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BSA Folds Again


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#21 Peregrinator

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 09:16 AM

But if your not supposed to be a member of that private club, how can you sue for discrimination when at the time the club's rules disallowed your membership.

 

Right, my guess is that the law protects club/association members against changes to the membership rules so, for example, a club couldn't suddenly decide to exclude homosexuals if that would affect anyone who is currently a member.


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#22 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 09:20 AM

Unfortunately in today's litigious society, it is easier to cave in to a lawsuit than to fight it. One company I have friends in told me how they were hit by a multi-million dollar fine by the feds over something that was allowed at the time they did it, but now is now no longer allowed. Fed retroactively put the ban in place, and demanded their money back, plus penalties and interest. Company lawyers  said they could fight it out, and could probably win too. BUT, the entire legal process could take years. While the lawsuit was in the courts, payments would be put into escrow until the case was settled. without the government contract the company would go out of business. So they settled.


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#23 jrush

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:22 AM

Unfortunately in today's litigious society, it is easier to cave in to a lawsuit than to fight it.

 

Well, the issue here is that at face value, the unit violated state antidiscrimination law by accepting the membership, then later kicking the kid out.  So the council had a legal and public perception loser on their hands.  Settle the suit and have a lesson learned. 


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#24 JasonG172

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:27 AM

I saw that this weekend....An apology bribe.  Ridiculous


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#25 Stosh

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 11:34 AM

Well, the issue here is that at face value, the unit violated state antidiscrimination law by accepting the membership, then later kicking the kid out.  So the council had a legal and public perception loser on their hands.  Settle the suit and have a lesson learned. 

 

Did the unit know this was a girl signing up for Cub Scouts?  Did the parents commit fraud on the application?  These are issues that could alter whether or not a person stays a member.  Falsify a job application and even though you were hired, you could be let go on the spot if discrepancies are found. Nothing discriminatory about that at all.  It's called fraud.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#26 Eagle94-A1

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 12:33 PM

Well, the issue here is that at face value, the unit violated state antidiscrimination law by accepting the membership, then later kicking the kid out.  So the council had a legal and public perception loser on their hands.  Settle the suit and have a lesson learned. 

 

It could also be said that the person lied in order to get membership into the program. Thus it could eb said the applicant committed fraud.


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#27 EmberMike

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 01:40 PM

No fraud was committed. The family was open about the fact that Joe was born a girl. 

 

Gotta love the rush to judgement here. Very scout-like. 


Edited by EmberMike, 06 March 2017 - 01:44 PM.

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#28 David CO

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 02:15 PM

No fraud was committed. The family was open about the fact that Joe was born a girl. 

 

Gotta love the rush to judgement here. Very scout-like. 

 

The family was open with the unit, but were they truthful on the application?  It sounds like both the parents and the unit were committing a fraud. 


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#29 Stosh

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 02:36 PM

No fraud was committed. The family was open about the fact that Joe was born a girl. 

 

Gotta love the rush to judgement here. Very scout-like. 

Applying for membership in a male organization using a male organization application when one is not male, can be construed as fraud.  Rush to judgment, just produce a birth certificate and that should be plenty of evidence one way or the other.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#30 JasonG172

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 02:39 PM

just produce a birth certificate and that should be plenty of evidence one way or the other.

Why should they have to?  Our former Prez didn't have to.


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#31 Stosh

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 03:05 PM

Why should they have to?  Our former Prez didn't have to.

 

:) and if one can't provide one, they are in no position to prove it either way.  Where do you think 8 year old kids learn how to get away with anything they want unless they have lessons like this?  :rolleyes:    I just saw someone here in America can prove he is heir to the British monarchy.  Good luck with that.  I'm thinking the British laws are taken more seriously than we on this side of the pond.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#32 Col. Flagg

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 03:11 PM

Well, the issue here is that at face value, the unit violated state antidiscrimination law by accepting the membership, then later kicking the kid out.  So the council had a legal and public perception loser on their hands.  Settle the suit and have a lesson learned. 

 

Was fraud committed by the family? Because the BSA rules in force at the time was to use the sex listed on the birth certificate.

 

Can you have discrimination where fraud was the basis for the membership in the first place?


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#33 EmberMike

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 04:33 PM

Was fraud committed by the family? Because the BSA rules in force at the time was to use the sex listed on the birth certificate.

 

Can you have discrimination where fraud was the basis for the membership in the first place?

 

 

Did it say that in the application? The last version of the app I've seen just asks for gender, not providing any standard by which gender is established. If the parent talked to the pack leaders about it, which it sounds like the mother did in this case, checking the "male" box isn't necessarily fraud. We don't know exactly what was said between the parent and leaders. Maybe she asked for guidance and a leader told her to check the "male" box. 

 

We don't know, hence the "rush to judgement" I mentioned earlier. 


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#34 EmberMike

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 04:34 PM

Applying for membership in a male organization using a male organization application when one is not male, can be construed as fraud.  Rush to judgment, just produce a birth certificate and that should be plenty of evidence one way or the other.

 

Were the parents asked to provide a birth certificate? Was there anything in the application that stated that birth certificate gender must be indicated on the app? 


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#35 Stosh

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 04:52 PM

Were the parents asked to provide a birth certificate? Was there anything in the application that stated that birth certificate gender must be indicated on the app? 

 

No, the application asks what IS the person's sex, not what do they think or what they want it to be. 

 

The application asks what IS the person's address and phone number, not what they think or what they want it to be.

 

As soon as one opens the flood gates, it is only a matter of time before BSA leadership will accept pedophiles because after all, these people love to work with children just like everyone else.

 

While one may think that pedophiles working with children unacceptable, I for one see no difference with that than giving young men free access to young girls' restrooms and locker rooms.

 

It just depends on whether one is the parent of a daughter or not.


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Stosh

 

There's a reason why I don't always answer the phone, doorbell or comments on forums.  :)


#36 EmberMike

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 05:06 PM

No, the application asks what IS the person's sex, not what do they think or what they want it to be. 

 

The application asks what IS the person's address and phone number, not what they think or what they want it to be.

 

 

In New Jersey that's actually not how it works. Self-identifying gender is even allowed on a NJ drivers license. 

 

So in this case, in this state, yes indeed the gender is what Joe and his parents say it is. 


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#37 Back Pack

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 05:10 PM

In New Jersey that's actually not how it works. Self-identifying gender is even allowed on a NJ drivers license. 
 
So in this case, in this state, yes indeed the gender is what Joe and his parents say it is.


I'd like to be a 6'4" Swedish ski instructor. Just because I put it on a form doesn't make it true...or honest.
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#38 NJCubScouter

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 05:10 PM

Because the BSA rules in force at the time was to use the sex listed on the birth certificate.

 

In which book did you find such a rule? 


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#39 NJCubScouter

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 05:12 PM

Were the parents asked to provide a birth certificate? Was there anything in the application that stated that birth certificate gender must be indicated on the app? 

 

I know you didn't ask me, but I would bet a dollar that the answers are No, and No.


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#40 Back Pack

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 05:14 PM

In which book did you find such a rule?


The same place Reuters quoted maybe?

http://mobile.reuter...e/idUSKBN15F022
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