 

 

And that is really the whole bone of contention in a nutshell - the idea that someone who is transgendered really isn't transgendered just because they say they are.  There is a divide between the people who believe that - who believe that what is typed into someone's birth certificate is the way it is, the way it should be, the way it always will be - that it is an immutable fact and the people who believe that what a person feels and says they are should be accepted and valued - that it is not our place to judge.

 

When I became a Cub Scout, no one demanded that my parents produce a birth certificate to prove I was a boy - they took my parent's word for it.  I firmly believe that Joe's parents should be given the exact same respect my parent's received when I joined up.  Joe's parents say their son is a boy, then he's a boy.

 

As for the birth certificate?  I don't really care what it says.  It's a piece of paper - it is JUST a piece of paper - IT IS NOT THE PERSON (all caps for emphasis).  I'm not providing services to a piece of paper, I'm providing services to a person.  I'm not interacting with a piece of paper - I'm interacting with a person. 


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#51 Col. Flagg

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:29 PM

Reuters got that impression from an interview with a spokeswoman for the BSA - they didn't get it from any documentation that the BSA has - at least none that any of us has seen.

 

No. It appears to allude to an actual BSA stance, but not a direct quote. Reuters said "the Boy Scouts of America said". That statement is being attributed to the BSA, NOT something Reuters is getting an "impression" of. Unless they are just crappy journalists and can't write well.

 

"The Boy Scouts of America said on Monday the group would begin accepting transgender boys, bucking its more than a century-old practice of using the gender stated on a birth certificate to determine eligibility."


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#52 Eagledad

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:43 PM

 

 

When I became a Cub Scout, no one demanded that my parents produce a birth certificate to prove I was a boy - they took my parent's word for it.  I firmly believe that Joe's parents should be given the exact same respect my parent's received when I joined up.  Joe's parents say their son is a boy, then he's a boy.

Until Joe and the other boys go to the camp showers together or in a tent changing. Oooops! 

 

I firmly believe everyone involved should be given the respect of choosing to be part of this family's drama, and possibly child abuse.

 

Barry


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"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."


#53 David CO

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:58 PM

When I joined, nobody asked to see my birth certificate, either.  They took my parents word for it too.  The difference is that my parents weren't lying.

 

This girl's parents should not be afforded the same respect.  Her parents are liars.

 

It is one thing to accept a persons word.  It is an entirely different thing to continue to accept a persons word after you learn that they are lying.


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#54 gumbymaster

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 04:39 PM

Unless the membership form actually has the words "from your Birth certificate" (I haven't checked recently) on it; then it would seem to me, for better or worse to default to at a minimum the legally recognized gender.

 

I do not know the details of NJ anti-discrimination law, but based on that they apparently allow a person to indicate their gender of affiliation on the legal document of a driver's license; that would imply that at least there, the parents would not by lying, but in compliance with NJ law when completing the form.

 

If the National had truly cared about this issue, then they should have done a risk assessment, and determined that a change in the wording of the form was necessary.  If they had, than the rights of association would still apply (v. Dale), since they didn't, they are stuck with what they are stuck with.

 

Just because we all think we know what a boy is, does not make it true.  Changing definitions is what the legal profession lives for.

 

The National policy change was not one intended to increase membership - no one should really believe that. It was a legal assessment that they determined they would probably lose (since it would now be discrimination of someone who was already a member) or the "cost" of winning (financially or in the public opinion) was not worth it.

 

It was similar reasoning to the change in adult membership.  The BSA "employs" people (i.e. summer camp staff), and must abide by employment laws; being forced to address it in one space, just made it untenable to fight it in the other.

 

Just because this fire needs a little more gasoline, the full implication is that, legally speaking, your District DE (or camp staff) could be a gay transgendered atheist, and the BSA could not choose to not employ them for only those reasons - regardless of the program the BSA is trying to promote.  And I will admit, that even 25+ years ago when I was hiring my camp staff, when interviewing non-scout applicants; I never would have even thought to ask these questions - nor would I have been allowed to even then.

 

We may or may not like the reality of the times, but, for now, that is the reality we must deal with.  We do not do our scouts a service if we hide the realities of the world from them; or spend all our time trying to apologizing to (or gripe at) them that the program they are stuck with is no where near as good as it was when we were boys.


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#55 David CO

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:23 PM

Just because New Jersey thinks it knows what a boy is, does not make it true.


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#56 NJCubScouter

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:33 PM

Just because this fire needs a little more gasoline...

 

Moderator's Note:      :mad:

 

I do agree with most of your post, but surely this topic needs less fuel, less heat, and less name-calling (that last part was not directed at gumbymaster.)


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#57 EmberMike

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:47 PM

It's not situational. It's black and white. You have a birth certificate. It says your sex. You put that on the BSA form. Done.

 

You're right, it is black and white. And printed in black and white in the state laws that gender identity is to be recognized. 

 

This is also assuming that the mother even checked a gender box on the form, or that she checked "male". Do we know for sure that she did either of those things? All I've read has indicated only that she informed pack leadership that Joe was born female. 

 

We also don't know if anyone in the pack advised her on how to complete the form and which (if any) box to check. This fraud allegation is being thrown around with very little evidence to go on. 

 

And again, even if she did check "male" on the form, in NJ it wouldn't be considered fraudulent if that is how the kid and his family identify him. 


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#58 Col. Flagg

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:51 PM

You're right, it is black and white. And printed in black and white in the state laws that gender identity is to be recognized. 

 

This is also assuming that the mother even checked a gender box on the form, or that she checked "male". Do we know for sure that she did either of those things? All I've read has indicated only that she informed pack leadership that Joe was born female. 

 

We also don't know if anyone in the pack advised her on how to complete the form and which (if any) box to check. This fraud allegation is being thrown around with very little evidence to go on. 

 

And again, even if she did check "male" on the form, in NJ it wouldn't be considered fraudulent if that is how the kid and his family identify him. 

 

You are looking at one law and ignoring all the other applicable laws.


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#59 RememberSchiff

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 06:29 PM


And again, even if she did check "male" on the form, in NJ it wouldn't be considered fraudulent if that is how the kid and his family identify him. 

 

IMO this is the legal conundrum which the local NJ BSA Council found itself in and so NJ Law Against Discrimination applied. Next, National found itself drawn in - could the membership rules vary by state? What if this family moved? And so on.

 

Could BSA Legal have been proactive about advising the BSA to clarify the membership form further, e.g."Gender on Birth Certificate"? IMO, yes.

 

Speaking of BSA Legal, has anyone seen their website www.bsalegal.org lately?

 

Another $0.02


Edited by RememberSchiff, 07 March 2017 - 06:37 PM.

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#60 David CO

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 07:36 PM

Sure, and BSA could have included an explicit anatomical definition of "boy" on the application form, complete with illustrations.  What would that have accomplished?  Nothing!  New Jersey would still claim that a girl meets that definition.


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